Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

[Valmark]

You are ignoring rules.

Per the Ranged Attacks rule is the thrown javelin a projectile or not?

I'm not. The problem here isn't wether the thrown javelin is a projectile or not- the problem here is when it becomes a projectile.

[ThorOdinson]

Yes, you are sending projectiles as part of the process of making an attack. The rules don't specify when in that process you actually send the projectile, only that it occurs. It's perfectly valid to rule that you do so after the damage roll has been made.

How are you striking the foe at a distance if you are not sending projectiles?

[Garhi]

How are you striking the foe at a distance if you are not sending projectiles?

I said flat out that you are sending projectiles, just that you are doing so as part of the process of making a ranged attack. I'm honestly baffled how you could possibly read what I wrote and come to the conclusion that I'm saying "you are not sending projectiles."

The words "Yes, you are sending projectiles" are literally in the quote.

[ThorOdinson]

I said flat out that you are sending projectiles, just that you are doing so as part of the process of making a ranged attack. I'm honestly baffled how you could possibly read what I wrote and come to the conclusion that I'm saying "you are not sending projectiles."

The words "Yes, you are sending projectiles" are literally in the quote.

In order to attack the foe at a distance, you need to send projectiles, correct?

Also "part of the process of making a ranged attack" is not what the Ranged Attacks rule says.

'Sending projectiles to strike a foe at a distance" is wholly descriptive of what happens "when you make a ranged attack" in the Ranged Attacks rule.

Once again, you are trying to reference a secret pamphlet of rules not in the PHB.

[Garhi]

In order to attack the foe at a distance, you need to send projectiles, correct?

No, you send projectiles as part of the process of making the attack. You do not first send projectiles, and then make an attack.

[ThorOdinson]

No, you send projectiles as part of the process of making the attack. You do not first send projectiles, and then make an attack.

You don't otherwise have permission to strike a foe at a distance unless you send projectiles.

The Ranged Attack rules do not say "part of the process of making a ranged attack".

'Sending projectiles to strike a foe at a distance' is wholly descriptive of what happens 'when you make a ranged attack"

[Segev]

How are you defining "projectile"? You are not using "projectile" according to english semantics.

I am using "projectile" according to English semantics. You have not shown that I am not, nor have you defined how you're using it differently than I am. Asserting that I'm using it wrong without support makes your argument weak and easily rejected.

Explain clearly how I am misusing "projectile" in such a way that it is "not English semantics." Then explain how "English semantics" support your claims.

My argument is that the rules do what they say they do.

So is mine. Unfortunately, after you claim that the rules do what they say they do, you start house ruling immediately, adding lots of text that isn't there in order to change the rules from saying one thing to saying what you claim they do.

I, on the other hand, read them directly and apply them. The character throws the weapon to make an attack, wielding it in one hand to do so. The player resolves the attack by following the appropriate steps (rolling to hit, and, if it hits, rolling damage). The attack is performed with the weapon wielded in one hand, so Dueling applies. When the attack is done, the weapon has been thrown, and thus is no longer in-hand.

You keep trying to talk about "the javelin becomes a projectile and is by definition no longer wielded in one hand," but you provide no support for this. You never provide the definition for "projectile" that says "a projectile is not wielded in one hand." Since you do not provide this, I reject your claim that the definition of "projectile" means "not wielded in one hand." If you wish to prove me wrong, you must provide a definition of "projectile" that actually says what you claim it does, or you are simply house ruling.

We have traced the rules to the point where a thrown javelin becomes a projectile by the Ranged Attacks rule. That means the thrown javelin is not "in one hand". The Dueling fighting style does not apply.

Please show me the rules that state that a projectile is not "in one hand." Alternatively, please shoe me where in the definition of "projectile" it says that a projectile is "not in one hand." You keep asserting this is "by definition," but you have yet to provide a definition that uses those words.

The Ranged Attacks rule says you the player controlling the character "send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance".

If I take your very literal reading of the RAW to heart, it states that you "send projectiles," not "send a projectile." Does this mean that you cannot attack with a single projectile at range, but must attack with at least two?

More to the point, however, the full quote is: "When you make a ranged attack, you ... send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance." You keep trying to house rule it to be backwards, saying that you throw THEN make an attack. But it's the opposite. You first make a ranged attack, and when you do so, you then "send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance."

Because you have already made the ranged attack before you send the projectile, if you were wielding the weapon in one hand when you made the attack, the projectile was wielded in one hand and dueling applies.

In this case we have been discussing the foe is at a distance of 30 feet.

Irrelevant.

How else are you the player controlling the character striking the foe at a distance if you are not sending projectiles?

See above, but tl;dr: When you make a ranged attack, you send projectiles. You have to wield the projectiles to make the attack. If you are wielding them in one hand to make the attack, dueling applies.

The rest of this stuff you're adding to make the projectile not be wielded is all house ruling on your part, because you ignore the sentence that says, "When you make a ranged attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance," and try to claim that somehow it being a projectile makes it not wielded in one hand when the rules say nothing of the sort.

[ThorOdinson]

I am using "projectile" according to English semantics. You have not shown that I am not, nor have you defined how you're using it differently than I am. Asserting that I'm using it wrong without support makes your argument weak and easily rejected.

Explain clearly how I am misusing "projectile" in such a way that it is "not English semantics." Then explain how "English semantics" support your claims.

So is mine. Unfortunately, after you claim that the rules do what they say they do, you start house ruling immediately, adding lots of text that isn't there in order to change the rules from saying one thing to saying what you claim they do.

I, on the other hand, read them directly and apply them. The character throws the weapon to make an attack, wielding it in one hand to do so. The player resolves the attack by following the appropriate steps (rolling to hit, and, if it hits, rolling damage). The attack is performed with the weapon wielded in one hand, so Dueling applies. When the attack is done, the weapon has been thrown, and thus is no longer in-hand.

You keep trying to talk about "the javelin becomes a projectile and is by definition no longer wielded in one hand," but you provide no support for this. You never provide the definition for "projectile" that says "a projectile is not wielded in one hand." Since you do not provide this, I reject your claim that the definition of "projectile" means "not wielded in one hand." If you wish to prove me wrong, you must provide a definition of "projectile" that actually says what you claim it does, or you are simply house ruling.

Please show me the rules that state that a projectile is not "in one hand." Alternatively, please shoe me where in the definition of "projectile" it says that a projectile is "not in one hand." You keep asserting this is "by definition," but you have yet to provide a definition that uses those words.

If I take your very literal reading of the RAW to heart, it states that you "send projectiles," not "send a projectile." Does this mean that you cannot attack with a single projectile at range, but must attack with at least two?

More to the point, however, the full quote is: "When you make a ranged attack, you ... send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance." You keep trying to house rule it to be backwards, saying that you throw THEN make an attack. But it's the opposite. You first make a ranged attack, and when you do so, you then "send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance."

Because you have already made the ranged attack before you send the projectile, if you were wielding the weapon in one hand when you made the attack, the projectile was wielded in one hand and dueling applies.

Irrelevant.

See above, but tl;dr: When you make a ranged attack, you send projectiles. You have to wield the projectiles to make the attack. If you are wielding them in one hand to make the attack, dueling applies.

The rest of this stuff you're adding to make the projectile not be wielded is all house ruling on your part, because you ignore the sentence that says, "When you make a ranged attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance," and try to claim that somehow it being a projectile makes it not wielded in one hand when the rules say nothing of the sort.

The thrown javelin is a projectile.

A projectile is any object thrown by the exertion of a force.

By the definition of "projectile" and "throw" the thrown javelin is not "in one hand".

Therefore, the Dueling fighting style does not apply its bonus when it comes to making damage rolls.

More to the point, however, the full quote is: "When you make a ranged attack, you ... send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance." You keep trying to house rule it to be backwards, saying that you throw THEN make an attack. But it's the opposite. You first make a ranged attack, and when you do so, you then "send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance."

Your read is incorrect.

Send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance is wholly descriptive of what happens "when you make a ranged attack according to the Ranged Attacks rule.

There is no first do X then Y. The logic is "when you do X you do Y.

So when you are making a ranged attack the javelin is being sent as a projectile.

You cannot ignore that the javelin is a projectile, except by house rule.

[Segev]

The thrown javelin is a projectile. A projectile is any object thrown by the exertion of a force. By the definition of "projectile" and "throw" the thrown javelin is not "in one hand". Therefore, the Dueling fighting style does not apply its bonus when it comes to making damage rolls.

Your second sentence does not lead logically to the third. Please explain the how the definition of "projectile" and "throw" preclude a thrown projectile being wielded in one hand to throw it.

You have not shown that it is not wielded in one hand when you attack with it. The rules clearly state that you throw it when you attack, not before.

Your house rule that it is not in hand when you throw it is not anywhere in the rules. If it is, please cite for me where it says that you cease to wield it in one hand before you attack with it.

[ThorOdinson]

More to the point, however, the full quote is: "When you make a ranged attack, you ... send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance." You keep trying to house rule it to be backwards, saying that you throw THEN make an attack. But it's the opposite. You first make a ranged attack, and when you do so, you then "send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance."

Your read is incorrect.

Send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance is wholly descriptive of what happens "when you make a ranged attack according to the Ranged Attacks rule.

There is no first do X then Y. The logic is "when you do X you do Y.

So when you are make a ranged attack the javelin is sent as a projectile to strike a foe at a distance.

You cannot ignore that the javelin is a projectile, except by house rule.

[Valmark]

The thrown javelin is a projectile.

A projectile is any object thrown by the exertion of a force.

By the definition of "projectile" and "throw" the thrown javelin is not "in one hand".

Therefore, the Dueling fighting style does not apply its bonus when it comes to making damage rolls.

Your read is incorrect.

Send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance is wholly descriptive of what happens "when you make a ranged attack according to the Ranged Attacks rule.

There is no first do X then Y. The logic is "when you are doing X you are doing Y.

So when you are making a ranged attack the javelin is being sent as a projectile.

You cannot ignore that the javelin is a projectile, except by house rule.

Oh, I see that you changed your argument that throwing happens before the attack! Must be nice to be able to pretend that you had a totally different take on the matter until now.

The fact that it's being sent as a projectile doesn't exclude it being wielded in one hand when you roll for damage.

And why is it "wholly descriptive" if you are basing your argument on that description?

[ThorOdinson]

Your second sentence does not lead logically to the third. Please explain the how the definition of "projectile" and "throw" preclude a thrown projectile being wielded in one hand to throw it.

You have not shown that it is not wielded in one hand when you attack with it. The rules clearly state that you throw it when you attack, not before.

Your house rule that it is not in hand when you throw it is not anywhere in the rules. If it is, please cite for me where it says that you cease to wield it in one hand before you attack with it.

Whether or not the wind up to the throw involved the weapon being wielded in one hand is entirely irrelevant. In order for you to get the Dueling fighting style bonus, the javelin has to be wielded in one hand when damage rolls are made, not just at some earlier time prior to the damage roll.

If the thrown javelin is a ranged attack it is a projectile per the Ranged Attacks. Projectiles are by definition thrown [past tense] objects. The projectile is not "in one hand".

If you deny that the thrown javelin is a projectile, then you are not making a ranged attack and must use the melee attack rules.

[Segev]

Your read is incorrect.

Send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance is wholly descriptive of what happens "when you make a ranged attack according to the Ranged Attacks rule.

There is no first do X then Y. The logic is "when you do X you do Y.

So when you are make a ranged attack the javelin is sent as a projectile to strike a foe at a distance.

You cannot ignore that the javelin is a projectile, except by house rule.

Nobody is ignoring that the javelin is a projectile. You are ignoring that the javelin is only thrown when you make an attack, which is why you are house ruling in this separate step that somehow makes it stop being wielded by one hand before the attack is made.

Whether or not the wind up to the throw involved the weapon being wielded in one hand is entirely irrelevant. In order for you to get the Dueling fighting style bonus, the javelin has to be wielded in one hand when damage rolls are made, not just at some earlier time prior to the damage roll.

If the thrown javelin is a ranged attack it is a projectile per the Ranged Attacks. Projectiles are by definition thrown [past tense] objects. The projectile is not "in one hand".

If you deny that the thrown javelin is a projectile, then you are not making a ranged attack and must use the melee attack rules.

I believe you meant "Dueling" rather than "Defensive," so bolded and replaced it. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see what the Defensive style has to do with this discussion.

No. Projectiles are not by definition thrown-in-the-past-tense. You have provided no citation for this claim. The throw is the attack, so the thrown projectile is wielded in one hand when you attack with it, by definition. The definition of "wield" is "to use skillfully," and you cannot "use" a projectile that you have already thrown. You cannot attack with a projectile that you have already thrown. It's no longer under your control; you can do nothing at all with it unless and until you retrieve it.

The rules state clearly that, when you make a ranged attack, you send projectiles. WHEN you make the ranged attack, you SEND projectiles. Therefore, when you are attacking, you are throwing it. It is wielded in however many hands you use to throw it.

You have not cited any rules that support your claim that the damage is rolled after the attack has already been completed. The rules for attacks do not say this. They only say that you resolve the attack by rolling to hit, and, if you hit, rolling damage, and that after it is resolved, you are no longer holding that which you threw to make the attack.

Your house rule is that you ignore that you have to attack by throwing, instead inventing this mechanic whereby you've already thrown it before you can even start to attack.

By the way the rules are written, you are wielding the weapon when you make the attack, and when you make the attack, you are throwing it. At no point do the rules state, "You stop wielding the weapon in any hands before damage is rolled." That is your own house rule.

[Valmark]

Whether or not the wind up to the throw involved the weapon being wielded in one hand is entirely irrelevant. In order for you to get the Defensive fighting style bonus, the javelin has to be wielded in one hand when damage rolls are made, not just at some earlier time prior to the damage roll.

If the thrown javelin is a ranged attack it is a projectile per the Ranged Attacks. Projectiles are by definition thrown [past tense] objects. The projectile is not "in one hand".

If you deny that the thrown javelin is a projectile, then you are not making a ranged attack and must use the melee attack rules.

You seem unable to provide a quote that proves that you stopped wielding the javelin by the time you roll for damage. Your absolute statement is invalid as long as you cannot provide it.

Either you provide a quote from the book that proves your claim or your argument on this specific matter will just be as valid as ours.

[ThorOdinson]

Nobody is ignoring that the javelin is a projectile. You are ignoring that the javelin is only thrown when you make an attack, which is why you are house ruling in this separate step that somehow makes it stop being wielded by one hand before the attack is made.

I believe you meant "Dueling" rather than "Defensive," so bolded and replaced it. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see what the Defensive style has to do with this discussion.

No. Projectiles are not by definition thrown-in-the-past-tense. You have provided no citation for this claim. The throw is the attack, so the thrown projectile is wielded in one hand when you attack with it, by definition. The definition of "wield" is "to use skillfully," and you cannot "use" a projectile that you have already thrown. You cannot attack with a projectile that you have already thrown. It's no longer under your control; you can do nothing at all with it unless and until you retrieve it.

The rules state clearly that, when you make a ranged attack, you send projectiles. WHEN you make the ranged attack, you SEND projectiles. Therefore, when you are attacking, you are throwing it. It is wielded in however many hands you use to throw it.

You have not cited any rules that support your claim that the damage is rolled after the attack has already been completed. The rules for attacks do not say this. They only say that you resolve the attack by rolling to hit, and, if you hit, rolling damage, and that after it is resolved, you are no longer holding that which you threw to make the attack.

Your house rule is that you ignore that you have to attack by throwing, instead inventing this mechanic whereby you've already thrown it before you can even start to attack.

By the way the rules are written, you are wielding the weapon when you make the attack, and when you make the attack, you are throwing it. At no point do the rules state, "You stop wielding the weapon in any hands before damage is rolled." That is your own house rule.

Making a ranged attack by definition is sending a projectile to strike a foe at a distance. If the weapon is still "in one hand" then you are not making a ranged attack. You need to use the melee attack rules for weapons that are still "in one hand".

You seem unable to provide a quote that proves that you stopped wielding the javelin by the time you roll for damage. Your absolute statement is invalid as long as you cannot provide it.

Either you provide a quote from the book that proves your claim or your argument on this specific matter will just be as valid as ours.

Wielding has nothing to do with the argument. Remember we are concerned just about whether the weapon in question is "in one hand" when damage rolls are made. Since the javelin is sent as a projectile to strike a target from a distance when you make a ranged attack with it, the javelin is quite clearly no longer in any hand.

Ranged attacks are projectiles (thrown objects)sent to strike a foe at a distance.

If the weapon is still "in one hand" by the time damage rolls are made you have not made a ranged attack. You have made a melee attack.

[ff7hero]

If the weapon is still "in one hand" by the time damage rolls are made you have not made a ranged attack. You have made a melee attack.

Huh, weird. I didn't realize shooting someone with a sling or hand crossbow was a melee attack...

In other words:
As far as I can tell you have concocted all of this. Do you have a citation for this or is this just a favorite house rule of yours?

[ThorOdinson]

Huh, weird. I didn't realize shooting someone with a sling or hand crossbow was a melee attack...

In other words:
As far as I can tell you have concocted all of this. Do you have a citation for this or is this just a favorite house rule of yours?

Context matters. Or are you saying context does not matter?

Wielding has nothing to do with the argument. Remember we are concerned just about whether the weapon in question is "in one hand" when damage rolls are made. Since the javelin is sent as a projectile to strike a target from a distance when you make a ranged attack with it, the javelin is quite clearly no longer in any hand.

Ranged attacks are projectiles (thrown objects)sent to strike a foe at a distance.

[Segev]

You have not provided citation for your definition of "projectile" or "ranged" that says that the weapon is not "in one hand" when you attack with it.

We all agree that the weapon is no longer in your hand after the attack is finished.

What you seem to be unable to prove is your assertion that it is not in one hand when you throw it.

I am not surprised you cannot prove this. If a weapon is on the ground at my feet, I cannot throw it without first picking it up and thus putting it in at least one hand. If I release a weapon from my hand, I am no longer able to throw it. In order for me to throw it, it must be in at least one of my hands.

Your house rules seem to rely on a strange definition of "projectile" and "throw" that magically cause them to fly through the air without the wielder touching them.

[Garhi]

The form "When you do A, you do B" can be read as "You do B as a result of having done A" or it can be read as "You do both A and B at the same time." It can't possibly be read as "You first do B, then you do A."

"A", in this case, is a multi step process outlined in the rules for "Making an Attack."

"B" is shooting the bow, throwing the weapon, or otherwise sending projectiles.

Because the rules don't specify a particular point in process "A" that "B" occurs, all we know for certain is that "B" happens at some point during or after process "A."

Ruling that "B" happens after the damage roll is a perfectly valid reading of RAW. If you don't believe this TO, please cite RAW that says otherwise, so far you have not done so despite being asked several times by multiple people.

[ThorOdinson]

You have not provided citation for your definition of "projectile" or "ranged" that says that the weapon is not "in one hand" when you attack with it.

We all agree that the weapon is no longer in your hand after the attack is finished.

What you seem to be unable to prove is your assertion that it is not in one hand when you throw it.

I am not surprised you cannot prove this. If a weapon is on the ground at my feet, I cannot throw it without first picking it up and thus putting it in at least one hand. If I release a weapon from my hand, I am no longer able to throw it. In order for me to throw it, it must be in at least one of my hands.

Your house rules seem to rely on a strange definition of "projectile" and "throw" that magically cause them to fly through the air without the wielder touching them.

According to you there is no rule that requires the javelin to leave the hand, correct?

[Valmark]

According to you there is no rule that requires the javelin to leave the hand, correct?

They've been consistently saying that there is no rule that says that the javelin leaves the hand before the damage roll.

[ThorOdinson]

They've been consistently saying that there is no rule that says that the javelin leaves the hand before the damage roll.

Is there a rule that says the javelin leaves the hand?

Simple yes or no answer please.

[Valmark]

Is there a rule that says the javelin leaves the hand?

Simple yes or no answer please.

Both options are incomplete- there is a rule but it doesn't say that it happens before the damage roll.

[ThorOdinson]

Both options are incomplete- there is a rule but it doesn't say that it happens before the damage roll.

Please cite the rule or rules in context that direct the player to have the weapon leave the hand.

[Valmark]

Please cite the rule or rules in context that direct the player to have the weapon leave the hand.

They've been quoted repeatedly, so you can go read them yourself. Since you quoted those yourself.

[ThorOdinson]

They've been quoted repeatedly, so you can go read them yourself. Since you quoted those yourself.

This rule requires the javelin leave the hand, correct?

"When you make a ranged Attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a Handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance. A monster might shoot spines from its tail. Many Spells also involve making a ranged Attack."

The underlined part is where the player is directed to have the weapon leave the hand, correct?

[JNAProductions]

Can you actually state your argument, TO?

[Valmark]

This rule requires the javelin leave the hand, correct?

"When you make a ranged Attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a Handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance. A monster might shoot spines from its tail. Many Spells also involve making a ranged Attack."

The underlined part is where the player is directed to have the weapon leave the hand, correct?

Yes, which doesn't say the weapon leaves the hand before rolling damage.

[ThorOdinson]

Yes, which doesn't say the weapon leaves the hand before rolling damage.

So according to you, the player makes an attack, rolls a hit, rolls damage and then "sends projectiles to strike a foe at a distance" to have the javelin leave his hand and wind up on the ground somewhere not in his hand anymore, correct?

[Aett_Thorn]

This rule requires the javelin leave the hand, correct?

"When you make a ranged Attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a Handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance. A monster might shoot spines from its tail. Many Spells also involve making a ranged Attack."

The underlined part is where the player is directed to have the weapon leave the hand, correct?

So let me ask you this, TO, do you fire a bow before or after you make the attack? Because this seems like it has the same makeup as a javelin attack. So do you need to fire the bow first, then make a ranged attack? Or do they happen at the same time?