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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    That's more or less why they should do Gaunt's Ghosts instead. The good guys are obvious, the human soldiers. And they are fighting against a really obvious evil, with the demon worshipping cultists being their opponents. But at the same time, their own allies are cruel, vicious, and treacherous, being more concerned with glory than protecting the people, and willing to sacrifice millions just so they can claim victory.

    It's 40K, but only lightly touches on the evils of the Imperium. You only see allied Space Marines as these super soldiers coming in to either save the day or as the evil warlord's top body guards, none of the backstory of how they are brainwashed child soldiers abducted from their home planet. You don't really see the facism and evil corruption of the Imperium, unless that's the antagonist to be fought.

    And the cast is both relatively self-contained, unlike the Horus Heresy where you've got dozens of characters who never interact with each other, and very relatable. Their opponents aren't too insane either. It's mostly just Chaos with the occasional Ork interlude. No juggling Necrons, Tyranids, Tau, and more in one setting. Nope, just those corrupted humans who summon daemons who are so obviously evil you don't need to go into depth on why they need to be stopped.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    That's more or less why they should do Gaunt's Ghosts instead.
    Let's play World War I. Relatable, sure. But "It's not 40K." It's classic Dan Abnett, and I just don't think Abnett's stories are 'right' for mainstream audiences, whilst still feeling like 40K.

    To be '40K for normies', I really think the antagonist - or threat - needs to be Necrons, Tyranids or Drukhari. And by Drukhari, I mean 'Elven Space Pirates with Body Horror', with no further depth than that. The problem with Necrons and Tyranids, unfortunately, is that the Terminator franchise already exists, and GW can't 'copy' Starship Troopers.

    If the threat is 'other humans', you may as well just make it any other sci-fi. Which is the problem.

    How much is too much 40K? ...Ian Watson's Space Marine and Inquisition War. Easy. There's a reason GW really wants to forget they exist.
    How much is not enough 40K? ...Anything by Dan Abnett.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    I think it would have to be a war story. Let us see our miniatures in real/animated form.

    A PDF trooper on some planet somewhere. Aliens attack. Orks, or whatever. Sergeant Pov is a good Imperial citizen but doesn't know much about the wider galaxy. He's never even seen a real xenos! Perfect audience surrogate.

    Imperial guard show up. Space Marines show up. Maybe an Inquisitor was already there. Cultists of both the chaotic and denim trousers stealing variety.

    Build it up over episodes. idk.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Let's play World War I. Relatable, sure. But "It's not 40K." It's classic Dan Abnett, and I just don't think Abnett's stories are 'right' for mainstream audiences, whilst still feeling like 40K.

    To be '40K for normies', I really think the antagonist - or threat - needs to be Necrons, Tyranids or Drukhari. And by Drukhari, I mean 'Elven Space Pirates with Body Horror', with no further depth than that. The problem with Necrons and Tyranids, unfortunately, is that the Terminator franchise already exists, and GW can't 'copy' Starship Troopers.

    If the threat is 'other humans', you may as well just make it any other sci-fi. Which is the problem.

    How much is too much 40K? ...Ian Watson's Space Marine and Inquisition War. Easy. There's a reason GW really wants to forget they exist.
    How much is not enough 40K? ...Anything by Dan Abnett.
    40K for normies is a horrific butchering of the setting though. Dan Abnett stuff is all perfectly in setting, just a more of a gentle slide into it. It was the first 40K book I read, and I remember it still. Yeah, it was just futuristic WWI. And then some one became a demon because a bit of statue got stuck in their flesh. And things slowly ramped up from there. We saw STCs, and corrupted Men of Iron, fighting in a Warp Storm alongside Eldar and an Inquisitor, the Hive City Verrunhive with it's population of billions being besieged by an army of crazy war machines like giant crab bots, climbing spiders, and a giant Spike, a pilgrimage to save the relics of a Saint, and somehow harnessing holy power to banish an armada, going into fighting in floating cities and infiltrating a chaos controlled base, where their chants are causing madness and we can see first hand the cruelty they experience under Chaos. Skip straight silver entirely, and go straight into the finale of protecting the Reborn Saint against the bunch of deadly assassins with their own unique abilities. And likely end it there because it's a really good end point.

    Once Dan Abnett gives you a taste of the setting, than you can start getting into the more crazy stuff. But jumping right in will just turn people off, and making it for 'normies' completely butchers the setting.

    Mind you, if you do just go fully animated, you might be able to just jump right in. People are a lot more tolerant of crazy stuff in animated productions. In which case I'd likely either do Guard or Ad Mech, fighting against Necrons or Tyranids.

    Though I would absolutely love to see a Carmen Sandiago style story featuring Inquisitors trying to hunt down Trazan the Infinite.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    40K for normies is a horrific butchering of the setting though.
    It is. Which is why it will never be mainstream.
    Game of Thrones is too violent. The Witcher is too confusing. The Mandalorian is just right.

    That's what you're looking for.

    Dan Abnett stuff is all perfectly in setting, just a more of a gentle slide into it. It was the first 40K book I read, and I remember it still.
    First 40K book I ever read was Draco (The Inquisition War) - and I went 'backwards' and read Space Marine very soon after - and I remember it still (perhaps more accurately, I'm scarred for life... ). What's your point?

    Though I would absolutely love to see a Carmen Sandiago style story featuring Inquisitors trying to hunt down Trazan the Infinite.
    I think you could adapt Czevak's story (Atlas Infernal) pretty easily:

    Indiana Jones-in-Powered Armour with a memetic-virus (read; Hollywood!Autism), and uncovers a Book on some planet with his ensemble crew (which includes a Space Marine Techmarine, who can espouse technobabble, who is akin to Beast, of X-Men, who is both strong and smart, depending on what's required. The exact same impetus that encourages nerds to take up ju-jitsu [like I did].).
    Skeletor-in-Power Armour Ahriman wants the book.
    Space Clowns attempt to both help and hinder Czevak, whilst only hindering Ahriman.
    Since Czevak's meme-brain (read; Hollywood!Autism) has allowed him to both read and/or memorise the Atlas Infernal. Acquiring the Book, is Plan A. But since Ahriman can't read it, and it keeps changing so he can't memorise either, capturing Czevak is Plan B.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    I don't think 40k is categorically more wierd and radical than lots of other things that have met with mainstream success, let's not overestimate ourselves here. I think Game Of Thrones is a good example - there's a thousand characters double-dealing and betraying and chopping each other's ***** off and murdering children and having sex with their sisters, and until the disastrous second half of the final season it was the biggest property around. My mum watched it and then read the books, and she'd only watched Lord Of The Rings under duress. I think you could make a version of 40k that matches that - just add a bit of yuk or cronenbergian horror - and presumably that's what they're trying for with Eisenhorn.

    If anything, I would say the issue with the Horus Heresy is how very similar most of the characters would be: god bless'em but one Space Marine From Legion X is very much like the others. I think if I was asked to direct it, I'd probably tone down the space marines by like 15% and put more time into the supporting human characters (apart from anything else, it would help the gender balance a lot).

    EDIT: Though i suppose a bunch of it depends on how you define "mainstream". Personally I would say that a viewing public that has embraced Game of Thrones and Rick and Morty is probably not going to be turned off by Sharpe In Space Vs Daemon Summoners.
    Last edited by LeSwordfish; 2020-10-10 at 02:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    What about something like The Boys, but with Space Marines instead of Supers?

    Edit: For those not familiar with The Boys, it's an Amazon exclusive show. It starts off looking like an ultra-generic Superhero setting...
    and stays there. Replacing Stillwell with 'I R WOMAN I WANNA BABBI GIEF BABBI' turned S1 to trash, then bringing in Stormfront as 'empowered generic female #2143' ruined S2.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It is. Which is why it will never be mainstream.
    Game of Thrones is too violent. The Witcher is too confusing. The Mandalorian is just right.

    That's what you're looking for.



    First 40K book I ever read was Draco (The Inquisition War) - and I went 'backwards' and read Space Marine very soon after - and I remember it still (perhaps more accurately, I'm scarred for life... ). What's your point?



    I think you could adapt Czevak's story (Atlas Infernal) pretty easily:

    Indiana Jones-in-Powered Armour with a memetic-virus (read; Hollywood!Autism), and uncovers a Book on some planet with his ensemble crew (which includes a Space Marine Techmarine, who can espouse technobabble, who is akin to Beast, of X-Men, who is both strong and smart, depending on what's required. The exact same impetus that encourages nerds to take up ju-jitsu [like I did].).
    Skeletor-in-Power Armour Ahriman wants the book.
    Space Clowns attempt to both help and hinder Czevak, whilst only hindering Ahriman.
    Since Czevak's meme-brain (read; Hollywood!Autism) has allowed him to both read and/or memorise the Atlas Infernal. Acquiring the Book, is Plan A. But since Ahriman can't read it, and it keeps changing so he can't memorise either, capturing Czevak is Plan B.
    Game of Thrones and the Witcher are both highly successful. The former so much so that pretty much everyone at my work has seen it. It is almost the definition of being in the main stream.

    My point is that Gaunt's Ghosts is a good way to ease someone into 40K. It's a very relatable story that does slowly introduce more and more crazy 40K stuff as the series goes on. Most importantly, it is well written.


    Atlas Infernal really assumes you already know a bunch of 40K lore. Though it is a good story.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Game of Thrones and the Witcher are both highly successful. The former so much so that pretty much everyone at my work has seen it. It is almost the definition of being in the main stream.
    ...That's actually the definition of confirmation bias.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    8 seasons on HBO and 13 million views on its finale? I’d take a 40k series with those stats and call it mainstream enough.

    Yes I just googled those stats. I never watched GOT.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Over 30 percent of Americans consider themselves at least casual fans of the show as of 2019,
    confirmation bias
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    8 seasons on HBO and 13 million views on its finale?
    13m isn't a lot. I mean, yes, 13m on your HBO platform is phenomenal. That's a lot of money (that evaporated after the finale).
    But 13m, taken as a scope of the entire population? ...That ain't mainstream.
    Maybe people sailing the seven seas can bring the numbers up. But as 'official numbers' go, 13m is not a lot.

    I’d take a 40k series with those stats and call it mainstream enough.
    I mean, define 'mainstream'?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Good link. Thanks.
    Fantastic source.
    Maybe there were a lot of fans in the early seasons? ...A lot of people gave up through S6-8. So maybe there's some wiggle room, where you could probably say that somebody has seen it, but also they just hate it, too.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Good link. Thanks.
    Fantastic source.
    The source does say that - more than 30% are casual or serious fans. What percentage of people in the US do you think have even heard of warhammer? What percentage of people could name a single GoT character vs a single warhammer character? I was at a baseball game once where they asked the players for their favourite Game of Thrones characters - is that not "mainstream" enough for you?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    The source does say that - more than 30% are casual or serious fans.
    Mainstream
    the ideas, attitudes, or activities that are shared by most people and regarded as normal or conventional.
    30% isn't 'most people'.

    What percentage of people in the US do you think have even heard of warhammer?
    'Heard of', probably loads. Exactly the same way that I think a lot of people might know the word 'Charizard', like they might know the words 'Jon Snow' (and no, I don't mean the British Broadcaster). I think a lot of people would know what the words 'Space Marine' are. A lot of people know what 'Orks' are. Once you start showing them pictures of Tyranids and Necrons (i.e; Xenomorphs and Terminators), that's when things will start to fall apart.

    But, just 'cause you know what something is, doesn't mean you're a 'fan' of it, and it definitely doesn't mean that you're invested in it.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Oh okay, if you're referring to mainstream as "literally the majority of people watch and like it" then, once again, you're a crazy person and we've all wasted our time. Things that aren't mainstream: Baseball, Justin Bieber, Superhero Movies.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Cross game, but I can't read a Thanquol novel without thinking of Ciaphas Cain, and in a fit of fandom wound love a novel where they were set against each other. Two cowards face off, which unintentionally is able to claim victory despite their own failing.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Oh okay, if you're referring to mainstream as "literally the majority of people watch and like it" then, once again, you're a crazy person and we've all wasted our time. Things that aren't mainstream: Baseball, Justin Bieber, Superhero Movies.
    Yeah, this. Most people don't see most things. Particularly if you count between cultures.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    One interesting barometer for "mainstream" is about what gets advertised. The Boys, for instance, is nowhere near as famous as some of these other things we've been discussing, but there's a great big poster for it on the bus stop outside my house. That'll be an interesting Litmus test for the Eisenhorn TV series (which, by the sounds of things, is something they're genuinely trying for broader success with) - is it going to be plastered over the side of buses like The Man In The High Castle was?

    I'll repeat that I think Ravenor's an easier sell than Eisenhorn, but honestly I don't think either is too radical for a viewing public. Essentially, it's Bond vs Cthulhu: even novices to the universe will be able to pick up what a "psyker" and what a "daemon" are. The Warhammer universes are pretty dense*, but the advantage of Abnett's writing is that you can get a lot of the important feel from it with a world that's no denser than, say, His Dark Materials, The Man in the High Castle, or The Expanse, none of which are top-tier megafamous but would represent a massive step up from "some people know what a space marine is".

    *in every sense of the word, badum tish
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Oh okay, if you're referring to mainstream as "literally the majority of people watch and like it" then, once again, you're a crazy person and we've all wasted our time. Things that aren't mainstream: Baseball, Justin Bieber, Superhero Movies.
    Yeah, I was just about to ask if we should set a definition of mainstream, only to find that Cheesegear's "mainstream" 40k thing would have to be the most popular and famous thing in all of human history, shattering all known barriers of language, spacetime, culture, interests, and socioeconomics.

    So the answer to the question is, it was never going to happen. Not because of anything to do with 40k's viability as source material for popular entertainment, but because we're describing something that has never existed and likely never will.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    Yeah, I was just about to ask if we should set a definition of mainstream, only to find that Cheesegear's "mainstream" 40k thing would have to be the most popular and famous thing in all of human history, shattering all known barriers of language, spacetime, culture, interests, and socioeconomics.

    So the answer to the question is, it was never going to happen. Not because of anything to do with 40k's viability as source material for popular entertainment, but because we're describing something that has never existed and likely never will.
    For reference, Taylor Swift and Adele are slightly more than 50% favorably viewed (in america at least) - so sure, let's try and make a version of Warhammer with as much popular appeal as "Shake it Off".
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    For reference, Taylor Swift and Adele are slightly more than 50% favorably viewed (in america at least) - so sure, let's try and make a version of Warhammer with as much popular appeal as "Shake it Off".
    So we're (hypothetically) competing with songs and/or music videos in terms of mass appeal? If you're making a TV series, you compare it to other TV series. Compare movies to movies.

    Upon reflection I will admit that maybe "mainstream" was not the correct term to use in the first place. I was thinking more like, "successful enough to justify further investment and sequels/future seasons". Not ****ing "Shake it Off"!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    So we're (hypothetically) competing with songs and/or music videos in terms of mass appeal? If you're making a TV series, you compare it to other TV series. Compare movies to movies.

    Upon reflection I will admit that maybe "mainstream" was not the correct term to use in the first place. I was thinking more like, "successful enough to justify further investment and sequels/future seasons". Not ****ing "Shake it Off"!
    It wasn't a tremendously serious suggestion - more like trying to give an example of what would be mainstream by those standards.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    It wasn't a tremendously serious suggestion - more like trying to give an example of what would be mainstream by those standards.
    I apologize if I came across as harsh. I'm taking this a lot more seriously than I probably should be, it's an interesting topic to discuss regardless.

    I will go to bed now.*

    *seriously its 1:30 in the morning what am i even doing
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    and stays there. Replacing Stillwell with 'I R WOMAN I WANNA BABBI GIEF BABBI' turned S1 to trash, then bringing in Stormfront as 'empowered generic female #2143' ruined S2.
    I more meant the general concept of "these super-powered protectors that everybody loves turn out to be evil and some normal people are trying to take them down" than any actual specifics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But Space Marines-as-Fascists is already written into the setting. That's why for normies, you have to take that out, and make Space Marines...Well...Halo's Spartans.
    Generic, genetic super soldiers.

    If you told Timmy's Mum that those Space Marines she buys her son; Gun down civilian populations that carry a virus, follow the wrong religion or have the wrong genetics, 'for their own good'...Timmy's Mum might not buy him Space Marines anymore.
    So make the Space Marines in question Alpha Legion.

    "OMG! SPACE MARINES ARE HERE TO PROTECT US!"
    "...are you sure? They're acting kinda suss for good guys."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    I think they should open with The All Guardsman's Party. I would watch the heck out of that series.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    For a tv series my first thoughts are either to go with a mini series like Love, Death and Robots to give lots of interesting little self contained snippets, or a tight series of pdf/guardsman/inquisitor vs chaos or genestealer cult.
    By limiting it to one enemy the series doesn't get too distracted trying to explain why everyone is fighting over one planet, which is a failing in most of the big campaigns gw used to run and the two "cult" armies can start off nicely with human vs human before slowly reveal the alien/daemons that are running things in the background.
    A big advantage of tv over books is you can show a lot of the 40k setting that tends to get brushed over in the background without having to spend time describing it. Tech priests and servitors working on tanks in a depot that the protagonists walk through quickly show that things are weird. A statue of a space marine, a stained glass painting or a company banner can all show off that there are other things out there, but they're not relevant to most people's day to life.
    Last edited by Aliess; 2020-10-13 at 04:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Nice to see I can still spark interesting conversation

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    I do have a question, how has Guilliman changed since his return to the galactic stage? Character development and such^^

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Pffffft! My sides! This was too funny!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post

    I do have a question, how has Guilliman changed since his return to the galactic stage? Character development and such^^
    A higher-ranking lore adept will be along soon* to properly address your query, but as far as I can tell:

    Disappointed. In the state of the Imperium and in his father. Every time he meets a brother Primarch** he gets sad and angry. He doesn't even seem to trust Cawl.

    *Probably
    **Traitors and daemons, but brothers nonetheless
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    A higher-ranking lore adept will be along soon* to properly address your query, but as far as I can tell:

    Disappointed. In the state of the Imperium and in his father. Every time he meets a brother Primarch** he gets sad and angry. He doesn't even seem to trust Cawl.

    *Probably
    **Traitors and daemons, but brothers nonetheless
    Trusting a man that could have provided the Imperium with a constant stream of new and improved Space Marines while it was in reconstruction and throughout the later millennia, but didn't for selfish reasons sounds like a smart move.

    It sounds overall Guilliman doesn't have his head as deep in his own arse as he used to and all it took is seeing the results of ten thousand years of brutal dictatorship, sheer fanaticism and endless war.

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