OOTS #1216 - The Discussion Thread

[Metastachydium]

I thought it ambiguous. Shocking, I know, for D&D rules. https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm

I'd hang my hat on the No side with the following quote from that link: "True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects." There's a layer of stone---very thin, true---between the Meld recipients and the outside world. They can hear what's going on the other side, but they can't see it.

Meld into Stone is technically a transmutation effect, so if True Seeing makes identifying such effects possible („[t]he subject (…) sees the true form of (…) transmuted things”), shouldn't Redcloak be able to realize that the stone has been tampered with via using his True Seeing?

[kenlund]

Go team cleric!

And even if Team Evil finds out behind that door the dungeon wasn't cleared out, they still be be no closer in the short term to the gate...except by random chance This means they have to pretty much start over. Or course, they could be pissed off at MITD, but maybe this would be the final straw that would cause him to switch teams.

the only scary thought is that this door is where the gate is and the MITD had put an "x" on it so they wouldn't have found it anytime soon...and now today they do. [queue dramatic music]

[137beth]

Oh snap, they're going to figure out that someone has been marking extra doors

[Quizatzhaderac]

Bardic senses tingling!

I sense a door chase scene upcoming!

[jpnuar1]

Did anyone else see "Big ass lightning bolt" and immediately think of xkcd 37?

[Wraithfighter]

Ok, Xykon, you stepped right into this one!

Spoiler: Immature humour warning!

Show

I could hit 'em with a big ass.
big ass is my strongest spell.
plenty of her to horribly kill someone.

You forgot:

Spoiler: Immature humour warning!

Show

Firstly, because big ass

[Baine]

I think Redcloak will blame the extra X marks on the Dwarf clerics, citing Occam's Razor.

I will be quite surprised if MitD even falls under suspicion.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I think this is the first time we've explicitly seen Xykon explicitly hold back because he doesn't want to waste his power. The only other time we've seen any real limitations to his power was in the Azure city throne room, when he was up against an entire army of ghosts led by an epic-level Paladin. The way he's casually thrown around meteor swarms in the past, especially during the Darth V fight, made it feel like the order wouldn't stand a ghost of a chance against him - but now I feel there's a glimmer of hope.

[Ron Miel]

Panel 2 should say "loaded fer bear" not "loaded ta bear".

I thought the same, but looking it up it's a common enough expression. "Loaded for bear" gets around 500K hits, and "loaded to bear" gets 250K hits.

The two doors to the left of the double door are both yellow.

So this isn't the same place

It doesn't need to be. The implication is that MITD has been marking additional doors for a while, not just that one time.

[HeroErix]

Assuming that this is a dungeon that has not been cleared and Team Evil runs into some very powerful monsters, where does that leave Team Cleric? Would Team Evil still assume that they went through the door and are now dead, or would they assume that they have indeed been tricked? Could encountering a monster make them leave the dungeon sooner than they would have if it were and empty dungeon and catch the clerics again before they have time to fully exit the area?

[KorvinStarmast]

EDIT: Aside, good thing the Valley floor isn't made of the same interdimensional stone that the walls of Monster Hollow are. That'd be embarrassing. Well, at least Durkon and Minrah wouldn't be embarrassed for long.

I was pondering on whether or not the valley floor was made of the multidimensional stone, particularly when Durkon said "so we're gonna hide in the rock face" (panel 6)

but they then hid on the valley floor.

My first thought was along these lines ...

Next strip, Minrah and Durkon are shown in the multidimensional stone, talking to each other, and saying something like 'this is some weird stone, the spell's not quite working as it usually does'

They end up popping out of the stone somewhere else {X number of strips} later.

But if the valley floor is not made of that kind of stone, then I ask:
did Minrah unwittingly save their chili?

[Riftwolf]

So the whole canyon isn't made of multidimensional stone, only the caverns? Or MDstone is stone enough for meld into stone, but too much stone for ghostform?

[hroþila]

Yes he was (and he probably spent more time as Redcloak's chief lieutenant in occupied Azure City than he did as prime minister), but that's beside the point. Redcloak just strikes me as the kind of guy who would pay attention not to use that name when talking about that city.

They renamed it when Xykon was already away building his Astral Plane fortress, and they left again immediately after he got back. I wouldn't be surprised if Xykon didn't even know the city's got a new name, so maybe Redcloak is simply using the only name Xykon would recognize.

[Jacky720]

It doesn't need to be. The implication is that MITD has been marking additional doors for a while, not just that one time.

Except that if it were, we would be able to conclude whether that door was marked erroneously without needing to rely on "the best way to push the narrative here is that that door is marked erroneously, or maybe even the correct one!"

[Turin_19]

Just thinking that they might have now thrown away the chance of catching Team Evil off guard.

One of their best hopes at succeeding were to await Team Evil raiding a number of dungeons then attacking. This doesn't seem possible right now.

[KorvinStarmast]

They renamed it when Xykon was already away building his Astral Plane fortress, and they left again immediately after he got back. I wouldn't be surprised if Xykon didn't even know the city's got a new name, so maybe Redcloak is simply using the only name Xykon would recognize.

+1 quataloos on this one.

[Bilbo Baggins]

So the whole canyon isn't made of multidimensional stone, only the caverns? Or MDstone is stone enough for meld into stone, but too much stone for ghostform?

The latter option seems reasonable to me. If Meld into Stone physically melds your body into the stone, it would work equally well against regular stone or multidimensional stone. Whereas Ghostform shifts your body into the ethereal plane - ordinarily this would allow you to pass through material objects, but the multidimensional stone exists on the ethereal plane as well and so blocks you even in ghostform.

(I'm not claiming the above is definitively true, but just a reasonable explanation of how it could work.)

[Metastachydium]

They renamed it when Xykon was already away building his Astral Plane fortress, and they left again immediately after he got back. I wouldn't be surprised if Xykon didn't even know the city's got a new name, so maybe Redcloak is simply using the only name Xykon would recognize.

That's one good point. Case closed, I guess.

[Aidan]

So I looked through the old comics and it seems like there is no conclusive answer as to whether or not the door they went in was falsely marked by MiTD.

Firstly, they are not in the same area where MiTD started falsely marking doors, so they aren't part of the ones we know aren't cleared. The giant green door in 1040 doesn't match the smaller one we see in today's comic. It has prominent triangular hinges, and we can see that the green door in today's comic doesn't have them. In fact, I don't think we've seen these doors before, I haven't been able to find them in comic 1039, 1041 or 1203. The ones in 1041 look vaguely similar but have differences on closer inspection (the yellow door is a single door not a double door for example).

Secondly, it MiTD has been marking other doors in addition to the initial ones. In 1189 Redcloak says that they previously have done six doors. In 1041 only four doors were marked by MiTD, meaning that MiTD also marked six or more doors at least once. So the fact that these doors weren't part of the initial set doesn't mean that some aren't falsely marked.

I came here to note my findings about the same thing. But you got here first . I agree with your assessment, that it seems as though we haven't seen these doors before, and it is definitely possible that this is an unchecked dungeon, (also because of the doors with x's on them, a majority of them should be unopened).

I also do want to make a sidenote that the only member of Team Evil who isn't "chasing" the dwarves is the MitD. I wonder if he's about to do something funny and/or heartwarming.

[Gitman00]

My predictions (while admitting that these are only a few possibilities of many):

1. This is not the dungeon containing the gate. I think it's much more likely that the gate is not through any of the doors, but is accessed a different way. Two of the other gates were disguised in some way, so I find it highly likely the one designed by the epic rogue utilizes layers of deception as well.

2. This will likely be a door that hasn't been cleared, revealing the MitD's deception. If it's not, then the Chekhov's Gun remains unfired, no one learns anything, and the plot does not advance.

3. There was some foreshadowing that they were (relatively) low on resources and were unsure about tackling another dungeon before resting, so it would be interesting if Xykon ends up getting killed in this dungeon. He would return to his phylactery to regenerate, which means he would discover Redcloak's deception. One of two things could result:

A) Xykon kills Redcloak, making Jirix the high priest, and he might be more open to Durkon's offer.

B) Redcloak flees after Xykon discovers his treachery, and being out of options, he goes to the OotS chastened and more open to negotiating.*

*I recognize that these are longshot possibilities, as the logical thing for Redcloak to do if Xykon gets killed is to destroy the phylactery before Xykon can regenerate and kill him.

[gatemansgc]

you know what would suck? if that was one of the doors that MitD painted that actually had the gate in it!

[Ghosty]

Meld into Stone is technically a transmutation effect, so if True Seeing makes identifying such effects possible („[t]he subject (…) sees the true form of (…) transmuted things”), shouldn't Redcloak be able to realize that the stone has been tampered with via using his True Seeing?

Yeah, as I said, ambiguous. I saw that part of the section and didn't know whether it'd apply in this case, or whether the authors only meant it for cases where the entity transmuted themselves into another form. Like being petrified. Or using Shapechange to turn yourself into a golem.

[Lord Torath]

Did anyone else see "Big ass lightning bolt" and immediately think of xkcd 37?

Lovely!

I loved the "splurp" sound effects for Durkon and Minrah.

And, as always, Oona is adorable. "We are loving you so much, Miss Oona!" Who is, apparently, single. Shippers, hoist your sails!

[Aidan]

My predictions (while admitting that these are only a few possibilities of many):

1. This is not the dungeon containing the gate. I think it's much more likely that the gate is not through any of the doors, but is accessed a different way. Two of the other gates were disguised in some way, so I find it highly likely the one designed by the epic rogue utilizes layers of deception as well.

2. This will likely be a door that hasn't been cleared, revealing the MitD's deception. If it's not, then the Chekhov's Gun remains unfired, no one learns anything, and the plot does not advance.

3. There was some foreshadowing that they were (relatively) low on resources and were unsure about tackling another dungeon before resting, so it would be interesting if Xykon ends up getting killed in this dungeon. He would return to his phylactery to regenerate, which means he would discover Redcloak's deception. One of two things could result:

A) Xykon kills Redcloak, making Jirix the high priest, and he might be more open to Durkon's offer.

B) Redcloak flees after Xykon discovers his treachery, and being out of options, he goes to the OotS chastened and more open to negotiating.

I do think Team Evil will be exploring a unexplored dungeon, but I don't think they will immediately go to "We've been tricked!" If I had to guess they'll come up with some alternative explanation, like the dungeons refilling or something like that. RC would likely not like that explanation, and may start suspecting the MitD.

[understatement]

A) Xykon kills Redcloak, making Jirix the high priest, and he might be more open to Durkon's offer.

B) Redcloak flees after Xykon discovers his treachery, and being out of options, he goes to the OotS chastened and more open to negotiating.*

*I recognize that these are longshot possibilities, as the logical thing for Redcloak to do if Xykon gets killed is to destroy the phylactery before Xykon can regenerate and kill him.

Redcloak would absolutely win the Darwin award if he patiently waited for 1d10 days for Xykon to regenerate and kill him.

[White_Mouse]

you know what would suck? if that was one of the doors that MitD painted that actually had the gate in it!

I believe what Redcloak said about dwarves not necessary being behind a door at all, can also be said about the gate itself.
Gate might be baked into the solid cliff, just like the cleric couple, and doors be nothing more but a "how to entertain a moron for half a year" joke.

[Wraithfighter]

He would return to his phylactery to regenerate, which means he would discover Redcloak's deception. One of two things could result:

A) Xykon kills Redcloak, making Jirix the high priest, and he might be more open to Durkon's offer.

B) Redcloak flees after Xykon discovers his treachery, and being out of options, he goes to the OotS chastened and more open to negotiating.

The only problems I have with either of those options is that, well, it presumes that Redcloak allows Xykon the chance to do so. I'm not super-sure on the rules, but from what googling has shown me, it takes 10 days for a Lich's body to be fully regenerated, and while he might have some power in that intervening period...

...well, it'd give Redcloak multiple days to destroy the phylactery. Which he helped create when he was a (presumably) lower-level spellcaster. It'd be like one night's rest before he'd have enough dispels and such to remove the Phylactery's protections.

And while he might try to mollify Xykon for a while about the nature of this betrayal, they'd just be at too major of a standoff. I just can't see Xykon trusting Redcloak at all after that, mucking around with the one thing that Xykon's terrified of losing, and even if Xykon tried to pretend like he was okay with it, I just don't see Redcloak being willing to buy it, not with an alternative plan already proposed that would still literally require his help.

The only way this doesn't end with Redcloak destroying the phylactery is if he's hidden it somewhere that he can't reach easily, or is carrying it on him and loses it during a fight... although that last part might make for some interesting drama, if the tunnel they're in is so powerful that Redcloak needs help to deal with whatever beasts are inside to just get to said Phylactery.

[Peelee]

Aside, good thing the Valley floor isn't made of the same interdimensional stone that the walls of Monster Hollow are. That'd be embarrassing. Well, at least Durkon and Minrah wouldn't be embarrassed for long...

Meld Into Stone doesn't move you into other dimensions. It melds you into the stone. No reason it couldn't work with interdimensional stone.

[Metastachydium]

I believe what Redcloak said about dwarves not necessary being behind a door at all, can also be said about the gate itself.
Gate might be baked into the solid cliff, just like the cleric couple, and doors be nothing more but a "how to entertain a moron for half a year" joke.

Absolutely. „The Gate can only be accessed via destroying a fair chunk of the very cliff” is still something of a brute force solution, so the Tomb could still honor the memory of Kraagor and his methods in this case. It would just be a lot safer than it looks at the same time.

[locksmith of lo]

anyone want to wager that they find something under the stone?