Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Eldan]

A particular emotion has to be felt so strongly that it births a new kind of warp entity.
Once upon a time, that emotion was Terror. However, given that the setting at the time was trying to be more Imperium vs. Chaos, that was BALEETED, as there are already Tyranids - and possibly Orks - who already have the 'Fight Everyone', schtick already down. Additionally, talking about Terror in the early 2000s wasn't something you really wanted to do, and so Malice/Malal/Malar was dropped as a storyline 20-odd years ago.

Of course there's the idea the if you shank The Emperor from his mortal form, he dusts and becomes the God of Hope, or something. If people believe in Him, strongly enough, then Lorgar is/was right.

However, more recently the Aeldari birthed Ynnead. Or, Yneead will be birthed when the Infinity Circuit is complete and enough (all?) Aeldari Are One? But I'm not clear on Ynnari since I don't really have an interest in Aeldari Factions so I don't bother looking.

One interesthing thing about that is that a few concept drawings of Malal daemons showed them kind a vermin-like. And pretty soon after, the Skaven came out. Who have a fifth chaos god.

As for Ynnead, he was born, but in the most boring way possible. They did nothing with it. For a god of death and vengeance, it's super tame and almost all its servants seem to be perfectly normal eldar. Instead of insane wraith constructs born from the infinity circuits or the trapped souls freed as some kind of spirit host.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

One interesthing thing about that is that a few concept drawings of Malal daemons showed them kind a vermin-like. And pretty soon after, the Skaven came out. Who have a fifth chaos god.

As for Ynnead, he was born, but in the most boring way possible. They did nothing with it. For a god of death and vengeance, it's super tame and almost all its servants seem to be perfectly normal eldar. Instead of insane wraith constructs born from the infinity circuits or the trapped souls freed as some kind of spirit host.

We can't have creative fluff in our 40k, that's AoS business!

[Forum Explorer]

One interesthing thing about that is that a few concept drawings of Malal daemons showed them kind a vermin-like. And pretty soon after, the Skaven came out. Who have a fifth chaos god.

As for Ynnead, he was born, but in the most boring way possible. They did nothing with it. For a god of death and vengeance, it's super tame and almost all its servants seem to be perfectly normal eldar. Instead of insane wraith constructs born from the infinity circuits or the trapped souls freed as some kind of spirit host.

He wasn't born. He was like, halfborn if that makes any sense. Eldrad performed a ritual to try and have Ynnead be born early. The Deathwatch interefered with it and prevented Ynnead from being fully born, but he still connected to a few people, notably Yvraine. Yvraine was told by Ynnead of a way to finish the job, activate 5 Croneswords, ancient relics that are apparently tied to the old Eldar God of Death. They found 4 and discovered that the last is currently within Slaanash's palace. So it's basically out of reach.

Instead they are trying the old fashioned way, get everyone worshipping Ynnead in life and are trying to unify the Eldar at the same time. In the process they found the main shard of Khaine, had the opportunity to empower Khaine to a real threat, but refused it and instead now have someone who can basically transform into an Avatar of Khaine.


Regardless of all that, I do agree that the Ynnarri need some more models. They should be a faction in their own right, not just a hijacking of Craftworlds, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins.

[Gareth3]

How much does the Imperium know about the history of the Necrons? I ask because there was a mention in the Inquisitor game about trying to make a new immortal body for the Emperor. We think of the Necrons when we read that, but do Imperials know that they used to be biological creatures?

[Cheesegear]

I ask because there was a mention in the Inquisitor game about trying to make a new immortal body for the Emperor. We think of the Necrons when we read that...

Unless the game explicitly mentions Necrons, no we don't.

We think of Aeldari, 'cause the Inquisition and/or AdMech reached out to them - specifically Drukharii - in the Webway with:
a) How do you do Spirit Stone...Stuff. Can you fix the Golden Throne, please? If not,
b) Can you figure out how to transfer the Emperor's consciousness to a Construct? If not,
c) Can you clone the Emperor?
Any of those would be real handy. Plzkthx.

Basically, Yvraine made Guilliman Walk.
They have the Imperium's attention.
Can you do it with the Emperor?

I'm still confused as to why with the release of the Dark Angels' book, there wasn't a storyline where Guilliman makes Yvraine do the thing on Lion, as well, and thus, we get Lion on the board, too.
Magnus and Morty, Guilliman and Lion.

[hamishspence]

I'm still confused as to why with the release of the Dark Angels' book, there wasn't a storyline where Guilliman makes Yvraine do the thing on Lion, as well, and thus, we get Lion on the board, too.

Only the Emperor, the Watchers in the Dark, and maybe Luther know that The Lion is hidden away in The Rock. Even the Dark Angels have no idea what happened to his body.

[LeSwordfish]

Only the Emperor, the Watchers in the Dark, and maybe Luther know that The Lion is hidden away in The Rock. Even the Dark Angels have no idea what happened to his body.

Typical, eh, you search for ages for something and it's right under your nose the whole time.

[Forum Explorer]

Unless the game explicitly mentions Necrons, no we don't.

We think of Aeldari, 'cause the Inquisition and/or AdMech reached out to them - specifically Drukharii - in the Webway with:
a) How do you do Spirit Stone...Stuff. Can you fix the Golden Throne, please? If not,
b) Can you figure out how to transfer the Emperor's consciousness to a Construct? If not,
c) Can you clone the Emperor?
Any of those would be real handy. Plzkthx.

Basically, Yvraine made Guilliman Walk.
They have the Imperium's attention.
Can you do it with the Emperor?

I'm still confused as to why with the release of the Dark Angels' book, there wasn't a storyline where Guilliman makes Yvraine do the thing on Lion, as well, and thus, we get Lion on the board, too.
Magnus and Morty, Guilliman and Lion.

From what I heard the Lion is already healed, they just need to remove the stasis. Which they haven't done for some reason.

[hamishspence]

Typical, eh, you search for ages for something and it's right under your nose the whole time.

Interestingly, none of the early DA codices state this outright - only having Luther make the claim that the Watchers took his body away and that eventually he will return to forgive Luther.

The first book that treats his presence on the Rock as fact, is not a codex but a novel - the 1999 novel Eye of Terror:

p286

There are secrets known not even to the Inner Circle of the Fallen Angels, and one final secret is known only to the God-Emperor himself. Deep, deep within the Rock, at the centre of what was once the planet Caliban, lies a sealed, unreachable chamber. Here lies sleeping the Chapter Primarch, carried away by the Watchers in the Dark on that terrible day when the Dark Angels Chapter tore itself apart.

Odd that it said "Inner Circle of the Fallen Angels" - but the basic point is there - Jonson is on the Rock, in that chamber, and only the Emperor knows this. It implies even the Watchers don't know - perhaps the ones who put him there are dead of old age and didn't pass on the secret.

[noob]

From what I heard the Lion is already healed, they just need to remove the stasis. Which they haven't done for some reason.

They have not done it yet because they do not think they would get enough sales from the new model to compensate the cost of designing and producing it?

[Platinius]

Here a training video for Imperial Guard Officers.^^

[Wraith]

Basically, Yvraine made Guilliman Walk.
They have the Imperium's attention.
Can you do it with the Emperor?

The problem is that those in the Imperium who are inclined to ask for xenos help in fixing the Emperor, also don't know enough about xenos to make a sensible request. This is more or less the plot of The Vaults of Terra: The Carrion Throne by Chris Wraight.

Spoiler: The big twist at the end of The Carrion Throne

Show

A combined group of Mechanicus and High Lords decide to smuggle an Aeldari technomage in order to have a look at the ailing Golden Throne and see if they can get it fixed, but because they're part of the Imperium and thus incapable of not doing things in the absolute worst way possible they try to bring in a Drukharii Haemonculi. It inevitably gets loose, starts up a Cult of mutants, and then gets within sight of the Golden Throne before it's finally brought down by Inquisitor Crowl.

So there are people in the Imperium who think that the Aeldari can fix the Emperor, or at least the Throne; these people are probably correct, but unfortunately they are also morons who get purged by the Custodes.

Interestingly, none of the DA codices state this outright - only having Luther make the claim that the Watchers took his body away and that eventually he will return to forgive Luther.

That he is definitely in the Rock sleeping is fact, I think - whether or not he will return specifically to forgive Luther is the part that's up for debate. I distinctly recall the 7th ed. Codex saying that "no one, not even Luthor knew the real truth [at the heart of the Rock]" and I think that's been pretty consistent for the last few editions.

[hamishspence]

Good point, I found that on page 32 on the 7e codex. Amended my statement.

And something similar in the 6e codex (page 26) and the 8e one (p144)

6e:
"Buried yet deeper within the Rock, hidden in its innermost chamber, is the final, greatest secret of the Dark Angels. Only one person in the galaxy knows the full truth - the Emperor. Even in his living entombment upon the Golden Throne, even though the sunken orbits of his skull no longer have eyes, the Emperor still sees much. Hidden inside a secluded chamber at the heart of what was once the planet of Caliban, unreachable by all save the cryptic Watchers in the Dark, the mighty Primarch Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping. There he slumbers, his wounds long-healed, waiting for that time when he will be needed again, when the clarion call of battle sounds for the last time, summoning him once again to defend the Imperium of Man against its enemies."

7e:
"The highest ranking Dark Angels believe that they know all of the Rock's many secrets, yet even they remain ignorant of their stronghold's greatest revelation. Hidden inside a secluded chamber, unreachable by all save the small, robed figures of the Watchers in the Dark, the mighty Primarch Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping. His wounds long healed, he waits for that time when he will be needed once again. When the clarion call of battle sounds for the last time, Jonson will be summoned forth from his millennial rest to defend the Imperium of Mankind from its enemies. Then shall all traitors quake in fear, for the Lion's vengeance will be terrible indeed."

8e:
"One more truth remains concealed, however. Buried deep inside the last bedrock of old Caliban, is the greatest of all the Dark Angels' secrets. Hidden in the innermost chamber that is unreachable by all save the cryptic Watchers in the Dark, Lion El'Jonson slumbers. His wounds long-healed, he awaits a time when he is most needed, when the clarion call of battle summons him to once more lead his sons to defend the Imperium of Mankind."


Nothing in the 3e codex, the 4e codex or in WD254's IA: Dark Angels, though.

So, we know what source introduced it from "novels" to "codex" - the 6e codex.

[Lord Torath]

Originally, no one knew about Lion's sleeping place except the Emperor:

THE FINAL SECRET

The only people who know about the disastrous events that took place on Caliban all those millennia ago are the Emperor and the Dark Angels themselves. The Dark Angels will never reveal the truth to anyone outside the Chapter for they could not bear others to know the truth of their terrible shame. And all the while, deep within his cell, Luther, the betrayer, speaks of what is to come. Yet even the highest ranking Dark Angels do not know everything, although they may think that they do.

Buried even deeper within the Rock, is the final, greatest secret of the Chapter. Only one person in the entire universe knows the truth - the Emperor himself. For hidden inside a secluded, unreachable chamber at the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El' Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against its enemies.

I guess the Watchers in the Dark don't count as people.

[hamishspence]

"Waiting with the Watchers in the dark" does suggest that the Watchers know. That said, it's nice to see that the concept goes right back to 2e. Not sure why they never included anything about it in 3e or 4e.

[Cheesegear]

So there are people in the Imperium who think that the Aeldari can fix the Emperor, or at least the Throne...

Yvraine makes Guilliman walk.
Yvraine un-Dusts Rubric Marines.
...C- C-...Can you do that to Him? *Points at The Emperor*

but unfortunately they are also morons who get purged by the Custodes.

Cypher thought he could fix The Emperor, and then Gulliman clotheslined him.
The other problem, is that if you get Yvraine within handwaving distance of The Emperor...Would she kill Him? Hmm...Better not risk it.

Which is how I basically imagine the Primarchs, standing around the Throne:

Vulkan: He's, well...He's Dad! Get him out of the Throne and he'll stand up good as new! Like me!

Leman Russ: I suppose we could kill him. He'll reincarnate somewhere.
Jaghatai: Then we do a Crusade again to find The Child?

Guilliman: Psst...Hey Cawl... Instead of doing anything about the Throne, I need you to work on making an army personally loyal to me. The longer Dad's out, the longer I'm in charge. Got it?
Cawl: You're giving me unlimited budget and no oversight? ...And you're just going to trust me? ...Okay!

Corax: ...Hear me out...What if...What if we take Him out of the Throne, and He just...Dies?
*The Primarchs stare at walls...*
Dorn: ...Best not risk it. Let's do nothing and hope it works itself out.

Dad: [Screams internally]

[noob]

Yvraine makes Guilliman walk.
Yvraine un-Dusts Rubric Marines.
...C- C-...Can you do that to Him? *Points at The Emperor*



Cypher thought he could fix The Emperor, and then Gulliman clotheslined him.
The other problem, is that if you get Yvraine within handwaving distance of The Emperor...Would she kill Him? Hmm...Better not risk it.

Which is how I basically imagine the Primarchs, standing around the Throne:

Vulkan: He's, well...He's Dad! Get him out of the Throne and he'll stand up good as new! Like me!

Leman Russ: I suppose we could kill him. He'll reincarnate somewhere.
Jaghatai: Then we do a Crusade again to find The Child?

Guilliman: Psst...Hey Cawl... Instead of doing anything about the Throne, I need you to work on making an army personally loyal to me. The longer Dad's out, the longer I'm in charge. Got it?
Cawl: You're giving me unlimited budget and no oversight? ...And you're just going to trust me? ...Okay!

Corax: ...Hear me out...What if...What if we take Him out of the Throne, and He just...Dies?
*The Primarchs stare at walls...*
Dorn: ...Best not risk it. Let's do nothing and hope it works itself out.

Dad: [Screams internally]

Poor emperor forever constrained to rotting on a throne and seeing a thousand people being sacrificed to him each day.
(Also warpy stuff would be too risked to heal the emperor because the chaos gods would try to corrupt it)

[Forum Explorer]

Yvraine makes Guilliman walk.
Yvraine un-Dusts Rubric Marines.
...C- C-...Can you do that to Him? *Points at The Emperor*



Cypher thought he could fix The Emperor, and then Gulliman clotheslined him.
The other problem, is that if you get Yvraine within handwaving distance of The Emperor...Would she kill Him? Hmm...Better not risk it.

Which is how I basically imagine the Primarchs, standing around the Throne:

Vulkan: He's, well...He's Dad! Get him out of the Throne and he'll stand up good as new! Like me!

Leman Russ: I suppose we could kill him. He'll reincarnate somewhere.
Jaghatai: Then we do a Crusade again to find The Child?

Guilliman: Psst...Hey Cawl... Instead of doing anything about the Throne, I need you to work on making an army personally loyal to me. The longer Dad's out, the longer I'm in charge. Got it?
Cawl: You're giving me unlimited budget and no oversight? ...And you're just going to trust me? ...Okay!

Corax: ...Hear me out...What if...What if we take Him out of the Throne, and He just...Dies?
*The Primarchs stare at walls...*
Dorn: ...Best not risk it. Let's do nothing and hope it works itself out.

Dad: [Screams internally]

Yvraine would totally kill the Emperor or refuse to help, whichever would keep him in an ineffective state. The Emperor was the greatest threat to the existence of all the Xenos in the galaxy and I can't see a scenario where it would be better to let him out than to just risk handling whatever current problem they face on their own.

[LansXero]

Yvraine would totally kill the Emperor or refuse to help, whichever would keep him in an ineffective state. The Emperor was the greatest threat to the existence of all the Xenos in the galaxy and I can't see a scenario where it would be better to let him out than to just risk handling whatever current problem they face on their own.

They can't handle it. They never will. Sooner or later she will eat them all, unless they find a permanent solution, and if she doesn't then the awakening dynasties will. Getting the Emperor up and saccing him on the Silent King so he can satiate his xenophobia on tomb worlds is pretty much the best scenario for Eldars atm.

[Forum Explorer]

They can't handle it. They never will. Sooner or later she will eat them all, unless they find a permanent solution, and if she doesn't then the awakening dynasties will. Getting the Emperor up and saccing him on the Silent King so he can satiate his xenophobia on tomb worlds is pretty much the best scenario for Eldars atm.

No man, best scenario is getting Guilliman or another Primarch to get the Imperium unified to do that for them. They can be bargained with and are much less likely to become a xenocidal threat in their own right.


On a slightly different note, what happens if a Blank ends up in Nurgle's Garden or Tzeentch's Maze? Or any of the other Chaos Realms? Do the physical structures fall apart or something?

[Wraith]

Yvraine makes Guilliman walk.
Yvraine un-Dusts Rubric Marines.
...C- C-...Can you do that to Him? *Points at The Emperor*

The Custodes don't even care. Nobody gets near the Throne in any way, shape or form that even remotely resembles 'a threat'. Even they don't know what's going on until the closing act of The Carrion Throne, and then they mostly turn up as the 'Scorched Earth' policy. The idea of Xenos in the throne room? Very funny, tell us another one. Even with the (spoilered) event at the end, there's still 100 more Custodes stood mere feet away from the Throne, and they're still so far away from Crowl that he can't even see them when the threat is neutralised.

They can't handle it. They never will. Sooner or later she will eat them all, unless they find a permanent solution, and if she doesn't then the awakening dynasties will. Getting the Emperor up and saccing him on the Silent King so he can satiate his xenophobia on tomb worlds is pretty much the best scenario for Eldars atm.

Waking up the Emperor is a VERY short-term solution, at best. Let's say he gets up and, no matter how unlikely it sounds, he kicks Chaos' butt out of the galaxy - who do you think he's going to come after next, baring in mind that he has already once stated that the Eldar civilisation is dead and that he intends to assimilate the webway into Imperial control? After all, as much as it sucks that the Infinity Gate is forever closed, the Imperium now knows that there are more gates nearby - Vulkan fell into one, and Inquisitor Draco has another on his starship ready to go!

Keeping the Emperor down and having a comparatively weak Primarch at the helm is a far better solution - especially when that Primarch owes you a bunch of favours.

On a slightly different note, what happens if a Blank ends up in Nurgle's Garden or Tzeentch's Maze? Or any of the other Chaos Realms? Do the physical structures fall apart or something?

That kinda depends on what or where these places are.

Are they pure warpstuff, top to bottom? if so, the Blank dies very quickly - they might be immune to psychic powers and the effects of the warp, but they also need to breath and preferably not explosively decompress by stepping into empty space where a mindscape ought to be.

Are they walking on a demon world which is controlled by the will of one of the Gods - weird, twisted and warping, but there's actually dirt and soil there beneath it all? In which case they project their null 'bubble' around them and make a little space that, while they are standing on it, can't be manipulated psychically. Or possibly - if they're less than an Omega-Null level Blank - it can only be manipulated very crudely and slowly, because Blankness can be overcome by a sufficiently powerful Psyker/Entity with time and persistence.

Or the entity in question controls the world around the bubble and makes it open up into a 10-mile-deep pit or a lake of acid, so that the whole thing drops into it and the Blank dies from that.

Or a Chaos Space Marine turns up and just boltguns their head off, because why not?

Essentially, if you're walking through the Garden/Labyrinth/Whatever then you're probably dead as soon as Nurgle/Tzeentch/Whoever decides that they're done playing with you - either that or you are one of their favoured servants already. Or you're Grand-Master Draigo, who makes his own arrangements.

[Gareth3]

Thinking about things to do with the Emperor, the most prominent one has been that he dies and his soul becomes a warp entity. There's also the option of putting him in a new body, the equivalent of a Wraithlord or a clone or whatever. I've only seen that option in the Inquisitor game. The funny thing is that if you do the Necron thing to him, you get both. An immortal metal body with a perfect emulation of the emperor's mind, and the soul released as if he had died. Obviously in this setting the soul Emperor and the mind Emperor immediately start trying to kill each other.

[noob]

Thinking about things to do with the Emperor, the most prominent one has been that he dies and his soul becomes a warp entity. There's also the option of putting him in a new body, the equivalent of a Wraithlord or a clone or whatever. I've only seen that option in the Inquisitor game. The funny thing is that if you do the Necron thing to him, you get both. An immortal metal body with a perfect emulation of the emperor's mind, and the soul released as if he had died. Obviously in this setting the soul Emperor and the mind Emperor immediately start trying to kill each other.

It is in which inquisitor game?
Also if the emperor became a warp entity it would probably be even more devastating to the setting than if the emperor walked the world again.(the power of the thousand initial souls(which was crazy on its own) + the power of all the sacrifices to the emperor(all psychers) + the power of all the people who died in the service of the emperor(really tons of them))
Maybe the scariness of warp emperor could be enough justification even for xenos to try to at least repair the golden torturing life support device.

[Thragka]

I think that's the old Specialist-Games-era Inquisitor tabletop RPG rulebook, which was a forerunner to Dark Heresy.

[Cheesegear]

I think that's the old Specialist-Games-era Inquisitor tabletop RPG rulebook, which was a forerunner to Dark Heresy.

The more obvious game is Inquisitor (2018), a mediocre Diablo-clone.

[Thragka]

The more obvious game is Inquisitor (2018), a mediocre Diablo-clone.

Derp, forgot about that even though I've played it! (Actually I've found it can be quite mindlessly relaxing after a long day to run around a copy-paste environment exploding cultists and plaguebearers by mashing the psychic attack button.)

Edit: I thought of the Inquisitor RPG because the piece of fiction that opens the rulebook relays a possible founding of the Inquisition, as various go-getters try to figure out the best way to improve over the Golden Throne as a stop-gap life support system for the Emperor, and quickly start polarising and splitting into factions about what their goals and methods will be.

[hamishspence]

Edit: I thought of the Inquisitor RPG because the piece of fiction that opens the rulebook relays a possible founding of the Inquisition, as various go-getters try to figure out the best way to improve over the Golden Throne as a stop-gap life support system for the Emperor, and quickly start polarising and splitting into factions about what their goals and methods will be.

I'm wondering how that scene goes with The Beast Arises series, Specifically, which of those Inquisitors, if any, is:

Spoiler

Show

Sindermann, head of the Ordo Malleus. After all, he was around in the Heresy, so it seems to me like the intent is that he eventually became one of the founding Inquisitors.

[Gareth3]

I thought of the Inquisitor RPG because the piece of fiction that opens the rulebook relays a possible founding of the Inquisition, as various go-getters try to figure out the best way to improve over the Golden Throne as a stop-gap life support system for the Emperor, and quickly start polarising and splitting into factions about what their goals and methods will be.

Yes, that's where I came across the Emperor's new body idea.

[Cheesegear]

...so it seems to me like the intent is that he eventually became one of the founding Inquisitors.

Arvida/Janus
Severian
Tylos Rubio
The Nemean
A Raven Guard
Fyodor Stormgren
Fel Zharost

It's unclear whether Garviel Loken counts as the eighth 'Founder', since he explicitly refused.

[LansXero]

Arvida/Janus
Severian
Tylos Rubio
The Nemean
A Raven Guard
Fyodor Stormgren
Fel Zharost

It's unclear whether Garviel Loken counts as the eighth 'Founder', since he explicitly refused.

Wasn't he just told to restore the Remembracers but as ... Interrogators now? Maybe there is a link there.