OOTS #1216 - The Discussion Thread

[elros]

I think it's more likely that they're going to go into a dungeon they haven't cleared yet, revealing the MitD's misdirection, but not necessarily his hand in it.


MitD was painting X's on doors they hadn't gone through yet to slow them down.

I believe the Giant is setting us up exactly for that, but I am not sure what Team Evil will do when they figure out it. That's why I keep coming back to this WebComic- the writing keeps me engaged in the story!

[Alcore]

Even if they've just walked into a Dungeon they haven't finished, doesn't mean they'd immediately accuse MitD of wrongdoing. There's at least three more plausible answers before Team Evil would conclude 'MitD has agency'

indeed. Oona is with them to ensure the place still has monsters afterwards. Meaning that the dungeon(s) are somehow repopulating or the Bugbears would of already had a sizable chunk of the doors and levels cleared. Remember; the village food/tool/leather gathering relies on this one sprawling dungeon.


It might not be swift but I don't think the dungeon requires keepers to restock (unless they never left)

[BloodSquirrel]

Well, Xykon is doing his thing (working towards performing the Ritual) right now, so I'd say he performs adequately.

That still has a very, very good chance of blowing up in his face. Xykon is at least suspicious enough that he had Tsukiko researching his half of the ritual, and, quite frankly, I think Redcloak is vastly overestimating how much leverage he has over Xykon. The Plan is everything for Redcloak. For Xykon... it's just something to do because he's bored. He could very well be planning on waiting for the moment before casting the ritual to tell Redcloak that he knows that it won't do what Redcloak is claiming, just to screw with him.

[Fyraltari]

Thanks. Now I've got the mental image of Roy as a tsundere schoolgirl, "Xykon no baka!". (^_~)

[KorvinStarmast]

I didn't read all posts so this could be already posted, but I'm putting it out here in case I need to brag in the future: Team Cleric just melted inside multidimensional rocks. Dwarven affinity for rock works combined with Roy's ranks in Architecture, will lead them to the gate.

There's a neat permutation. We'll see if the valley floor is anything other than regular rock in a few strips, I suspect.

He could very well be planning on waiting for the moment before casting the ritual to tell Redcloak that he knows that it won't do what Redcloak is claiming, just to screw with him.

It would fit his personality, as displayed on screen.

[Metastachydium]

That still has a very, very good chance of blowing up in his face. Xykon is at least suspicious enough that he had Tsukiko researching his half of the ritual, and, quite frankly, I think Redcloak is vastly overestimating how much leverage he has over Xykon. The Plan is everything for Redcloak. For Xykon... it's just something to do because he's bored. He could very well be planning on waiting for the moment before casting the ritual to tell Redcloak that he knows that it won't do what Redcloak is claiming, just to screw with him.

I think you might be overestimating Xykon's intellect. I'm inclined to subscribe to the view expressed by many that while Xykon is not at all dumb, he is not the mastermind you seem to take him for. Long term planning, in particular, is generally not Xykon's forte, and he does not care much about strategizing, either.
At any rate, Redcloak is aware that Xykon cannot and should not be trusted, and made arrangements for the inevitable (v. stealing the phylactery).

[Aetius]

Well, Xykon is doing his thing (working towards performing the Ritual) right now, so I'd say he performs adequately.

He did manage to manipulate Xykon in that regard. But it was a straight forward deal based on a blatant lie. How's that subtle?

About the marks on the door, MitD asked explicitly at least once to paint the doors. If this is what happens usually, they will have no problem to track the problem to it.

They go dungeon delving once a day. In between there should be a lot of time when both the doors and the red paint are unattended. And red paint can be acquired by other means too.
So basically everyone in the village or any enemy possibly staking out Team evil could have done it during that time.

In fact, MitD kept rambling about how much he loves O-Chul near-constatntly while they were in G. City, and he still seems to do do that on occasion (e.g. we know he told Oona just that). Redcloak might have more to work from than we realise.

Point taken - even though I don't recall any of these ramblings.
That still would only make him one of many suspects.

[Kardwill]

Even if someone is boasting - there's just no point in using wrong terms on purpose. You'd just risk being found out right away.
It only makes sense if Han himself doesn't know what those fancy space words mean. Which doesn't seem likely given his occupation.

We do know that Han tends to trip over himself when he tries to bull**** someone. Like, real bad. And he's cocky. I can totally see him doing such a rookie mistake while bluffing some unimportant country bumpkins, and then getting a lecture by Chewie. ^^

[Jacky720]

Spoiler: France

Show

But does the sun ever set on it?

[Goblin_Priest]

So I'm thinking this is a dungeon that they didn't actually clear, xykon is under prepared, and the whole can of worms is opened. 2 maybe, or more even.

MITD scheme is revealed. RC's scheme is revealed, some other ace xykon has is revealed if he has one.

This has a lot of plot potential, and while it seems perhaps too soon for the stuff to hit the fan, maybe it will and the plot will go in a direction we had not considered.

No matter what, I'm loving it even if it does go well, and they go into a dungeon already cleared and they just go "shucks" and move on to a new thing.

Meld Into Stone doesn't put them in the Ethereal Plane, or Astral Plane or any other plane. They are still on the Material Plane, not passing into or through any other dimension. They are simply melding into the stone. So there's no reason that multidimensional stone would hamper this, unless it has addition al effects we do not know of.

Would you say... a million to one?

Team Evil doesn't have MitD. They don't have pre-buffs. They already used spells. And they aren't on their guards (if anything, they'll be rushing into what they expect to be an easy encounter).

The Gate being this door makes the most dramatic sense, though I wouldn't wager on this being the only potential outcome. It gives additional meaning to MitD's actions (his sabotage would have worked). It gives additional consequences to Durkon's rogue operation (it leads Team Evil to the Gate, upping the ante). It can soften up Team Evil enough for the Order to be able to deal with them in a more believable and satisfying way (instead of just "they got great/awful rolls, which imo the fight against Durkula largely was). It actually brings the story to the Gate, which finding is otherwise statistically near impossible and eternally long, and without which we would likely never get to. I find it really hard to imagine satisfying resolutions to many plot hooks if Team Evil never actually makes it to the Gate, and I find it hard to think of a better context for them to stumble upon it.

[Aetius]

Thanks. Now I've got the mental image of Roy as a tsundere schoolgirl, "Xykon no baka!". (^_~)

Thanks for sharing.

We do know that Han tends to trip over himself when he tries to bull**** someone. Like, real bad. And he's cocky. I can totally see him doing such a rookie mistake while bluffing some unimportant country bumpkins, and then getting a lecture by Chewie. ^^

Okay, I can buy that.

[Metastachydium]

He did manage to manipulate Xykon in that regard. But it was a straight forward deal based on a blatant lie. How's that subtle?

How about the time he convinced Xykon to let 'em stay in Azure City and rearrange the furniture for months?

Point taken - even though I don't recall any of these ramblings.

Permit me to list a few instances. Also he spent quite some time conversing with the prisoner and playing games with him.

That still would only make him one of many suspects.

Granted.

[HeroErix]

Indeed. Depending on how much positive energy is present they (living normal people) will "over heal" and (presumably) slowly explode as their skin blisters, warps and bulges from the continually growing flesh beneath. Mechanically it is the same as stepping into a camp fire and just sitting there...

That was an image that I really didn't need in my head.

What if Durkon and Minrah find the gate doing this

In order for the spell to work they needed to meld into stone large enough to hold them, so it's not like they went down into another empty space. And they can't see out of the stone they are in, so I don't think there is anyway that they discover anything new with this.

Edit: I guess unless it is some weird interaction with the stone being multidimensional, but I'd bet against it.

Also occurred to me that if Oona is still tracking, she'll notice that the dwarves never actually entered the cave.

I was thinking this as well. Honestly given the level of detail that she got from the tracks already, I am surprised that she didn't notice that the door was closed from the outside.

the laws of narrative demand that the door they picked is the right gate...

Even if this dungeon is the one with the gate, I don't think they are even getting to the end of it. Even with the idea that others have posted about the monsters coming back over time, Team Evil is clearly expecting it to be empty. They aren't prepared for dungeon diving right now so I think they will turn around once they hit resistance.

[Fyraltari]

But does the sun ever set on it?

It doesn't, as a matter of fact.

[Aetius]

How about the time he convinced Xykon to let 'em stay in Azure City and rearrange the furniture for months?

Far better example, yes. On par with MitD preventing Xykon from hanging around at Girrard's Gate.

Permit me to list a few instances. Also he spent quite some time conversing with the prisoner and playing games with him.

Much obliged.
Interestingly enough RC wasn't around to witness any of these.
Though to be fair: It does seem to establish a pattern the MitD might continue off screen.

[ebarde]

Depending on the layout of the dungeon, there might just straight up not be anything for tracks to be left on though

[Xihirli]

Spoiler: SOD

Show

Xykon literally died for this plan, and was working to continue it even when Redcloak was willing to stop and focus on helping goblins that actually exist. I think he’s more invested than you might be giving him credit for.

Also, as to Oona’s detail, she really only noticed tracks left in snow - including one from a door opening. Once they’re in the tunnel and presumably out of the snow, she wouldn’t expect any tracks.

[Hopeless]

I'm wondering if this chase ending fruitlessly will cause Xykon to lose his temper and cast his maximised dispel magic?

I still think the Gate is actually high above them explaining the canyon full of doors designed to keep anyone from looking above to where the rest of that ground surface is currently floating?!

Imagine Xykon casts that causing it to to fall back to the ground and they're underneath it... Xykon is killed, Redcloak manages a word of recall to transport outside of the canyon and that's when Xykon reappears since Redcloak is carrying his phylactery...

Still like the idea that melding with stone might reveal something hidden from those above ground.

Anyone consider Oona and co were set up there along with the monsters behind those doors by halfling responsible for safeguarding this Gate?

[Metastachydium]

I'm wondering if this chase ending fruitlessly will cause Xykon to lose his temper and cast his maximised dispel magic?

I still think the Gate is actually high above them explaining the canyon full of doors designed to keep anyone from looking above to where the rest of that ground surface is currently floating?!

Imagine Xykon casts that causing it to to fall back to the ground and they're underneath it... Xykon is killed, Redcloak manages a word of recall to transport outside of the canyon and that's when Xykon reappears since Redcloak is carrying his phylactery...

If what happened to a number of previous Gates is anything to go by, the fall would probably break this one, and the world would kind of end. I'm not expecting anything quite as drastic as that to happen at this point.

[JonahFalcon]

(singing)
I meld to stone when you are gone
I meld to stone
I meld to stone, when you comin' home
I can't go on

------

On a side note, I wonder if this is one of the dungeons MitD fake-marked.

[Peelee]

It doesn't, as a matter of fact.

You are clearly not trusted in the dark.

BTW, that was a super cool map!

[Fyraltari]

You are clearly not trusted in the dark.

The world isn't ready for the kind of food we'd make if no-one was watching us.

BTW, that was a super cool map!

Wikipedia is good at what it does.

[BloodSquirrel]

I think you might be overestimating Xykon's intellect. I'm inclined to subscribe to the view expressed by many that while Xykon is not at all dumb, he is not the mastermind you seem to take him for. Long term planning, in particular, is generally not Xykon's forte, and he does not care much about strategizing, either.

Thinking that way has literally gotten several characters killed. Xykon's entire MO in that regard is that he doesn't both 99% of the time, and he doesn't let anyone on to the other 1% until he's ready to spring the trap on them.

Case in point: Redcloak "manipulating" Xykon into sticking around Azure City. Redcloak thought he had far more control over Xykon in that regard than he actually did. He failed to understand that, for Xykon, delaying the plan was low-cost. Xykon could afford to screw around. But as soon as Xykon decided that he didn't feel like indulging Redcloak anymore, he brought down the hammer. They left when Xykon wanted to leave, not when Redcloak wanted to.

I really can't think of a single counter-example in the comic where Xykon gets serious and Redcloak talks him out of what he wants to do. Every one of Redcloak's schemes to manipulate Xykon has either failed or has yet to be tested.

[Metastachydium]

Thinking that way has literally gotten several characters killed. Xykon's entire MO in that regard is that he doesn't both 99% of the time, and he doesn't let anyone on to the other 1% until he's ready to spring the trap on them.

I only remember one such example.

Case in point: Redcloak "manipulating" Xykon into sticking around Azure City. Redcloak thought he had far more control over Xykon in that regard than he actually did. He failed to understand that, for Xykon, delaying the plan was low-cost. Xykon could afford to screw around. But as soon as Xykon decided that he didn't feel like indulging Redcloak anymore, he brought down the hammer. They left when Xykon wanted to leave, not when Redcloak wanted to.

Disagreed. The only major mistake Redcloak made there was not accounting for the possibility of V's deal with the fiends. Were Darth!V not to breach their defenses, were it not for the phylactery getting lost and O-Chul escaping as a consequence of that, Xykon probably would not have gotten serious about it for another few months.

[BriarHobbit]

This is really good. There is some subtle work going on. Notice how Oona is barely in the frame when Red Cloak identifies the two dwarf priests as being part of the adventuring party trying to stop Xykon. I was originally concerned that the warg would fail to pick up the scent or at least note that it stopped at the doorway. Instead, Xykon reports that the "furball" has picked up a non-existent trail. I can't imagine a warg, whose sense of smell is incredible in classic D&D, mistaking the smell of two dwarves with something else. Accordingly, I think that Auntie Oona is playing a deeper game.

There are a lot of elements still to unfold. For example, the IFCC's mostly new minions have not yet been revealed, and Belkar can't die until he saves Hinjo's life a second time. Now, arguably killing Durkula might fulfill that prophecy but that seems attenuated. We also don't know the secret of the tomb's hidden guardians or why a halfling would write an encrypted tell all diary that could fall in the hands of Team Evil. I admit that I find it hard to believe that Xykon would have the patience to decode an encrypted diary.

[Arathorne]

Excuse me, we have the full four seasons here - Summer, tornado season, lesser summer, and tornado season.

and some parts of your state call a tornado season "high water, tropical storm and hurricane season"

[Doug Lampert]

I do like the way Durkon and Minrah manage to find a smart way to escape while delaying Team Evil.

And i totally think as many others this is an uncleared door and this will lead Tema Evil to understand what is going on with the MitD or at least suspect something.








And here i thought my equatorial weather was annoying.

Peelee is exaggerating. Occasionally it gets annoyingly cold and white stuff falls from the sky. On even rarer occasions the white stuff builds up deposits on the ground. Fortunately, this rarely lasts long as while it's happening my sisters are busy ridiculing us for shutting down due to a quarter inch of white stuff on the ground. But who knows what that stuff is or what it could do?

[Edited to add] The weather is actually pretty nice most of the time, a bit hot and humid in the summer, but I can live with that. The problem is that something like 90% of the worlds' entire supply of tornadoes, and an even higher fraction of the really powerful ones, hit in what's called Tornado Alley in the USA, and we're in a high risk area even for that. Tornadoes are odd. Individual buildings can go centuries without being hit, other buildings get hit a year or two after they're built and then the rebuilt structure gets hit. Trailer parks and Churches are particularly vulnerable, and often provide nice pictures for the TV news to show of "devastation" for even a relatively minor tornado. If it weren't for modern pest control, termites would be a much higher risk factor for most construction. (Trailers are vulnerable for obvious reasons, churches because they have very large enclosed spaces and the pressure differentials can destroy them even on a near miss by the actual tornado.)

[bertrc]

Xykon is super powerful but his achilles' heel is his low Wisdom score. But doesn't he need a high int score to be a lich?

Xykon was a sorcerer in life. CHA based, not INT.

[bertrc]

This is really good. There is some subtle work going on. Notice how Oona is barely in the frame when Red Cloak identifies the two dwarf priests as being part of the adventuring party trying to stop Xykon. I was originally concerned that the warg would fail to pick up the scent or at least note that it stopped at the doorway. Instead, Xykon reports that the "furball" has picked up a non-existent trail. I can't imagine a warg, whose sense of smell is incredible in classic D&D, mistaking the smell of two dwarves with something else. Accordingly, I think that Auntie Oona is playing a deeper game.

There are a lot of elements still to unfold. For example, the IFCC's mostly new minions have not yet been revealed, and Belkar can't die until he saves Hinjo's life a second time. Now, arguably killing Durkula might fulfill that prophecy but that seems attenuated. We also don't know the secret of the tomb's hidden guardians or why a halfling would write an encrypted tell all diary that could fall in the hands of Team Evil. I admit that I find it hard to believe that Xykon would have the patience to decode an encrypted diary.

As long as we are considering shell games, has anybody considered that the halfling from the order of the scribble may be playing a huge con? Maybe the gate is directly below the dwarven statue.

[KorvinStarmast]

As long as we are considering shell games, has anybody considered that the halfling from the order of the scribble may be playing a huge con? Maybe the gate is directly below the dwarven statue.

That's been suggested before and is a near to 0 in probability, particularly since the statue just got up and moved within the last few strips and no gate appeared.