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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth3 View Post
    So, could you do the same kind of thing with the Orks or Tyranids?
    You mean like Octarius?

    They both have much simpler motivations than the other factions, so what could they do that isn't just a big invasion?
    I'm confused as to your premise, but:
    Tyranids exist to consume and feed. There is no reasoning with them. The second Tyranids no longer consume and feed, they are no longer Tyranids, and they no longer present the threat that they do. If Tyranids aren't an unreasonable threat, then they're just a different version of Chaos.

    Orks have the same problem, but also have the illusion that they can be reasoned with, since they have sentient speech. This is reflected by the fact that you can actually play as an Ork in the 40K TTRPGs. Very Digga. Much relatable. Wow. However, they also present the same problem. Orks live to fight, and fight to live. The Krork were such a threat that the C'Tan had to shut down their Galactic-domination plan for a few millennia. Once Orks no longer present a threat to all sides, they are no longer what they are. There is no line in the sand where an Ork says "I've fought enough, this far and I can be persuaded maybe no further."

    This is problematised (?) within the (in)famous 'Orks never lose' quote; They have no reason at all to ever stop fighting, ever. Everything they do is a big invasion, because that's all they can do.

    The biggest problem, narratively, is that Tyranids and Orks occupy the same space; The 'Fight Everyone' Faction. That's why the only really creative thing you can do with them, is bait them into fighting each other and then walking away:
    Some believe that The Milky Way ends in Tyranids,
    Some believe that The Milky Way ends in Orks,
    Whoever wins, we lose.

    But that's really the problem in a nutshell. Orks and Tyranids are creatively bankrupt, because there's nothing you can do with them, because they are so narratively one-dimensional that they're so one-dimensional that you can't even expand them.

    The bankruptcy was already seen back in WHFB:
    Storm of Chaos: Grimgor Ironhide fights Archaon, then walks away for no reason at all because the story has to happen.
    End Times: Grimgor Ironhide does the exact same thing again, but Achaon kills him.

    Orcs had the exact same storyline, twice. Because there isn't anything creative you can do with them, and have them still occupy the same narrative 'Fight Everyone' space.
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  2. - Top - End - #542
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    You mean like Octarius?



    I'm confused as to your premise, but:
    Tyranids exist to consume and feed. There is no reasoning with them. The second Tyranids no longer consume and feed, they are no longer Tyranids, and they no longer present the threat that they do. If Tyranids aren't an unreasonable threat, then they're just a different version of Chaos.

    Orks have the same problem, but also have the illusion that they can be reasoned with, since they have sentient speech. This is reflected by the fact that you can actually play as an Ork in the 40K TTRPGs. Very Digga. Much relatable. Wow. However, they also present the same problem. Orks live to fight, and fight to live. The Krork were such a threat that the C'Tan had to shut down their Galactic-domination plan for a few millennia. Once Orks no longer present a threat to all sides, they are no longer what they are. There is no line in the sand where an Ork says "I've fought enough, this far and I can be persuaded maybe no further."

    This is problematised (?) within the (in)famous 'Orks never lose' quote; They have no reason at all to ever stop fighting, ever. Everything they do is a big invasion, because that's all they can do.

    The biggest problem, narratively, is that Tyranids and Orks occupy the same space; The 'Fight Everyone' Faction. That's why the only really creative thing you can do with them, is bait them into fighting each other and then walking away:
    Some believe that The Milky Way ends in Tyranids,
    Some believe that The Milky Way ends in Orks,
    Whoever wins, we lose.

    But that's really the problem in a nutshell. Orks and Tyranids are creatively bankrupt, because there's nothing you can do with them, because they are so narratively one-dimensional that they're so one-dimensional that you can't even expand them.

    The bankruptcy was already seen back in WHFB:
    Storm of Chaos: Grimgor Ironhide fights Archaon, then walks away for no reason at all because the story has to happen.
    End Times: Grimgor Ironhide does the exact same thing again, but Achaon kills him.

    Orcs had the exact same storyline, twice. Because there isn't anything creative you can do with them, and have them still occupy the same narrative 'Fight Everyone' space.
    I disagree with that. Tyranids, sure, they are a omnicidal threat that you can't bargain with at all.

    Orks though, Orks just want to fight. Their entire civilization might be geared up to fight, but they do have a civilization of a sort. They take human slaves, they hold grudges, they prioritize targets, and they even show mercy, if extremely rarely. And they become...more when they hit a certain level of fighting like we saw in the War of the Beast books. Not just the Beast themselves, but the Ork diplomats, the increased technology and intelligence they had access to. Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of flaws in those books, but the Orks as an opponent weren't one of them.

    So it is very possible to have Orks be the 'heroes' against something like Tyranids, or an Ork 'evolving' to the point where it's capable of making a sophisticated alliance with someone else.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Orks sent a diplomat to Terra to negotiate terms of surrender. Of course when we got to that point the Beast was going full gun ho and going to take over the galaxy. But the war level in Octarius could make ork's evolution supercharge.

    What I would really like to see is an Octarius development with ork-genestealer hybrids starting to gain weight. A new alien menace. One can dream, and one can also write fanfiction.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    an Ork 'evolving' to the point where it's capable of making a sophisticated alliance with someone else.
    Like I said, you can play as an Ork in the 40K TTRPG. There's an Ork in Blackstone Fortress.

    My point was, that as a Faction, how can you even change the status quo? The only notable thing that Orks have gotten is a Beast-classification of Ork. Which simply and only means an even bigger-er Ork.

    A long time ago there was Orkimedes. But I literally don't recall him showing up anywhere after 3rd Ed.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    There's an Ork in Blackstone Fortress.
    I don't think there is, unless I'm forgetting an expansion.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    The orks were at one time allied with the squats (there was a betrayal; the eldar - also nominal allies with the squats - refused to step in and help, and thus the squats gained their hatred of orks and distrust of eldar). Does this imply that orks are capable of such complex behavior? Or has this been retconned out of existence, much like the squats?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    I don't think there is, unless I'm forgetting an expansion.
    Yeah, I bought an unreasonable number of boxes of Blackstone Fortress (the one that released during 8th anyway.) and I'm certain there isn't an Ork in there.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    Yeah, I bought an unreasonable number of boxes of Blackstone Fortress (the one that released during 8th anyway.) and I'm certain there isn't an Ork in there.
    Skarburn Zapdakka. He was in a White Dwarf, same as the Broggan Brothers.
    If White Dwarves are lame (because they are)... Blackstone Fortress Annual 2019.

    Buy a whole box of models, just so you can use one of them in BSF...It's weird that retinue characters didn't catch on. Can't imagine why they didn't.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Thinking about it, I could actually see a situation in which a Krork-esque orc faction surges into being in response to Necrons being back and perhaps also as a response to the bit with the warp breaking open like it has that shakes up the status quo of the faction a little and give the Orks some new characters to work with. Something something blame the Old Ones.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    What are you people's feelings on the up coming Darktide game?

    (Here the gameplay trailer for the unlikely case you don't know what I am talking about)

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post
    What are you people's feelings on the up coming Darktide game?
    What are yours?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Skarburn Zapdakka. He was in a White Dwarf, same as the Broggan Brothers.
    If White Dwarves are lame (because they are)... Blackstone Fortress Annual 2019.

    Buy a whole box of models, just so you can use one of them in BSF...It's weird that retinue characters didn't catch on. Can't imagine why they didn't.
    Ah, my mistake.

    Perhaps the issue is that while individual Orks are perfectly willing to work alongside humans, as a collective or a faction, Orks just fight things.
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  13. - Top - End - #553
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    ...as a collective or a faction, Orks just fight things.
    Right. That's what I said.

    The most interesting thing - narratively - about Orks, is their Waaagh! circuit. It's not the Warp, which means that it's not technically a psychic link between Orks. But it is something that Orks seem to have genetically, as a species. What is it? How does it work?

    Why is one Ork, seemingly fine and reasonable? But the more you get, in a single space, the more seemingly-stupid, and violent they become. What is that? How does it work? Can it be harnessed? If Orks are divided, do they even still want to fight? That's probably why Ghazgkull is so scary. He's actually making a point to unite Orks, to focus their violence and stupidity. He's the Prophet, and he's making it happen. Making what happen? ...The biggest and meanest fight that there ever was...Oh. Is that all?

    Can't the Waaagh! circuit be used for something interesting that isn't stupid? No. The Waaagh! circuit is for making Orks believe that red cars go faster. Or...Is there really no Waaagh! circuit at all, and Orks really are as stupid as they look, and thus, are prone to Groupthink? Since if you get an Ork away from other Orks, and start giving it food and clean clothes, it stops being disagreeable because it starts groupthinking with the Imperial captor.

    Maybe an Ork just picks up and adopts whatever culture happens to be around it at the time?
    Like a mushroom.
    ...Oh.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    What are yours?
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    I hope we get an Eldar (if we do, likely a Ranger or a Banshee/Wych, hopefully Wych, but careers, weapon selections and skins exist so who knows, we might get all of them^^), but what I am really looking forward to is playing as the Ogrin and the priestess.
    I like the design of the priestess, it has a lot of personality and looks quite unique.
    I find it interesting that they made the trooper with the power sword a woman.


    My expectation in comparison to Vermintide 1+2 is that ranged combat will be somewhat more important/used more in part because the enemies also have more ranged weapons.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post
    What are you people's feelings on the up coming Darktide game?
    On the one hand, I like the art style and the gameplay looks nice and fluid. One of my biggest turn-offs with Vermintide was that a lot of it was melee-combat orientated, and I really don't like that in a First-Person perspective - a matter of taste more than anything - and more ranged combat is a plus in my eyes.

    My biggest criticism is that it's a FPS placed in the Warhammer 40k setting, and the protagonists are just random humans (save for the Ogryn, of course). Random humans are the most boring part of the 40k setting; why can't they be a squad of guardsmen and play with a theme? Or Inquisitorial henchmen and remake Dark Heresy in glorious 3D? Or pick anything other than humans, and send out a squad of Deathwatch Space Marines? Let us play with boltors and heavy flamers and role-play not just as random spods but as a squad of battle brothers?

    Oh wait, they already made that game - it was called Space Hulk. It wasn't great, because "Left 4 Dead In Space" unfortunately focuses on the 'in space' part when all the gameplay and other important stuff should be on the 'L4D' part.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    The humans are not random as far as I can tell. They are:
    1 priestess
    2 inquisitorial stormtroopers
    1 Ogryn

    thus far.
    I hope for a Eldar party member, but a Sister of Battle (as a tanky character) would be cool too. (But she might actually be too tough with her massive armour and too powerful with her boltgun without nerfing the fokk out of her gear)
    One of the stormtroopers might be a placeholder (the lady stormtrooper in part because she holds a high end power sword that so she might be replaced by a banshee or something), but if she is replaced, I would want her as an alternate skin for the gas masked stormtrooper.
    But is already unusual that the priest of the imperial faith is female. It should not surprise me, but it actually did, because usually the faithful female followers of the God-Emperor are represented as Sisters of Battle. A little reminder that the Sisters of Battle are "only" the armed arm of the Imperial Faith and that the regular priests can be men and women alike. (and given the ultra violent nature of the Imperial Faith, of course they are also hardened, fanatical warriors, but their primary purpose is to lead faitfhul, not to literally beat on the heretic with a hammer in the face.)

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Like I said, you can play as an Ork in the 40K TTRPG. There's an Ork in Blackstone Fortress.

    My point was, that as a Faction, how can you even change the status quo? The only notable thing that Orks have gotten is a Beast-classification of Ork. Which simply and only means an even bigger-er Ork.

    A long time ago there was Orkimedes. But I literally don't recall him showing up anywhere after 3rd Ed.
    As a faction I suppose we are seeing it with Ghaz. He's unifying the Orks which could lead them to unleash their full potential as a race. Where we do see Orks use greater levels of technology, become more Psyker based, and just in general become more sophisticated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    On the one hand, I like the art style and the gameplay looks nice and fluid. One of my biggest turn-offs with Vermintide was that a lot of it was melee-combat orientated, and I really don't like that in a First-Person perspective - a matter of taste more than anything - and more ranged combat is a plus in my eyes.

    My biggest criticism is that it's a FPS placed in the Warhammer 40k setting, and the protagonists are just random humans (save for the Ogryn, of course). Random humans are the most boring part of the 40k setting; why can't they be a squad of guardsmen and play with a theme? Or Inquisitorial henchmen and remake Dark Heresy in glorious 3D? Or pick anything other than humans, and send out a squad of Deathwatch Space Marines? Let us play with boltors and heavy flamers and role-play not just as random spods but as a squad of battle brothers?

    Oh wait, they already made that game - it was called Space Hulk. It wasn't great, because "Left 4 Dead In Space" unfortunately focuses on the 'in space' part when all the gameplay and other important stuff should be on the 'L4D' part.
    I'd say the most boring part of 40K are Space Marines as characters. Inevitably, the Space Marine characterization is so brutally limited they come off as unchanging killing machines. Which, you know, they are. A normal human can feel fear, doubt, be tired, and just want to go home already. They can also have other desires like having a family, or getting a beer, or watching a game. They can push through despair, be tempted by evil, and be completely in over their head.

    Now while I certainly would enjoy using an alien race or two, I'm also not super eager for it? Basically, I'd want them to do it well, and feel like them ending up as just another human would be a waste.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    and just in general become more sophisticated...
    at fighting. Krorks are weapons, the Beast sent diplomats from its freaking Attack Moon, thats all they are even at their peak, even in Ullanor there was no fancy orky civ, just more fighty fights. Thats it, thats all they are, a weapon with nobody at the trigger.

    I'd say the most boring part of 40K are Space Marines as characters. Inevitably, the Space Marine
    And then you procede to say they dont experience... what we see a bunch of them experience across several novels. So... read more?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    at fighting. Krorks are weapons, the Beast sent diplomats from its freaking Attack Moon, thats all they are even at their peak, even in Ullanor there was no fancy orky civ, just more fighty fights. Thats it, thats all they are, a weapon with nobody at the trigger.



    And then you procede to say they dont experience... what we see a bunch of them experience across several novels. So... read more?
    Sure. They are ultimately a weapon, that won't change. The endgame of Orks winning is a forever war of Orks than attacking Orks. Them winning is very much a game over for everyone else, but to be fair, so is pretty much anyone else winning. But Orks becoming more sophisticated is something you can do with their storyline if you felt the need to advance it.


    Some of them, occasionally and rarely. And pretty much only in the Horus Heresy books (as an aside, the absolute worst parts of The War of the Beast is the parts involving Space Marines. Which is most of it sadly). But even in the Horus Heresy books I typically found the marines to be pretty dull in comparison to the human characters surrounding them.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    That makes me think, Orks are just Old One Space Marines. A brutal tool to fight wars. However, the Old Ones made Orks an entire separate species that is born, lives, and dies to fight. While the Emperor made the Space Marines to be changed humans that start from an emotional base, have those emotions pulled away, but they still lurk under the surface able to reappear and bring personality to the killing machine. Which to me shows that while the Old Ones made the superior fighting machines, the Emperor made the more interesting tool, that can also function somewhat outside of always fighting. Everything the orks have made simply further their fighting abilities. Even the diplomats were grown/made/evolved to make the surrender of a planet faster so they could move on to the next fight while setting up supply bases. The part of the War Of The Beast series that shows what happens to a human populace of an Ork controlled world is simply horrifying. Human Cattle, crippled slaves, and devolved frenzied beasts of war. There is no hope for humanity under control of the Orks, as all of that was simply done as a tool for war. Melting down of the populace for food rations, using some as a work force freeing up greenskins for fighting, and even using them as replacements for grots, just to make their wars more efficient. Everything of culture that seems to be "progress" is simply means to an end of more war, more fighting. And this is not limited to the Orks, almost all Xenos races do this to some extent. In most cases, you are lucky if all a Xenos does is kill you. Its why the Craftworld Eldar are "good guys" cause they only kill you. And why the Tau are not as good guy as you think as they do two of those things listed, being crippled slaves and beasts of war. They just go about it kindly, while pretending they are helping you.

    And I fully expect a couple of people will jump to point out that "human cattle, enslaved workforce, and frenzied beasts of war is all stuff the Imperium does too". Oh man, its almost like there are no good guys in 40k, and every side is some level of evil. Even the Craftworld Eldar will wipe out entire planets/species if it means their kind lives on for a few more years. Mankind will wipe out a planet to move in. Eldar will wipe out a planet cause some guy dreamed something from that planet will kill some eldar in a few centuries, and wont even inhabit the now empty planet.

  21. - Top - End - #561
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinus
    The humans are not random as far as I can tell. They are:
    1 priestess
    2 inquisitorial stormtroopers
    1 Ogryn
    I *think* it's supposed to be one Stormtrooper and one Psyker - the female warrior has a shaved head and what appears to be some kind of device around her crown. She's also carrying a sword which is glowing blue - either a power sword or a force-sword? The latter would make sense, since as game balance goes there's usually one 'magic user' to play with.

    I hope to be proven wrong later on when we get more details about the storyline, but on first glance - which is what we were asked for - I want to know who these people are and why they're working together. "They're Imperials and one has a heavy weapon, one has a hammer, and another is an all-rounder" isn't enough to catch my attention; if they were ALL wearing Guardsman uniform, or wearing Inquisitorial iconography then I would be more interested to ask what they were doing and why, but so far "melee/mid-range/long-range classes" seems to be the only reason. Give me a story or premise to get invested in please, trailer!

    The Blackstone Fortress IP is right there and you can use that to let you include abhumans and xenos as playable characters, y'know? I wanted that, but instead it's looks exactly like Vermintide with a 40k skin stapled on top. Vermintide was fine, but I hope there's more to it than they have thus far shown. I don't hate it, not by a long shot, but I'm just not excited either.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2021-02-22 at 08:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Zombies are kind of a boring choice for a 40K game enemy. Sure, they come up in the fluff a few times. But there are more interesting monsters that behave like zombies.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'd say the most boring part of 40K are Space Marines as characters.
    Space Marines work fine as characters. Most people just write them badly.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saambell View Post
    That makes me think, Orks are just Old One Space Marines.
    The Old One's and the Emperor are trying to solve different problems and hence the different approach. The Old Ones are fighting a War In Heaven that is either kill or be killed. If they win they will be able to take their weapons (the Krorks) and stop them, at least in theory. If they lose well they don't mind those weapons still being there being a pain in the ass to their enemies. The Emperor wants to conquer the galaxy for humanity, and then have humanity rule over it. Stopping Space Marine production is WAY easier than Ork production.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    Space Marines work fine as characters. Most people just write them badly.
    I fully agree. There was a website a while back with a bunch of fiction, including a story about a Dark Angels dreadnought that felt constant pain from his 'suit', one about some Imperial Fists defending a Relic/Chapel world, another story about a lone marine and a kid taking on a chaos cult, a novel/novella about some Imperial Guardsmen taking out a tyranid super-creature, and a story called The Intruder about a daemon that stalked the halls of the Inquisition's northern polar fortress on Terra, leaving lumps of coal in their rooms once a year.

    It had some pretty great writing. Unfortunately I can't find the site anymore.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I fully agree. There was a website a while back with a bunch of fiction, including a story about a Dark Angels dreadnought that felt constant pain from his 'suit', one about some Imperial Fists defending a Relic/Chapel world, another story about a lone marine and a kid taking on a chaos cult, a novel/novella about some Imperial Guardsmen taking out a tyranid super-creature, and a story called The Intruder about a daemon that stalked the halls of the Inquisition's northern polar fortress on Terra, leaving lumps of coal in their rooms once a year.

    It had some pretty great writing. Unfortunately I can't find the site anymore.
    Have you tried the Wayback Machine? Or if you've forgotten the URL, do you remember any distinct phrasing from any of the stories that could be used in a targeted search?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    Space Marines work fine as characters. Most people just write them badly.
    A Deathwatch game:
    Me, the GM: Well, a Dire Avenger Exarch drops out of the trees.
    The party: This is gonna be a near-TPK, isn't it?

    Space Marines are everything they're supposed to be:
    - At least twice as strong and tough as a human,
    - They don't need to eat, drink, breathe or sleep for very long periods of time,
    - They're indoctrinated to only fear failure,
    - Their volume, appears to have little - if any - effect on their movement and reflexes, which is meant to appear jarring
    - They can heal from almost any non-amputative injury in less than a minute - and amputative injuries are only slightly more severe.
    - Their only weak point is their head - and even then, they're supposed to wear power-helmets.

    And with all that, Space Marines are losing the war, against Daemons, against Xenos, and against themselves.

    When you put The Mandalorian in Beskar armour and make him almost-literally invulnerable, he is boring, because he isn't threatened. There's no obstacle to overcome, because he's already overcome almost-anything, because he's already invulnerable.

    Genestealers and Eldar are supposed to be able to shred Space Marines to ribbons.
    Orks are supposed to be able to crush a Marine's head with their bare hands.

    Space Marines are supposed to be in danger, in a near-constant basis.
    However, because Space Marines don't feel fear (of death), that causes a narrative problem because the character we're reading about, doesn't feel threatened, and so we - the audience - don't feel that the character is in any danger. Because in addition to that, GW/BL is also Flanderising Xenos species and Daemons, so that the Space Marine(s) have already won the battle, even though they are losing the war, in the wider setting.

    How come the novels only show victories? When the setting only describes losses?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    A Deathwatch game:
    Me, the GM: Well, a Dire Avenger Exarch drops out of the trees.
    The party: This is gonna be a near-TPK, isn't it?

    Space Marines are everything they're supposed to be:
    - At least twice as strong and tough as a human,
    - They don't need to eat, drink, breathe or sleep for very long periods of time,
    - They're indoctrinated to only fear failure,
    - Their volume, appears to have little - if any - effect on their movement and reflexes, which is meant to appear jarring
    - They can heal from almost any non-amputative injury in less than a minute - and amputative injuries are only slightly more severe.
    - Their only weak point is their head - and even then, they're supposed to wear power-helmets.

    And with all that, Space Marines are losing the war, against Daemons, against Xenos, and against themselves.

    When you put The Mandalorian in Beskar armour and make him almost-literally invulnerable, he is boring, because he isn't threatened. There's no obstacle to overcome, because he's already overcome almost-anything, because he's already invulnerable.

    Genestealers and Eldar are supposed to be able to shred Space Marines to ribbons.
    Orks are supposed to be able to crush a Marine's head with their bare hands.

    Space Marines are supposed to be in danger, in a near-constant basis.
    However, because Space Marines don't feel fear (of death), that causes a narrative problem because the character we're reading about, doesn't feel threatened, and so we - the audience - don't feel that the character is in any danger. Because in addition to that, GW/BL is also Flanderising Xenos species and Daemons, so that the Space Marine(s) have already won the battle, even though they are losing the war, in the wider setting.

    How come the novels only show victories? When the setting only describes losses?
    The real reason is that the writers likes space marines and so place them often as their characters then gets attached to their fearless(which sadly removes tension) character.
    Maybe it is because the novels are either supposed to be propaganda or about super heroic space marines that are the exception to the rule?
    Or space marines does win 99.99% of the battles but they still end up dying because they get in countless thousands of battles(They live hundreds of years and only fight so those two traits implies directly that they have a ridiculous win rate because you can not be long lived if you lose fights) and so at some point they end up being grappled by an orc and reduced to a lump of broken bones and meat or end up being hit by one of the weapons that kills space marines in a few hits or in one hit.
    The war is very long and space marines are produced at a very low rate and it is mostly young space marines that gets killed because they do not have all the survival training from battles so in the end while an old space marine lives very long the old space marines still die more often than they recruit a space marine that can reach old age.
    If the space marine recruitment process did not have a death rate this high it still would not matter because space marines are only in an infinitesimal minority of the fights the imperium of mankind have: anything that makes the baseline weapons the guard uses cheaper or stronger at the same cost saves more lives than processes that makes space marines stronger.(But space marine fan techpriest keeps working on making stronger space marines just because it allows to sell more figurines because you are not going to sell new guardsmen figurines by saying "oh those guardsmen have the new and improved lasguns that are 5% cheaper to produce")
    Last edited by noob; 2021-02-24 at 06:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    The real reason is that the writers likes space marines...
    ...Is because Space Marines sell more than any other GW product, so they have a vested interest in making them look great and driving more sales.

    The war is very long and space marines are produced at a very low rate and it is mostly young space marines that gets killed because they do not have all the survival training from battles so in the end while an old space marine lives very long the old space marines still die more often than they recruit a space marine that can reach old age.
    Such is the paradox of immortality. If you live long enough, the chance that you will be horribly maimed and forced to live (forever) in agony and despair inevitably approaches 100%. It's no longer a matter of 'if' it will happen but just 'when' - whether its 1 year away or 10,000, you can't dodge every bullet, every time, forever.

    No wonder so many Space Marines - already superhuman, already immortal - turn to Chaos. Immortality is a lot more fun when one knows they can invoke the gift of their God in order to grow back their arms and legs when they inevitably lose them....
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    A Deathwatch game:
    Me, the GM: Well, a Dire Avenger Exarch drops out of the trees.
    The party: This is gonna be a near-TPK, isn't it?

    Space Marines are everything they're supposed to be:
    - At least twice as strong and tough as a human,
    - They don't need to eat, drink, breathe or sleep for very long periods of time,
    - They're indoctrinated to only fear failure,
    - Their volume, appears to have little - if any - effect on their movement and reflexes, which is meant to appear jarring
    - They can heal from almost any non-amputative injury in less than a minute - and amputative injuries are only slightly more severe.
    - Their only weak point is their head - and even then, they're supposed to wear power-helmets.

    And with all that, Space Marines are losing the war, against Daemons, against Xenos, and against themselves.

    When you put The Mandalorian in Beskar armour and make him almost-literally invulnerable, he is boring, because he isn't threatened. There's no obstacle to overcome, because he's already overcome almost-anything, because he's already invulnerable.

    Genestealers and Eldar are supposed to be able to shred Space Marines to ribbons.
    Orks are supposed to be able to crush a Marine's head with their bare hands.

    Space Marines are supposed to be in danger, in a near-constant basis.
    However, because Space Marines don't feel fear (of death), that causes a narrative problem because the character we're reading about, doesn't feel threatened, and so we - the audience - don't feel that the character is in any danger. Because in addition to that, GW/BL is also Flanderising Xenos species and Daemons, so that the Space Marine(s) have already won the battle, even though they are losing the war, in the wider setting.

    How come the novels only show victories? When the setting only describes losses?
    Pretty long way of saying you agree that poor writing is the problem.
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