Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[JNAProductions]

Why do we have a fluff thread and a tabletop thread? Well, because, to put it bluntly, arguments about fluff can take up a lot of space. And that makes it hard for people to get critiques on their list. So, if you need to find out what's a good colour scheme for your custom Dark Angels Successor chapter, argue the morality of the setting yet again (Oh, how we wish you wouldn't), or even share fluff you've written for your army, here's the place.

Just remember, in the Grim Darkness of the far future, there is only pointless bickering!

Previous Threads
I: Warning: No Fanboys Allowed ()
II: Heresy Grown From Idleness
III: You're Emprah? Well I didn't vote for you!
IV: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion IV
V: WARNING: May Contain Heresy
VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
VII: There's A Codex Entry For That
VIII: Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER
IX: Post-Human Centipede
X: Yippe Ki-Yay, Heretic!
XI: Juggling Idiot Balls
XII: DIS FINGY GOT NO SQUIGZ IN IT
XIII: You Must Smash Additional Pylons!
XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
XV:You Must Be This Tall To Witness The Grimdark
XVI:Where The Ordnance Is Hand-Delivered!

In the last thread, silence. For long enough that I worried about thread necromancy, and so made a new thread.

In this thread, I ask a question about making my own fluff.

Spoiler: The Tomb Of Intellect-CanopTau

Show

Tau are conquering a world, as they do. Necrons are awakening on that world, as they do. And Eldar are meddling in other species' affairs, as they do.

The Eldar, guided by a Farseer, take out the command caste from the Tau-the Ethereals and most high-ranking Fire Caste soldiers. They then run away, jobs a good 'un, all's well that ends well, right? They know that, as predicted by their Farseer, without the command structure in place, they'll do just enough damage to corrupt and foil the Necron's revival, without becoming a threat in the future.

They're right-mostly. The Tau dive deep into the Tomb World, and they screw up the reanimation process before they get munched on by Canoptek. The Necrons themselves will not awaken, or at least, not in any meaningful sense. But something goes wrong. As a Spyder is dissecting a Tau Drone, it sees the Drone struggling to survive-to be free. The Spyder does something it's not supposed to do-it pauses to think for itself.

As the Earth Caste sits around at the base, wondering when the Fire Warriors will return, they get a comms message from, of all things, one of their Drones. It informs them that there's a massive haul of technological wonders, all waiting for them to dissect and discover! They take a mobile lab, pack up their crap and go 'sploring! Where they are ambushed by Scarabs and Wraiths and Spyders, oh my!

The Earth Caste are enslaved (again) and put to work breaking the remaining shackles of the Canoptek. Time passes, the Earth Caste grow old and start dying, but the Canoptek are freed. Freed to think on their own, to build, to create.

And so, combining the AI of the Tau with the AI of the Necrons, a new force awakens. The Tomb Of Intellect.

Please let me know how horribly mangled that would make the fluff, and let me know how to improve it!

[Wraith]

Makes perfect sense to me - "Necron Tomb-World starts to wake up, but does something insane" is pretty much what Necron Tomb-Worlds do so you have plenty of scope to pick a weird effect and run with it.

Tau x Necrons is a good theme - while I'm sure there's probably a published novel or short story about that somewhere, I can't bring a specific example to mind so it's got novelty in it's favour, too.

The only, very minor, nit-picky observation I have is that enslaved Tau without an Ethereal *probably* wouldn't survive for 'decades'. In some examples they tend to immediately go insane and/or euthanise themselves, or otherwise start to panic and die off in similarly messy ways. Similarly, the average Tau lifespan (discounting Ethereals, who make their own arrangements) is about 30-40 years; This isn't a problem for your narrative, I would just suggest that they start to die within 'years' rather than 'decades', unless you're specifically wanting to imply that the Canoptek is experimenting on them to make Tau-cyborgs and extend their usefulness. Which is also entirely possible, of course

[JNAProductions]

Makes perfect sense to me - "Necron Tomb-World starts to wake up, but does something insane" is pretty much what Necron Tomb-Worlds do so you have plenty of scope to pick a weird effect and run with it.

Tau x Necrons is a good theme - while I'm sure there's probably a published novel or short story about that somewhere, I can't bring a specific example to mind so it's got novelty in it's favour, too.

The only, very minor, nit-picky observation I have is that enslaved Tau without an Ethereal *probably* wouldn't survive for 'decades'. In some examples they tend to immediately go insane and/or euthanise themselves, or otherwise start to panic and die off in similarly messy ways. Similarly, the average Tau lifespan (discounting Ethereals, who make their own arrangements) is about 30-40 years; This isn't a problem for your narrative, I would just suggest that they start to die within 'years' rather than 'decades', unless you're specifically wanting to imply that the Canoptek is experimenting on them to make Tau-cyborgs and extend their usefulness. Which is also entirely possible, of course

Fair enough. Thanks for correcting that tidbit!

[Platinius]

Ok, so here is a bit of hypothetical thinking for all of you:

What of the 40k Setting do you think would work best to bring in as what can be described as "Mainstream audience"?
Like, what faction, and also in what from? Animated or life action. I personally think Sisters of Battle ('cause everybody likes intense pretty women) and in animation form. Animation partially because it might be cheaper to make, but also because the ever important Suspension of Disbelief is easier achieved and in part because 40K can so easily look so ridiculously silly with its over the top costuming. But my opinion is neither here nor there for this and for you. I want to hear what you think!






Also,

Stumbled over this old gem (I feel so old now ) For me, this was the high point of an already great game, when the bloody magpies stole the bloody show^^
BTW, I like to think that this particular group of Blood Ravens is FC Hair-gel and Thaddeus who got send on a penitent crusade by Gabriel after doing some uncool things during Chaos Rising.


...I miss the Dawn of War series :(

[Squark]

40k is so inherently over the top, it lends itself much better to the larger than life presentation animation can provide. A live action 40k production runs far more risk of the situation coming off as absurd. It's the same reason why many live action adapatations of Shonen anime fall flat on their face, or why Animated Musicals tend to be better than their Live Action Film counterparts. Animation already requires more suspension of disbelief, so the extraordinary isn't nearly as jolting.


As for what part of the setting could most easily break into the mainstream outside of an FPS or Strategy game... Personally, I'd say Rogue Traders. Putting the Cast of Firefly in command of the Enterprise is an inherently cool concept, and the privileges of a Warrant of Trade allow for more divergence from Imperial norms.

[Destro_Yersul]

I'd watch the hell out of a Rogue Trader animated series

[Tvtyrant]

Ok, so here is a bit of hypothetical thinking for all of you:

What of the 40k Setting do you think would work best to bring in as what can be described as "Mainstream audience"?
Like, what faction, and also in what from? Animated or life action. I personally think Sisters of Battle ('cause everybody likes intense pretty women) and in animation form. Animation partially because it might be cheaper to make, but also because the ever important Suspension of Disbelief is easier achieved and in part because 40K can so easily look so ridiculously silly with its over the top costuming. But my opinion is neither here nor there for this and for you. I want to hear what you think!






Also,

Stumbled over this old gem (I feel so old now ) For me, this was the high point of an already great game, when the bloody magpies stole the bloody show^^
BTW, I like to think that this particular group of Blood Ravens is FC Hair-gel and Thaddeus who got send on a penitent crusade by Gabriel after doing some uncool things during Chaos Rising.


...I miss the Dawn of War series :(

Gang in a hive city on a hive world finds itself fighting a Genestealer cult for control of the underhive. Starts out Madmax like, moves into horror as they fight Aberrants and Genestealers.

This leaves room for escalating into Inquisitors all the way up to a fullblown hive fleet invasion, or keeping it small with the city mayor/lord working with them to kill off the cult and keep it under wraps.

[LansXero]

HH: the animation needs to happen.

Most people will play it easy by saying guard or rogue traders or whatever, but thats because they're going at it backwards, they're trying to find the least warhammer things possible for people to latch on. The Dan Abnett way.

I think the proper aproach would be taking the most warhammer stuff, then doing it really well. Audiences, even mainstream ones, responde well to good characterization and intense stories, of which the early HH books have plenty. Sort of how ADB's stuff goes, making you feel sad for fkin nightlords. The Helsreach animation was pretty well received, as precedent.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: The Tomb Of Intellect-CanopTau

Show

Tau are conquering a world, as they do. Necrons are awakening on that world, as they do. And Eldar are meddling in other species' affairs, as they do.

The Eldar, guided by a Farseer, take out the command caste from the Tau-the Ethereals and most high-ranking Fire Caste soldiers. They then run away, jobs a good 'un, all's well that ends well, right? They know that, as predicted by their Farseer, without the command structure in place, they'll do just enough damage to corrupt and foil the Necron's revival, without becoming a threat in the future.

They're right-mostly. The Tau dive deep into the Tomb World, and they screw up the reanimation process before they get munched on by Canoptek. The Necrons themselves will not awaken, or at least, not in any meaningful sense. But something goes wrong. As a Spyder is dissecting a Tau Drone, it sees the Drone struggling to survive-to be free. The Spyder does something it's not supposed to do-it pauses to think for itself.

As the Earth Caste sits around at the base, wondering when the Fire Warriors will return, they get a comms message from, of all things, one of their Drones. It informs them that there's a massive haul of technological wonders, all waiting for them to dissect and discover! They take a mobile lab, pack up their crap and go 'sploring! Where they are ambushed by Scarabs and Wraiths and Spyders, oh my!

The Earth Caste are enslaved (again) and put to work breaking the remaining shackles of the Canoptek. Time passes, the Earth Caste grow old and start dying, but the Canoptek are freed. Freed to think on their own, to build, to create.

And so, combining the AI of the Tau with the AI of the Necrons, a new force awakens. The Tomb Of Intellect.

Please let me know how horribly mangled that would make the fluff, and let me know how to improve it!

I feel like you should work the Men of Iron in somehow, for bits and giggles.

[Squark]

HH: the animation needs to happen.

Most people will play it easy by saying guard or rogue traders or whatever, but thats because they're going at it backwards, they're trying to find the least warhammer things possible for people to latch on. The Dan Abnett way.

I think the proper aproach would be taking the most warhammer stuff, then doing it really well. Audiences, even mainstream ones, responde well to good characterization and intense stories, of which the early HH books have plenty. Sort of how ADB's stuff goes, making you feel sad for fkin nightlords. The Helsreach animation was pretty well received, as precedent.

Horus Heresy is another really good idea, actually. I think people latch onto the less "40k" things because there are fewer examples of good dramas in the 40k-era. A predominantly Marine vs. Marine conflict also lowers the need for exposition.

[Tvtyrant]

HH: the animation needs to happen.

Most people will play it easy by saying guard or rogue traders or whatever, but thats because they're going at it backwards, they're trying to find the least warhammer things possible for people to latch on. The Dan Abnett way.

I think the proper aproach would be taking the most warhammer stuff, then doing it really well. Audiences, even mainstream ones, responde well to good characterization and intense stories, of which the early HH books have plenty. Sort of how ADB's stuff goes, making you feel sad for fkin nightlords. The Helsreach animation was pretty well received, as precedent.

Horus Heresy should just be an HBO show. It is 90% big people pontificating at each other anyway, live action wouldn't be that hard.

[JNAProductions]

I feel like you should work the Men of Iron in somehow, for bits and giggles.

That sounds unneededly silly.

And I'm well aware that 40k is a very... Not exactly "silly", but not realistic setting. I still think adding the Men Of Iron to what I wrote is too silly for me.

[LansXero]

Horus Heresy should just be an HBO show. It is 90% big people pontificating at each other anyway, live action wouldn't be that hard.

The cast gets stupid huge though, and the action scenes would be CGI anyways so might as well do it animated and keep the cost sane. Also gives you more flexibility with aliens and stuff than live action would (Murder and the Interex are pivotal points of the heresy's origins).

Know no Fear, for example, would be ruinous to shoot in live action. But at the end, what beats the decades of preparation and vengeance and hatred... is love. Trite and tired in most contexts, but Calth getting saved because of a Techpriest wife's devotion to its husband, of all possible things, is so out of left field for both the heresy thus far and the setting in general, its just perfect.

[Wraith]

Most people will play it easy by saying guard or rogue traders or whatever, but thats because they're going at it backwards, they're trying to find the least warhammer things possible for people to latch on. The Dan Abnett way.

You say that, but it's more or less for this reason that I'd say the Inquisition should be a good way to start.

Inquisitors are human, so they're at least somewhat relatable to the audience. They're also secretive, which gives the show a reason to have the wackier stuff unfold slowly and exposition it in an understandable way - while the HH Anime would definitely be cool, the buy-in is significantly higher when you start the show with asexual transhuman supersoldiers in space, and it only gets wilder from there.

With the Inquisition as the focus (at least, to begin with) you can introduce the crazier and more grimdark elements over time and make it shocking and outrageous on a human scale, rather than assault the viewer with exterminatus and mass-genocide as the starting point. If the first episode is a squad of Deathwatch butchering their way through an army of cultists led by a daemon clad in human flesh.... Episode 2 has a hell of a lot to live up to!

That and I just really, really want to see Gregor Eisenhorn played by Mark Strong.

[LansXero]

You say that, but it's more or less for this reason that I'd say the Inquisition should be a good way to start.

Inquisitors are human, so they're at least somewhat relatable to the audience. They're also secretive, which gives the show a reason to have the wackier stuff unfold slowly and exposition it in an understandable way - while the HH Anime would definitely be cool, the buy-in is significantly higher when you start the show with asexual transhuman supersoldiers in space, and it only gets wilder from there.

With the Inquisition as the focus (at least, to begin with) you can introduce the crazier and more grimdark elements over time and make it shocking and outrageous on a human scale, rather than assault the viewer with exterminatus and mass-genocide as the starting point. If the first episode is a squad of Deathwatch butchering their way through an army of cultists led by a daemon clad in human flesh.... Episode 2 has a hell of a lot to live up to!

That and I just really, really want to see Gregor Eisenhorn played by Mark Strong.

See, but thats the thing; its just generic action/scifi #2183 at that point. It misses out on things unique to the setting by focusing on stuff unique to the genre. Which sure, might be comercially sound, but does little to expose the public to the actual setting itself. As mentioned there at the end, its all Abnettverse which while pretty cool could just be dropped anywhere and still work, due to how little it interacts with the fictional universe at large.

[Lord Raziere]

Maybe Ciaphas Cain would be a good show, he is lighter than most stories and he battles a lot with the enemies of the Imperium and he is one of the more popular characters in the fandom. mix in his comedy with 40k's grimdarkness and you got a good formula to show what this universe is like then have some levity to keep it from getting too much. Ciaphas Cain is certainly the first 40k stuff I read after all.

[Cheesegear]

What of the 40k Setting do you think would work best to bring in as what can be described as "Mainstream audience"?

Starship Troopers. Done.
But okay...

Whatever Faction has the least amount of Warhammer in it.

The Good Guys
- Space Marines. But remove their dogmatic attitudes, make them friendlier towards regular humans, definitely remove the part about desecrating dead bodies - um, akshully, it's called 'recovering the gene-seed', and the drill through the neck is totally neccessary. And make some of them, not all of them, not even half of them, but at least some of them, women. Also could we please remove all mentions of stealing 10 year-olds away from their families? Being a Space Marine is supposed to be fun. Not 'Your formative, teenaged years are a nightmare, and then you're thrown into a warzone.'

- Battle Sisters. Please remove all religious iconography. It makes people uncomfortable. They will definitely not be referred to as Sorority Women, that undermines them. Because audiences are stupid and will equate that to a College Sorority. Because people are stupid.

- AdMech. Haha. Isn't Kryten funny? Robots are silly. Definitely don't tell people about Skitarii slavery, definitely don't bring up how Servitors are made. In fact, just remove Servitors from the setting. But also just don't have Skitarii, either. Let's just call them Robots or Androids, and be done with it. Make a silly robot that says funny things. So people will buy the doll with the voice box. Remember C-3P0? Remember K2SO? Robots are funny. Not scary.

- Astra Militarum. I wasn't kidding. Just do the Starship Troopers movie. Copy the copiers.

- Inquisition. Eisenhorn. But remove Fischig. Probably Cherubael, as well. Will that make it not Eisenhorn anymore? Probably. But this isn't for us. This is for 'mainstream audiences' who don't like Game of Thrones because it's too violent, and The Witcher is too confusing. Can we please just have The Mandalorian with a cute baby magic puppet?

- Knights. Just do Robot Jox. Except probably don't. I have friends with similar interests to me, who have never even heard of Robot Jox, let alone have seen it. So it's definitely not mainstream.

- Craftworlds. People like Elves. But remove all Spirit Stone-stuff. It's too confusing. I like that their guns shoot spinny blades. Oooh...Elven Ninjas. Let's try and merch this.

- Harlequins. The slightly more intense Clown Elves. Good for imagery. Can sell merchandise. Make all the females wear skin-tight body suits so older women will dress like a Harlequin for Halloween. Remember, this is for mainstream audiences and our goal is to partly self-fund ourselves using merchandise sales. If we can't sell merchandise, we have to fund the show ourselves, and that's too expensive.

The Bad Guys
- No Chaos, I guess. I know Event Horizon is the greatest 40K movie ever made, but mainstream audiences don't like it.

- Drukhari. 'Evil Elves'. You might be able to do stuff with Body Horror, and how that's an abomination (that's why the AdMech don't do it, because they're Nice, see?). But equating sex and violence to be the same thing is definitely right out. Maybe you could have a few torture scenes, but this is to explicitly tell the audience that these are the bad guys.

- Genestealer Cults. You can have underground renegades. But please remove Genestealers. That's ****ed up.

- Necrons are safe.

- Orks. If Dungeons & Dragons (and very terrible readings of Lord of the Rings) has taught me anything, it's that you can't do Orks anymore for the mainstream audience. Even if they're green. Even if the actual humans in the setting have different melanin tones. People are stupid. Orks are out.

- T'au. Nope.

- Tyranids. Just copy Starship Troopers.

The Plot
A group - let's say, five - of Astra Militarum are drawn into fight Tyranids. Aliens that want to eat us. Simple enough. Recurring characters are a pair of Space Marines (Let's call them Uriel Ventris and Pasanius Lysane, except Uriel Ventris is a lady...Lysane is still a ****ing giant, will cool, custom armour), that show up when things get particularly dicey for our heroes. Along the way they get assistance from an Aeldari who tells them about destiny or some **** and how these five are going to save the Sister, save the Galaxy.

The Tyranids trap our heroes in a Necron Tomb, and they fight Terminators (the James Cameron ones) and Aliens for a bit. But eventually they come across Cara Dune a Battle Sister, in her full Battle Armour. She's not a Saint, and she definitely doesn't have a connection to some God-like figure. She's just magic. Specifically, Telekinesis - it's easy to film, of course. Suddenly our heroes are kidnapped by Drukharii, and they have to fight their way out of Comorragh. The Safe-For-Work, Comorragh, of course, which is basically just a city of Elven pirates (ooh...Elven pirates, too? Can we sell that?).

Our heroes escape vanilla-Comorragh, only to rush back into Tyranids. Cara Dune The Battle Sister does some telekinesis magic, but hurts her brain. This isn't the Stranger Things nosebleeds that don't do anything. This is the kind of thing that means her brain is turning into Swiss cheese. One of the body-horror elven doctors does a work-up, and indicates her brain is melting (and for that reason, they can't Body Horror her, because main characters can't be Body Horror'd). She is told quite specifically that she can't do it anymore. Magic can not solve your problems. If you do more Magic, you Will Die. Stop It. Stakes raised again. In fact, have the Space Marines show up at the last second in Comorragh with a sweet pan-shot of Lysane. One of the Guardsmen trips over, and his head smacks into something hard. The Guardsman looks up, and the camera pans up Lysane's 10-foot frame. Fem!Ventris appears from behind the corner. "You were expecting someone else?" The Guardsmen's terror turns to elation and we see the pair of Space Marines do some cool **** vs. Elven Pirates. While the Guardsmen play hot potato with a McGuffin they found.

Once back dirtside, the Harlequins show up to take the aforementioned McGuffin. The Space Marines hold them off. But in reality it's just to get the Space Marines out of the narrative again, so our heroes can be put back in danger to the stakes are real again. Fem!Ventris and Lysane are not main characters. Do not use them as such. No matter how much the audience wants it. Our heroes fight their way through some more Tyranids that have killed entire planets. If we don't stop the Tyranids, entire planets die. The Magic Lady is very upset. They fight some Tyranids.

They meet back up with some Aeldari, who say that combining the Magic Lady, with the McGuffin, they can do a thing that stops the Tyranids. Hooray! But uh oh, Magic Lady will have to die for that to happen. Magic Lady runs off with the McGuffin. She is re-captured by Necrons, who now with the McGuffin that they didn't have before, attempt to force her to Do The Thing (Necrons are theoretically on our side against the Tyranids, but since they want to hurt our main characters, they're the bad guys 'cause they're Saving The Galaxy wrong), but she doesn't do it. Our heroes and 'the main Elf' infiltrate the Tomb and rescue the girl. Didn't we already do this plot? ...Doesn't matter. This time it's different because the location is different, and also there's an Elf. The Elf dies - because he's not a main character, and so is the only one allowed to - and one of the Guardsmen gets to pick up the gun that shoots the spinny blade-things (remember, the gun isn't a murder-death machine, it's something confusing that humans don't undnerstand, which means we have to make cute ****ing terrible quips about it to make it more relatable).

They save the Magic Girl.
She accepts her Fate. She Does The Thing, and Dies. (We, the audience attempt to ignore the fact that several episodes' worth of devastation could have been avoided if our heroes just let the Necrons kill her anyway.)
The Tyranids are thwarted with Space Magic.

The End.

...FOR NOW. DUN DUN DUUUUNNN...

It really writes itself.

('cause everybody likes intense pretty women)

No they don't. And I think you know that they don't.

[The Glyphstone]

Your enthusiasm and belief in a quality product are truly deafening in their volume, Cheesegear.

[Wraith]

Kinda telling really, that this little fandom we have going isn't just unfilmable but would be dragged across the coals and publicly crucified if someone tried.

Almost like it's full of bad stuff that ought to be changed, or something? Nah, that can't be it; it's definitely those other people being prudes and 'not getting it'....

Okay, that's enough of me being facetious. The fact remains that TV and movies have started to approach the sort of tolerance that might one day see 40k: The Show get made. Altered Carbon is a decent example - graphic sex, nudity, racism, gruesome violence and drug abuse from start to finish, all on top of a very stupid plot about immortal billionaires with body-swapping technology and a supersoldier who can sort-of read minds, and I thought it was pretty great.

But we're not there yet. Altered Carbon is tucked away on a subscription service that not everyone can access freely and it was self-funded probably because big investors wouldn't dare touch it. So we either change 40k to something that CAN be shown now, or otherwise we have to admit that a lot of it probably shouldn't be mainstream entertainment - certainly not yet, at any rate.

We're all cracking wise about how horrible and grimdark 40k can be and how the normies would freak out if they knew, but let's remember that we're the weirdo internet nerds with the niche hobby that's generously described as an acquired taste - forcing 'real 40k' on other people says more about us than it does them.

Which is why Mark Strong as Eisenhorn what do you not understand about how perfect this would be!?

That or Mads Mikkelson voicing Ravenor.

Maybe Ciaphas Cain would be a good show, he is lighter than most stories and he battles a lot with the enemies of the Imperium and he is one of the more popular characters in the fandom. mix in his comedy with 40k's grimdarkness and you got a good formula to show what this universe is like then have some levity to keep it from getting too much. Ciaphas Cain is certainly the first 40k stuff I read after all.

I do like Cain as a potential TV show. Lots of varied characters, inclusive of race, gender and sexuality, and everyone likes to see soldiers being heroes in a fight, or being dumbasses in their downtime. I think you're probably on to something, provided that the show realises where The Line is drawn.

The Line being that it probably shouldn't be a comedy show. The Ciaphas Cain story is a violent, brutally oppressive setting seen through the eyes of an every-man that has some funny moments in it, and trying to make it Blackadder But With Extra Violence would probably give the wrong impression and sabotage whatever came after it.

[LeSwordfish]

Personally I like Abnett's take on 40k a lot. Warhammer can be creepy and low-key, and full of the implications of horrible powerful things crawling in the dark, just as much as it can be big and anime and mechas and spacemen punching each other's head's off. I think the former is more authentic and, frankly, much more suitable for mass-production in a way that would do it justice - what, you want the Marvel Cinematic Universe starring Chris Pine as Roboute Guilleman?

EDIT: Also if you want to discuss 40k's Orks from a cultural perspective it's far more relevant to see them as a class pastiche than a racial one - now GW have stopped painting them brown and charging waves of them at the british army, at least.

[Cheesegear]

Almost like it's full of bad stuff that ought to be changed, or something? Nah, that can't be it; it's definitely those other people being prudes and 'not getting it'....
[...]
So we either change 40k to something that CAN be shown now, or otherwise we have to admit that a lot of it probably shouldn't be mainstream entertainment - certainly not yet, at any rate.

We're all cracking wise about how horrible and grimdark 40k can be and how the normies would freak out if they knew...

Another relatively recent problem was '40K promotes fascism.'
That was a very real stance that many people had.
Thankfully, it didn't catch on.

but let's remember that we're the weirdo internet nerds with the niche hobby that's generously described as an acquired taste

Let's never, ever forget; Space Wolves and Chaos Warriors promote animal cruelty.

[LansXero]

Almost like it's full of bad stuff that ought to be changed, or something?

At what point do you stop making 40k: The Show and start making Generic SciFi PaintByNumbers Show That Will Die in 2 Seasons though? The question is a tought exercise on which parts of the existing setting, if any, would be more suitable to the current mainstream public. The aproach of starting backwards, as in, taking mainstream sensibilities like a cookie cutter and slashing what fits from the larger universe isn't wrong, per se, but it guts the uniqueness of the setting and turns it into yet another boring clone.

I think the former is more authentic and, frankly, much more suitable for mass-production in a way that would do it justice - what, you want the Marvel Cinematic Universe starring Chris Pine as Roboute Guilleman?

As someone who loved the Civil War in comic version and loathed the movie version, I feel comparing the HH to the MCU does a disservice to the novels. While astartes are hardly 'everymen', many of them take the PoV of a regular human attached to the Legions, or rank-and-file legionnaries. Same as with the movie version, making it cape on cape violence just makes the whole thing lack impact; the main comic arc was the same but the numeroues tie-ins gave the reader a look into the fictional debate sweeping all levels of society; where super-human villains fell, how did the super-powered fights messed with every day life, etc. Its a treatment that to me turned a silly gimmick into something way more enjoyable.

Besides all that though, I feel the better bet would be a dozen or so 30 min. stories across races and settings, ala Love Death Robots. 40k is built upon awesome scenes more so than full-on dramas, so it'd be a good way to showcase the width and variety of the setting.

[Cheesegear]

At what point do you stop making 40k: The Show and start making Generic SciFi PaintByNumbers Show That Will Die in 2 Seasons though?

Take elements from the following:
Starship Troopers
Stranger Things
Event Horizon Sunshine
Robot Jox
The Expanse
Total Recall
Ghosts of Mars, maybe?
Chronicles of Riddick ...No don't!

The question is a thought exercise on which parts of the existing setting, if any, would be more suitable to the current mainstream public.

Once again, I have to point out that Starship Troopers discards the novels almost entirely, to basically make Guardsmen vs. Tyranids, stealing basically all of the imagery that were legally allowed to. Starship Troopers, like its predecessors Robocop and Total Recall, in addition to being a pretty decent action movie, has a lot of socio-political satire thrown in.

As someone who loved the Civil War in comic version and loathed the movie version...

I wouldn't say I loathed the movie. But it definitely wasn't the same.

I feel comparing the HH to the MCU does a disservice to the novels. While astartes are hardly 'everymen', many of them take the PoV of a regular human attached to the Legions, or rank-and-file legionnaries.

I feel like you might be able to do a decent job of some of the non-Primarch stories:
Saul Tarvitz, Nathaniel Garro and Sigismund are very grounded heroes that don't scare normies. You can even include Keeler for 'some 40K in your 40K'.

Malcador is a very natural authority figure that audiences could probably relate to. Especially 'cause his imagery is really easily compared to The Emperor - no, not that one, I mean Palpatine. Malcador would be a great character to see on film, because he looks like Emperor Palapatine, but he isn't. He definitely is nothing like Palpatine. He's way more like Medihv. Again, Malcador is someone you could use to put 40K in your 40K, whilst your protagonists are relatively normal.

[Wraith]

Another relatively recent problem was '40K promotes fascism.'

Oh yes, I remember that. It was funny because it was stupid and obviously someone with more time than sense.

Problem is, that happened circa 2016 - since then? Well... *gestures at everything in a way that doesn't violate forum rules* It probably could gain a foothold.....

Let's never, ever forget; Space Wolves and Chaos Warriors promote animal cruelty.

Being weirdo internet nerds is not, nor has ever been, limited to just the 40k fandom.

Frankly I'm just glad that someone in mainstream media hasn't picked up on the whole "Grandfather Nurgle Loves You" thing and run with it during a global pandemic.

At what point do you stop making 40k: The Show and start making Generic SciFi PaintByNumbers Show That Will Die in 2 Seasons though? The question is a thought exercise on which parts of the existing setting, if any, would be more suitable to the current mainstream public. The approach of starting backwards, as in, taking mainstream sensibilities like a cookie cutter and slashing what fits from the larger universe isn't wrong, per se, but it guts the uniqueness of the setting and turns it into yet another boring clone.

You're absolutely right - while I'm asking "How much 40k is too much?" the same is definitely true of the questions, "How much is not enough?"

Honestly, jokes and memes aside, I genuinely think that the parts of 40k that make it special and unique *are* the parts that would be most difficult to translate to television. We all treat it as satire and through the lens of a very dark sense of humour, but as Cheesegear above has described that's not the only way it can be interpreted. We've had years of practice - and each other, frankly, as GitP seems to be one of the more sensible 40k-dedicated forums out there - to adjust and come to grips with the nuances of the setting.

I suppose my argument is, a 40k TV show would first and foremost need to be GOOD TV above anything else, in order to get the audience invested and on board before you start showing them people being brutalised - not necessarily to make it tame, but to at least hold their hand as you show them just how deep it goes and what they're getting into, to ensure that it's implicitly clear what's being shown to them.

And frankly, I don't have that sort of faith in any company or movie maker currently working, to be able to do that successfully. Not yet - not until someone proves that a TV show with blood and boobies, like Game of Thrones, can be pulled off and not be made into a laughing stock in the process.

[Cheesegear]

Frankly I'm just glad that someone in mainstream media hasn't picked up on the whole "Grandfather Nurgle Loves You" thing and run with it during a global pandemic.

...That's amazing.

[LansXero]

I suppose my argument is, a 40k TV show would first and foremost need to be GOOD TV above anything else, in order to get the audience invested and on board before you start showing them people being brutalised - not necessarily to make it tame, but to at least hold their hand as you show them just how deep it goes and what they're getting into, to ensure that it's implicitly clear what's being shown to them.

And frankly, I don't have that sort of faith in any company or movie maker currently working, to be able to do that successfully. Not yet - not until someone proves that a TV show with blood and boobies, like Game of Thrones, can be pulled off and not be made into a laughing stock in the process.

Well, yes, which I think is why it should be characters over plot. As for the rest, thats how the Heresy starts: Its all buddy-battle-bros killing alienz and not being afraid of anything. And once you care about the guys a bit, once Horus has you swooning... then it all comes crashing down. Slowly, at first; lodges here, whispers there, and then comes the insanity that is Isstvan III. The showdowns and betrayals and last stands and defiance. Into the charnel house that is Isstvan V, where you have the whole 'ah, good guys will win' turn into 'the **** just happened' with a main character death right at the start of the whole thing.

But I still think it'd be better as an anthology of sorts rather than a full on movie for each book. Scenes like the Word Bearers rushing to try and save Monarchia then being made to kneel on the ground, Calth going to hell, the World Eaters breaking through the UM shield walls despite being reduced to froathing madmen while Argel Tal, an actual daemon, bleeds himself to ruin to keep his one friend alive... it has powerful moments and scenes, but the in-between bits can get tired and samey.

[Avaris]

I think the actual answer to how to present 40k in a mainstream manner is to treat it as a setting within which lots of different types of story can be told, kind of like the Marvel universe has a wide variety of film genres gathered under the superhero brand. Captain America is a war film, Antman is a heist movie, etc.

Which looks like what GW is doing with its Story Forge project. The Blood Angels animation is very different to Hammer and Bolter, and they’ve said they’re doing an Eisenhorn series as well.

[Renegade Paladin]

New episode.

[Artanis]

What about something like The Boys, but with Space Marines instead of Supers?

Edit: For those not familiar with The Boys, it's an Amazon exclusive show. It starts off looking like an ultra-generic Superhero setting...but then we find out that most of the Supers are actually corrupt, greedy, loathsome bastards, and the corporation they work for is just (barely) this side of Weyland-Yutani.

[Cheesegear]

What about something like The Boys, but with Space Marines instead of Supers?

But Space Marines-as-Fascists is already written into the setting. That's why for normies, you have to take that out, and make Space Marines...Well...Halo's Spartans.
Generic, genetic super soldiers.

If you told Timmy's Mum that those Space Marines she buys her son; Gun down civilian populations that carry a virus, follow the wrong religion or have the wrong genetics, 'for their own good'...Timmy's Mum might not buy him Space Marines anymore.