OOTS #1216 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Well.. i did try to educate some non-French people on proper cheese eating, not to avail.
I guess not everyone is ready for this degree of civilisation.

The French wish their cheese was as good as the Dutch's.

Maybe they're not just wooden doors: maybe they're mahogany.

Maaaaahogany.

[Petrocorus]

The French wish their cheese was as good as the Dutch's.

Oh... Peelee... i'm so sorry for you. :smallsad:
What happened? How did you lost your taste buds?

[Peelee]

Oh... Peelee... i'm so sorry for you. :smallsad:
What happened? How did you lost your taste buds?

Big talk from the people who didn't create gouda.

[Petrocorus]

Big talk from the people who didn't create gouda.

OK. I grant you the gouda.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm noticing in panel twelve the ground is being affected my the meld to stone. I'm betting that the dwarves are gone before Redcloack gets back, but as DM I'd rule that true seeing would detect something as the spell doesn't describe you being in a superposition with the stone and you'd either be on the surface or have to have the surface close over you.

I’m afraid to ask.

Kraft singles (one of the most commonly sold brands is technically a "pasteurized prepared cheese product" and contains (in decreasing order) Actual cheese, other dairy products, whey, "Protein concentrate" (probably from whey), multiple kinds of salts (both unhealthy and healthy), Gelatin, extra Lactic acid, food dye, and vitamin D3 (it helps absorption of calcium, which is in both the dairy and the salts).

Look we’ve got over a thousand different types so I’d say that if it came out of a mamal, is somewhat solid and can be used to murder an Englishman, it’s got a decent shot of qualifying.

It can't kill an Englishman, in fact, it could bore an Englishman, which is saying something of a food item.

Well, American Bread isn't bread . It's cake, at least according to the Supreme Court of Ireland.

That one's less embarrassing since the legal question isn't "can this be called bread", but, can this be taxed as a value added item?

Also notably the definitions of "cake" is so broad that adding uranium ore to bread would make it cake,

[Fincher]

Also notably the definitions of "cake" is so broad that adding uranium ore to bread would make it cake,

Thank you! I don't know why no one wants any cake when I make it...

[Peelee]

That one's less embarrassing since the legal question isn't "can this be called bread", but, can this be taxed as a value added item?

Aye. In 99% of "x doesn't legally classify as X!" and "Y is legally classified as X!", it's a case of "because of how X is taxed". Even the most pedantic D&D rules lawyers shudder in fear at the pedantry of tax lawyers.

[drebb]

I know a million people have probably said it already, but I'm willing to bet that's a door the MITD tagged falsely, and Xykon and company are gonna get trounced. LOLOLOL.

[danielxcutter]

Isn't that why potatoes are classified as vegetables?

[WolvesbaneIII]

Team Evil doesn't have MitD. They don't have pre-buffs. They already used spells. And they aren't on their guards (if anything, they'll be rushing into what they expect to be an easy encounter).

The Gate being this door makes the most dramatic sense, though I wouldn't wager on this being the only potential outcome. It gives additional meaning to MitD's actions (his sabotage would have worked). It gives additional consequences to Durkon's rogue operation (it leads Team Evil to the Gate, upping the ante). It can soften up Team Evil enough for the Order to be able to deal with them in a more believable and satisfying way (instead of just "they got great/awful rolls, which imo the fight against Durkula largely was). It actually brings the story to the Gate, which finding is otherwise statistically near impossible and eternally long, and without which we would likely never get to. I find it really hard to imagine satisfying resolutions to many plot hooks if Team Evil never actually makes it to the Gate, and I find it hard to think of a better context for them to stumble upon it.

MITD doesn't have to be with them, if he was painting x's on the doors, and the dungeon isn't cleared out, it will look suspicious.

Though, they could just as easily suspect the order of doing it as a trick to make them second guess themselves.

[Yirggzmb]

Isn't that why potatoes are classified as vegetables?

I mean, the actual definition of "vegetable" is just "plant part that we eat". Any stricter assignment qualifiers are largely cultural in basis.

[Alcore]

Except Liches get a +5 to INT.

And you're confusing INT with WIS.

Intelligence tells you it's raining. Wisdom tells you to open an umbrella.

And Xykon has already shown it's better to look like a fool than actually be a fool.

Actually its +2 (to all attributes) for lich.

He was already old (+2 again) or even venerable (+3 instead). Even if he started at 10 that is 14-15 unless he spent one attribute up on rounding one or both to 16. All three values are respectable values for starting PCs. Cha might be mid to upper 20s unless he is wearing something to push into the 30s.

snip ... was definitely a smart move but I'd say it falls in the category of a clever idea rather than a sign of him being a master planner who makes sure everything goes exactly the way he wants it to through deft manipulation of events.... snip

i feel he is more like the Joker; his plans are maybe two three step things. More like contingencies. He has a goal (though it may of changed after lichdom) and simply meanders towards it.

He has all the time in the world now...

The amount of effort it takes either Redcloak or Xykon to dispel/dismantle said wall: minimal.
I am pretty sure that Greyview could knock it all down in a few rounds. Even quicker with Oona's help.

Buy not a wholly bad plan, tactically, if one is trying to increase the distance between selves and Team Evil.

That depends on how sturdy the door is and its enchantments. It swings out and might be built to withstand the creatures within. Creatures strong enough to get an epic guy XP.

It's a good idea if they can't phase through it.

[Peelee]

I mean, the actual definition of "vegetable" is just "plant part that we eat". Any stricter assignment qualifiers are largely cultural in basis.

Indeed.

Anyway, the other 1% is contract law instead of tax law. For example, a food court has a sandwich place with a contract for no other sandwich places, and a burrito place moves in. Sandwich place doesn't like the competition, so they claim a burrito is a sandwich, and now a court has to make a legal decision on whether a burrito counts as a sandwich to see if the contract has been broken or not.

And then probably tax it differently anyway.

[Fyraltari]

Wait..what?

I thought we were on killing them by replacing their -ing tea with proper coffee.

Using cheese to kill an Englishman sound like a waste of a perfectly serviceable cheese to me.

It’s traditional, okay!?

.Kraft singles (one of the most commonly sold brands is technically a "pasteurized prepared cheese product" and contains (in decreasing order) Actual cheese, other dairy products, whey, "Protein concentrate" (probably from whey), multiple kinds of salts (both unhealthy and healthy), Gelatin, extra Lactic acid, food dye, and vitamin D3 (it helps absorption of calcium, which is in both the dairy and the salts).

It can't kill an Englishman, in fact, it could bore an Englishman, which is saying something of a food item.

Oh.

[Peelee]

Oh.

In addition to tasting like plastic, they are also individually wrapped in plastic, so there is no shortage of reasons to hate Kraft Singles.

Meanwhile, actual American cheese isn't bad, and neither are other American cheeses (like Swiss).

ETA: And you don't even want to know about the abomination that is "frozen dessert".

[Yirggzmb]

In addition to tasting like plastic, they are also individually wrapped in plastic, so there is no shortage of reasons to hate Kraft Singles.

They make an alright grilled cheese, though. Nothing spectacular, but they taste like childhood.

[Fyraltari]

In addition to tasting like plastic, they are also individually wrapped in plastic, so there is no shortage of reasons to hate Kraft Singles.

Why are you* like this.

Meanwhile, actual American cheese isn't bad, and neither are other American cheeses (like Swiss).

Listen, why do you* talk to me about american cheese if it's not american cheese. Also how does that make sense.

ETA: And you don't even want to know about the abomination that is "frozen dessert".

... Not ice-cream, I take it?


*This is a general "you".

[Ruck]

The right white American cheese can be pretty good melted on a sandwich, but all in all I'd just prefer other options (for example, Havarti still crushes American in this particular regard).

The world isn't ready for the kind of food we'd make if no-one was watching us.

You've got something that'll top ortolan?

[Worldsong]

OK. I grant you the gouda.

As a dutchman this pleases me.

Actually its +2 (to all attributes) for lich.

He was already old (+2 again) or even venerable (+3 instead). Even if he started at 10 that is 14-15 unless he spent one attribute up on rounding one or both to 16. All three values are respectable values for starting PCs. Cha might be mid to upper 20s unless he is wearing something to push into the 30s.

The Class and Geekery thread puts his CHA at 28+

i feel he is more like the Joker; his plans are maybe two three step things. More like contingencies. He has a goal (though it may of changed after lichdom) and simply meanders towards it.

He has all the time in the world now...

That does make sense, although I'd say that the Joker still is better at it than him.

[Fyraltari]

You've got something that'll top ortolan?

Answering this query would likely result in me dying by having foie gras shoved into my throat.







It's not a pretty death.

[danielxcutter]

Answering this query would likely result in me dying by having foie gras shoved into my throat.







It's not a pretty death.

Isn't foie gras relatively normal for a meat product when produced naturally? Much of the notoriety is from factory farms I believe.

That being said, it's still liver. I don't think I'd like it either way.

[Fincher]

I don't mind how Kraft Singles taste. Spicy cheeses like pepper jack and smoked cheese are what I don't like.

[Fyraltari]

Isn't foie gras relatively normal for a meat product when produced naturally? Much of the notoriety is from factory farms I believe.

Look my joke isn’t particularly deep, I just came up with a random typically French foodstuff to be force-fed to death.

Though now that you mention it I probably thought of foie gras because of the force-feeding. And no, foie gras can’t be produced naturally because it is, by definition, the liver of a goose or duck force-fed into obesity. That’s why it’s called that (fat liver).

That being said, it's still liver. I don't think I'd like it either way.

It is disgusting and I wish I could go an entire Christmas/New Year’s Eve season without being offered any.

[Worldsong]

When it comes to food the French are really weird.

[Fyraltari]

When it comes to food the French are really weird.

Err, it’s spelled C-R-E-A-T-I-V-E.

[arimareiji]

Do we have any solid indication on Minrah's alignment? I'm a little befuddled by the assertions that the double-bluff was thought up by one of the lawful members of the party, because in my head she seems more like a neutral.

(Also in my head she seems very likely to become the party member who will actually grieve for Belkar, but that's another story.)

After all the good points that have already been made, I'd like to add one:

What happens to a dungeon full of monsters when you leave the door open? There are now a lot of open doors with potentially a lot of monsters behind them.

You get a family of beholders floating up to close the door ("Who's the jerk letting in all the cold air!?"), just as Minrah and Durkon are coming out to make their escape.

[Worldsong]

Err, it’s spelled C-R-E-A-T-I-V-E.

That's an odd way of spelling weird, but all right.

[Quartz]

The French wish their cheese was as good as the Dutch's.

Umm... no.

[Metastachydium]

Spoiler

Show

Dorukan came out of his tower to fight Xykon because Xykon used Lirian as bait, and Dorukan underestimated what Xykon could do. In end, Xykon used a cudgel to finish him off, but there were a lot of other things that happened in that fight, too. Xykon was more prepared than Dorukan thought he'd be. Xykon killed Roy by abandoning his dragon and letting Roy fall to his death.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Yup. We can give him partial credit for Dorukan. Still, it was more of a right for the wrong reason thing than a plan that worked out as planned (Dorukan did not care about X.'s threat per se, he just wanted to retreive the gem). Also, it could have ended worse for Xykon.

As for Roy, the dragon was not a trap, and Roy was not supposed to jump on it in the first place. Heck, Xykon could have ditched the dragon the moment Roy leaped on it. Instead, he tried to have a conversation with him, getting wounded in the process, right before the big fight in the throne room. Revealing himself to those on the wall was a deviation from the original plan, and a stupid one at that.

Consolidating Gobbotopia was never something that Xykon didn't want to do. You're forgetting here that Redcloak was the one for whom "getting on with the plan" was of ultimate importance. For Xykon, it's just a lark. If the plan stalls for a little while, it stalls. Xykon didn't have a particularly strong desire to move on until suddenly he did, which is exactly when they moved on. And the only bit of "feeding him the right information" Redcloak really did was not telling him that he didn't expect O-Chul's interrogation to pan out.

Hell, re-read this strip. Redcloak is talking about how important it is to get information on the next gate, and Xykon is more interested in using O-Chul as entertainment. Xykon's urgency to leave Gobbotopia was non-existent until he got pissed off.

Xykon is notorious for his short attention span, and yet he's been working towards the Plan for decades. We know he did not care much about the idea of Redcloak setting up goblinoid colonies, and neither did he care much about the hobgoblins (he had Tsukiko zombify their dead after the thing with the prison). While X. does not always seem to have his priorities straight (v. betting on O-Chul), there is no indication whatsoever he would have stayed in Azure City for a second if O-Chul were not captured. At any rate, he stayed out of running the new goblinoid city entirely (despite being terminally bored all the time), so it's fairly unlikely he enjoyed having it around all that much.

A plan that relies on nothing unexpected ever happening or your opponents never getting a bit of good luck is a really lousy plan. And you're also flat-out wrong here- Redcloak did foresee somebody trying to teleport in to kill them, which is why they had wards in place. A thousand different things could have happened. That's what contingency plans are for- you don't try to plan for every single thing that the enemy can throw at you, you just put some basic redundancies in place so that you cover as many different kinds of failure as possible.

EDIT: The current circumstance is an excellent example. If Xykon figures out that they've been betray he might just get pissed off enough to vent in Redcloak's direction. The specific circumstances may not have been predictable, but that doesn't matter- this kind of thing is going to happen sooner or later and if Redcloak's control over Xykon is so fragile that it can be broken the moment an unforeseen challenge comes up then it was never worth calling "control" in the first place.

The eventuality of someone otherwise non-Evil with a grudge against you splicing their soul three times with epic Evil souls for unrelated reasons is not the kind of thing you make contingency plans for, you know, and it does not happen on any odd unlucky day, either. Implying that is much like saying Girard's defenses were ludicrously weak because he did not account for the possibility of someone casting an obscure epic-level necromancy spell on a distant relative of his he did not even know about.

Xykon knew better than to give Redcloak the chance to try to talk himself out of it. He knew he wouldn't be able to verify whatever Redcloak told him, and that pressing him on it would just reveal to Redcloak what Xykon did or did not know.

That's what you assume. But then, Tsukiko demanded an explanation from Redcloak upon kinda-sorta understanding what it does not do (Tsukiko, mind you, could not make much sense out of the arcane half without knowing what the divine half does). That would have likely happened even if he did not smoke her. Y'see, were the arcane half to allow one to move the Gate and Rift around and were the divine half to give one the option to open and close the Gate unleashing or canning the Snarl at will, the Ritual would technically do what Xykon thinks it does, and the arcane half would look the same. Redcloak never told Xykon that the arcane half will bind the Snarl to his will, and X. or Ts. cannot verify that the divine half does not do just that. The evidence Tsukiko has is useless in itself.

Again, you are not making a good case for Redcloak here. If he was anything like in subtle control of Xykon he wouldn't have to rely on openly confronting him. The friggin' MitD understands this better than Redcloak does. He did a better job in the desert of figuring out which of Xykon's buttons he had to press to get him to agree. He doesn't try to argue with Xykon directly. He knows when to play dumb.

As does Redcloak. Speaking of Tsukiko, do you remember how he explained away her death? He told X. Tsukiko broke into his study rambling like a lunatic and waving around a copy of the arcane half, so he had to put her down. Then he lets Jirix and Xykon put two and two together and figure out that she was looking for the divine half, only interjecting this and that to solidify their theory that she was planning a coup. X. looks somewhat embarrassed that he handed the copy to her, and lets the thing slide.

Xykon feeling safer than ever is a hell of an assumption. Xykon has demonstrated rather conclusively that he does not trust Redcloak as much as he used to. He didn't listen to Redcloak's advice in the desert, and he didn't listen to him in the lastest strip.

He does not have to trust Redcloak. He only has to believe he's invulnerable because he cleverly took the phylactery away from his powerless lackey and placed it somewhere safe. Xykon seems to believe that and it is wrong.

And, after all this, Redcloak still doesn't have any leverage on Xykon that he can actually use if Xykon decides to ditch the plan. Having his phylactery is of strictly limited usefulness- it'll let him kill Xykon if his body is destroyed, but if he does that the plan is kaput. If he tries to blackmain Xykon then Xykon can just kill him, trap his soul, and go on a goblin rampage until Redcloak tells him where it is. Redcloak is still 100% reliant on Xykon thinking that the ritual will put the gate under his control, with zero room for anything going wrong.

As far as Redcloak knows, if he can destroy Xykon when he becomes a liability, the Gate and the world will still be there. It would be the largest setback he ever suffered, but not game over. If he dies and Xykon lives, it's probably over, however.

Your assessment of Redcloak's position is wildly optimistic.

Disagreed. All I'm saying is, that Worldsong and others are right: even if we have no reason to overestimate Redcloak's capabilities, the same goes for Xykon as well. Claiming that Redcloak is a dead man walking and literally cannot win would be a gross exaggeration.

[Alcore]

As does Redcloak. Speaking of Tsukiko, do you remember how he explained away her death? He told X. Tsukiko broke into his study rambling like a lunatic and waving around a copy of the arcane half, so he had to put her down. Then he lets Jirix and Xykon put two and two together and figure out that she was looking for the divine half, only interjecting this and that to solidify their theory that she was planning a coup. X. looks somewhat embarrassed that he handed the copy to her, and lets the thing slide.

I am more of the belief he knew exactly why she was in Red's study. But X. could also believe that Pigtails would also do (or at least imagine) all the things that Red spoke of. The Plan requires two caster both with 9th level spells. At the time Pigtails was already dead and X knows Red and he ain't getting her back without wish.

I feel X. conceded the battle to Red as there was nothing to gain with a fight with Red; Pigtails did not get the other half (I can't image how much or little hope X. had of it written down at all) and was dead. It was either scrap the Plan or admit defeat. Red even phrased it in such a way that he could say face by denying the whole thing.