Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Cheesegear]

I'm talking more generally. Like in the dialogue you made up, is the "heres why you're wrong" person the one we're meant to agree with?

1. Here's how the setting works. Stories that take place inside the setting, should make sense within the setting.
2. The setting is restrictive. So I changed the setting in order to make my story work, so now my story makes sense.

You're not meant to agree - or disagree - with either of them because both are correct.
You can have a preference for one or the other. But that's up to you. But neither of them is wrong, per se.

The problem, is what you're changing, is sex dynamics of fictional characters. Which is problematic because of the real world. Not because of anything actually happening in the setting itself.

I dunno. Maybe someone in this thread can enter one of them short story competitions and the theme is "Girl wants to be a Space Marine and gets told she can't." ...Then she becomes an Inquisitor, and does Biologus things with her Tech-Priest, meets Fabius Bile and learns secrets, tells Cawl - and his little AIs too! - to go **** himself. Then she designs a way for girls to become Space Marines for all the girls who come after her.

Guilliman poops himself as he realises that his recruitment pool just effectively doubled, and now he has upper hand on Abaddon.
At last The Milky Way is saved, ey Fall Out Boy?

One option for having female space marines on a small scale would be if there was an abhuman strain that made it not only possible but sensible for the local chapter to recruit both.

You can say whatever you want. You can, in fact, say "Cawl Fixed It." and you wouldn't even need an abhuman strain. Cawl invented Eliminators, which are better than Fire Dragons. Don't ask me how he did it. But the bastard did it. So he can do anything. Hell, you can even say "Fabius Bile did it, and as a Slaaneshi, he's laughing all the way to the bank, as Loyalists and Grognards **** and **** themselves with rage."

If there was a subsector somewhere filled with tribals who had evolved away from sexual dimorphism, or who had less of a range cap between male and female physical ability then it would be silly for a marine chapter recruiting from the world to dismiss the females that got into the highest percentage of physical performance.

I think the problem there actually is the same with Salamanders:
It's not actually intended. It's a mutation. It's abnormal.

Again, there are dozens and dozens of reasons of how you could justify female Space Marines:
Something, something Kor Phaeron.
Something, something Hector Rex.

It's incredibly easy to do. And if that's what you want to do, then do it.

[Eldan]

I mean, new setting elements are introduced all the time. Retcons too. When a new planet is mentioned, that planet has always existed. When an obscure ordo of the inquisition shows up, it has been around for thousands of years, most likely. A new titan shows up in a Forgeworld book? Been around since the Heresy.

I don't think female marines are a technical problem. Next edition, write in a few female special characters, say they were always there, done.

The question is how much the fanbase would be willing to swallow and how much of an internet trashfire GW wants.

[LansXero]

{scrubbed}

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Re-opened.

[Gareth3]

I'm thinking about creating a custom Space Marine chapter, and I'm looking for inspiration. Are there any particularly good fan-made chapters you've seen? I'm thinking more of the backstory and special characters.

[Adrastos42]

I can't think of any specifics immediately, but I bet the bolter and chainsword forums will have plenty of inspiration available if you look around. I haven't been on there much in a while, but here's their fanmade chapter lore forum (I think) as a starter: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/f...iber-astartes/

[Wraith]

Do you have any sort of theme or starting point in mind? Even something simple like what colour heraldry they will wear or which Legion they might be descended from? The problem with Space Marine Chapters is that there's a thousand of 'em, all different, so we could throw pretty much anything at you.

Personally, I like the "redeemed Heretic Legions" founding for Chapters - a company, or even squad, of Heresy-era Traitors turned their back on their Fallen Primarch and did something heroic to prove that they could be trusted by the Imperium, enough that they were allowed to become a Chapter of their own.

The Silver Skulls (Iron Warriors), Red Scorpions (Emperor's Children), Blood Ravens (Thousand Sons) and a few others - they all have heroic/tragic backstories and a super-secret secret that they can't let anyone find out about. They're pretty cool.

[Gareth3]

Thanks for the answers. I have a couple of ideas. One comes from the claim that Primaris marines can't be corrupted by Chaos. So a chapter is formed that takes advantage of that, making an anti-Chaos force in a different way to the Grey Knights. Maybe they don't have psykers, use Blanks in important positions, use Tau warp technology, or what have you. The other is a chapter that recruits from a world that defeated a Genestealer cult, and has advantages when fighting Tyranids.

[Forum Explorer]

Thanks for the answers. I have a couple of ideas. One comes from the claim that Primaris marines can't be corrupted by Chaos. So a chapter is formed that takes advantage of that, making an anti-Chaos force in a different way to the Grey Knights. Maybe they don't have psykers, use Blanks in important positions, use Tau warp technology, or what have you. The other is a chapter that recruits from a world that defeated a Genestealer cult, and has advantages when fighting Tyranids.

One of the psychic awakenings has a Primaris detachment fall to Chaos, so that claim is proven false.

[Renegade Paladin]

One of the psychic awakenings has a Primaris detachment fall to Chaos, so that claim is proven false.

If you refer to the Brazen Drakes, their Primaris reinforcements didn't fall to Chaos; they were slaughtered by the Custodes come to deliver them before they had the chance.

[Gareth3]

One of the psychic awakenings has a Primaris detachment fall to Chaos, so that claim is proven false.

Yeah, the claim is pretty dubious if the marines still have human minds. On the other hand, having a whole chapter based on the assumption that Primaris marines can't fall to Chaos, and having that assumption be wrong, is an even better backstory.

[Forum Explorer]

If you refer to the Brazen Drakes, their Primaris reinforcements didn't fall to Chaos; they were slaughtered by the Custodes come to deliver them before they had the chance.

Eh, they would've fallen to Chaos if they got a chance. It's a rare Renegade Marine who can resist falling to Chaos, if only for survivals sake when the Imperium is gunning after you. Particularly an entire detachment's worth who can't exactly blend in.

Yeah, the claim is pretty dubious if the marines still have human minds. On the other hand, having a whole chapter based on the assumption that Primaris marines can't fall to Chaos, and having that assumption be wrong, is an even better backstory.

I agree to that. It would make for a pretty cool story.

[thethird]

Blood Ravens (Thousand Sons)

Haven't been playing much attention to the horus heresy and stuff. But has there been any development in that front lately? I remember reading at some point arguments for the blood ravens being descendants of loyalist word bearers.

Thanks for the answers. I have a couple of ideas. One comes from the claim that Primaris marines can't be corrupted by Chaos. So a chapter is formed that takes advantage of that, making an anti-Chaos force in a different way to the Grey Knights. Maybe they don't have psykers, use Blanks in important positions, use Tau warp technology, or what have you.

Sounds like exorcists with extra tech heresy, I would look at them and see if you want to incorporate some of their trappings into their chapter. The only cases of space marines using alien tech that come to mind though are in the deathwatch, so yeah you probably want to fluff something new there.

The other is a chapter that recruits from a world that defeated a Genestealer cult, and has advantages when fighting Tyranids.

Check the Imperius Reavers (their color scheme is a pain in the ass though). Veterans of the Tyrannic wars and with a Genestealer cult in their home planet (although that's been erradicated). While I wouldn't use them outright (again that color scheme) they are there.

[Wraith]

Haven't been playing much attention to the horus heresy and stuff. But has there been any development in that front lately? I remember reading at some point arguments for the blood ravens being descendants of loyalist word bearers.

Not yet. The Second Founding happens a year or two after Horus' death, and at the moment the Heresy books are just about to the point where the Imperial Palace is being assaulted directly - we're a couple (?) of books away from Sanguinius' famous rematch with Ka'Bandha for example, which as far as I know is the last important thing to happen before the Emperor assaults the Vengeful Spirit.

For now, "the Blood Ravens are Loyalist descendants of a Traitor Legion" is still just rumour and coincidence. A plausible one, given what we know for certain about Chapters like the Silver Skulls, but no one has yet published the words "Yes, it is true" so there's still room to give it a twist somewhere, if they ever wanted to.

As for them being Word Bearers; that could be one of the twists that could happen. Everyone assumes they're Thousand Sons because they're all Psykers rather than Sorcerers, and because they wear the same colours on their armour as pre-Heresy Thousand Sons. If that turns out to be a double-bluff and they're really from another Legion... Could be interesting, but might annoy some of the pro-Thousand Sons' fanbase who want 'their Guys' to still be around.

[Cheesegear]

Thanks for the answers. I have a couple of ideas. One comes from the claim that Primaris marines can't be corrupted by Chaos.

The claim was effectively made for two reasons:

1. Cawl's Awakened, were essentially fresh out of the womb. They couldn't be corrupted by Chaos because they had no concept of what Chaos was. This was a problem in the early stages, because Cawl's Awakened had no concept of who or why they were fighting, and they didn't understand the history behind The Long War. This was one of the many rifts between Firstborn and the Awakened "What's a Primarch, and why should I give a ****? Don't gun go pew pew and Chainsowrd go burrr?" But this goes away once Chapters started making their own Primaris Marines. Cawl has nothing to do with current Primaris Marines, and there's no excuse for them not to know about The Long War. Welcome to 9th Ed., it's not 8th Ed. anymore.

2. Chaos can't have nice things. "Those are some really cool 2-Wound Troops models, and 3-Wound Elites models you've got there, can we get those, too?" ...No. You get Death Guard, that's enough for Chaos. "But what if I don't play Death Guard in 8th Ed.?" ...Shut up. No Primaris Marines. Primaris Marines can't be corrupted by Chaos, because Chaos doesn't have Primaris Marines. That's some pretty solid logic right there. Clearly, if Primaris Marines could be corrupted by Chaos, then Chaos would have them. You can't argue with that.

The other is a chapter that recruits from a world that defeated a Genestealer cult, and has advantages when fighting Tyranids.

The problem is that that 'advantage' should go away, after a generation or two. Same as the Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veterans. Once the 'war' is over, the skills are no longer needed, and, ultimately lost over time, because the Veterans who fought in the War die out and don't pass on their knowledge because there's no need to.

What you would really have to do, is make a Crusade Chapter that explicitly hunts down and roots out Genestealer infestations in front of - and left behind by - Hive Fleet tendrils. That way their knowledge-base remains current and they're always overcoming the adaptations made by the Tyranids, doing their best to stay ahead of the Hive Fleet, and predicting future evolutions. A Chapter like this would have strong ties to both the Deathwatch and Imperial Guard. Operating as the vanguard of Imperial forces, picking up information and battle tactics early, and disseminating that information and tactics among Imperial forces as quickly as possible (e.g; Like the Mentors Chapter. You don't even need to look them up. Just ask "What does 'Mentors' mean?" and you'll get your answer for what they're about.).

[Kris Strife]

Check the Imperius Reavers (their color scheme is a pain in the ass though). Veterans of the Tyrannic wars and with a Genestealer cult in their home planet (although that's been erradicated). While I wouldn't use them outright (again that color scheme) they are there.

I was expecting something a bit more unusual than a 'half one color, half another' unless red/black is a difficult color scheme to do that with. I thought you were discussing a chapter with a checkerboard pattern or something like the Celebrants

Spoiler

Show

[thethird]

As for them being Word Bearers; that could be one of the twists that could happen. Everyone assumes they're Thousand Sons because they're all Psykers rather than Sorcerers, and because they wear the same colours on their armour as pre-Heresy Thousand Sons. If that turns out to be a double-bluff and they're really from another Legion... Could be interesting, but might annoy some of the pro-Thousand Sons' fanbase who want 'their Guys' to still be around.

They share the colour scheme with post istvaan word bearers, and for what is worth they are from sector Aurelia and Cyrene is one of their main recruiting worlds. While it is possible to forget why Aurelia or Cyrene are significant names in chapter history it is pretty difficult to forget those names. If memory serves that was the main argument to consider Word Bearers loyalist, and hey I am sure Word Bearers also had Psykers.

I was expecting something a bit more unusual than a 'half one color, half another' unless red/black is a difficult color scheme to do that with. I thought you were discussing a chapter with a checkerboard pattern or something like the Celebrants

Spoiler

Show

I am a bad painter. I haven't really tried to paint the Reavers, it looks scary to me though, with the whole line down the middle and how I would normally paint red over white and black over black so I don't know how I would prime that. As for the Celebrants... that seems time consuming, I would probably paint each armor piece in a different shade but I don't need to make a vertical line across the mini's chest (which is the scary part to me). Totally agreed on the checkerboard, I really like the Lamenters from a fluff perspective but I don't even dare to try to paint one.

For what is worth I really like deathwatch as a way to try different things with colors, while maintaining cohesion in black and silver (with looks great) and letting you do some conversions and unusual models. And I don't think i could do a checkerboard shoulderpad even then.

[Wraith]

They share the colour scheme with post istvaan word bearers, and for what is worth they are from sector Aurelia and Cyrene is one of their main recruiting worlds. While it is possible to forget why Aurelia or Cyrene are significant names in chapter history it is pretty difficult to forget those names. If memory serves that was the main argument to consider Word Bearers loyalist, and hey I am sure Word Bearers also had Psykers.

I can't say that you're definitely wrong, because that's the whole point of there being a mystery. There is, however, a much longer list of reasons as to why they're probably Thousand Sons, starting with them having red armour as opposed to scarlet (as did Word Bearers), that their Chapter logo is reminiscent of the TS Corvidae cult, that their motto of "Knowledge is Power" is a quote from a famous Thousand Son called Revuel Arvida, and that Ahriman seems to recognise them and know much more about them and their origins than he otherwise should.

Bunch of stuff on Lexicanum. I'm sure it could be swerved to be a bluff if someone wanted it to, but the hints suggest that if their founding is ever fully revealed (which it may never be) then *for now* they're probably Thousand Sons.

[Cheesegear]

There is, however, a much longer list of reasons as to why they're probably Thousand Sons, starting with them having red armour as opposed to scarlet...

Starting with the fact that Blood Ravens have the same colours as Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons. Revuel is explicitly a Loyalist, and refuses to change the colours on his armour. Even when the White Scars offer to take him into their Legion for reals. Surely anyone aligned with Arvida would share his colours...
(The Path of Heaven is an excellent read, and one of the few Heresy novels - out of the 54, **** - that I might actually recommend...At least with Discworld's 41, I can actually recommend the majority of them...But that's 'cause Discworld was written by one man with a cohesive vision. )

The fact that Revuel Arvida's entire storyline is an allusion to the creation of Blood Ravens (however, as we've established in this thread, no-one here reads the novels). Instead, Arvida goes on to become Janus, original Grand Master of the Grey Knights through some storyline nonsense where Dawn of War III tanked so bad, and Relic went out of business and so it feels like the storyline to the development on Blood Ravens was literally taken into a basement and shot in the head by Malcador.

I'm sure it could be swerved to be a bluff if someone wanted it to, but the hints suggest that if their founding is ever fully revealed (which it may never be) then *for now* they're probably Thousand Sons.

It's almost definitely Thousand Sons. However, at this stage, Blood Ravens are effectively dead canon, and I don't expect anything to actually be written regarding them ever again.

[thethird]

For what is worth I am personally for Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons myself. I was just mentioning the other theory.

Arvida goes on to become Janus, original Grand Master of the Grey Knights through some storyline nonsense where Dawn of War III tanked so bad, and Relic went out of business and so it feels like the storyline to the development on Blood Ravens was literally taken into a basement and shot in the head by Malcador.

It's almost definitely Thousand Sons. However, at this stage, Blood Ravens are effectively dead canon, and I don't expect anything to actually be written regarding them ever again.

That's what I remember there being a perfect chance to go with hey, loyalist Thousand Sons, but nope, Grey Knights. Was just wondering if there had been any development.

At least they aren't the Storm Wardens...

[Cheesegear]

That's what I remember there being a perfect chance to go with hey, loyalist Thousand Sons, but nope, Grey Knights. Was just wondering if there had been any development.

Had Dawn of War III been successful, it probably would have been Blood Ravens.
Since DoW3 sucked, GW will sweep something that they potentially don't own under the rug.

At least they aren't the Storm Wardens...

Again, it's easier to just sweep something that GW potentially doesn't own, under the rug.

[LansXero]

it looks scary to me though, with the whole line down the middle and how I would normally paint red over white and black over black so I don't know how I would prime that.

Masking. If anything, its better that it is one straight line, as tape can do that no problem.

[Wraith]

It's almost definitely Thousand Sons. However, at this stage, Blood Ravens are effectively dead canon, and I don't expect anything to actually be written regarding them ever again.

And yet Gabriel Angelos made it into the 9e Imperial Armour Compendium, so he avoided being Legacy'd by Forgeworld last year, AND Blood Ravens got White Dwarf rules the year before right in the middle of 8e - 2 years after DoW3 came out.

GW might not know what they're going to do with them, but it feels like they might do SOMETHING at SOME POINT. MAYBE.

[LansXero]

Those rules were bland, uninspired trash. As for Angelos, well, guess they still have some units around to sell or they're waiting for the mold to break.

[LeSwordfish]

Seems unlikely they're going to just vanish - they've got a lot of fans and got updated rules only a couple of years ago.

[Lord Torath]

I was expecting something a bit more unusual than a 'half one color, half another' unless red/black is a difficult color scheme to do that with. I thought you were discussing a chapter with a checkerboard pattern or something like the Celebrants

Spoiler

Show

Here's chaplain I painted (free hand) half-and-half to try to decide which version (light or dark) I liked best:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/warham...se/2057775273/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/warham...se/2057775285/

[Fyraltari]

It's almost definitely Thousand Sons.

Shouldn't they be plagued by rampant mutations/have Rubric Marines, then? I mean all the evidence points towards them, but I don't think that has ever been explained away.

[hamishspence]

1. Cawl's Awakened, were essentially fresh out of the womb. They couldn't be corrupted by Chaos because they had no concept of what Chaos was.

Aren't some of them characterised as actually having fought in the Scouring?

[Wraith]

Shouldn't they be plagued by rampant mutations/have Rubric Marines, then? I mean all the evidence points towards them, but I don't think that has ever been explained away.

I think the reason is supposed to be that the Blood Ravens were founded using tithed geneseed which had been sent to Mars, tested, purified and kept on ice as is standard practice for Legions pre-Heresy and Chapters nowadays, rather than having living Loyalist Thousand Sons change their names and pick up a new logo.

It's a bit of a handwave - being kept in a jar in a freezer doesn't really seem like it should be enough to keep Tzeentch's influence away from anything that he has put his mark upon - but that seems to be what GW are going with. The geneseed wasn't *in* a Space Marine at the moment that Prospero was invaded and the Fleshchange was accelerated, and it hasn't yet occurred to Tzeentch to throw the switch for a second time and ruin the Chapter, so they're fine.

That's an open plot-hook, I guess. If the Blood Ravens *are* Thousand Sons successors, then in theory they could be Spawn'd at any moment. Why hasn't it happened yet? ...JUST AS PLANNED.

Aren't some of them characterised as actually having fought in the Scouring?

One of them might have done - Alpha Primaus was the first Primaris Space Marine, though actually a failed attempt to recreate a Primarch. I'm not sure when he was first created as the stories in which he features take place in M42, but since he was the prototype on which other Primaris Marines were based and they were commissioned during the Scouring, it's plausible that he was around in M31 and met Guilliman who subsequently requested more like him.

The Awoken Primaris - those created by Cawl millennia ago and then put into the fridge - might have been human during the Scouring but whether or not they were active Primaris? That gets messy, as it implies that Cawl had unlocked the mysteries of the geneseed and was creating new supersoldiers within a couple of years of the Siege of Terra, which is... unlikely. Then again, the Scouring went on for just over a century so maybe a few of them might have been ready to go by the time of Guilliman's mortal wounding in M31.121?

[LeSwordfish]

I just finished Saturnine, and I think Dorn might be my favourite Primarch now. It's nice to feel like we're actually getting to the bits of the Siege we've heard about.

Although...

Spoiler

Show

So, hold up. Is Leetu (LE-2) one of the missing primarchs?