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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    It's important to remember that D&D is a terrible fantasy world simulator, so mixing simulation and mechanics arguments is going to get you in trouble more often than not. Yes, it's a bit counter intuitive to think that you're still somehow holding the thrown weapon when it strikes the target, but the mechanics model it this way because it's just easier to do so. Obviously, this isn't what "actually" happens, but as far as the rules of the game go, that is actually what happens. As with many things in 5e, you can refluff it how you like, as long as it makes sense to give the same outcome.
    I find it easiest to think of it in terms of what the character has control over, if wedding the concept of mechanical advantages he has to the simulation of what he's doing. Once he lets go of the javelin, he has no control over it. All his control is expired, and it's moving on a pre-calculated trajectory he initiated while he controlled it. Thus, if the damage being dealt in any way is connected to his actions (e.g. by his Strength score, or his proficiency bonus making it more likely to hit), it happens while he's holding it. The dueling fighting style represents greater skill at doing harm when fighting under its requirements. It, like his proficiency bonus and his strength score, applies because anything he is doing that would be represented by the dueling style is happening before he lets go of it.

    As you say, there's no mechanical point where he's not wielding the javelin but the javelin is doing damage. The attack happens while he's wielding it (or he can't make the attack), and the damage step is simply part of the attack.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    From a mechwnics perspective, the first question to ask should always be: does it need this boost?

    The answer is definitely not. Dueling is either the best or tied for best fighting style, even restricted to melee attacks. Its only downside is you cannot easily switch to effective ranged attacks, be it via magic or bow/crossbow.

    On the flip side of that is: do characters with built in limited range options (S&B characters) already lag behind, so that they need a boost on thrown attacks? Not in my experience, but then I ran games heavy on underground and densely packed wildern3ss terrains. Some others have indicated they find range to be king.

    Then there's the mechanical consideration of what the rule says. IMO that shouldn't really be a point of debate: if you attack with a weapon you're clearly wielding it. Its only when you dont attack that it becomes a question of if you are wielding it
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2020-10-07 at 02:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    From a mechwnics perspective, the first question to ask should always be: does it need this boost?

    The answer is definitely not. Dueling is either the best or tied for best fighting style, even restricted to melee attacks. Its only downside is you cannot easily switch to effective ranged attacks, be it via magic or bow/crossbow.

    On the flip side of that is: do characters with built in limited range options (S&B characters) already lag behind, so that they need a boost on thrown attacks? Not in my experience, but then I ran games heavy on underground and densely packed wildern3ss terrains. Some others have indicated they find range to be king.

    Then there's the mechanical consideration of what the rule says. IMO that shouldn't really be a point of debate: if you attack with a weapon you're clearly wielding it. Its only when you dont attack that it becomes a question of if you are wielding it
    All valid points of consideration. The biggest reason, I think, that there's question here is simply that the word "dueling" suggests to us that it's supposed to be melee-only, while the mechanics all line up behind a deliberate choice to make melee weapons with the thrown property viable candidates for it.

    Heck, I was surprised to learn you could use Dueling with shields. Sword-and-board with Dueling is pretty nice, I think.

    I don't think there'd be any question of the mechanics as written working with thrown melee weapons if the style weren't called "dueling," but I think the notion that sword-and-board works with it is as jarring as the notion that thrown weapons work with it.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    I would also argue that while Dueling might not need a boost* that allows it to be used with throwing weapons, throwing weapons definitely need a boost. so having them work with dueling is better for them than it is for dueling. Unless the Devs at some point create a throwing weapon style (which they should), then there is nothing that boosts those kinds of attacks without this.



    *And I don't think that this is a boost for dueling, since it's already supposed to work with them.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    All valid points of consideration. The biggest reason, I think, that there's question here is simply that the word "dueling" suggests to us that it's supposed to be melee-only, while the mechanics all line up behind a deliberate choice to make melee weapons with the thrown property viable candidates for it.

    Heck, I was surprised to learn you could use Dueling with shields. Sword-and-board with Dueling is pretty nice, I think.

    I don't think there'd be any question of the mechanics as written working with thrown melee weapons if the style weren't called "dueling," but I think the notion that sword-and-board works with it is as jarring as the notion that thrown weapons work with it.
    I think it definitely a case of using a very well known but general term for an even more general mechanical feature.
    Duelist isn't any given style as much as a social agreement. As Monty Python taught us we can duel with anything including fish.
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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    I think it definitely a case of using a very well known but general term for an even more general mechanical feature.
    Duelist isn't any given style as much as a social agreement. As Monty Python taught us we can duel with anything including fish.
    Indeed. Dueling with pistols was actually a common practice long after dueling with swords fell out of fashion.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    I think we are losing sight of something basic here.

    The rules are very persnickety about whether a hand is occupied due to spellcasting and the dueling style also cares about whether or not a weapon is being wielded in hand.

    At what point is a hand free to fulfill somatic components (e.g. cast Shield or Absorb Elements) when making a ranged attack?

    Is the hand free immediately upon making a ranged attack or is the hand holding the weapon and unavailable for somatic use for the entire duration of the ranged attack?

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    I think we are losing sight of something basic here.

    The rules are very persnickety about whether a hand is occupied due to spellcasting and the dueling style also cares about whether or not a weapon is being wielded in hand.

    At what point is a hand free to fulfill somatic components (e.g. cast Shield or Absorb Elements) when making a ranged attack?

    Is the hand free immediately upon making a ranged attack or is the hand holding the weapon and unavailable for somatic use for the entire duration of the ranged attack?
    I don't know what you are asking here. When would a player cast a spell mid attack roll resolution?
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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    I don't know what you are asking here. When would a player cast a spell mid attack roll resolution?
    It matters.

    Opponent casts Shield in response to getting damaged by my thrown javelin. Is my hand available for Counterspelling his shield?

    If a Monk tries to deflect your thrown weapon, are they prevented from doing so because the thrown weapon is still considered in hand?
    Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-07 at 07:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Then there's the mechanical consideration of what the rule says. IMO that shouldn't really be a point of debate: if you attack with a weapon you're clearly wielding it. Its only when you dont attack that it becomes a question of if you are wielding it
    If you weren't already wielding it you could not have thrown it (and thrown is a property of that weapon)


    If a Monk tries to deflect your thrown weapon, are they prevented from doing so because the thrown weapon is still considered in hand?
    Sorry, once it is thrown, it is obviously not 'in hand' but that isn't the question in the first place.

    I find your attempt to redefine what 'wield' means to be unsatisfactory. Go back to "if you were not already wielding a weapon with the thrown property you can't have thrown it."

    Try not to overcomplicate this. That kind of thinking is for earlier editions. I lived through all of them, except 4th. That one got a pass.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-07 at 08:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    If you weren't already wielding it you could not have thrown it (and thrown is a property of that weapon)


    Sorry, once it is thrown, it is obviously not 'in hand' but that isn't the question in the first place.

    I find your attempt to redefine what 'wield' means to be unsatisfactory. Go back to "if you were not already wielding a weapon with the thrown property you can't have thrown it."

    Try not to overcomplicate this. That kind of thinking is for earlier editions. I lived through all of them, except 4th. That one got a pass.
    The rules are very particular - some would even say overcomplicated - about hands. If a hand is wielding a weapon it is not available to Counterspell the Shield that interrupts your ranged weapon attack.

    So is the hand free to Counterspell or not?

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    All valid points of consideration. The biggest reason, I think, that there's question here is simply that the word "dueling" suggests to us that it's supposed to be melee-only, while the mechanics all line up behind a deliberate choice to make melee weapons with the thrown property viable candidates for it.

    Heck, I was surprised to learn you could use Dueling with shields. Sword-and-board with Dueling is pretty nice, I think.

    I don't think there'd be any question of the mechanics as written working with thrown melee weapons if the style weren't called "dueling," but I think the notion that sword-and-board works with it is as jarring as the notion that thrown weapons work with it.
    Agreed. I was surprised to learn it worked with a shield for the same reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    I would also argue that while Dueling might not need a boost* that allows it to be used with throwing weapons, throwing weapons definitely need a boost. so having them work with dueling is better for them than it is for dueling. Unless the Devs at some point create a throwing weapon style (which they should), then there is nothing that boosts those kinds of attacks without this.
    Right. It depends what we're looking at. Taken alone considering only fighting styles, Dueling is generally considered the most powerful fighting style even when restricted to melee attacks, mainly because it works with S&B. Taken alone, thrown weapons are generally the weakest of weapon attacks, mainly because it takes an object interaction to throw more than one.

    Considered as part of the overall package of what a S&B character can do when they can't get close enough for melee, compared to say a GWM or Defensive with 2 handed weapon character ... maybe the boost to thrown weapons is needed, maybe it isn't. Those other two can easily free up a hand for a cantrip (especially EK or Waradin/Sorcadin), or switch to a Longbow by dropping weapon and using an object interaction (Some Champs and most Rangers IMX). Protection and S&B defensive get to keep using their style even if they switch up to thrown too. Only a Str GWM with no Dex and no cantrips gets hosed in that situation.

    *And I don't think that this is a boost for dueling, since it's already supposed to work with them.
    Ya, it'd be just as fair to call it a nerf not to apply it to thrown one handed melee weapons.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    So is the hand free to Counterspell or not?
    Are you assuming that whomever threw the javelin is high enough level to use Counterspell, and, is of a class that has Counterspell on their spell list?
    If so, why?
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-07 at 08:23 PM.
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    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Are you assuming that whomever threw the javelin is high enough level to use Counterspell, and, is of a class that has Counterspell on their spell list?
    If so, why?
    The rules apply at level 1 and level 20.

    So is the hand free to Counterspell?

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    The rules apply at level 1 and level 20.

    So is the hand free to Counterspell?
    If the PC has not already used their reaction, it ought to be, and if the PC has the Warcaster feat this might be irrelevant.
    But would I waste a level 3 spell on this?
    Only reason I can think of is when the javelin in question is a javelin of lightning (and I were a paladin) which case puts the +2 from that somewhere in the noise level.

    Since you aren't specifying the class, we go back to Thor arguing for the sake of arguing which has its own attractions ... some of the time.

    Since you don't seem to understand why I asked, I'll leave it there.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-07 at 08:34 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    If the PC has not already used their reaction, it ought to be, and if the PC has the Warcaster feat this might be irrelevant.
    But would I waste a level 3 spell on this?
    Only reason I can think of is when the javelin in question is a javelin of lightning (and I were a paladin) which case puts the +2 from that somewhere in the noise level.

    Since you aren't specifying the class, we go back to Thor arguing for the sake of arguing which has its own attractions ... some of the time.

    Since you don't seem to understand why I asked, I'll leave it there.
    If the hand is free to Counterspell then it is not "wielding a melee weapon in one hand". This means that the Dueling fighting style can not apply.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    That throw weapon > Shield reaction > Counterspell reaction case is getting just a bit too niche to be practical.

    If the thrown weapon attack has enough damage to be worth a 3rd level spell slot to ensure it gets through, that +2 damage is hardly worth worrying about.
    If the +2 damage is a significant enough amount of damage in this situation, and the attacker has access to a 3rd level spell, they would be better off using that 3rd level spell to cause the damage directly instead.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    If the hand is free to Counterspell then it is not "wielding a melee weapon in one hand". This means that the Dueling fighting style can not apply.
    Failed attempt. Reaction happens on another creatures turn, or is otherwise based on something another creature does. Since the javelin has already left one's hand before the need for a reaction to cast counterspell arises,(they had to use their reaction to cast shield) there is no problem in the D&D 5e action economy (and again, with warcaster the point is moot). That is the same action economy that allows the following whether you like it or not,
    I can cast fireball,
    you can cast counterspell,
    and I can cast counterspell to your counterspell (we each used one reaction to do so) and the fireball goes off. (roll your dex save!)

    But now neither of us can make an Opportunity attack nor cast shield (until our next turn) since our reaction has been consumed.

    And that means that the mean old bugger in the corner with the javelin of lightning whose turn is coming up just might do for me.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-07 at 09:13 PM.
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    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    It probably isn't free to counterspell, no. The attack isn't over yet. And it takes an action (object interaction) to free a hand for counterspelling if you're just holding a weapon in hand. Since the action taht would have freed the hand isn't yet over, it's not free.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    It probably isn't free to counterspell, no. The attack isn't over yet. And it takes an action (object interaction) to free a hand for counterspelling if you're just holding a weapon in hand. Since the action taht would have freed the hand isn't yet over, it's not free.
    See above for why I disagree.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    So is the hand free to Counterspell?
    Not sure we have anything definitive here, but I would say yes. You can only cast Shield after getting hit by the attack, thus the attack has already been resolved and the weapon is no longer being wielded by you.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Not sure we have anything definitive here, but I would say yes. You can only cast Shield after getting hit by the attack, thus the attack has already been resolved and the weapon is no longer being wielded by you.
    Good point.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    It matters.

    Opponent casts Shield in response to getting damaged by my thrown javelin. Is my hand available for Counterspelling his shield?

    If a Monk tries to deflect your thrown weapon, are they prevented from doing so because the thrown weapon is still considered in hand?
    In order to be hit by the javelin the attack has to be made which means it has been thrown. If it has been thrown the hand is free for reactions. The weapon is considered in hand for the actual attack roll not anything afterwards.
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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Are shields “weapons” in 5e? If not, this seems way better than the “armored fighting” style that only gives +1 for armor. This is +2 and let’s you have a shield!
    Shields are not weapons, no. And your shield's would stack with the extra ac from the armored fighting style.
    I usually post from my phone, so please excuse any horrendous typos.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    In order to be hit by the javelin the attack has to be made which means it has been thrown. If it has been thrown the hand is free for reactions. The weapon is considered in hand for the actual attack roll not anything afterwards.
    Cool. So then we are in agreement that if the hand is free for Counterspell then the hand is not "wielding a weapon in one hand" which means of course that the Dueling fighting style does not apply in the case of thrown weapon.
    Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-08 at 05:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Cool. So then we are in agreement that if the hand is free for Counterspell then the hand is not "wielding a weapon in one hand" which means of course that the Dueling fighting style dies not apply in the case of thrown weapon.
    Nope. You are equating the time during the attack with the time after the attack. Dueling applies during the attack. Shield (and the ensuing Counterspell) take place after the attack.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Cool. So then we are in agreement that if the hand is free for Counterspell then the hand is not "wielding a weapon in one hand" which means of course that the Dueling fighting style dies not apply in the case of thrown weapon.
    This post gave me psychic damage and disadvantage on my next wisdom saving throw.
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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellack View Post
    Nope. You are equating the time during the attack with the time after the attack. Dueling applies during the attack. Shield (and the ensuing Counterspell) take place after the attack.
    Dueling applies to damage rolls which are dependent on attacks that hit.

    Shield is a reaction that interrupts the resolution of whether the attack hits. Shield turns hits into misses.

    Is the hand available to Counterspell or not? The hand cannot be simultaneously free to Counterspell and wielding a weapon in one hand for the subsequent damage resolution.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Dueling applies to damage rolls which are dependent on attacks that hit.

    Shield is a reaction that interrupts the resolution of whether the attack hits. Shield turns hits into misses.

    Is the hand available to Counterspell or not? The hand cannot be simultaneously free to Counterspell and wielding a weapon in one hand for the subsequent damage resolution.
    You said it yourself: shield turns [already resolved] hits into misses. The attack is done. That it’s damage is changed to zero by being made a “miss” doesn’t change that the attack had hit prior to the casting of Shield.

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    Default Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Dueling applies to damage rolls which are dependent on attacks that hit.

    Shield is a reaction that interrupts the resolution of whether the attack hits. Shield turns hits into misses.

    Is the hand available to Counterspell or not? The hand cannot be simultaneously free to Counterspell and wielding a weapon in one hand for the subsequent damage resolution.
    Again, I think the problem here is that you are conflating the simulated fantasy world with the mechanics and rules of the game. It makes logical sense that, outside of any game rules, the Shield spell must be cast while the attack is being made in order to defend the caster against the attack. In-universe, this would be how you fluff it, but the actual mechanical rules work differently. In order to cast Shield, you have to be hit by an attack first, which means the attack is already resolved. Shield retroactively adds to your AC against the attack that just happened, potentially turning the hit into a miss. It is the result of that attack that is changed, not the attack itself.

    In turn based games, "time" can be a bit of a fuzzy thing. We all know that each character doesn't just stand there and wait their turn, they're actually all acting at the same time, and things like turn order and action economy are just there to break it down into manageable gameplay elements. Actions, too, occur in a specific order, which might differ from how you choose to fluff it. Shield requires you to have been hit by an attack, therefore, according to the mechanical order of actions, the attack has already ended by the time the Shield spell begins. If the attack is still in progress, then how would you know if you were hit?

    In short, from a narrative/simulation perspective, you cast Shield at the same time as the attack is happening. From a mechanical rules perspective, the Shield comes after the attack and changes its outcome. The game mechanics exist side-by-side with the fantasy world, but should not be mistaken for it. It is entirely possible, and occurs often, for something to work one way from a "realism" standpoint, but to work a different way according to the rules of the game. These are two parallel realities that exist along side each other, influencing one another in ways that don't always make sense.

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