Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Cheesegear]

I know those who finish their time in the Deathwatch are allowed to continue using their shoulder pad, but which shoulder does it go on?

Active Chapter Pauldron on the left.
Deathwatch Service supercedes squad-level markings, and goes on the right pauldron.

I want to add a deathwatch shoulder pad to my Librarian, but I don't know which shoulder it should go on.

Squad-level and Tactical-markings (e.g; Horned Skull, for Librarians) go on the left knee.

[Destro_Yersul]

So the answer is that there is no one answer. Various sources have said that they move it, or don't, or that they don't bring their own armour and thus don't get to keep part of it, or any number of other things. There's new fluff, and old fluff, and a lot of it is contradictory.

Ultimately, there are two interpretations, both of which fit reasonably well with the lore. There's also a third thing.

1: The Deathwatch pad remains on the left shoulder. It is custom to modify power armour as little as possible, in order to avoid angering the armour's spirits. The Deathwatch modification and repainting are important to the identity of the Deathwatch, and these changes are accepted. When the marine returns to their chapter, they paint their armour again to show their return, but are allowed to keep the silver left pauldron. It's all about ritual, and trying not to piss off your wargear by changing it too much.

2: The Deathwatch pad moves to the right shoulder, as a battle honour, displacing the squad markings. The Active Chapter pad goes on the left. This allows the marine to retain the Deathwatch honours, while keeping their chapter allegiance in the most prominent place. The chapter is paramount.

The third thing is that Deathwatch pads are not symmetrical. They're designed to fit on the left arm. If you move them to the right, you either need to find a way to get right-shoulder pads, or modify the left-shoulder ones. Whioh way you go will depend on what you have access to, and you can always come up with an explanation for why your specific dudes do it this way or that, assuming you've created your own chapter.

[Wraith]

Is "Idoneth" (from Age of Sigmar's Idoneth Deepkin) pronounced like "Eye-doneth," "Ee-doneth" or "Id-oneth?"

I couldn't find a formal pronunciation on Wikipedia or the Idoneth book so take this with a grain of salt, however in all of the Warhammer TV videos about the army, painting guides, etc, they are referred to as EYE-doneth. That's authority enough for me.

2: The Deathwatch pad moves to the right shoulder, as a battle honour, displacing the squad markings. The Active Chapter pad goes on the left. This allows the marine to retain the Deathwatch honours, while keeping their chapter allegiance in the most prominent place. The chapter is paramount.

I think the key word is 'Active Chapter' - its both traditional and convenient is everyone knows that "left arm = who you're currently working for" and thematically it helps a painted army look cohesive.

Like you said though, if you want Your Guys to do it differently then fair enough - I don't think that a limitation in the models has ever been enough to deter people's ambitions to write their fluff how they want to

[Cheesegear]

I think the key word is 'Active Chapter' - its both traditional and convenient is everyone knows that "left arm = who you're currently working for" and thematically it helps a painted army look cohesive.

In my headcanon, Sven Bloodhowl has Tor Garadon's right pauldron, and vice versa.

Saul Tarvitz and Nathaniel Garro did a similar thing. But I can't model Chapter-specific vambraces.

[Wraith]

In my headcanon, Sven Bloodhowl has Tor Garadon's right pauldron, and vice versa.

I remember Ages Past. Seems like a fitting way for that particular escapade to have ended - they're both beaten bloody, their armour cracked and broken in every plate. Bloodhowl has lost his helmet, both pauldrons and a sizeable chunk of his breastplate, but finally they can see Thunderhawks on the horizon, and all they have to do it wait for the cavalry to pick them up.

Garadon sees it first - the sweetest, and most beautiful sight of his many decades of life - that the Thunderhawk is yellow. His brothers are coming for him.

Brothers... He thinks. My Brothers aren't *coming* for me, there's one already here.

He limped over to Bloodhowl, who was sitting with his back against the stump of a marble pillar. His eyes were closed and he was not moving, but his ragged breath still came in deep heaves, like the snarl of a wolf not yet ready to quit fighting.
"Here." Said Garadon, yanking off one of his own pauldrons and dropping it into Bloodhowl's lap. It was battered and scarred, and the squad icon could barely be made out through a cross-hatch of torn paintwork and alien blood, but it had refused to yield to destruction just as it's wearer had. "Put this on."
Bloodhowl opened one eye - The other was puffy and purple, for even Astartes physiology does not heal that quickly. "You're pauldr-? What do I need this for? The day is won, isn't it? We can rest for all of a minute, surely?"
"You need it." Tor's voice was firm and sure. "My Chapter comes as we speak, and it would not do for them to arrive and you are... improperly dressed." He allowed himself a smile. A small one. Bloodhowl had earned it. "Besides, I... owe you."
Bloodhowl looked up, still not moving to take the pauldron, taking in the quiet meaning that passed between the two of them.
"....You lost my knife, didn't you?" He smirked, melodrama quickly swerving into another spar.
"I did not lose it." Garadon scowled at the accusation, though it was hard to say if he was truly offended. "It's over there."
Bloodhowl followed the Imperial Fist's gesture to the other side of the room. A smouldering crater the size of a battle-tank still glowed ember-hot in the aftermath of a plasma gun's core being ruptured and detonating. Around it were charred fragments of scattered bone and chunks of melted slag which plink'd quietly as it cooled.
"Fair enough." That seemed to be the end of the matter, and Bloodhowl staggered to his feet. A moment's work saw the yellow pauldron affixed to his shoulder, vivid and bright against the winter-grey of the Vlka Fenrika.
"Might need to get it repainted, though." He added, unable to resist. "My Chapter has nothing against personal heraldry, you understand, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Your Lord will not be offended I expect, hey?"
"I'll let him know."

[Platinius]

Like movie-Aragorn wearing movie-Boromir's vambraces, in the epilogue (or was it Arven's vision of the future, I forgot), you could even see Aragorn being buried with them.

I like it^^


And it makes sense, the Space Marines are very brotherly in their treatment of each other. It is one of the few, really nice things in the 40k setting

[Lord Raziere]

And it makes sense, the Space Marines are very brotherly in their treatment of each other. It is one of the few, really nice things in the 40k setting

Of course it makes sense: Wh40k is just the Knights of the Round Table Plus Context.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Would that make Alfabusa's work "Monty Python and the Holy Grail plus context?"

[Lord Raziere]

Would that make Alfabusa's work "Monty Python and the Holy Grail plus context?"

I don't think I can answer this without explaining my joke, and your not supposed to explain the joke.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I mean, I was just trying to piggyback off of your joke with another joke, so...yeah!

[Destro_Yersul]

I think the key word is 'Active Chapter' - its both traditional and convenient is everyone knows that "left arm = who you're currently working for" and thematically it helps a painted army look cohesive.

Like you said though, if you want Your Guys to do it differently then fair enough - I don't think that a limitation in the models has ever been enough to deter people's ambitions to write their fluff how they want to

It occured to me a bit later that the reason for this is that if a space marine is advancing, they are likely doing it with their left side forward, in order to fire their bolter right-handed. Having the Chapter pad on the left therefore presents a unified front. Of course, this is also a great reason to keep the Deathwatch pad on the left - that raised rim ain't just for show, after all.

Either way though, the important thing is more that you end up happy with how your model looks.

[Grytorm]

Hello again. I have been uselessly thinking about a mod for Total War Warhammer 2which will never be made. And I was wondering how reasonable would it be to add Albion themed units to the Norsca race.

The mod would be titled The Locker and The Lighthouse and would feature a Norscan Sorceress racing an ancient seafaring Strigoi King to find a wandering isle and recover a potent artifact for their own purposes.

It might also add an extra Legendary Lord to Norsca to lead a regular Albion faction while the Sorceress has an odder start position.

[Fyraltari]

It occured to me a bit later that the reason for this is that if a space marine is advancing, they are likely doing it with their left side forward, in order to fire their bolter right-handed.

That raises an interesting question, are there any known left-handed Space Marines?

[Lord Raziere]

That raises an interesting question, are there any known left-handed Space Marines?

No, according to the Deathwatch rpg corebook, one of the starting talents of all space marines is "Ambidextrous". Meaning there are no left or right handed space marines. They are all ambidextrous, as the Emperor probably wanted to optimize them to be able to use things well in either hand.

[Fyraltari]

That's... actually the least absurd modification the space marines received, good job, Emp, you get one point.

[Destro_Yersul]

That raises an interesting question, are there any known left-handed Space Marines?

No, according to the Deathwatch rpg corebook, one of the starting talents of all space marines is "Ambidextrous". Meaning there are no left or right handed space marines. They are all ambidextrous, as the Emperor probably wanted to optimize them to be able to use things well in either hand.

This. It makes a lot of sense to include ambidexterity when you're making space marines, since then you can standardise wargear and never need to worry about it. It doesn't matter that power cables for heavy weapons feed around from the right, for example, since every space marine will be able to fire right-handed. They'll never get in the way. It doesn't matter that every bolt weapon ejects shells on the right (whether or not ejecting shells makes sense, that's what they do) . Etc.

[Cheesegear]

It doesn't matter that every bolt weapon ejects shells on the right (whether or not ejecting shells makes sense, that's what they do) . Etc.

I still get so angry about this all the time.
Bolts are caseless ammo. There's no 'shell' to eject.
But every weapon has an ejector port. I vaguely remember that it wasn't an ejector port. It was to prevent the weapon from overheating.
But then why are there are even models with spent ammo casings? If Bolt-weapons are so similar to RPGs, why are they more often depicted as wielding Battle Rifles?

Don't worry though. "Everything is different, do what you want." Canon doesn't matter because writers - and designers - are bad at their jobs, and this excuse allows bad writers and designers continue to write and design badly. But this is me picking on poor, defenseless, penniless, publicly-traded GW.

[Destro_Yersul]

not to mention all the video games and artwork that literally show them ejecting streams of spent casings.

[Cheesegear]

not to mention all the video games and artwork that literally show them ejecting streams of spent casings.

Scratch that.
It seems that Bolts were changed to cased ammo sometime around 5th Ed.
I almost certainly blame Matt Ward.

[Grim Portent]

Hello again. I have been uselessly thinking about a mod for Total War Warhammer 2which will never be made. And I was wondering how reasonable would it be to add Albion themed units to the Norsca race.

The mod would be titled The Locker and The Lighthouse and would feature a Norscan Sorceress racing an ancient seafaring Strigoi King to find a wandering isle and recover a potent artifact for their own purposes.

It might also add an extra Legendary Lord to Norsca to lead a regular Albion faction while the Sorceress has an odder start position.

The OVN lost factions mod adds Albion as a faction in itself.

Generally speaking the people of Albion really don't get along with the Norscans, except the Albionites who joined Be'lakor during his time spent as a corporeal being in the northern part of Albion. Norscans generally only visit Albion to raid on the rare occasions the mists protecting the isle part, and the natives almost never leave. On top of that the people of Albion hate Chaos and many Norscan tribes are corrupted to some extent.

[Thragka]

On the other hand, Fimir are already part of the Norscan roster – aren't they from Albion?

[LeSwordfish]

Don't worry though. "Everything is different, do what you want." Canon doesn't matter because writers - and designers - are bad at their jobs, and this excuse allows bad writers and designers continue to write and design badly. But this is me picking on poor, defenseless, penniless, publicly-traded GW.

sir, this is a wendy's.

[Grim Portent]

On the other hand, Fimir are already part of the Norscan roster – aren't they from Albion?

They can be found in Albion, but are also found throughout the northern Empire and bits of Norsca and Kislev. A lot of them are found in the Wasteland north of Marienburg. Where they actually first came from is unknown.

EDIT: I also imagine they don't get along well with the people of Albion any more than they do the Imperials or Kislevites. A chaos corrupted species that procreates through kidnapped human females is not a good neighbour to have.

[hamishspence]

I still get so angry about this all the time.
Bolts are caseless ammo. There's no 'shell' to eject.

I'm pretty sure the whole "caseless ammo" thing was more explicitly for autoguns than for boltguns. I've got the 2e Wargear book and the Autogun section goes into some detail on how autoguns are caseless. The boltgun section, however, doesn't say anything about boltgun caselessness.

It seems that Bolts were changed to cased ammo sometime around 5th Ed.
I almost certainly blame Matt Ward.

What edition first introduced boltgun models with a visible "ejection port"?


EDIT - 4e had models with ports - but 3e had art with models with ejection ports (and ejected shells in the air) - 3e SM Codex - Veteran Squads.

[LeSwordfish]

Neither 40k wiki makes any reference to bolter ammo being caseless.

[hamishspence]

Maybe people read about gyrojets being caseless, saw the similarities between them and bolters, and jumped to conclusions?

It would be interesting to see what the earliest examples of "bolters ejecting cases" art are - as I mentioned there's some from very early 3e - but is there any in 2e or 1e (Rogue Trader)?

[Destro_Yersul]

The earliest books I own are for 3rd. The Space Marine codex (with Crimson Fists on the cover) has artwork depicting bolters ejecting casings. Quite a lot of it, actually. The 3rd ed. Rulebook has a bolter cutaway with the ejection port labelled, and artwork with spent casings being ejected. But I can't speak for 2nd.

[hamishspence]

Modelwise, the RTB-01 "Beakie" plastic marines from 1e had what looked like ejection ports.

I think it was 2e that tended toward "portless" bolters, before they started being phased back in (several of the Marine models in the 3e rulebook appear to have them, though not all).

[Wraith]

They can be found in Albion, but are also found throughout the northern Empire and bits of Norsca and Kislev. A lot of them are found in the Wasteland north of Marienburg. Where they actually first came from is unknown.

Fimir were the original residents of the Old World before the Old Ones came along and interfered, creating Elves, Dwarfs and Men. They were the first sentient race to worship the Chaos Gods, but were abandoned when it turned out the Man were more interesting and capable of more abstract and entertaining deviance.

Officially the natives of Albion are either human Druids (a specialized sort of Nature Hedge-Wizard) and Giants. The place is infested with the latter in numbers that rival the rest of the Old World combined.

[qechua]

The earliest books I own are for 3rd. The Space Marine codex (with Crimson Fists on the cover) has artwork depicting bolters ejecting casings. Quite a lot of it, actually. The 3rd ed. Rulebook has a bolter cutaway with the ejection port labelled, and artwork with spent casings being ejected. But I can't speak for 2nd.

I just checked my copy of Codex Ultramarines (2e), it has artwork depicting everywhere from no shell casings to ridiculous amounts of shell casings, sometimes in the same piece. The 3e rulebook refers to shells having an "outer casing", as well as being "self propelled". It also includes a cutaway diagram of a Storm Bolter including "multi-directional ejection port (manual ejection port trigger)". My other 2e rulebooks are unfortunately a couple of hundred miles away, so I can't check those.