Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Wraith]

I thought it was the warp/immaterium itself that relied on sentient beings to be produced, and that getting enough sentients far enough away from the galaxy would just create a new pocket of it, that might, in time, create another Chaos god, but the current 4 wouldn't be able to access said pocket?

The answer is 'Maybe'.

You are correct in that emotions power the warp, but the warp has always been there even before the Gods and Daemons were formed. It was quiet and empty, but the raw essence of the stuff existed, waiting to be moulded, and once it had been awakened then it had always been awake.... if you follow me. Like Slaanesh - it was born in the 30th millennium, and once it was born, then it had always existed? The warp is the same - even when it wasn't being used, it was there, waiting.

But also; Chaos is not restricted only to the Warp. Daemons can manifest outside of the Eye of Terror, Sorcery works in real-space, corruption can happen to someone no matter their background or location. Just being far away from the Milky Way would probably take you away from the worst of the Gods' influence, but as long as you take emotions with you then you're never truly safe from them.

Warp-capable ships can travel beyond the edge of the galaxy - Solar Macharius did it - so there is warpspace there, the only thing holding them back is that they lose sight of the Astronomicon and have no means of navigating. If they could find a similar point of reference to aim at as their destination, travelling to another galaxy would just be a matter of time.

Similarly, the Warp gets described as an Ocean but really acts more like a Time-Wimey-Bubble in that you don't just sail through it, but you can go in it, over it and between it too - you can sail into the Eye of Terror one day, and sail out of the Maelstrom another, if you know the routes and tides.
So, it's not as though leaving this galaxy and establishing a new Empire in Andromeda would help you - in theory, it would be possible to enter the warp in one side and exit it in the other, the empty space in between being psychologically freakish but not particularly impregnable.

It'd probably be like the Webway, come to think of it - if you know an entrance big enough then you can fly a ship into the webway and travel FTL through the 'tunnels', which are more or less safe but also oppressively empty of any kind of stimulus - no light, no radiation, no radio waves, just claustrophobic blackness in every direction, with the vague prayer of hoping that you're pointing in the right direction to find the exit.

Then again, all of this might be wrong and the Chaos Gods could absolutely get to you if they chose to turn their attention your way. The End Times for Warhammer Fantasy Battles ends this way - the Old World snuffs out like the last candle in a dark room, and the Chaos Gods just turn away and wander off to find a new universe to play with.
If they can and do traverse universes and realities in search of playthings, something as small as 'the next galaxy over' is probably quite trivial.

[Eldan]

I don't think it's confirmed one way or the other, but there is some evidence for it. Namely the Tyranids have had to adapt to fighting Chaos, which in of itself, didn't initially know what Tyranids were. So that suggests that it's the first encounter for both of them, which likely means that Chaos as we know it is exclusive to this galaxy.

I've always wanted to write a Craftworld that has that as it's exact goal. To leave and go to another galaxy, in order to escape Chaos, Tyranids, and whatever else.


On the topic of Marines, I kinda want a paragraph of fluff in their codex talking about how much of their humanity they've lost.

IT would be interesting to see if the Eldar could survive that. Kind of all their technology is warp-reliant, especially their manufacturing. If they can't sing stuff into existence anymore, I'd think they'd be kind of screwed.

Maybe some Eldar could settle a hollowed-out asteroid with some Exodites and sling it towards Andromeda.

[Avaris]

Why? There's whole novels dedicated to that exact concept. The Deathwatch RPG is based almost entirely around it.
That's why it's notable when the Salamanders and Logan Grimnar (and only Logan Grimnar) treat Guardsmen as people, instead of as ablative wounds.

Stating that they're abhuman, introverted monsters in all but name, wouldn't be family friendly. So that's probably why it's not in the Codecies, and Space Marines are basically treated as really big, really strong humans...But otherwise human.

Not everyone reads the novels, and given Marines are such a core part of the setting there should be at least be hints towards it. And to be fair, there are: the Salamanders entry in the codex for example talks about how they have a much closer connection to humanity than others.

Similarly, the Warp gets described as an Ocean but really acts more like a Time-Wimey-Bubble in that you don't just sail through it, but you can go in it, over it and between it too - you can sail into the Eye of Terror one day, and sail out of the Maelstrom another, if you know the routes and tides.

Emphasising the ocean (but more so) analogy. The way I understand chaos and the warp is that each soul is a pebble thrown into a large body of water. In the Milky Way these pebbles are thrown in by the bucket load, creating eddies and currents that form a life of their own: the chaos gods. Those ripples don’t really spread across the vast gulf between galaxies, so any chaos gods or equivalent would be dependent on circumstances in that galaxy.

[Wraith]

Emphasising the ocean (but more so) analogy. The way I understand chaos and the warp is that each soul is a pebble thrown into a large body of water. In the Milky Way these pebbles are thrown in by the bucket load, creating eddies and currents that form a life of their own: the chaos gods. Those ripples don’t really spread across the vast gulf between galaxies, so any chaos gods or equivalent would be dependent on circumstances in that galaxy.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, because I don't think that enough has been written on the subject of travelling to other galaxies that either of us can definitively point to evidence.

To my mind though; it's still part of the same ocean, and swimming/sailing from one part of it to another just takes time and motivation.
For extra-temporal beings that have existed since the dawn of sentient thought they certainly have time, and once all life in the Milky Way has been consumed then they'll have plenty of motivation to make the journey elsewhere, too - assuming they don't travel with the first colonists and be there from the beginning anyway.

[Cheesegear]

Not everyone reads the novels...

Which is pretty terrible, given that this is the fluff thread. Who wants to discuss what side Alpharius was on? And how does his dialogue during his duel with Rogal Dorn - and his defeat - influence what we know about him? Who remembers the scene with Alpharis, Erebus and Horus? What was Alpharius even doing? Were there Alpha Legion Loyalists? Or was it just Alpharius acting alone? What was even happening at the Pylons?

Remember Lorgar; Bearer of the Word? Let's talk about all the things that Kor Phaeron did wrong - or right - by bringing up Lorgar.
Could Magnus have even saved Lorgar if he had tried? Or was Lorgar already doomed no matter what Magnus did, because Kor Phaeron's hooks were so deep?

Why is Lion so...Lion?

Is anyone else mad that they released rules and models for Valerian and Aleya, except made them basically unplayable?

That, or GW's books are so poorly reviewed that even if you wanted to buy them, you shouldn't.
...But I digress.

there should be at least be hints towards it. And to be fair, there are

Emphasis mine. But also that's all you're gonna get. This is like the Devastation of Baal that you wanted to learn about. You get told that a thing happened:
a) The little information you have, is enough of a seed for you to start making your own threads up, or
b) The little information you have, is enough of a seed to get you interested to buy the book about the event, or
c) GW deliberately infuriates people by not telling them what they want to know.

Personally, I don't think 'C' would be incorrect. Half marks. See me after class.

[Adrastos42]

I am suddenly remembering my very silly idea for how to retcon Female Space Marines into the setting. Male Space Marines went "No girls allowed." Some arbitrary faction went "Screw you," and made Female Space Marines. The Male Space Marines then spent the next couple of millenium pretending they didn't exist.

This is all inspired by something I learned in a history class. Just with less power armor and intrusive surgery.

Semi unrelated but made me realise something I'm annoyed I didn't think of earlier - the canon reason for there only being male space marines is that the procedure is only biologically compatible with males. But sex isn't gender, so there's no canon reason you couldn't have trans women space marines, right? Or non-binary, genderfluid, genderqueer, etc, of course.

[Grim Portent]

Semi unrelated but made me realise something I'm annoyed I didn't think of earlier - the canon reason for there only being male space marines is that the procedure is only biologically compatible with males. But sex isn't gender, so there's no canon reason you couldn't have trans women space marines, right? Or non-binary, genderfluid, genderqueer, etc, of course.

Broadly speaking space marines don't even really identify as male, they're mostly something closer to agendered, or at least indifferent. Asexual as well.

They superficially resemble men, much the way they superficially resemble humans in general, but they're significantly divorced from human gender dynamics and identities. They have more in common with mono-gendered species or sentient constructs than a species with a gender binary or spectrum.


Now from a meta perspective they are usually coded as male, but more because they draw on a lot of tropes traditionally associated with male characters and old male dominated military groups than because anything they actually do is particularly man-ish.

EDIT: Oh, and they also often come from societies with reasons to enforce a more traditional gender dynamic. Feral tribesmen, feudal knights, illiterate scav gangs and so on. As children they are probably encouraged/forced to comply with their assigned gender by their native communities, then when they become space marines the whole thing ceases to be relevant to them because of all the hypno-indoctrination.

[Cheesegear]

But sex isn't gender, so there's no canon reason you couldn't have trans women space marines, right?

That's the way a guy in my meta did it.

Broadly speaking space marines don't even really identify as male...

Well, yes they do. All the time.

Asexual as well.

Being chemically castrated will do that to you.
However Lukas the Trickster's canon is weird and doesn't really gel.

[LansXero]

{scrubbed}

[Grim Portent]

Well, yes they do. All the time.

There's a distinction to be drawn between using masculine pronouns and fashion styles and identifying as male the same way a mortal human does. Orkz tick many of the same boxes as marines in terms of how they self identify, but to call them men would be quite innacurate to their perspective.

In a few of the novels I've read the marines barely even seem to understand what mortal men and women are on a personal level, seeing both as kind of pointless little bobbleheads made of meat. The only ones I can think of that seemed to notice a meaningful difference was during the Horus Heresy.

[Adrastos42]

Yeah, that's an interesting question on whether space marines retain enough humanity to even have or care about gender as we think of it. You could definitely make an argument that as a transhuman, every space marine is trans, Male-to-Space Marine.

But with the discussion above about how much humanity marines retain, culture between chapters differs enough to have room for both, I feel. I think it was Cheesegear who mentioned Space Wolves and Salamanders upthread as retaining more humanity? I could see them keeping a human-ish concept of gender, while a less human chapter like, I don't know, which chapters go further from humanity, Exorcists maybe? Wouldn't care or even necessarily understand the question as applied to them.

LansXero- I'd like to not get into this except to politely note that I disagree with some of your premises. And I think you may have misunderstood the intention of "strong female character" (unless you're saying we've misunderstood) - it's not about them being physically strong and tough so much as being well-written 3d characters who can carry a narrative themselves.

[Lord Raziere]

LansXero- I'd like to not get into this except to politely note that I disagree with some of your premises. And I think you may have misunderstood the intention of "strong female character" (unless you're saying we've misunderstood) - it's not about them being physically strong and tough so much as being well-written 3d characters who can carry a narrative themselves.

Yeah. We'd probably have a better chance of doing that with like, a novel about Amberly Vail than female space marines.

But I wouldn't complain if they pulled it off with the Sisters of Battle somehow, if only for the challenge of portraying their very zealous and pure faith mindset and the humanity underneath it at the same time.

[Cheesegear]

it's not about them being physically strong and tough...

The problem is that when you're talking about Space Marine recruitment, and super-soldiers, it is. It literally is.
For that not to be the case, GW has to undo what a Space Marine, is, and what it takes to not only be selected for the trials, but to pass all the trials, too. 'Strong and tough' is in the job description. Not just strong and tough, though. The most strongest, and the most toughest, on an entire planet, are the ones who get picked to be Space Marines. It's a percentile of a percentile of a percentile that make it.

In Sons of Dorn, the Imperial Fists have a quota of 2000 boys to pick up. On the entire planet. Of those 2000 - from the entire planet - three, become Scouts. The rest get Serf'd or Servitor'd or Die.

As I said, if you want to undo or retcon what a Space Marine is, do that. Because it's not so simple as "Girls can be Space Marines, too." ...Unless you make it that way. Because in order to do that, you're ignoring what a Space Marine is, just so you can get to the bit you want...

Nothing matters and no-one cares. Do what you want.

[JNAProductions]

The problem is that when you're talking about Space Marine recruitment, and super-soldiers, it is. It literally is.
For that not to be the case, GW has to undo what a Space Marine, is, and what it takes to not only be selected for the trials, but to pass all the trials, too. 'Strong and tough' is in the job description. Not just strong and tough, though. The most strongest, and the most toughest, on an entire planet, are the ones who get picked to be Space Marines.

As I said, if you want to undo or retcon what a Space Marine is, do that. Because it's not so simple as "Girls can be Space Marines, too." ...Unless you make it that way. Because in order to do that, you're ignoring what a Space Marine is, just so you can get to the bit you want...

Nothing matters and no-one cares. Do what you want.

I think that what Adrastos is saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is not about 40k specifically. They're talking about general stories and narratives.

[Wraith]

You could definitely make an argument that as a transhuman, every space marine is trans, Male-to-Space Marine.

It's not even an argument - GW uses the word transhuman freely in codices and novels to describe Astartes, Custodes and Assassins after the philosophical school of transhumanism founded in the 1950's.

Note that in this case trans- is used in the context of "to surpass" rather "to transition", so it shouldn't have the same connotations as being transgender - Astartes are very much forcibly turned into something abnormal and their sexual preference/identity is a by-product of the procedure, rather than the expression.

[LeSwordfish]

'Strong and tough' is in the job description. Not just strong and tough, though. The most strongest, and the most toughest, on an entire planet, are the ones who get picked to be Space Marines. It's a percentile of a percentile of a percentile that make it.

This only works if it's an absolute immutable law of your setting that the strongest and toughest young people are exclusively male. And it needn't be.

[comicshorse]

This only works if it's an absolute immutable law of your setting that the strongest and toughest young people are exclusively male. And it needn't be.

Or for that matter that the strength referred to is physical strength and not strength of will

[Cheesegear]

This only works if it's an absolute immutable law of your setting that the strongest and toughest young people are exclusively male. And it needn't be.

It doesn't have to be, no. Didn't say that it was.
Follow up question, though. Are the 'people' in your setting, Human? If the answer is 'yes', you're going to run into some biological problems. Unless you handwave or address them directly.

If you handwave it away, you're gonna get questions about why you had to handwave it away.
If you address it directly...Well, most people don't. "Girls can be Space Marines, too." ...and then they are.

Similar to a show I've seen a few episodes of that had Freddie Highmore in it. Umm...There's no rule that says someone with TV!Autism couldn't be a doctor. But I'm saying that that guy, with that level of TV!Autism, couldn't have made it through University. Unless there's something that handwaves or addresses the fact that you don't just wake up one day and boop!, you're a doctor.

Same thing with House, M.D. and my Dad swearing up and down that he should've been fired at least several dozen times. Having actually seen most of House, I know that they do handwave it away almost every time.

Or for that matter that the strength referred to is physical strength and not strength of will

You make it sound like Space Marines don't recruit from both at the same time. That's why Librarians do a mindr*** on Neophytes. Not just to check for Taint, but to check them.
Not only are Space Marine Recruits star-level athletes and fighters, they show signs of psychopathy, they show high levels of intelligence, and they show force of will and determination. You have to have all of those things.

You take a psychopath,
The strongest, smartest and most adaptable psychopath of their generation, on their planet,
and you make them a weapon.
That's what a Space Marine, is.

Could it be a girl? ...I dunno. Maybe?
If so, how many of them would be girls?

[LeSwordfish]

Follow up question, though. Are the 'people' in your setting, Human? If the answer is 'yes', you're going to run into some biological problems. Unless you handwave or address them directly.

I feel like you're trying not to say "Men are just stronger than women" but that's pretty obviously what you're implying.

[LCP]

If you handwave it away, you're gonna get questions about why you had to handwave it away.

In 40K? The setting where high gravity turns humans into ogres and inbreeding turns them into hobbits? The setting with Space Orcs? The setting full of actual wizards? I don't think you need to take such questions very seriously. When you're watching an episode of Futurama about how Leela's parents are sewer mutants do you say "ah Matt Groening is going to have some Questions to Answer about the genetics at play here"?

[Cheesegear]

I feel like you're trying not to say "Men are just stronger than women" but that's pretty obviously what you're implying.

Luckily, that's not what I said or implied.
What I'm implying is that the most strongest of men, are stronger than the most strongest of women.

In 40K? The setting where high gravity turns humans into ogres and inbreeding turns them into hobbits? The setting with Space Orcs? The setting full of actual wizards? I don't think you need to take such questions very seriously.

Then don't take it seriously.
Nothing matters and no-one cares. Do whatever you want.

[LCP]

Then don't take it seriously. This thread is meaningless.

You know you can have a discussion of a work of fiction without treating that work of fiction as a world with an independent, objective existence, right?

Saying "this story is not an exactingly correct simulation of a possible world" only makes discussion meaningless if the only thing you're interested in discussing is whether statements about the story are Correct or Incorrect. Which is a hell of a boring discussion in the first place.

[Cheesegear]

Saying "this story is not an exactingly correct simulation of a possible world" only makes discussion meaningless if the only thing you're interested in discussing is whether statements about the story are Correct or Incorrect. Which is a hell of a boring discussion in the first place.

Here's how the setting works.
"Well I'm ignoring or changing that part."
Okay. Well there are problems with doing that.
"Well I'm ignoring and changing those too."
Good talk. Do what you want, then.

[LeSwordfish]

Here's how the setting works.
"Well I'm ignoring that part."
Okay. Well there are problems with doing that.
"Well I'm ignoring those too."
Good talk.

It's kind of you to edit LCP's point into your own post for him.

[LCP]

Here's how the setting works.
"Well I'm ignoring or changing that part."
Okay. Well there are problems with doing that.
"Well I'm ignoring and changing those too."
Good talk. Do what you want, then.

These discussions are only happening in your head.

[Squark]

Luckily, that's not what I said or implied.
What I'm implying is that the most strongest of men, are stronger than the most strongest of women.

As adults, yes. But at the age initiates are taken in, the difference would be negligible. Actually, would the girls have an advantage from being in puberty longer?

[LeSwordfish]

These discussions are only happening in your head.

And who's viewpoint are we meant to be agreeing with anyway?

As adults, yes. But at the age initiates are taken in, the difference would be negligible. Actually, would the girls have an advantage from being in puberty longer?

In addition I can't help but feel that once you've developed a process to go from "eleven-year-old" to "nine foot walking tank" the muscle mass of the eleven-year-old is by-the-by anyway.

[Cheesegear]

And who's viewpoint are we meant to be agreeing with anyway?

Females should be able to be Space Marines. But you would have to change how Space Marines are recruited and/or get made for that to happen, inside the setting that's already established.
...Primaris Marines would've been good time to introduce them, since they changed a lot about Space Marines anyway, why not the sex of the recruits, too?
Yes. It would have been a good time to do that. Silly GW. Why didn't they do that?

We're all in agreement that females Should (capitalised) be Space Marines... I think.

The disagreement is how you want to make that happen. Since there's no canon for it...Do whatever you want. Or don't.

[LeSwordfish]

Females should be able to be Space Marines. But you would have to change how Space Marines are recruited and/or get made for that to happen, inside the setting that's already established.
...Primaris Marines would've been good time to introduce them, since they changed a lot about Space Marines anyway, why not the sex of the recruits, too?
Yes. It would have been a good time to do that. Silly GW. Why didn't they do that?

We're all in agreement that females Should (capitalised) be Space Marines... I think.

The disagreement is how you want to make that happen. Since there's no canon for it...Do whatever you want. Or don't.

I'm talking more generally. Like in the dialogue you made up, is the "heres why you're wrong" person the one we're meant to agree with?

[Grim Portent]

One option for having female space marines on a small scale would be if there was an abhuman strain that made it not only possible but sensible for the local chapter to recruit both.

Space Marines recruit from poplations that deviate from the human norm all the time, the Salamanders being the prime example, recruiting heavily from the abhumans of their homeworld. If there was a subsector somewhere filled with tribals who had evolved away from sexual dimorphism, or who had less of a range cap between male and female physical ability then it would be silly for a marine chapter recruiting from the world to dismiss the females that got into the highest percentage of physical performance.


On a similar note, Catachan. I don't think any canon chapters recruit from there for some reason, but given the fluff of the Catachan people I think it would be fair to say that their women are physically stronger than most non-Catachan men, though how they compare to their own men is a matter of conjecture. If a space marine rolled up to round up recruits, and it was physically possible for a female to become a space marine, it would be a place where some of the girls would probably qualify.