New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 10 of 50 FirstFirst 123456789101112131415161718192035 ... LastLast
Results 271 to 300 of 1483
  1. - Top - End - #271
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    For the same reason you cannot find game rules that support your claim that it ceases to be wielded between the attack roll and the damage roll.

    You're the one insisting that's the only way to read the RAW. We agree with you that it is a technically-valid way to read the RAW (even if it is semantically and colloquially nonsensical and leads to undesirable game-states to do so). You're the one insisting that there is no other way to interpret the RAW.

    Colloquially, it is silly to say, "The ninja stopped wielding the shuriken in order to throw it at the samurai."
    If you recall, I have long indicated that my argument does not rely on a definition of "wield".

    We can agree that in the case of a thrown weapon that it is "wielded" even when it is striking the target and delivering damage and not in one hand.

  2. - Top - End - #272
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    If you recall, I have long indicated that my argument does not rely on a definition of "wield".

    We can agree that in the case of a thrown weapon that it is "wielded" even when it is striking the target and delivering damage and not in one hand.
    You keep walking around the same circles. We've answered your questions. You demand citations while not providing any of your own (or explaining how they support your claims).

    The sole point of disagreement right now is whether yours is the only interpretation of the RAW that fits the RAW, or not. You have not provided any evidence that it does. The rules citations you have provided support the ruling and interpretation you keep claiming are "house rules," and you have not provided citation to support it. When challenged on this, you try to discuss the definition of "wield." When your definition is shown to be inaccurate with how "wield" is commonly used, you say your argument doesn't center around the definition of "wield." I expect your next step, if the pattern holds, will be to try to walk us through the argument for why you feel that a thrown weapon is no longer wielded by the time damage is dealt.

    We've discussed that to death. We agree: you can interpret the rules that way, if you wish. We disagree that it is the only way to interpret them, and you've still yet to provide citations from the RAW which specify that only your interpretation applies.

  3. - Top - End - #273
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Nope. No one has ever quoted any rule to support their claims about game rule constructs.

    Feel free to open up the PHB and do so now.
    "Returning Weapon
    Prerequisites: A simple or martial weapon with the thrown property
    This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it, and it returns to the wielder's hand immediately after it is used to make a ranged attack."

    From Eberron Rising From The Last War, was quoted twice. It specifically calls somebody that threw a weapon as its wielder. If you go back through the posts you'll find the quote from JNA and Zhorn.

  4. - Top - End - #274
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    You keep walking around the same circles. We've answered your questions. You demand citations while not providing any of your own (or explaining how they support your claims).

    The sole point of disagreement right now is whether yours is the only interpretation of the RAW that fits the RAW, or not. You have not provided any evidence that it does. The rules citations you have provided support the ruling and interpretation you keep claiming are "house rules," and you have not provided citation to support it. When challenged on this, you try to discuss the definition of "wield." When your definition is shown to be inaccurate with how "wield" is commonly used, you say your argument doesn't center around the definition of "wield." I expect your next step, if the pattern holds, will be to try to walk us through the argument for why you feel that a thrown weapon is no longer wielded by the time damage is dealt.

    We've discussed that to death. We agree: you can interpret the rules that way, if you wish. We disagree that it is the only way to interpret them, and you've still yet to provide citations from the RAW which specify that only your interpretation applies.
    Semantically, we have agreed that a thrown weapon that strikes a target and delivers is "wielded" even though it is not in one hand when it strikes the target and delivers the damage.
    Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-17 at 05:59 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #275
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    "Returning Weapon
    Prerequisites: A simple or martial weapon with the thrown property
    This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it, and it returns to the wielder's hand immediately after it is used to make a ranged attack."

    From Eberron Rising From The Last War, was quoted twice. It specifically calls somebody that threw a weapon as its wielder. If you go back through the posts you'll find the quote from JNA and Zhorn.
    Right, and you have agreed that the thrown weapon is "wielded" when it strikes the target and delivers damage even though it is not in one hand when it strikes the target and delivers damage, correct?

  6. - Top - End - #276
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Semantically, we have agreed that a thrown weapon that strikes a target and delivers is "wielded" even though it is not in one hand when it strikes the target and delivers the damage.
    We have not agreed that it has changed how many hands are wielding it when it strikes the target.

    “How many hands does it take to wield a shuriken?” “Well, that ninja wielded one in each hand.”

    At no point does it make semantic or colloquial sense to claim the ninja was wielding the shuriken in zero hands.

  7. - Top - End - #277
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Right, and you have agreed that the thrown weapon is "wielded" when it strikes the target and delivers damage even though it is not in one hand when it strikes the target and delivers damage, correct?
    ...am I missing a point? Haven't you asked the same thing six times now?

    On a general language level, yes.
    On a RAI level, yes and is also still considered in one hand until both attack and damage are resolved.
    On a RAW level, yes and there is no explicit section that says it stops being in one hand until the attack and damage are resolved. At least none has been found. Obviously the opposite is true also, there is no section that says it stays in-hand until fully resolved. Which is what Segev is saying, both rulings are RAW.

  8. - Top - End - #278
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    We have not agreed that it has changed how many hands are wielding it when it strikes the target.

    “How many hands does it take to wield a shuriken?” “Well, that ninja wielded one in each hand.”

    At no point does it make semantic or colloquial sense to claim the ninja was wielding the shuriken in zero hands.
    By your own assertion "wielding" doesn't mean "hold in hand" so when you throw a dart and it hits a target and delivers its damage it is "wielded" while the dart is not in one hand.

  9. - Top - End - #279
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    ...am I missing a point?
    On a RAI level, yes and is also still considered in one hand until both attack and damage are resolved.
    Do you have a rule citation that supports this assertion?

  10. - Top - End - #280
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Do you have a rule citation that supports this assertion?
    You can't cite a rule for the RAI- there is homewever the tweet that has been shown previously from Crawford.

  11. - Top - End - #281
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Astral Seal!

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    By your own assertion "wielding" doesn't mean "hold in hand" so when you throw a dart and it hits a target and delivers its damage it is "wielded" while the dart is not in one hand.
    It is, in the mechanics, considered to be wielded in the hand that threw it until the attack is done. What’s hard to grasp about that?
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
    Show

    Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
    Show

  12. - Top - End - #282
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    You can't cite a rule for the RAI- there is homewever the tweet that has been shown previously from Crawford.
    JC Tweets have been officially declared as unofficial house rule recommendations. They are not official until they appear in the Sage Advice Compendium.

  13. - Top - End - #283
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Astral Seal!

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    JC Tweets have been officially declared as unofficial house rule recommendations. They are not official until they appear in the Sage Advice Compendium.
    But they do indicate the RAI.

    You can claim they’re not RAW and be accurate.
    But you can’t claim that the developers saying something doesn’t indicate RAI.

    Moreover, you’ve yet to prove that your reading is the only possible correct one. It is a technically correct reading, but not the ONLY one.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
    Show

    Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
    Show

  14. - Top - End - #284
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    It is, in the mechanics, considered to be wielded in the hand that threw it until the attack is done. What’s hard to grasp about that?
    If it is in the mechanics then you should be able to provide a citation to show that it is indeed in the mechanics. What is so hard about providing a citation showing the mechanic you claim is present?

  15. - Top - End - #285
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    But they do indicate the RAI.

    You can claim they’re not RAW and be accurate.
    But you can’t claim that the developers saying something doesn’t indicate RAI.

    Moreover, you’ve yet to prove that your reading is the only possible correct one. It is a technically correct reading, but not the ONLY one.
    You can use the JC Tweet if that meets your standard. The tweets however do not meet the official standard

    JC Tweets have been officially declared as unofficial house rules. The official FAQ is the contents of the current Sage Advice Compendium. The JC Tweet is not in the current Sage Advice Compendium.
    Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-17 at 06:22 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #286
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Maine
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    You can use the JC Tweet if that meets your standard. The tweets however do not meet the official standard

    JC Tweets have been officially declared as unofficial house rules. The official FAQ is the contents of the current Sage Advice Compendium. The JC Tweet is not in the current Sage Advice Compendium.
    What in the world is official standard?
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  17. - Top - End - #287
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    By your own assertion "wielding" doesn't mean "hold in hand" so when you throw a dart and it hits a target and delivers its damage it is "wielded" while the dart is not in one hand.
    That is not what I said. I said that it makes no semantic sense to claim that it ceases to be wielded mid-throw. I also said that there is nothing in the RAW that says that the number of hands wielding it changes between the attack roll and the damage roll. You've yet to provide citations from the RAW which prove me wrong, here. Since I am asserting a negative ("There is nothing in the RAW that...") I cannot cite rules that call it out. However, proving my negative assertion incorrect is as simple as citing rules that do, in fact, say what I claim the rules are silent on.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    If it is in the mechanics then you should be able to provide a citation to show that it is indeed in the mechanics. What is so hard about providing a citation showing the mechanic you claim is present?
    Neither JNAProductions nor I (nor any other poster in here) has asserted that your interpretation of the RAW - that it can change the number of hands in which it is wielded between the attack roll and damage roll - is a house rule. It is a valid, if questionable to us, way to rule the RAW work.

    We are also claiming that a valid interpretation of the RAW - and therefore non-house-rule-ruling - is that the weapon is wielded in the number of hands it is wielded in from start to finish of the attack, changing state only when the attack is resolved.

    You have asserted that that is a house rule. In order to justify that assertion, it is you who must provide a citation that supports your claim. Please show me in the RAW where it says that the number of hands in which a thrown weapon is wielded changes specifically between the attack roll and the damage roll.

  18. - Top - End - #288
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    What in the world is official standard?
    Books and SAC according to AL, says TO. Nevermind that they called an AL Discord's channel as irrelevant but a reply on StackExchange somehow mattering (reply that said that both rulings are applicable and then deferred to JC).

  19. - Top - End - #289
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Zhorn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Space Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    What in the world is official standard?
    Books and SAC according to AL, says TO. Nevermind that they called an AL Discord's channel as irrelevant but a reply on StackExchange somehow mattering (reply that said that both rulings are applicable and then deferred to JC).
    Essentially if TO thinks they can use it to support their specific view then they'll treat it as acceptable... up until it is shown to support a counter argument or demonstrate an intended interpretation that goes against their very specific definition, in which case it would no longer be valid for any reason.

  20. - Top - End - #290
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    That is not what I said. I said that it makes no semantic sense to claim that it ceases to be wielded mid-throw. I also said that there is nothing in the RAW that says that the number of hands wielding it changes between the attack roll and the damage roll. You've yet to provide citations from the RAW which prove me wrong, here.
    I have made neither assertion.

    I have agreed that it is "wielded" when it is thrown and it hits the target and deals damage even though it is not in one hand when it hits the target and deals damage.

    Also, I have made no claim that the number of hands wielding it changes between the attack roll and the damage roll. We are talking about a thrown weapon so the weapon is wielded when it hits the target and deals damage and it is not in one hand (or any hand) when it hits the target and deals damage.

  21. - Top - End - #291
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    the weapon is wielded in the number of hands it is wielded in from start to finish of the attack, changing state only when the attack is resolved.
    For reference this is a house rule. There is no such rule in the PHB.

  22. - Top - End - #292
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Also, I have made no claim that the number of hands wielding it changes between the attack roll and the damage roll. We are talking about a thrown weapon so the weapon is wielded when it hits the target and deals damage and it is not in one hand (or any hand) when it hits the target and deals damage.
    Yes, the point is that there is nothing RAW that explicitely says the number of hands changes or not during the attack.

  23. - Top - End - #293
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Yes, the point is that there is nothing RAW that explicitely says the number of hands changes or not during the attack.
    Throwing a weapon involves the weapon not being in one hand or any hand when it hits and damages its target, correct?

  24. - Top - End - #294
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2014

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    I have made neither assertion.

    I have agreed that it is "wielded" when it is thrown and it hits the target and deals damage even though it is not in one hand when it hits the target and deals damage.

    Also, I have made no claim that the number of hands wielding it changes between the attack roll and the damage roll. We are talking about a thrown weapon so the weapon is wielded when it hits the target and deals damage and it is not in one hand (or any hand) when it hits the target and deals damage.
    Is your claim that a character can both attack and do damage with a weapon that is not in their hand?

  25. - Top - End - #295
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellack View Post
    Is your claim that a character can both attack and do damage with a weapon that is not in their hand?
    I am saying that when a thrown weapon hits the target and deals damage it is not in one hand (or any hand).

  26. - Top - End - #296
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2014

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    I am saying that when a thrown weapon hits the target and deals damage it is not in one hand (or any hand).
    That is not what I asked. Is it your position that a character may both attack and do damage with a weapon that is not in their hand? I do not want to misunderstand your position.

  27. - Top - End - #297
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellack View Post
    That is not what I asked. Is it your position that a character may both attack and do damage with a weapon that is not in their hand? I do not want to misunderstand your position.
    I am saying that when a thrown weapon hits the target and deals damage it is not in one hand (or any hand).

    As long as the character has permission to make a ranged attack (the Thrown weapon property gives them that permission) they can throw the weapon and roll to hit.

    "Thrown: If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that Attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee Attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a Handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a Dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the Dagger has the finesse property."
    Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-17 at 08:56 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #298
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Throwing a weapon involves the weapon not being in one hand or any hand when it hits and damages its target, correct?
    IRL yes, but the rules don't support the change of hands during the attack for mechanical purposes- or at least they don't say they do.

  29. - Top - End - #299
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2014

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    I am saying that when a thrown weapon hits the target and deals damage it is not in one hand (or any hand).

    As long as the character has permission to make a ranged attack (the Thrown weapon property gives them that permission) they can throw the weapon and roll to hit.

    "Thrown: If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that Attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee Attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a Handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a Dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the Dagger has the finesse property."
    But you are still not answering what I am asking.

    Here I will break it down into simple yes/no questions about each step.

    1. Can a character attack with a weapon that is not in their hand?

    2. Can a character do damage with a weapon that in sot in their hand?

    I am not asking about any "hit" or such. I am asking about two mechanical resolution steps in the game. Can you answer the simple questions please?

  30. - Top - End - #300
    Banned
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    IRL yes, but the rules don't support the change of hands during the attack for mechanical purposes- or at least they don't say they do.
    Where do the rules say this? Where are these rule mechanics you speak of? Citation please.

    The rules explicitly allow a draw to be made as part of the action used to make an attack. Draws involve a change in hands (from zero hands to two hands)

    "You can also interact with one object or feature of The Environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to Attack."

    So the rules don't agree with you.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •