Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Wraith]

Wasn't he just told to restore the Remembracers but as ... Interrogators now? Maybe there is a link there.

Cheesegear has mixed up his Ordos. The seven listed above - as well as others including Remembrancers Euphrati Keeler, Kyril Sinderman, Lemual Garmon and Sister of Silence Amendera Kendel - were all recruited by Malcador to be his 'new' Agents, however they were split up and the Space Marines were supposed to go on to become the eight Grand Masters of the Grey Knights.

It is yet possible that some of them - as well as non-Pskyers like Loken - instead became Inquisitors, but so far (and especially according to The Buried Dagger which names most of the Grey Knights) all signs are suggesting that only the humans became the first Inquisitors.

[hamishspence]

When I look up the scene from Inquisitor - two are named - "Moriana" and "Promeus" (Moriana is a young-woman with white hair, Promeus is deep voiced and speaks slowly - both of them would like to get the Emperor off the Throne) - and two are not - one with an "aged", "cracked" voice, who wants to keep the Emperor on the Throne, and his compatriot, who is "hawk-nosed" and "sharp-nosed".

[Cheesegear]

however they were split up and the Space Marines were supposed to go on to become the eight Grand Masters of the Grey Knights.

Pre-Siege, Malcador tells 8 of the Knights-Errant to bail on the fight, 'cause they'll be needed afterwards. Of the 8 Chosen, only Loken told Malcador 'No.' Loken was not going to sit out of the Siege of Terra, and he was going with Garro.

So there's an unknown 8th Master of the Grey Knights, who could theoretically be anyone, since Loken's slot is probably open. I don't see him surviving the Siege.

It is yet possible that some of them - as well as non-Pskyers like Loken - instead became Inquisitors...

Loken is a latent Psyker. Hinted way back when, after he survived Istvaan III and became Cerberus, and basically confirmed during the Siege of Terra.
My guess is that Horus vs. Emperor will be retconned one, final time, and Loken will stand between The Emperor and Horus, at the End Time.

[LeSwordfish]

My guess is that Horus vs. Emperor will be retconned one, final time, and Loken will stand between The Emperor and Horus, at the End Time.

They've already-

Spoiler: Saturnine Spoilers

Show

confirmed that Ollianus Pius's story is not as it was previously believed - there's definitely scope for someone to take his place....I was there, when Horus killed the Emperor.

What are some good Imperial Fist Horus Heresy books? In case I was, say, staring down the possibility of picking up a super expensive, super hard to paint army.

[Wraith]

Pre-Siege, Malcador tells 8 of the Knights-Errant to bail on the fight, 'cause they'll be needed afterwards. Of the 8 Chosen, only Loken told Malcador 'No.' Loken was not going to sit out of the Siege of Terra, and he was going with Garro.

So not Inquisitors then, which was the original question.

Of the 8 Grand Masters, so far 5 of them are confirmed and of the other 3 certain details have been confirmed that rules out Loken:

Ogen (Probably Raven Guard, likely Balsar Kurthuri or Antaka Cyvaan)
Yotun (Definitely a Space Wolf, possibly Fyodor Stromgren)
Khyros (Probably a Night Lord, and probably their Chief-Librarian Fel Zharost - though personally I still hold out hope that Khyros is actually Jago Sevatarion because I want there to be more Sevatar after the Heresy)

Loken is a latent Psyker. Hinted way back when, after he survived Istvaan III and became Cerberus, and basically confirmed during the Siege of Terra.

Fair enough. I haven't read Siege of Terra yet, and until then like you said it was only hinted with other possibilities - such as being visited by the Watchers - still on the table.

My guess is that Horus vs. Emperor will be retconned one, final time, and Loken will stand between The Emperor and Horus, at the End Time.

That would be a great book-end to the series. Loken being both the first and last Lunar Wolf loyalist to play a big role is a nice image.

[Cheesegear]

That would be a great book-end to the series. Loken being both the first and last Lunar Wolf loyalist to play a big role is a nice image.

I really appreciate that when the Siege of Terra happens, Loken puts his colours back on. Going from a Knight-Errant, back to a Luna Wolf, to fight the Sons of Horus.

[Wraith]

What are some good Imperial Fist Horus Heresy books? In case I was, say, staring down the possibility of picking up a super expensive, super hard to paint army.

You're better off looking at the Siege of Terra books. In the Horus Heresy, the Imperial Fists are still on Terra and aren't involved in much that happens up to The Solar War, when the Sol system is finally invaded. That and The First Wall are the first really IF-centric stories, so you might want to start there.

When they do appear in the Horus Heresy, it's usually in the short stories and the audio dramas, and in those the Imperial Fists tend to be extras or, in some cases, as antagonists such as in The Outcast Dead.
They appear in several of the Nathaniel Garro stories when he ends up stuck between Malcador's orders and Dorn's defiance. Especially in Burden of Duty, wherein Garro sneaks aboard the Phalanx and tries to recruit an IF codicier to the Knight-Errant, only to be met by Dorn telling him on no uncertain terms will he tolerate such meddling with his Legion.

The next best source is probably anything to do with Sigismund, the IF First Captain. There's several audio dramas about his exploits - The Crimson Fist and Templar - and he's pretty good to read about because he is at times both an exemplary Imperial Fist and an awful one so you get to see what he does that's good, and how his brothers react to him doing things they dislike.

Or better yet, read the War of the Beast series - it takes place shortly after the Heresy, but features lots of Imperial Fists and their descendants working together - The Last Wall in particular feeling somewhat like the Legion they used to be for.... spoilered reasons.

[Cheesegear]

What are some good Imperial Fist Horus Heresy books? In case I was, say, staring down the possibility of picking up a super expensive, super hard to paint army.

Unfortunately, the Imperial Fists - as a Legion - sit out the vast majority of the Heresy. Barely ever showing up. Being as they're sitting on Terra, fortifying it, basically doing nothing from Istvaan III all the way to the Siege. Some, occaisionally feature as background characters in other peoples' stories. Alexis Polux - the Crimson Fist - shows up inside Unremembered Empire, and plays a major role in Pharos.
Sigismund shows up regularly in other peoples' stories - specifically Garro's. And of course he's in Mechanicum.

But ultimately anything that the Imperial Fists do throughout the Heresy, is via character-driven short stories. Again, because Imperial Fists don't do anything during the Heresy.

The first major role the Imperial Fists have in the entire Heresy, is Praetorian of Dorn - Book 39... There aren't any others.

Siege of Terra happens:
Dorn is a muppet.
Sigismund is heavily Worf'd. These guys are a big deal you guys, look, they beat up Sigismund! ...Sigismund proceeds to get beaten on three or four more times by different adversaries. Sigismund was even retconned to lose the duel vs. Kharn. But it's okay, 'cause that duel was changed to be Eidolon instead. No, idiots. The point of the duel on Terra was that Sigismund could beat Marked Kharn. Kharn! Not some loser nobody cares about. Sigismund is supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe as an old man with Chosen!Abaddon and not lose the fight instantly.*
Templar; "Hey Kharn, maybe if you fought with more discipline..."
Siege; Kharn goes full bad-anime. "I know how to beat Sigismund, even less discipline!"
...Guess we're gonna ignore what John French wrote, I guess.

...We quickly realise that during the Siege the 'Fists can't be written competently 'cause then the story doesn't happen. *headdesk*
So much for that.

*Talon of Horus

[LansXero]

U
Siege of Terra happens:
Dorn is a muppet.

Always was.

Sigismund is heavily Worf'd. These guys are a big deal you guys, look, they beat up Sigismund! ...Sigismund proceeds to get beaten on three or four more times by different adversaries. Sigismund was even retconned to lose the duel vs. Kharn. But it's okay, 'cause that duel was changed to be Eidolon instead. No, idiots. The point of the duel on Terra was that Sigismund could beat Marked Kharn. Kharn! Not some loser nobody cares about. Sigismund is supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe as an old man with Chosen!Abaddon and not lose the fight instantly.*

The bit in Solar War where his friend has to die for him doesn't count, he was like what, 20:1? And he rams fkin Fulgrim too so you cant expect him to win that one.

The part where he is made The Emperor's Champion is yet to come. The real problem is not his actual depiction (scary as **** to face, but so badly outnumbered it barely matters) but the fact that most named characters are either dead or have left.

Siege; Kharn goes full bad-anime. "I know how to beat Sigismund, even less discipline!"
...Guess we're gonna ignore what John French wrote, I guess.

Kharn is extremely well disciplined. The rest of his Legion at this point are animals, up to even running in all fours like gorillas. He remains the sanest even though he is always at the thickest fighting and has the same implants as everybody else. There has been a steady degradation of his sanity of course, but seeing book after book how much worse the rest of the world eaters are, its remarkable.

...We quickly realise that during the Siege the 'Fists can't be written competently 'cause then the story doesn't happen. *headdesk*
So much for that.

Sort of. Their doctrine isn't compelling; the Khan put it best: they shelter behind void shields and meters thick walls while the rest of Terra dies around them. That stoic inaction is good for last stands and heroic defiance but can hardly carry a narrative on its own.

Which isnt to say they haven't had their moments. Dorn bashing Fulgrim at the walls was great, and ofc there is Camba Diaz :'(. But I agree that if anyone has shone during the siege, it's been, oddly, the WS.

Dorn: Khan, let the civilians get ****ed
Khan: Even if the Emperor told me to do so, I wouldnt. Sanguinius, will I die doing this?
Sanguinius: Probably.
Khan: But will I save lives?
Sanguinius: Definitvely.
Khan: Then I ride. See you Dorn, you cant bottle the storm.

[Wraith]

Kharn is extremely well disciplined. The rest of his Legion at this point are animals, up to even running in all fours like gorillas. He remains the sanest even though he is always at the thickest fighting and has the same implants as everybody else. There has been a steady degradation of his sanity of course, but seeing book after book how much worse the rest of the world eaters are, its remarkable.

Two of my favourite depictions of Khârn come when he isn't murdering people, and when he is actively trying to avoid it. Kind of.

In Chosen of Khorne, he does the 'Sherlock-scan' thing of his enemies, imagining the most brutal and blood-soaked way of dispatching them... And then resists it, because it's slower than just stabbing them once in the head, and in a protracted fight he would be wounded and thus slowed down from making his next kill.

In Trials of Azrael, Khârn comes face-to-face to the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels and... has a conversation with him. I mean, it's short and insulting, but Khârn clearly remembers the Dark Angels he has killed in the past - specifically recognising Azrael's helmet - and they duel sarcastically with each other for a minute before they duel martially. Even then, Khârn starts off 'slow' and ramps up the fight over time - he holds himself back because it makes better sport/because he doesn't care enough to just wipe Azrael out in one second flat.

Khârn's brutality is limitless, but he always starts from the beginning and accelerates it according to who he needs to fight rather than living as a frantic and endlessly raving. Given that he hears Khorne's voice directly in his head, he arguably has more willpower and self-discipline than any other Astartes to ignore it.

[Cheesegear]

But I agree that if anyone has shone during the siege, it's been, oddly, the WS.

I think the White Scars have come out the best during the entire 50-book run.
*Checks who wrote the White Scars' storyline*.
Oh, look. One of my favourite current authors at BL. Funny that.

[LansXero]

And its not even the usual fanwank of overpowered bs; Jubal dies but what a show does he put up against Abaddon no less; Yesugei likewise before the siege; the guy that gets stuck in the Eternity Port is just the best, except for Camba Diaz but then Diaz knew it would've been for nothing. And the Khan, even though he almost fkin dies and is in way over his head most of the time, still shines through.

[Mordokai]

So, here's a question that may border on heretical, so please, consider contacting the Inquisitor only after you've answered it

As the story goes, the Emperor held himself back in the fight with Horus because he had trouble fighting his favourite son. However, when Guilliman is resurrected and has his little talk with his "father", we learn that Big E never saw primarchs as sons... that was just a convenient cover story for... morale's sake, I guess? Optics? Doesn't really matter. We learn from Roboute that Emperor always considered primarchs more as tools.

So if we take that story at face value... why did Emperor held himself back? Could it be that Horus actually gave him a run for his money? He was a conduit for Chaos Undivided at that point, after all... that's bound to give even Emperor some problems.

[LansXero]

So, here's a question that may border on heretical, so please, consider contacting the Inquisitor only after you've answered it

As the story goes, the Emperor held himself back in the fight with Horus because he had trouble fighting his favourite son. However, when Guilliman is resurrected and has his little talk with his "father", we learn that Big E never saw primarchs as sons... that was just a convenient cover story for... morale's sake, I guess? Optics? Doesn't really matter. We learn from Roboute that Emperor always considered primarchs more as tools.

So if we take that story at face value... why did Emperor held himself back? Could it be that Horus actually gave him a run for his money? He was a conduit for Chaos Undivided at that point, after all... that's bound to give even Emperor some problems.

Literally nobody knows. They've hyping up Horus to be this mystical 'fight him physically and spiritually' threat but also the power of the four is burning him out. They aren't rushing due to Guilliman et all, if they had thought it was a threat they would've let Perturabo keep stalling them. They're rushing because Horus is about to die.

[Cheesegear]

As the story goes, the Emperor held himself back in the fight with Horus because he had trouble fighting his favourite son. However, when Guilliman is resurrected...

Pfft. It's directly stated in Master of Mankind. No need to wait for G-man to walk again. Malcador says it, straight up.

We learn from Roboute that Emperor always considered primarchs more as tools.

We learn it from The Emperor himself.
We learn it from Dorn, who tried to earn his Father's love, who ultimately had to accept that he would never get it.

So if we take that story at face value... why did Emperor held himself back?

My guess is two-fold:
1. The Emperor's heart grew three sizes that day, or
2. Horus really was his favourite.

[LeSwordfish]

It's also possible that that's not canon any more - what was the source on this? Because I think the relationship between the emperor and the primarchs has been fleshed out and changed significantly by the Horus Heresy books.

[Wraith]

It's one of those plots that is a mix of out-of-universe story telling, and in-universe mythology.

We won't find out for sure until the duel is finally written into a novel, but there are reasons as to why the Emperor would hold back and not kill Horus, that later got romanticised as being 'love for his son'.

Maybe it takes a few minutes to fully and properly unhook himself, psychically, from the Golden Throne - he can't just switch it off, and Loken(?)'s sacrifice literally buys him the 10 seconds he needs to gather the full limit of His power for the killing blow?

Maybe the Emperor still thinks he can rehabilitate Horus, but in a more neutral way - Horus is still the most powerful of the Primarchs and he now knows things about Chaos that no-one else does, so perhaps the Emperor offers him one last chance to surrender and use his knowledge to restart the Great Crusade? They chat for a while, Horus eventually refuses, they fight while the Emperor continues to insist that they can put the Heresy behind them if only Horus surrenders?

Maybe the person who stood between the Emperor and Horus was Sanguinius? Sanguinius is holding Horus down and the only way for the Emperor to kill Horus was to run his sword through the Angel too? Hell, maybe Sanguinius talked it over with Horus and decided that actually, letting Chaos win would be for the best - Horus and he were close confidants before, if anyone could talk Sanguinius around then it might be Horus.
Either way, nobody needs to know that the Emperor was willing to kill Loyalist Primarchs - or that Sanguinius had Fallen - so they instead make the story about how Sanguinius was already dead when they got there and it was compassion for some rando Guardsman that let the Emperor overcome the enemy instead?

Maybe the entire duel is a lie. Maybe Dorn or Valdor walks in on the Emperor and Horus both badly wounded and he can't tell them apart, so he kills them both and concocts a story about the Emperor's great and noble sacrifice rather than let the Imperium know just how similar the Arch-Heretic and the Master of Mankind really were at the end?

[Lord Torath]

It's also possible that that's not canon any more - what was the source on this? Because I think the relationship between the emperor and the primarchs has been fleshed out and changed significantly by the Horus Heresy books.

Oh, definitely.

I know there was a short story in a White Dwarf a couple decades ago that went into pretty decent detail, but I couldn't tell you which one. It definitely said that Horus slew Sanguinius, and the Emperor held himself back, as though he couldn't quite bring himself to believe that his son would really attack him until Horus actually landed a blow, and that's when the Emperor ended the fight.

[Cheesegear]

Maybe the entire duel is a lie. Maybe Dorn or Valdor walks in on the Emperor and Horus [...] just how similar the Arch-Heretic and the Master of Mankind really were at the end?

That's so good!
Dorn and Valdor look aghast as they come into the Bridge, behind the Emperor. The Emperor doesn't see them come in, focused on Horus as He is. He outlines his Evil Plan to Horus, to complete the Great Crusade and then kill off the Primarchs as their use comes to an end (Dorn is horrified), and to ultimately become the Evil Dictator that he's meant to be.

Dorn knows that Jaghatai was right. Some things are more important than the Emperor. The Imperium must stand. But with The Emperor at the head of it, it will never be want he thinks it will become. The Imperium can't achieve its potential whilst the Emperor walks. But, Dorn himself built the Golden Throne, he knows how it works. Dorn could never bring himself to outright kill his Father. But, you don't have to kill your enemy to defeat them.

Valdor knows that The Emperor's greatest enemy is...Himself. Valdor must protect the Emperor...By disabling him.
For once in their entire lives, Dorn and Valdor agree on one thing - albeit for different reasons.
The Emperor Must Fall.

Over time, Dorn tells his surviving brothers what he did:

Leman Russ is the first to leave. Russ didn't go down to the petrol station to get cigarettes. "I'll be back when Dorn's done, and Dad walks again...I just...Can't be here anymore."
Vulkan knows that he's got time. He just...Leaves. He returns during the War of the Beast. But with Koorland/Slaughter in charge of the current Imperium, Vulkan can't forgive Dorn, nor his Sons, and for no reason at all, bails on the Imperium, even though during the War of the Beast, the Imperium could really use a Primarch on their side.
Corax, Dorn's last brother. Even when Needs Must, even with Corax's nihilism...Time does not heal all wounds. The final argument he has with Dorn, turns out, is about what Dorn did to their Father.

Dorn...The Last Primarch...Can't forgive himself. His brothers have abandoned him. His father lies interred by his hand in a golden coffin. No amount of the Pain Glove can absolve him of what he's done. Striking down their father - with Valdor's help, not that that makes it better. But not only did Dorn eventually strike down The Emperor, but the whole thing was pinned on Horus, who knew what the Emperor had been planning all along. Should he tell Sigismund? ...No. Never.

Dorn must take his secret to the grave. No. Not to the grave. He must live with it. The only person that Dorn would ever trust to give him absolution, to give him punishment for what he's done...Is Konrad Curze. Night Haunter. Dorn teleports aboard the aptly named Sword of Sacrilege, where he demands that the Night Lords take him to Night Haunter, personally. Not understanding what's happening, the Night Lords attack Dorn. Dorn makes them understand, by destroying their bridge and decimating their forces. Once the Night Lords remove his sword-hand, they take him to Curze. The only one who can understand what Dorn did. The only one who can punish Dorn, inside the Warp, where time is eternal, and punishment is forever.

[LansXero]

That's so good!

Really? Thats reddit level of whatif random crazy theory.

Dorn and Valdor look aghast as they come into the Bridge, behind the Emperor. The Emperor doesn't see them come in, focused on Horus as He is. He outlines his Evil Plan to Horus, to complete the Great Crusade and then kill off the Primarchs as their use comes to an end (Dorn is horrified), and to ultimately become the Evil Dictator that he's meant to be.

So what? Valdor was there the last time another tool was purged and he doesn't give a crap about Primarchs anyways.

Dorn knows that Jaghatai was right. Some things are more important than the Emperor. The Imperium must stand. But with The Emperor at the head of it, it will never be want he thinks it will become. The Imperium can't achieve its potential whilst the Emperor walks. But, Dorn himself built the Golden Throne, he knows how it works. Dorn could never bring himself to outright kill his Father. But, you don't have to kill your enemy to defeat them.

So, its character assassination then?

The only one who can understand what Dorn did. The only one who can punish Dorn, inside the Warp, where time is eternal, and punishment is forever.

So, one of the few canonically and repeatedly confirmed dead?

[Wraith]

Really? Thats reddit level of whatif random crazy theory.

Well, damn - I'm sorry my single, throw-away, cooked-up-in-all-of-3-seconds suggestion wasn't up to your high standards! Please excuse me while I report to the nearest Inquisitorial fortress for 'rehabilitation'.

So, its character assassination then?

Dorn's sworn duty was to protect Terra and the Imperium. Can't do that with the Emperor dead, can't do it with Horus alive.... More grimdark things have happened for dumber reasons.

So, one of the few canonically and repeatedly confirmed dead?

Believed dead. The vid-pict cuts out just as M'Shen lunges for him, and no Night Lords were there to witness it in person, so... Less grimdark things have happened for cleverer reasons.

Another option is that Dorn just doesn't know (or believe) that Curze is dead. The Lion mentioned something offhand about 'Thramas' and 'getting run through with a sword' but was never really very clear on what happened next, and he's not around to ask about it now, so all he knows is that it's been nearly 1,000 years since the end of the Heresy and the Assassins aren't exactly known for telling people what they've been up to.
Maybe Dorn will find Curze, maybe he won't... Either way; direct punishment or an eternity of wandering alone and broken, which is basically the same thing but quieter.

Alternatively.... have you ever seen Fight Club? Remember how it ends? They absolutely could 'pull an Alpharius' if they wanted to - That Konrad Curze is indeed dead.... But only because, one dark night, the Night Haunter came to punish him for his sins...!

[Cheesegear]

So what? Valdor was there the last time another tool was purged and he doesn't give a crap about Primarchs anyways.

Exactly?

So, its character assassination then?

Dorn's character development began way back in The Dark King, when McNeill decided that Dorn vs. Perturabo was a stupid rivalry that grade-schoolers could come up with. Dorn's true rival, if not Horus, was Curze. You do what you have to do. There is no line except for the one you make in your head. Dorn must fight his brothers, or die. It's a shame that none of the other writers caught onto that storyline, and then had Curze on the opposite side of the Galaxy to Dorn for the whole Heresy.

Dorn's character development continued in Praetorian of Dorn, when Dorn decided not only was fighting, but killing his brothers wasn't even off the table anymore.
Dorn's heart(s) has been broken, and it will never heal.

(Between Curze tearing out one of Dorn's hearts, and Alpharius stabbing him in the other, I'm convinced that Dorn has no hearts left to give.)

Culminating with the death of Sanguinius, the best of them.
Culminating with acknowledging that his Father is not only a Bad Guy, but perhaps the Worst Guy. And that Dorn, trying to earn his Father's love the entire time, not only not getting it, not only accepting that he would never get it. But ultimately deciding that he doesn't even need or want his father's love anymore.

So, one of the few canonically and repeatedly confirmed dead?

Curze is not confirmed dead. He is only confirmed willing - and accepting - to die. Because he knows the Imperium can have it no other way.

[Borgh]

Not to mention the whole "primarchs are three deamons in a meatsuit" idea. Conrad may be dead as a doornail while his essence became a insane avatar of disproportionate retribution.

I don't think Dorn will abandon/betray the emperor, he's too stubbornly loyal for that, and a very simple man at his core.

But simple doesn't mean stupid and he might not like what he sees aboard the Vengeful Spirit. Stuffing Emps into the Golden Throne might be his way of putting his dad in a retirement home without breaking any oaths. Dad will be alive, terra safe, and sure, when the Empire is stable we'll deal with resurrecting him.

[lord_khaine]

No man, best scenario is getting Guilliman or another Primarch to get the Imperium unified to do that for them. They can be bargained with and are much less likely to become a xenocidal threat in their own right.

Oh yeah 100%. For the rest of the galaxy i do think Guilliman is the best choice, especially if you want a slightly less future thats not only war.
He does seem like the most reasonable of the lot.

[Artanis]

Oh yeah 100%. For the rest of the galaxy i do think Guilliman is the best choice, especially if you want a slightly less future thats not only war.
He does seem like the most reasonable of the lot.

Not that that's a particularly high bar in a lot of cases

[Cheesegear]

I don't think Dorn will abandon/betray the emperor, he's too stubbornly loyal for that, and a very simple man at his core.

His stubbornness is repeatedly brought up as a character flaw.
His loyalty is at least once, brought up as a character flaw.

His final arc, should be overcoming that stubbornness, and maybe, probably, coming to the conclusion - like his brothers - that The Imperium, and The Emperor, aren't the same thing. This is exactly what gets Sigismund into trouble, and why the Black Templars still wear underpants on their head, ten thousand-plus years later. Dorn is not Sigismund - or rather, Sigismund is not Dorn. Dorn isn't even like Lorgar. However, neither is Dorn, Curze.

Dorn is what Mortarion could be. But, unlike Mortarion, actually finds himself in a position to act against The Emperor. And, unlike Mortarion and Horus, when it comes time for Dorn to act, he doesn't necessarily need to **** out, so that the story happens, like Mortarion did.

Stuffing Emps into the Golden Throne might be his way of putting his dad in a retirement home without breaking any oaths. Dad will be alive, terra safe, and sure, when the Empire is stable we'll deal with resurrecting him.

Which is exactly how Dorn keeps The Imperium alive, without The Emperor dying. Dorn can save Sanguinius, or The Emperor. He chooses The Emperor. That's already canon.

But ultimately there are several problems post-Heresy that are very hard to reconcile. In order:

- Leman Russ just walks into The Eye. Saying he'll be back. But evidentially not during any of the ten thousand years where The Imperium might have actually needed him.
- Vulkan goes to search for treasure. I mean, if you're not going into The Eye, can you at least tell the Salamanders where you're going? Can they keep tabs at least? Nope. Hell, Vulkan comes back, in canon during the - War of the Beast, and the Salamanders really, really, really would like to talk to him. He says no, and then just leaves again.
- Corax goes emo, and attempts to talk to Dorn. Whatever Corax thought would happen, didn't, and instead, Corax and Dorn have 'an arugment', and the result is that Corax goes into The Eye.
- Dorn effectively commits suicide.

Saying "All the [alive] Primarchs got a case of ennui, and that was enough for them to say that duty and the burdens of command are no longer relevant. So they just...Abandoned The Imperium."
There has to be a reason for that. And in the last 25-odd years since 2nd Ed., there hasn't been. As I mentioned, Vulkan actually does come back. No answers.

[Wraith]

Option 3: After threatening to expose Dorn and their perceived version of his 'betrayal', Russ and Corax never made it out of the room and ended up with a Dorn-sized Power Fist through the back of their rib-cage. Dorn left Sanguinius to die and intentionally left the Emperor maimed and crippled in order to protect the Imperium - turns out he's taken Curze's lesson to heart (lol) and understands that horrible things have to be done for the greater good. Two more dead brothers - and they're not really brothers, are they? They're genetically manufactured tools that barely share a common ancestor - isn't really much of a price to pay, is it?

And at first, Vulkan believes Dorn - Russ and Corax have gone wandering the webway, so Vulkan goes to look for them and find out what made them leave. It takes a century or two, but eventually he starts to suspect that he hasn't been told the truth and that Dorn was hiding something from him. But Dorn is the reigning Lord of the Imperium - to accuse him of lying would cause another civil war, so for now all he can do is keep it to himself and not even tell his sons of his suspicions when they ask.
It's not until the War of the Beast when he gets back and realises that he's too late - Dorn is also 'gone' so all he can do is keep looking for any of his 3 brothers and hope that he can one day find the truth, but until then even voicing his suspicions could bring down all of humanity...

[Gareth3]

Three factions have had a recent fluff update where they make some kind of significant advance: the Imperium has Guiliman waking up and the new Marines, the Eldar have the creation of Ynnead, and Chaos literally split the Imperium in two. There's also the Tau taking over human hive worlds, but I'm not sure how recent that development is. So, could you do the same kind of thing with the Orks or Tyranids? They both have much simpler motivations than the other factions, so what could they do that isn't just a big invasion?

[PhoenixPhyre]

So, could you do the same kind of thing with the Orks or Tyranids? They both have much simpler motivations than the other factions, so what could they do that isn't just a big invasion?

Heretical thought, but maybe some "character" development that makes them something other than 1D, single-minded creatures with only one goal? A faction split? Orks gone over to chaos/Tau? Tyranids who settle down and "farm" an area?

Nah, never happen.

[Saambell]

Tyranids who settle down and "farm" an area?

Nah, never happen.

Funny thing is: they actually have done that. 8th Editions Codex for them has Hive Fleet Tiamat specializing in defense, and instead of spreading and consuming, they took a set of planets in the Tiamat system(hence the name) and have fortified the place. A squad of Eldar rangers wandered in to investigate and found a horrific continent sized pyramid of flesh, pulsing with massive psychic energy. The tyranids of the system seemed to be nurturing and growing it, while also sustaining the planet around it as a stable food source for the strange pyramid. The general theory of it is that they have built their own version of the Astronomicon to help draw more and more tyranids to the galaxy. But they also left it open enough for it to maybe be something else.