OOTS #1216 - The Discussion Thread

[Petrocorus]

Did you have to give up coffee too? Because if so, what would be the point of living anymore?

I did but for completely unrelated reason and only for a while.
I do plan to resume my normal coffee intake soon.

I plan to resume the other stuffs when my weight will be below 94.

Unless the dungeon tunnels are *really* generic, Team Evil should realize whether they've been in this one before by the time they reach the first room. On the other hand, it would make a pretty funny meta joke if they couldn't tell one generically drawn dungeon from another.

We have no idea of the layout of the dungeons, and of the time before monsters pop up back, and how many dungeons have actually be cleared.
As far as we know, Team Evil could be in a dungeon they really cleared and not notice it and still encounter monsters.

But you can still kill an Englishman with it, right?

Yes, always possible.

My own pet theory is that the Hundred Years War was actually resolved with a Food Wars Style shokugeki/cook-off. Anyone who's had English cooking and French cooking wouldn't even have to guess the winner. I suppose the French won, but , faced with the reality of having to eat English cooking if they took the island off the cost of France, decided it would be best if they went their separate ways.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

That's now my favorite version of history.

[Doug Lampert]

There's a certain amount of precedent for "gods allowing their clerics to break the one-step rule". I could see Thor being "patron of dwarves" for his giving them advice about how to act honourably and thus avoid Hel - and so, having a specific exemption to the one-step rule in this case.

The 3.5 PHB has Saint Cuthbert not allowing LE clerics who'd be allowed by the one step rule and IIRC the PHB states that there can be other exceptions.

Forgotten realms, there are exceptions all over the place, the most extreme being Midnight/Mystra who was/is NG, and had LE clerics during 3.5, that's three steps. The only way to get farther away would be if she were chaotic good.

[understatement]

I'm ashamed. Has no one made a more-door joke yet?

[Arathorne]

I'm ashamed. Has no one made a more-door joke yet?

I think all the LotR jokes were used up in the last comics thread...

[bunsen_h]

But you can still kill an Englishman with it, right?

In one of the earliest D&D games I played, the DM had a chapbook of cantrips. Casters were allowed unlimited use of one of these per point of INT. Which I thought foolhardy of the DM, but I kept my ideas in reserve for emergencies.

One of these cantrips created non-nutritive food. Calorie-free bread, cheese that provided no nutrition, and so on. "How much can I make?" I asked. "As much as you want." "Really? As much as I want?" "Sure, why not?"

So not long after, when our low-level characters were being chased up a hill, our pursuers faced giant wheels of non-nutritive cheese rolling down on them. ("Run away!")

As I recall, after a later incident, when I got us out of trouble with enormous blobs of non-nutritive green gelatine (diet lime Jello!), the DM changed the rule.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The 3.5 PHB has Saint Cuthbert not allowing LE clerics who'd be allowed by the one step rule and IIRC the PHB states that there can be other exceptions.

St Cuthbert also has NG clerics. It makes more sense when you remember he was a LG deity from the beginning through 2E and got moved to LN for 3E because they didn't have a greater god who was LN and they needed to tick that box off.

[Anitar]

Unless the dungeon tunnels are *really* generic, Team Evil should realize whether they've been in this one before by the time they reach the first room. On the other hand, it would make a pretty funny meta joke if they couldn't tell one generically drawn dungeon from another.

They're too visually complex for that.

[KorvinStarmast]

St Cuthbert also has NG clerics. It makes more sense when you remember he was a LG deity from the beginning through 2E and got moved to LN for 3E because they didn't have a greater god who was LN and they needed to tick that box off.

One more reason to ask WoTC: Uh, what?

[WanderingMist]

So raise your hand if you think they just accidentally led them to the right door by a horrible accident.

Law of Narrative Tension suggests the worst possible outcome: this will be the dungeon that the bad guys need.

Law of averages suggests it could be one they've cleared, or it could be one they've not cleared, but probably isn't the one they need.

Law of Plot Development requires that it not be one they've cleared, so that they learn something new and have to at least start searching them all all over again.

No clue if they'll even think to blame the Monster in the Dark. Remember, they think he's stupid as well as naive.

Lower your hands, because that makes MitD's entire marking extra door thing pointless. If they do blame MitD, Xykon will pin it on stupidity, but Redcloak will be suspicious.

Bardic senses tingling!

I sense a door chase scene upcoming!

Scooby-Dooby-Doo! Where are you?

Also, perhaps a hint that Monster Hollow is one giant piece of misdirection, and I wonder if Redcloak will make that connection after this little incident peters out. I have long held a theory that Serini, not being the type to retire (per the crayon story), and who seemed to get along well with most of the party despite their squabbling, and who kept a very detailed diary about everything, somehow tried to combine ALL of the protection methods for her gate. Girard's illusions and misdirections, her own belief in might (big monsters)

Serini wasn't the one who believed in might, that was Kraagor. She built the Gate in his memory. But there's 100% chance there is some other deception going on, which I have theories about.

I don't know whether this will prove to be the real door or not, but it would make sense from a storytelling perspective, if it was. I believe the storytelling purpose of the doors was to keep Team Evil occupied while our characters were busy on a side quest to the godsmoot and then to the dwarven lands. Now that the heroes are here , it makes sense to ratchet up the tension and the stakes by allowing Team Evil to find their goal, so that the heroes and Team Evil can have their final battle with the fate of the world at stake.

Otherwise, the logical plan for OOTS is to follow Team Evil at a discrete distance until TE encounters the Tarrasque or something. Then, hit TE while it's low on HP and spells for the day. If TE never reaches that point, then OOTS simply follows them forever.

So, yes. It's time to repair the broken bridge and allow both sides into the final dungeon. I don't know whether this will particularly be the moment when that happens, but it ought to be soon.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

the laws of narrative demand that the door they picked is the right gate...

The law of narrative actually demands the exact opposite, that this cannot be the right door. Because otherwise, MitD's extra markings are an unfired Chekov's Gun.

I'm in French Guyana, the equatorial part of France near Brazil.
Our seasons are rain season, short hot "dry" season, rain season, long hot "dry" season.
I put "dry" in quotes because that's what we call them but they are nowhere near as dry as someone from southern USA would consider as dry. They are dry compared to the rain season.

That's only southwest USA. Southeast USA gets the heat AND the humidity. It's terrible and I've only been there in the winter.

What about when it's loaded by bear? What kind of ammunition can bears offer you?

Are they Krosp I's bears? You might get something really unexpected...

Wait..what?

I thought we were on killing them by replacing their -ing tea with proper coffee.

Using cheese to kill an Englishman sound like a waste of a perfectly serviceable cheese to me.

Tea and coffee are both terrible. Hot chocolate is the true drink of mankind!

I mean, the actual definition of "vegetable" is just "plant part that we eat". Any stricter assignment qualifiers are largely cultural in basis.

The best definition would probably be "plant part we eat that is not fruit".

That's an odd way of spelling weird, but all right.

Either way, "creative" isn't always synonymous with "good".

Given Thor seems to be CG (only cares about rules to the extent of keeping the Snarl locked down), she should be NG, CG or CN. And no, I have no idea how LG-bordering-on-LN Durkon can be a cleric of Thor.

I don't see how Durkon is bordering on LN. He hasn't done anything particularly evil. Are you sure you don't mean he's bordering on NG?

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Anyway, I've changed my stance on the "The Gate is under the statue" theory after being reminded that the ravine is made of multidimensional stone. It still has the Gate not being behind any of the doors. We know that Soon's Rift was the smallest one, but did we ever learn which rift was the largest? Remind me if we did, but I'd be willing to bet it was this one. So what if the entire ravine is the Gate? As in, not just Monster Hollow, but the very ravine itself? And if Serini was the one who set the bugbear clan up there in the first place...then that would allow it to combine essentially the entire Order of the Scribble's wits against any would-be intruders. Lirian (monsters are a part of nature), Kraagor (the sheer number of monsters), Soon (a group of dedicated guards, the only ones in on the secret, sworn to protect it with their lives), Girard (a dedicated family, the only ones in on the secret, sworn to protect it with their lives) [isn't it ironic that Girard protected his Gate essentially the same way as Soon?], Dorukan (magical power in the form of the rock itself), and Serini (for hiding the Gate in plain sight).

[bunsen_h]

Are they Krosp I's bears? You might get something really unexpected...

"This Bear does not know what it does. This Bear simply followed instructions, and took it from box marked 'DO NOT OPEN THIS BOX'."

Anyway, I've changed my stance on the "The Gate is under the statue" theory after being reminded that the ravine is made of multidimensional stone.

If the stone is multidimensional, "under" may not be well-defined. You might be able to eke out an "in close proximity to" with sufficiently advanced math.

[Peelee]

I think this question is for Petrocorus? Because I live in Western Europe.

So do I! Well, for remarkably generous definitions of "Western" and remarkably loose definitions of "Europe".

[Petrocorus]

So do I! Well, for remarkably generous definitions of "Western" and remarkably loose definitions of "Europe".

TBH, there was a time i thought you lived in England, because i knew there were a Birmingham.
Took me some times to wonder what this "..., AL" meant.

[JSSheridan]

I missed that Greyview is looking at the ground in one panel
Will he sniff our dwarves out?

[Ruck]

When it comes to food the French are really weird.

Err, it’s spelled C-R-E-A-T-I-V-E.

You both misspelled A-W-E-S-O-M-E.

But the King of cheese? The Royalty?
Mozzarella di buffala, as made in Mondragone, Italy. (Campania regione)

Few things I enjoy more than a good fresh mozzarella, especially one of these.

How do you know about this?

I know about many, many things.

[Fincher]

The best definition would probably be "plant part we eat that is not fruit".

Or grain, nut, herb...

[Petrocorus]

I know about many, many things.

Passing in one of the cheese lane in the supermarket today, i was reminded that Ortolan is also a type of cheese.

[Peelee]

I plan to resume the other stuffs when my weight will be below 94.

I've been stuck at ~93 for years and and it's infuriating. Of course, my resolure refusal to actually do anything about it probably isn't helping, but still.

Anyway, I believe in you!

TBH, there was a time i thought you lived in England, because i knew there were a Birmingham.
Took me some times to wonder what this "..., AL" meant.

Imean, I wouldn't mind living in the UK one bit (I believe, at least), but it's like they don't want me or something.

[Anitar]

Soon's Rift was the smallest one, but did we ever learn which rift was the largest? Remind me if we did, but I'd be willing to bet it was this one.

We've seen all five; judging by the scenery, the order is Dorukan > Girard > Kraagor > Lirian > Soon.
But who knows how reliable that is, especially when it comes to their gates? Dorukan's (allegedly the largest, assuming the crayons can be trusted here) fit inside a door; Girard's (barely smaller) had a huge dishonest monolith; and Lirian's (kinda small) was in some kind of object the size of a few Medium creatures.

Anyway. I like your idea, but it seems improbable because of how easy-to-access the gate would be. Any would-be defiler with a good eye for deception could mess with such a gate without even entering the heavily-guarded dungeons.

[Petrocorus]

Anyway, I believe in you!

Not sure if you should.
After all this talk about cheese, my trip to the supermarket was not that easy.

Yesterday was easier, it was the Day of the Pizza (and of my episode of The Boys), but that won't happen again for 10 days.

BTW, if one want a perfect example of how to make fun of us French in a way we do find awesome, one just need to look at Garth Ennis's way in The Boys comics.
We're talking about guys jousting on bicycles with baguette as spears. Probably won't happen in the TV show though.

[Peelee]

guys jousting on bicycles with baguette as spears.

In America that activity is called "college".

[Xlsfd]

that's the beauty of it. You don't need to destroy the phylactery; you need to place in a place that Xykon cannot form a body. It the object is not considered inherently evil dumping it in a positive energy plane ensures the phylactery remains and Xykon is destroyed every X days when his skull tries to reform.


Heck; a monastery with a few level 1 clerics with +1 clubs can make it a nightly chore.


Once a phylactery is in enemy hands a Lich is in big trouble.

Unfortunately, Roy has a vested interest in destroying the phylactery, as his father's blood oath remains unfulfilled as long as Xykon isn't completely destroyed. And as long as the phylactery exists, so does Xykon. And no, this isn't just an opinion, this has been stated in the comic, Strip 293 to be exact.

[Theshipening]

If the stone is multidimensional, "under" may not be well-defined. You might be able to eke out an "in close proximity to" with sufficiently advanced math.

I don’t think it’s multidimensional in the “exists in more than 3 dimensions of space” sense, but rather in the “Also exists in the Ethereal plane” one, like a Wall of Force, preventing creatures like Xykon with Ghostform from just waltzing in and out.

[Alcore]

Unfortunately, Roy has a vested interest in destroying the phylactery, as his father's blood oath remains unfulfilled as long as Xykon isn't completely destroyed. And as long as the phylactery exists, so does Xykon. And no, this isn't just an opinion, this has been stated in the comic, Strip 293 to be exact.

Indeed. But you have taken my post out of context...

[Yirggzmb]

The best definition would probably be "plant part we eat that is not fruit".

Honestly, hard disagree. "Fruit" has an actual scientific definition describing the role it plays in the plant. It's the part that holds the seeds for reproduction.

Vegetable, meanwhile, does not have a hard definition beyond "it came from a plant and we eat it". Most of our lines about calling something a "vegetable" or not is based on culture and how we tend to prepare/serve it. If we went strictly by scientific/botanical terms, we wouldn't use the word "vegetable" at all.

Among things I generally see called vegetables, you got
Tomatoes (yes), peppers, cucumbers, and squash are all fruit
Carrots, beets, radishes, potatoes, parsnips, rutabagas, and turnips are all roots of some variety
Onions, garlic, and leeks are bulbs
Lettuce, spinach, cabbage, kale, and collards are all leaves
Rhubarb and asparagus are stems
Broccoli and cauliflower are part stem part flower
Peas, corn, and beans are seeds
Okra is a seed pod, apparently (they also look bizarre growing)

And yet "fruit" is the only one people quibble about, really. Occasionally someone in my family will argue against corn or potatoes as vegetables, but it's usually "fruit" when it comes up.

"Fruit" also has a cultural/culinary definition similar to "vegetable", which I'd probably peg as "part of the plant that is botanically a fruit but also significantly sweet or at least primarily used in sweet preparations". Your main oddballs there are lemons, and I'd still say they have high sugar content even if they are really sour.

When ordinary people talk about "fruits and vegetables", they almost certainly mean the cultural definitions, unless they're pulling out a "did you know tomatoes aren't really vegetables?". When botanists talk about "fruits", they're probably using the scientific one, unless they're grocery shopping.

And yes, you did hit my one pedant button. My apologies :P I'm also now realizing that you, yourself, may have been using a cultural definition of fruit. If that's the case, my bad, but I'm still posting this because I find the topic interesting and I'm still a pedant.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I don't see how Durkon is bordering on LN. He hasn't done anything particularly evil. Are you sure you don't mean he's bordering on NG?

No, Lawful Neutral. We're told he'd Good, but all his character beats are about following the rules, using knowledge of the rules to twist things to his preferred outcome and even selling out his team to the forces of (corrupt) order. All straight up Lawful. In fact, from pretty much the moment we're introduced to him in OOPCs the single trait everyone defines him by is his Lawfulness. He even obeys orders from the paladin in that first group who's trying to get him quietly murdered (and doesn't draw the conclusion that he needs to consider the morality of a paladin's instead of blindly obeying, which crops up again with Miko, what, three times?).

I'm actually giving him credit for Roy saying he's Good, because from what we've seen Durkon's pretty much straight up LN.

[Clistenes]

The good old double bluff. Durkon learned from Haley.

More like a triple bluff:

Level 1: Open several doors; try to guess what door they have passed through.
Level 2: They haven't crossed any of those doors, but a another one.
Level 3: They haven't crossed that one either.

[HeroErix]

Unfortunately, Roy has a vested interest in destroying the phylactery, as his father's blood oath remains unfulfilled as long as Xykon isn't completely destroyed. And as long as the phylactery exists, so does Xykon. And no, this isn't just an opinion, this has been stated in the comic, Strip 293 to be exact.

Alcore's post was in the context of what Redcloak could do with Xykon's phylactery once X was destroyed. Redcloak doesn't have a specific need to destroy the phylactery, just stop Xykon from regenerating.

Of course I do think that destroying it would be the best idea in the long run. Even if it takes a millenia, if Xykon somehow reformed I could see him starting some Goblin genocide for revenge against Redcloak.

[Shining Wrath]

OK, new (very unlikely so don't beat me too hard) possible plot twist.

Durkon and Minrah are now directly above the dungeon with the Gate, and will be able to hear ... something ... happening below them.
The Gate is not reached through one of the doors. It's reached by using Stone Shape or similar to simply move the stone aside and create an opening. In Kragor's Dungeon, you must be strong enough to remove tons of stone to reach the Gate.

[Skull the Troll]

I think all the LotR jokes were used up in the last comics thread...

And every thread before that. :)

[Goblin_Priest]

Damn you and your well-thought-out puns. You know I can't resist those.



Redcloak definitely does not have as much control as he thinks he has, but there's a very big and very important difference between "Less control than imagined" and "No control at all."

I think I've said it before, but while Xykon is going to end up on top I highly doubt it's going to be a case of "I outplayed you on every level."



You can't get much lower than in a hole.
Yes I am the worst type of person.

They basically found the deepest ravine. And then dug a hole to get even deeper.