Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Fyraltari]

So, I was thinking, there are four major chaos gods and each of them is tied to an emotion: Khorne is anger, Tzeentch is hope, Nurgle is despair and Slaanesh is pleasure. But, as far as I know, there are also four minor chaos gods (which goes well with the eight-pointed star logo): Malal/Malice, Hashut, Necoho and the (Great) Horned Rat. So I wonder, what emotions do they deal in?

Here are my ideas:

Necoho is doubt. That one is a no-brainer he's the god of not believing in gods.
Malice is self-loathing: that's the closest emotion I've got to the concept of chaos fighting itself.
Hashut I would say "obedience" maybe? He's supposed to be the god of tyranny and progress but progress seems more like Tzeentch's deal and tyranny applies to all chaos gods so I'm thinking he'd the god of "I was just following orders", those who commit atrocities not because they want to but because they have a boss telling them to?
Horned Rat, I just don't know. Spite maybe? His thing is just rats (which isn't tied to any emotion I can't think of) and destroying other people's stuff for no reason. Or maybe envy as three of his four types of daemons are plagiarized on other gods?

Any idea?

[noob]

So, I was thinking, there are four major chaos gods and each of them is tied to an emotion: Khorne is anger, Tzeentch is hope, Nurgle is despair and Slaanesh is pleasure. But, as far as I know, there are also four minor chaos gods (which goes well with the eight-pointed star logo): Malal/Malice, Hashut, Necoho and the (Great) Horned Rat. So I wonder, what emotions do they deal in?

Here are my ideas:

Necoho is doubt. That one is a no-brainer he's the god of not believing in gods.
Malice is self-loathing: that's the closest emotion I've got to the concept of chaos fighting itself.
Hashut I would say "obedience" maybe? He's supposed to be the god of tyranny and progress but progress seems more like Tzeentch's deal and tyranny applies to all chaos gods so I'm thinking he'd the god of "I was just following orders", those who commit atrocities not because they want to but because they have a boss telling them to?
Horned Rat, I just don't know. Spite maybe? His thing is just rats (which isn't tied to any emotion I can't think of) and destroying other people's stuff for no reason. Or maybe envy as three of his four types of daemons are plagiarized on other gods?

Any idea?

Progress is something modern days tzeentch got but maybe tzeentch did not have progress as an attribution in the past?
Did they have it back then?
Also chaos gods does not have to make sense: all they need is for enough people to fuel them raw thoughts and feelings.
If they had to be each linked to one emotion and that they needed to make sense then the first emotion to create chaos gods would probably be fear and fear being a very common emotion would keep that chaos god at the top so I think it is not just about emotions(or maybe there is a constant fight between varied chaos gods inspiring varied fears killing each other and due to that they barely ever interact with the world).

[Wraith]

Remember that the Chaos Gods don't subsist on just one emotion each. Khorne is also the patron of honour as well as rage, Slaanesh is Agony as well as Ecstasy, and so on. There's no reason that some of their related lesser deities can't over-lap with them just as human/dwarf/elf Gods do as well.

Officially, Malal isn't a Chaos God. He was written out of the setting because GW don't hold the copyright for him any more, and any references to him are so outdated that there's barely anything in the lore that resembles what it did when he was still around. Same with Necoho, in fact - they both only appeared in the WFRP game's 1st Edition which was quite different to the tabletop lore even back then.

Hashut is... weird. He's thought of as being a Chaos God, but he's never acknowledged by any of the non-Dwarf forces of Chaos so he could be either a Greater Demon masquerading as something more powerful in order to keep a little kingdom for itself, or he could be "something else" that turned up during the Great Catastrophe.

Unofficially, I think he's supposed to be a cross between a Mesopotamian Demon (hence his title of 'the Father of Darkness' and the Babylonian look of Chaos Dwarfs) and a Balrog, albeit with the serial numbers filed off. Something dark and evil from the underworld that proclaimed itself a God, and is certainly is powerful enough to be divine, but isn't a member of the Chaos Pantheon. There are several around, after all - the pre-Nagash Khemrian Gods, and the expanded Imperial pantheon all tangibly exist and subside on things other than the 4 basic emotions.

Assuming he even has one, Hashut's emotional portfolio would probably be fear and despair. He's not really into honourable combat like Khorne, but he does demand HUGE numbers of ritualistic blood-sacrifices in order to grant his favour to the Chaos Dwarfs so that seems appropriate.

As for the Great Horned Rat, ambition is probably his key trait - he has spent an eternity scheming to overthrow the world and has long encouraged his children to do the same. According to the WFRP sourcebooks he also considered Skaven making utterances of "hate, malice or envy" to be his prayers, so any kind of spite seems to be his thing, too.

[Keraunograf]

Great Horned Rat is specifically themed to hunger, IMO. Hunger for more power(Ambition), hunger for what others have(envy), hunger for just plain food(gluttony), etc.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

But hunger's explicitly The Great Maw's schtick, isn't it? That's why ogres are always hungry?

[Keraunograf]

But hunger's explicitly The Great Maw's schtick, isn't it? That's why ogres are always hungry?

Maybe the Great Maw is also the Horned Rat, or maybe they do different kinds of hunger, or maybe The Great Maw isn't actually a Chaos entity and is just extraplanar of some other sort, hell if I know, but I've 100% always associated the Horned Rat with Hunger.

[LansXero]

But hunger's explicitly The Great Maw's schtick, isn't it? That's why ogres are always hungry?

No, Ogres are always hungry because they're a weapon.

Ogres were made to be extremely resistant to chaos while also being ravenous and phisically mighty. However, the old ones got roflstomped way too quickly and didn't get to raise the ogres in time. So they were left there until the volcano ( the great maw) erupted and released them.

[Grytorm]

No, Ogres are always hungry because they're a weapon.

Ogres were made to be extremely resistant to chaos while also being ravenous and phisically mighty. However, the old ones got roflstomped way too quickly and didn't get to raise the ogres in time. So they were left there until the volcano ( the great maw) erupted and released them.

I once saw discussion of how to add 40k things to fantasy. One idea was to add Kroot in as another less psychotic weapons project by the Old Ones in the !Africa continent. And an idea to add !Tyranids by making them be the indigenous wildlife of !Australia.

Also is using ! as a prefix meaning not at all standard or did I just make it up?

[Fyraltari]

Progress is something modern days tzeentch got but maybe tzeentch did not have progress as an attribution in the past?
Did they have it back then?

Well, progress is a form of change and change is definitely in Tzeentch's portfolio.

Remember that the Chaos Gods don't subsist on just one emotion each. Khorne is also the patron of honour as well as rage, Slaanesh is Agony as well as Ecstasy, and so on. There's no reason that some of their related lesser deities can't over-lap with them just as human/dwarf/elf Gods do as well.

Officially, Malal isn't a Chaos God. He was written out of the setting because GW don't hold the copyright for him any more, and any references to him are so outdated that there's barely anything in the lore that resembles what it did when he was still around.

Didn't they bring him back as Malice with the Sons of Malice chaos Space Marines?

Same with Necoho, in fact - they both only appeared in the WFRP game's 1st Edition which was quite different to the tabletop lore even back then.

Shame.

Hashut is... weird. He's thought of as being a Chaos God, but he's never acknowledged by any of the non-Dwarf forces of Chaos so he could be either a Greater Demon masquerading as something more powerful in order to keep a little kingdom for itself, or he could be "something else" that turned up during the Great Catastrophe.

Unofficially, I think he's supposed to be a cross between a Mesopotamian Demon (hence his title of 'the Father of Darkness' and the Babylonian look of Chaos Dwarfs) and a Balrog, albeit with the serial numbers filed off. Something dark and evil from the underworld that proclaimed itself a God, and is certainly is powerful enough to be divine, but isn't a member of the Chaos Pantheon. There are several around, after all - the pre-Nagash Khemrian Gods, and the expanded Imperial pantheon all tangibly exist and subside on things other than the 4 basic emotions.

I think Hashut has to be chaos related because, well, they're the Chaos dwarfs, not the dark dwarfs or some such. As for the rest of chaos not acknowledging him, they don't acknowledge the Horned Rat in AoS even after he's taken Slaanesh's spot, so maybe they're just pricks?

Great Horned Rat is specifically themed to hunger, IMO. Hunger for more power(Ambition), hunger for what others have(envy), hunger for just plain food(gluttony), etc.

Ooh, I like this one.

But hunger's explicitly The Great Maw's schtick, isn't it? That's why ogres are always hungry?

Wait is the Great Maw actually a sentient entity? I thought it was essentially a hole in the ground that the ogres jist kind if decided was divine at some point? At the very least, it's not chaos, is it?

[The Glyphstone]

The 8th edition Ogre Kingdoms book apparently has this to say, taken from the wiki:

The strongest and hardiest of the Ogres found themselves even after having eater their weaker brethren , found that the gnawing hunger that visited upon them at the Great Maw's landing would not leave them. No longer able to cross into Cathay due to the poisonous desolation left in the comets wake, the majority of the survivors migrated to the mountain ranges to the west in search of new homeland and respite from the great drought however, one of the oldest legends tell of Groth Onefinger who went further into the desert with the intent of offering sacrifices to the new and powerful god. What he found had since been depicted on a thousand gut-plates and banners, and is forever enched into the history of the Ogres. Before him stretched a gigantic, gaping crater the size of an inland sea, filled with ridge upon ridge of jagged teeth and rippling, convulsing muscles that stretched down and down into nothingness; a gullet so huge it could swallow a race like the Ogres and still hunger for more. It exists there even now, a vile, pulsing god visited upon the face of the world by the vengeful gods.

To this day many Ogres follow in the footsteps of Groth, the first prophet of the Maw, in a pilgrimage to their deity few return, for the Great Maw still hungers. Its presence still writhers like a malevolent worm in the minds of the Ogres, beckoning them forward one by one. So it is that the Ogres travel the world, subconsciously the relentlessness planted in them by their gluttonous god at the time of its birth. Those that have crossed the ocean claim that there is another maw on the other side of the world, a vast, fanged whirlpool that devours any ships that stray to close to it, but these claims are dismissed by the more civilized races as superstition for how could a comet gnaw its way through the core of the planet?

So there's apparently something alive out there, since some of those pilgrims do make it back and presumably saw it in person.

[Fyraltari]

And an idea to add !Tyranids by making them be the indigenous wildlife of !Australia.

Before him stretched a gigantic, gaping crater the size of an inland sea, filled with ridge upon ridge of jagged teeth and rippling, convulsing muscles that stretched down and down into nothingness; a gullet so huge it could swallow a race like the Ogres and still hunger for more.

[...]

Those that have crossed the ocean claim that there is another maw on the other side of the world, a vast, fanged whirlpool that devours any ships that stray to close to it, but these claims are dismissed by the more civilized races as superstition for how could a comet gnaw its way through the core of the planet?

Well, that took care of itself.

[hamishspence]

The "fanged whirlpool" got covered more in the Dreadfleet spinoff. Basically, it's in its own separate dimension - the Galleon's Graveyard, and "draws in death" instead of drawing in life.

[Forum Explorer]

I once saw discussion of how to add 40k things to fantasy. One idea was to add Kroot in as another less psychotic weapons project by the Old Ones in the !Africa continent. And an idea to add !Tyranids by making them be the indigenous wildlife of !Australia.

Also is using ! as a prefix meaning not at all standard or did I just make it up?

In computer programming ! = NOT

I know I often use it as that in my typing.

[Wraith]

I think Hashut has to be chaos related because, well, they're the Chaos dwarfs, not the dark dwarfs or some such.

The main reasons that I give the Balrog theory some credence is because there are other Gods out in the Warhammer universe which are neither Old Ones nor Chaos Gods, so an unaligned-but-still-evil God is quite plausible. Also, the Chaos Dwarfs don't call themselves Chaos Dwarfs - they're Dawi-Zharr which is Fire-Dwarfs - I admit that doesn't necessarily mean a lot, especially if Hashut is a Greater Daemon in disguise, but they at least consider themselves separate from the Chaos powers.

Maybe [the Chaos Gods] are just pricks?

This is, of course, an entirely reasonable assessment, too.

But hunger's explicitly The Great Maw's schtick, isn't it? That's why ogres are always hungry?

Like Glyphstone said - if The Colours From Space landed and turned into a 5 mile-wide Sarlacc, that would be the Great Maw. I have always interpreted it as representing literal physical hunger, whereas the Horned Rat is emotional hunger including envy, jealousy, ambition and the likes.

[Amechra]

Also is using ! as a prefix meaning not at all standard or did I just make it up?

I've seen it plenty of times in older nerd/fandom discussions, but usually as not!Australia or the like. It's generally used to highlight a specific trait of whatever you're talking about - so not!Australia's most important trait is that it's "legally distinct wink wink nudge nudge" from Australia.

Here's more information than you probably wanted.

[Platinius]

While most of you have probably already seen this video, I do find it interesting, in part because the speech of the Primaris Marine is kind of Purple Prose, not unlike the gratuitous style imperial officers write their memoirs in.

Enjoy!

Also, from what I heard about the purple prose used by the imperial officers, the Primaris Marine is actually pretty subdued in his style^^

[Wraith]

Most of the Primaris that I've read about are nowhere near as verbose. The ones in War of Secrets are constantly on the edge of thumping their chests and going "Oo-rah!", and it's actually slightly distracting how 'normal' they are compared to the formality of the Firstborn - even ones like Khârn who, despite being brain-damaged and speaking in a language described as a 'mongrel-tongue', manages some eloquence when he wants to.

[Renegade Paladin]

While most of you have probably already seen this video, I do find it interesting, in part because the speech of the Primaris Marine is kind of Purple Prose, not unlike the gratuitous style imperial officers write their memoirs in.

Enjoy!

Also, from what I heard about the purple prose used by the imperial officers, the Primaris Marine is actually pretty subdued in his style^^

That interpretation wrecks the entire original intent of "Pity the Guardsman," which is supposed to be the Guardsman's defiant and futile spitting in the face of his captor. Having a Marine deliver the speech mid-heroic rescue just misses the whole point.

[Lord Raziere]

That interpretation wrecks the entire original intent of "Pity the Guardsman," which is supposed to be the Guardsman's defiant and futile spitting in the face of his captor. Having a Marine deliver the speech mid-heroic rescue just misses the whole point.

sorry I get your point, but all I can do is shrug and say "Thats WH40k for ya" because detailing the brave sacrifice of the guardsmen while simultaneously hypocritically stomping upon that sacrifice by having the shiniest, latest space marine model deliver it mid-smackdown while still calling the guy a sack of meat just like the Chaos Marine is an entirely WH40k thing to do.

[Kris Strife]

That interpretation wrecks the entire original intent of "Pity the Guardsman," which is supposed to be the Guardsman's defiant and futile spitting in the face of his captor. Having a Marine deliver the speech mid-heroic rescue just misses the whole point.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that way about that animation.

[Grytorm]

I am suddenly remembering my very silly idea for how to retcon Female Space Marines into the setting. Male Space Marines went "No girls allowed." Some arbitrary faction went "Screw you," and made Female Space Marines. The Male Space Marines then spent the next couple of millenium pretending they didn't exist.

This is all inspired by something I learned in a history class. Just with less power armor and intrusive surgery.

[Mystic Muse]

I am suddenly remembering my very silly idea for how to retcon Female Space Marines into the setting. Male Space Marines went "No girls allowed." Some arbitrary faction went "Screw you," and made Female Space Marines. The Male Space Marines then spent the next couple of millenium pretending they didn't exist.

This is all inspired by something I learned in a history class. Just with less power armor and intrusive surgery.

My only issue with this, and I do mean only issue, is that all of the established Primarchs are male.

Easy enough to fix in headcanon/fanon, much harder to fix in the actual setting.

[Avaris]

My only issue with this, and I do mean only issue, is that all of the established Primarchs are male.

Easy enough to fix in headcanon/fanon, much harder to fix in the actual setting.

I’m not sure how that creates an issue for Grytorm’s suggestion? The faction saying ‘no girls allowed’ could be the Emperor, so he makes all the Primarchs male, but then later someone else finds notes from Astarte which shows that restriction is nonsense. After all, men have daughters all the time.

My personal headcanon just has some of the primarchs as female though. I maintain that GW has missed two opportunities to introduce female marines: the first was when the Horus Heresy novels started, the second was Primaris marines (when apparently it was the plan, but they got cold feet).

Approaches to introducing female marines vary a lot among advocates for it. My personal preference is not to make it a big thing, I just have some female marines in my collection, and as far as I’m concerned they’ve always been there. Others like to have a purely female chapter as its own thing, or go with a thing like Grytorm said. Ultimately, it’s putting your own interpretation on the setting, so there are a vaariety of approaches.

[Cheesegear]

I maintain that GW has missed two opportunities to introduce female marines: the first was when the Horus Heresy novels started

Which book would you have done it in?
I don't think the Horus Heresy series - especially in the beginning - is an opportunity to do anything remotely setting-shattering.

If there were going to be female Space Marines, GW should've thought about that back in 1993. They chose not to, and continued to choose not to all the way up to now, in fact.

the second was Primaris marines (when apparently it was the plan, but they got cold feet).

As a new storyline, this was when it should have been done. Everything that came before, still happened and is intact. Don't grow a neckbeard while arguing on the internet just yet, it's fine. After all, anything that isn't new, is old, and anything old, is ****, and therefore irrelevant. Why retcon history when you don't have to, when it isn't part of your business plan? And could in fact, hurt it?

My personal preference is not to make it a big thing...

You're doing 202x wrong. Female Space Marines should dominate the blog cycle for at least two months, if not longer. It would probably be the biggest thing to happen to 40K since 3rd Ed.

Ultimately, itÂ’s putting your own interpretation on the setting...

In which case we fall back on:
Nothing Matters and No-One Cares. Do What You Want.

[Gareth3]

I found an interesting idea on 1d4chan: the Chaos Gods are local to the Milky Way galaxy, and if you left it, you'd be safe from attacks or influence from Chaos. Is there any canon support for this? This could inspire a "Battlestar Galactica" scenario where one faction or a part of it tries to flee the Galaxy.

[noob]

I found an interesting idea on 1d4chan: the Chaos Gods are local to the Milky Way galaxy, and if you left it, you'd be safe from attacks or influence from Chaos. Is there any canon support for this? This could inspire a "Battlestar Galactica" scenario where one faction or a part of it tries to flee the Galaxy.

Maybe the Tyranids were just fleeing their own chaos gods?
Imagine the people running away from the milky way toward the tyranids and finding worse chaos gods?

[Cheesegear]

I found an interesting idea on 1d4chan: the Chaos Gods are local to the Milky Way galaxy, and if you left it, you'd be safe from attacks or influence from Chaos. Is there any canon support for this?

Yes and No. The Chaos Gods - more or less - are attracted to life. Where there is life, there are Chaos Gods. The Silent King himself spent a lot of time in self-imposed exile between Galaxies, where nothing and no-one could get at him, where he waited for life in the Milky Way to implode on itself...Spoiler alert; It didn't.

But, if you got a few people to survive in the void, that would work. If a lot of people got the same idea, and there was a sizable population of Humanoids, with the corresponding psychic bubble that any sizable population has, you'd get the Chaos Gods again.

You'd be safe from influence by the Chaos Gods as long as you were by yourself and/or didn't have a Warp signature (e.g; Like the Silent King).

[Kris Strife]

I thought it was the warp/immaterium itself that relied on sentient beings to be produced, and that getting enough sentients far enough away from the galaxy would just create a new pocket of it, that might, in time, create another Chaos god, but the current 4 wouldn't be able to access said pocket?

[Forum Explorer]

I found an interesting idea on 1d4chan: the Chaos Gods are local to the Milky Way galaxy, and if you left it, you'd be safe from attacks or influence from Chaos. Is there any canon support for this? This could inspire a "Battlestar Galactica" scenario where one faction or a part of it tries to flee the Galaxy.

I don't think it's confirmed one way or the other, but there is some evidence for it. Namely the Tyranids have had to adapt to fighting Chaos, which in of itself, didn't initially know what Tyranids were. So that suggests that it's the first encounter for both of them, which likely means that Chaos as we know it is exclusive to this galaxy.

I've always wanted to write a Craftworld that has that as it's exact goal. To leave and go to another galaxy, in order to escape Chaos, Tyranids, and whatever else.


On the topic of Marines, I kinda want a paragraph of fluff in their codex talking about how much of their humanity they've lost.

[Cheesegear]

On the topic of Marines, I kinda want a paragraph of fluff in their codex talking about how much of their humanity they've lost.

Why? There's whole novels dedicated to that exact concept. The Deathwatch RPG is based almost entirely around it.
That's why it's notable when the Salamanders and Logan Grimnar (and only Logan Grimnar) treat Guardsmen as people, instead of as ablative wounds.

Stating that they're abhuman, introverted monsters in all but name, wouldn't be family friendly. So that's probably why it's not in the Codecies, and Space Marines are basically treated as really big, really strong humans...But otherwise human.