OOTS #1216 - The Discussion Thread

[White_Mouse]

anyone want to wager that they find something under the stone?

Unless the spell is modded, it does not allow to see anything, only hear what's going on in the immediate vicinity. The vanilla 3.5 spell also fizzles out if stone is not a solid block, since that would break the dimension conditions.

[danielxcutter]

While I know it's unlikely that even if the dungeon's still full it won't end up killing Team Evil, I imagine many would pay good, RL money to see Xykon getting sat on by a Tarrasque or something on those lines.

[Trollkongen]

it would also be a bit funny if they found that this dungeon is full and they are not well prepared to face what ever is inside and come out battered and drained, and definitely not ready for another fight.

This. We were shown that there are dangerous monsters in the dungeons. And Redcloak stated that he is drain after the tough fights. So this would be a good opportunity for the Order of the Stick who surely is on the way to find Durkon and Minrah. The possibility of a clash with Team Evil is quite high - and could be in favor of the OOTS.

[One Skunk Todd]

I wonder if they might potentially be in trouble if this is an unexplored door. Presumably MitD and Greyview were effective party members who aren't with them now. And they have burned up some high level spell slots.

Also, I don't think we've seen the doors at either end of the canyon (that I could find in any strips, but I might have missed some) so I don't think we've seen these doors. Could the gate be under or above the statue. At least to of the others had significant markers.

[danielxcutter]

I wonder if they might potentially be in trouble if this is an unexplored door. Presumably MitD and Greyview were effective party members who aren't with them now. And they have burned up some high level spell slots.

Also, I don't think we've seen the doors at either end of the canyon (that I could find in any strips, but I might have missed some) so I don't think we've seen these doors. Could the gate be under or above the statue. At least to of the others had significant markers.

If they really get in danger I'd imagine they'd just high-tail it out.

[Metastachydium]

This. We were shown that there are dangerous monsters in the dungeons. And Redcloak stated that he is drain after the tough fights.

That was before they started to actually do up to six doors per day and live, though. If they can push through that, a single door plus the Order might not do the trick.

[drazen]

I thought the same, but looking it up it's a common enough expression. "Loaded for bear" gets around 500K hits, and "loaded to bear" gets 250K hits.

Ugh, another bastardized saying, kind of like "could care less" and "couldn't care less." Put me in the camp of loaded FOR bear... as in, you have your gun loaded for shooting bears... I've never even heard of the other version, and can't even figure out what it's even supposed to mean.

Also, perhaps a hint that Monster Hollow is one giant piece of misdirection, and I wonder if Redcloak will make that connection after this little incident peters out. I have long held a theory that Serini, not being the type to retire (per the crayon story), and who seemed to get along well with most of the party despite their squabbling, and who kept a very detailed diary about everything, somehow tried to combine ALL of the protection methods for her gate. Girard's illusions and misdirections, her own belief in might (big monsters), perhaps our invisible friends from the end of Book 6 are meant to be some sort of guardians like Lirian employed, and maybe she got Dorukan to lend her some magical aid. After all, they were only not checking in AFTER they finished building the defenses... and it's not like they actually all followed that rule, what with Lirian and Dorukan hooking up over the years.

Count me in that no way is that door really empty, though. I can't see how an empty chamber would advance the story much. Plus if it's full, it keeps Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona busy enough for the dwarves to make an expeditious retreat.

[PontificatusRex]

So it might not advance the story, but I would love to see some Team Evil dungeon crawling, especially since they are not nearly as prepared as normal.

[Doug Lampert]

Meld into Stone is technically a transmutation effect, so if True Seeing makes identifying such effects possible („[t]he subject (…) sees the true form of (…) transmuted things”), shouldn't Redcloak be able to realize that the stone has been tampered with via using his True Seeing?

The stone is not the target of the transmutation effect, thus there is no transmutation to see on the stone. The caster is transmuted, and enters the stone, but has only a tenuous connection to the surface and can't see out, so he probably can't be seen inside of it. There's no reason to think the surface is in any way transmuted. It is not a target of the spell, and the caster is in the interior of the stone.

[Trollkongen]

That was before they started to actually do up to six doors per day and live, though. If they can push through that, a single door plus the Order might not do the trick.

That's true. But they aren't specially prepared for dungeon crawl (of course, maybe they wanted to do some this day, so they are quite prepared) and the lack the Monster in the Dark, which might have a significant impact in the dungeon battles. But yeah, six doors a day is incredible.

[Ghosty]

I wonder if they might potentially be in trouble if this is an unexplored door. Presumably MitD and Greyview were effective party members who aren't with them now. And they have burned up some high level spell slots....

Greyview's there. Not that he'd likely be the difference between party wipe and flawless victory, but he's there.

Where is the MITD, OTOH, is an interesting question.

[HeroErix]

...perhaps our invisible friends from the end of Book 6 are meant to be some sort of guardians like Lirian employed...

I doubt that considering the "Existing was fun" dialogue that to me indicates that they are part of a plan that will end the world, not protect the gate. Though since they didn't outright kill the paladins, I am not sure what their goals are exactly.

edit: spelling

[Lord Torath]

Ugh, another bastardized saying, kind of like "could care less" and "couldn't care less." Put me in the camp of loaded FOR bear... as in, you have your gun loaded for shooting bears... I've never even heard of the other version, and can't even figure out what it's even supposed to mean.

"Loaded to bear" makes me think of structural (ie load-bearing) columns. Also non-load-bearing ones. "Loaded to bear" makes me go "loaded to bear what?

I mean, "bare" has two meanings: "naked, revealed, or uncovered" and "to make naked, to reveal, or to uncover." "Bear" has all the rest of them, (like "Bear with me; there is no bear!") to carry/support, to endure, and also a large fur-covered mammal with claws and jaws. But none of those meaning really fit with "Loaded to bear" without additional clarification.

[pendell]

I don't know whether this will prove to be the real door or not, but it would make sense from a storytelling perspective, if it was. I believe the storytelling purpose of the doors was to keep Team Evil occupied while our characters were busy on a side quest to the godsmoot and then to the dwarven lands. Now that the heroes are here , it makes sense to ratchet up the tension and the stakes by allowing Team Evil to find their goal, so that the heroes and Team Evil can have their final battle with the fate of the world at stake.

Otherwise, the logical plan for OOTS is to follow Team Evil at a discrete distance until TE encounters the Tarrasque or something. Then, hit TE while it's low on HP and spells for the day. If TE never reaches that point, then OOTS simply follows them forever.

So, yes. It's time to repair the broken bridge and allow both sides into the final dungeon. I don't know whether this will particularly be the moment when that happens, but it ought to be soon.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jaziggy]

I'm not sure what everyone is so worried about.

I estimate no greater than a 10% chance of this being a door MitD has marked. Further, even were it full of monsters, the majority of doors that MitD has marked are simple challenges well within an acceptable range of difficulty for the forces Xykon has arranged here. Frankly, they likely relish the opportunity to garner a few experience points in such a conflict. The chance of them opening the door with the gate behind it is infinitesimally low.

[Anitar]

I like how everyone (except Xykon) is being clever here. It's a refreshing change from the way most stories (and at least half of what Elan does) rely on their characters making bad decisions.

[Zonkerbl]

Still a bad plan they planned for.

Zonkerbl: MitD was making extra X's. Might yet be occupied.

Dun dun dun!

[Goblin_Priest]

I like how this time it was the lawful one who figured out the shell game.

Well he's the one who thought of it first, to attack Azure City.

Also, not sure if anyone before me mentioned it (probably), but that marked entranced might not have been actually cleared, which 1) might make Team Evil realize what MitD did, and 2) soften up Team Evil before Roy's ambush. Especially since they went in there already having used up spell slots and without MitD.

Edit: The other potential dramatic outcome is if this door actually leads to the Gate, since they'd never have opened it if it weren't for Durkon. That's quite a possibility.

[Dire_Flumph]

I estimate no greater than a 10% chance of this being a door MitD has marked. Further, even were it full of monsters, the majority of doors that MitD has marked are simple challenges well within an acceptable range of difficulty for the forces Xykon has arranged here. Frankly, they likely relish the opportunity to garner a few experience points in such a conflict. The chance of them opening the door with the gate behind it is infinitesimally low.

And even if Xykon did find out that his progress to date has been reset and he'll have to start all over again, I'm sure his response will be, "Bitter, but rational disappointment".

[slowplay]

Oona. So good.

Is there a list of unresolved plot points? I'm trying to remember all of them and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

[b_jonas]

This is great. As everyone points out, the dungeon behind this door is probably one that Team Evil has't cleared yet, and they'll find that out soon. I think Team Evil will assume that Durkon and Minrah drew extra crosses as an additional deception, besides opening extra doors. They won't suspect the MitD's involvement at all. (Frozenstep, Jason and Baine agree.)

"Monster Hollow important to bugbear clan. Hunt a little, tame a little. Wait, then monsters come back, start all over." 1039 Multiple Choicel

Good point. Just look at how Dorukan's Dungeon filled with monsters when Xykon left it for a short time between #147 and #192.

catagent101: Nice detailed research matching up the doors, thank you.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ugh, another bastardized saying, kind of like "could care less" and "couldn't care less." Put me in the camp of loaded FOR bear... as in, you have your gun loaded for shooting bears... I've never even heard of the other version, and can't even figure out what it's even supposed to mean.

Mostly with you on this, though since Durkon did grow up in or near a mining community at Firmament, perhaps the phrase his 'aunt' might have use vis a vis "loaded to bear" for beams in a mine would be among his common phrases ... maybe.

The stone is not the target of the transmutation effect, thus there is no transmutation to see on the stone. The caster is transmuted, and enters the stone, but has only a tenuous connection to the surface and can't see out, so he probably can't be seen inside of it. There's no reason to think the surface is in any way transmuted. It is not a target of the spell, and the caster is in the interior of the stone.

Thanks for that explanation, makes sense.

I doubt that considering the "Existing was fun" dialogue that to me indicates that they are part of a plan that will end the world, not protect the gate. Though since they didn't outright kill the paladins, I am not sure what their goals are exactly.

Or they are some form of (mostly) incorporeal spirit ... more questions than answers.

I like how everyone (except Xykon) is being clever here. It's a refreshing change from the way most stories (and at least half of what Elan does) rely on their characters making bad decisions.

Yes, nice to see the competence level increasing ...

Well he's the one who thought of it first, to attack Azure City.

Also, not sure if anyone before me mentioned it (probably), but that marked entranced might not have been actually cleared, which 1) might make Team Evil realize what MitD did, and 2) soften up Team Evil before Roy's ambush. Especially since they went in there already having used up spell slots and without MitD.

Edit: The other potential dramatic outcome is if this door actually leads to the Gate, since they'd never have opened it if it weren't for Durkon. That's quite a possibility.

[Riftwolf]

Redcloak would absolutely win the Darwin award if he patiently waited for 1d10 days for Xykon to regenerate and kill him.

Do phylacteries get the save bonuses of the Lich, or are they unattended objects? If the latter, Redcloak could Plane Shift the phylactery to the Positive Energy Plane and found the Gobbotopia Arcane Academy as his backup plan.

[Ghosty]

"Loaded to bear" makes me think of structural (ie load-bearing) columns. Also non-load-bearing ones. "Loaded to bear" makes me go "loaded to bear what?

I mean, "bare" has two meanings: "naked, revealed, or uncovered" and "to make naked, to reveal, or to uncover." "Bear" has all the rest of them, (like "Bear with me; there is no bear!") to carry/support, to endure, and also a large fur-covered mammal with claws and jaws. But none of those meaning really fit with "Loaded to bear" without additional clarification.

How about "to bear" meaning, 'to point at a target'? E.g., "Bring all guns to bear on that ship." Loaded to bear would be more aggressive under that interpretation than, "Loaded for bear." They're actually pointed down a bearing at something.

'Loaded for bear' means the subject is prepared in case a big dangerous animal like a bear shows up. It doesn't mean the bear's actually there, but it does mean that if a bear shows up it's going to have a bad day. Further, it has the connotation that the subject is prepared for much more dangerous threats than usual.

[Nail]

So raise your hand if you think they just accidentally led them to the right door by a horrible accident.

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[Malfarian]

What a brilliant and plausible fix to the conundrum.

Now the question is will Roy and gang jump them as they leave the dungeon?

We know they will find monsters, use spell slots etc and discover the deception of the MITD.

This will let the clerics rejoin the party and get rested ... BUT will they take advantage and also attack?

so much awesome!

[drf5n]

"And look! Door is being closed but snow still smushed aside" --Oona's contribution.

After they determine this dungeon has not been cleared, maybe they could notice how many X'd doors had not been opened?

[Peelee]

"And look! Door is being closed but snow still smushed aside" --Oona's contribution.

After they determine this dungeon has not been cleared, maybe they could notice how many X'd doors had not been opened?

I was just wondering about that! Unless it's been snowing consistently, the cleared doors shouldn't have snow buildup around their swing radius.

[t209]

Seems that Oona might be sympathetic to the main characters.
Even if she was a good tracker, she would have known about their ploys.

[Alcore]

If they would just listen to the smart guy they would already have robbed them of cleric power