Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Forum Explorer]

Such is the paradox of immortality. If you live long enough, the chance that you will be horribly maimed and forced to live (forever) in agony and despair inevitably approaches 100%. It's no longer a matter of 'if' it will happen but just 'when' - whether its 1 year away or 10,000, you can't dodge every bullet, every time, forever.

No wonder so many Space Marines - already superhuman, already immortal - turn to Chaos. Immortality is a lot more fun when one knows they can invoke the gift of their God in order to grow back their arms and legs when they inevitably lose them....

To be fair, the Imperium does have pretty good medical technology. Cybernetics make for good replacements, and are plentiful enough.

[LeSwordfish]

I mean, very straightforwardly they made The Mandalorian vulnerable by giving him things and people to protect, and principles to maintain while he did it. Space Marines protect big abstracts like "this gate" or "this planet" or "the imperium" and on occasion they actually do have to look after other people, they're typically kind of a **** to them. And then they're indoctrinated so their principles are, essentially, "try really hard not to lose" which is much harder to use as a separate source of tension than "don't ever show your face". In a way, that's a thing Deathwatch does very well - you can eke at least some drama out of "don't ever retreat" or "I should always be in charge" or "kill anybody who's a heretic", especially if it's not the baseline expectation of every named character in your story.

[Kris Strife]

...Is because Space Marines sell more than any other GW product, so they have a vested interest in making them look great and driving more sales.

I always wonder, and not just with GW stuff, how much of that is because they put 90% of their promotional materials towards that one part of their product line.

[noob]

I always wonder, and not just with GW stuff, how much of that is because they put 90% of their promotional materials towards that one part of their product line.

Because they like tall men?

[Cheesegear]

Pretty long way of saying you agree that poor writing is the problem.

I'm clarifying that it feels like the writing is intentionally poor, and that's the problem.

I mean, very straightforwardly they made The Mandalorian vulnerable by giving him things and people to protect, and principles to maintain while he did it.

There are several - and many major - sequences and scenes where that just isn't the case.

Space Marines protect big abstracts like "this gate" or "this planet" or "the imperium" and on occasion they actually do have to look after other people, they're typically kind of a **** to them. And then they're indoctrinated so their principles are, essentially, "try really hard not to lose"...

Which again falls into another characterisation problem of Space Marines; What is it, that Space Marines want? What are they working towards? What are their hopes and goals?
Unfortunately, unless you present your Marines as underdogs (which GW/BL doesn't, anymore), they don't really want, anything. Except to win the current engagement. Why? So they can win the next one. And then the next one after that, too.

That's why Space Marines are so hard to write - accidentally and intentionally - because how do you give a Space Marine, a want? What do they want? They don't want anything, because they're indoctrinated to not want anything except exactly what's already on the tin.

Gabriel Seth has very clear goals, and that's why he's one of my favourites. I actually know who he is and what he's about.

In a way, that's a thing Deathwatch does very well - you can eke at least some drama out of "don't ever retreat" or "I should always be in charge" or "kill anybody who's a heretic", especially if it's not the baseline expectation of every named character in your story.

Deathwatch - and other 40K RPGs - are, well, RPGs. The players get out of it exactly what they put in, and since it's game, failure states and threats are built into the game and they can't really be avoided.

I always wonder, and not just with GW stuff, how much of that is because they put 90% of their promotional materials towards that one part of their product line.

Circles.
GW sells Space Marines. Space Marines sell. Promote the fact that Space Marines sell, so that Space Marines sell more. GW sells even more Space Marines.
If Space Marines never sold in the first place, would GW promote them?

[Wraith]

To be fair, the Imperium does have pretty good medical technology. Cybernetics make for good replacements, and are plentiful enough.

True, but going down that road eventually gets you put into a Dreadnought, which has been described as a fate worse than death by even some Loyalists whose only goal is to kill the enemies of the Emperor.
Or if you're not Astartes, that still leads ultimately to Servitordom. Did you know that those guys are functionally immortal, too? Even during the Heresy, Sanguinius had a servitor in his office that had served him for about ~180 years, and had belonged to the Legion long before that.

Even if you don't go that far, augmetics kind of suck. Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium, complains that despite being stronger his bionic fingers aren't as tactile as his real fingers. Battle-Captain Garro, who has access to bionics meant for the top 1% of Astartes Legion in quality, hates his bionic leg because it just doesn't compare to his peak physical prowess.

I always wonder, and not just with GW stuff, how much of that is because they put 90% of their promotional materials towards that one part of their product line.

A long, long time ago - I think during the slump of 4th edition or something like that, just before Specialist Games closed down for the second time - I read a statistic/report/something or other that stated that Space Marines accounted for 50% of all GW products. This was when Warhammer Fantasy Battle, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Mordheim, Epic 40k and Lord of the Rings were all still supported, but before Black Library had really started to pick up speed, so if it's even close to true then it's impressive and implies that Space Marines were genuinely just popular.

From what I remember of 2nd edition, when I started playing and when GW pretty much was just 40k or WHF, Space Marines were popular because they were Space Marines. I definitely agree that they have had a considerable push since those long gone days, but I also think it at least started in genuine appeal to players rather than hype alone.
Especially given how AoS exploded in a way that I don't think anyone was able to predict - by all rights it should be the New Popular Kid On The Block, but still Space Marines have nearly as many codices available as AoS has army books combined. AoS was a runaway success, but people still seem to prefer Marines - I find it hard to believe that GW marketing alone is the cause of that, given how many hundreds of thousands of dollars were thrown at the AoS launch.

[Platinius]

Hmm, in the context of Darktide, Fatshark could also have made a game where you play 4 different Sisters of Battle, preferably from different orders and different specs.
They could also have made a group of assassins with each from a different temple to form the group.
They could have taken a member from some of the most famous IG regiments like a Catachan, a Cadian Shocktrooper, a Death Korps of Krieg combat engineer, a Vostoryan Firstborn and Mordant Acid Dog. This would have been neat in part because it could have given them easy material for interaction when they each mention their uniquely horrible homeworlds (or for the Cadian, how it is not there anymore)

I mention these in these groups to keep their relative power level close enough to each other.

[Lord Torath]

Have you tried the Wayback Machine? Or if you've forgotten the URL, do you remember any distinct phrasing from any of the stories that could be used in a targeted search?

I don't have the url for the old website.

But here's the short story:

Spoiler: The Intruder

Show

The ice was gone, of course, long before the seas themselves went during the sacrilegious bombardment of Holy Terra by the forces of the Great Traitor. All that was left behind was bare rock, rippled and whorled into a new sea of glassy, black stone from the unimaginable forces unleashed during those darkest of days.
Seeking new territory on Holy Terra came the Inquisition; the dread Ordo Hereticus. From one pole, already the site of their hidden headquarters, to another they went, new dungeons to exhume. Under this fused and newly-frozen ocean the Inquisition dug. Deep into the tortured bedrock they went, new halls and chambers won from the cold, dead stone, and filled with unnamable and eldritch secrets wrenched bleeding from a galaxy of horrors, stored far beneath the surface, never to rise.
Their labyrinthine delvings continued over the decades and centuries that followed, their underground empire branching new limbs and organs in the stygian depths, but the rumours that had plagued the sunken fortress of despair could not be buried.
Rumours of a man who stalked the tunnels, the corridors, the hallways in the eternal night, wreathed in red fire and rimmed with hoar-frost. Rumours of a man who was not a man, a daemon who could not be caught, not even by those who hunted the greatest and most mortal enemies of the Imperium. A cursed revenant of ages past who appeared once every year, evading security systems that could catch the mote in a man’s eye, one breath in a hurricane, the shadow of a shadow. Locked doors could not stop him; trusted steel and adamantium like rain unto a wave, and so the Inquisition huddled in their cells once a year, terrified to fall asleep.
But sleep they must, and sleep they did. And awoke, in the fake morning of that fake night, to find by their beds a single piece of darkest anthracite. And always the echoes, fading away down the endless halls and tunnels:
“Ho. Ho. Ho.”

That story was linked to on the old Eastern Fringe Forums, which are now defunct. I guess I could check the Wayback Machine for that one. Here's hoping!
Edit: No joy at the Wayback Fringe.

[Wraith]

Bittersweet news, for those who remember it - Today is Black Library Rejection Day. Responses are finally coming in from the Halloween Horror submissions, so be sure to check your inboxes if you applied.

Unfortunately, but not really surprisingly, BL weren't interested in my idea for The Usual Suspects-Meets-Hannibal in Space, so...maybe next year?

[LeSwordfish]

What are some good Imperial Fist Horus Heresy books? In case I was, say, staring down the possibility of picking up a super expensive, super hard to paint army.

A follow up to this: I pulled the trigger on said expensive hard to paint army with a second hand copy of Betrayal at Calth, and picked up Praetorian of Dorn as well, which I enjoyed a lot! Felt like a good contrast of fighting styles and skills, nearly had me wanting an Alpha Legion army instead. I'm really enjoying Dorn's characterisation, though.

[Artanis]

ASTARTES HAS GONE OFFICIAL!

https://youtu.be/LdI3WuiC6Pw

[Renegade Paladin]

ASTARTES HAS GONE OFFICIAL!

https://youtu.be/LdI3WuiC6Pw

And been removed from YouTube.

[Cheesegear]

ASTARTES HAS GONE OFFICIAL!

https://youtu.be/LdI3WuiC6Pw

"Creative gets bought out by GW."
I consider this bad news.

*Flashbacks to EA Games*

[Avaris]

And been removed from YouTube.

Yeah, it’s on the Warhammer Community site now with all parts put together as a single video. I’m not sure it was available as a single video before? But it’s a shame to have lost the separate videos as a record of what came before.

[DemonicAngel]

It's on the community website with lesser graphical quality (720p) which is a shame.. I hope they didn't buy him out just to make sure he doesn't make better stuff then they do.

[Artanis]

Well s***, I didn't notice it had been taken off of YouTube too

[Destro_Yersul]

It's on the community website with lesser graphical quality (720p) which is a shame.. I hope they didn't buy him out just to make sure he doesn't make better stuff then they do.

It has 1080p now, so that was probably just a processing thing.

[LansXero]

"Creative gets bought out by GW."
I consider this bad news.

*Flashbacks to EA Games*

Better than getting sued, but still unlikely to turn out well.

[Wraith]

Better than getting sued, but still unlikely to turn out well.

It worked out pretty well for Cyanide Studios - they made a serial-numbers-filed-off "homage" to Blood Bowl in 2005, got noticed by GW, and have Blood Bowl 3 coming out this summer.

[LeSwordfish]

I consider this bad news.

wow who'd have seen that coming

[Avaris]

wow who'd have seen that coming

As is frequently the case, Tabletop Inquirer sums up my position. https://twitter.com/TabletopInq/stat...99783826821123

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, it's pretty clear they made him an offer he can't refuse. The guy was pulling down five figures a month on Patreon, $10,000 minimum, assuming all of his patrons were subscribing at the minimum level. I doubt GW is paying him $120,000/year, but they almost certainly said to get on board or they'd see him in court.

[Cheesegear]

As is frequently the case, Tabletop Inquirer sums up my position. https://twitter.com/TabletopInq/stat...99783826821123

If I hadn't heard/read everything that I've heard/read about working for/at GW in the last 10 years, I might simp too.

Unfortunately, working at/for GW doesn't seem like 'the dream' anymore. Wrestlers getting signed to WWE is great news! Because WWE is the biggest game in town, and they can pay the most. There's no way that getting signed to WWE isn't fantastic news. But you're still getting signed to WWE - and there are many, many reasons why that's bad news.

Same as getting bought by EA Games. That's a huge paycheck, and now your indy studio has corporate money behind it. Of course that's good news...But is it all good news? No. No it isn't. There are lots of strings attached.

Same as getting signed to GW.

[snowblizz]

It is possible to hold opinions at the same time. Which can overlap to various degrees.

People can 1) recognize that something could be even greater with official backing and money but also know that 2) official backing runs the risk of sucking all the creative life out of it.

It's not the people who "changed their minds" on this that are the dumb ones. It's the people who insist you have to back something no matter what that are.

[Silverraptor]

I'm going to... reserve... all judgement on this until we start seeing actual outcomes of this agreement. No need to run around like chickens in the coup until you know if it's a squirrel or a fox.

[Cheesegear]

I'm going to... reserve... all judgement on this until we start seeing actual outcomes of this agreement...

So, see you in ~5 years after the NDAs expire?

[Silverraptor]

So, see you in ~5 years after the NDAs expire?

Was the time it took him to release his episodic videos all that different?

Edit: Wait. Were you saying he's not going to release anything in 5 years, or that I'm not reserving any right to complain while he is employed by Games Workshop?

[Avaris]

Was the time it took him to release his episodic videos all that different?

Edit: Wait. Were you saying he's not going to release anything in 5 years, or that I'm not reserving any right to complain while he is employed by Games Workshop?

I think it’s ‘wait until long after they’ve finished working with GW so they can say all the inevitable bad stuff about working with them’.

Which, fair enough. There will be wrinkles in the relationship with GW that they won’t be able to talk about while working with them. But prediction right now, they won’t be any worse than you’d get with any other company.

As for what GW offered, I don’t think it will have just been about the ‘we’ll sue you otherwise’. The Text to Speech series is still going after all, and that literally uses GW artwork, and is on almost $7k per month on Patreon. Instead, I’ll wager that part of the equation was some or all of:

• Reach. On youtube they were only able to reach a subsection of the Warhammer community. Having GW promoting the video will massively increase vierwship
• Support. Astartes is a one man show, GW can support it becoming something larger. Group projects are difficult to manage, the Astartes creator may not have wanted to do it themself, but happy for GW to do it
• Security. They brought in a lot via Patreon, but how long will that last? A contract with GW might give them desired certainty.
• Ambition. Astartes 1 is finished, albeit with clear plans for further content. Collaboration with GW may allow them to do more than they could alone.
• Prestige. Working with GW means this essentially becomes canon. Maybe that appealed.

It may be all of these, it may be none of them, we won’t know until they finish working with GW, maybe not even then.

The point is, there are positive reasons for a collaboration. GW is not a evil monolith sucking the joy from everything it touches, it’s just a company, no more good or evil than most. We likely won’t see any clearly negative affects from the collaboration, and probably a lot if benefits.

This is a creator getting ‘official’ support and recognition for a thing they spent a lot of time on. That is a good thing. I’ll judge the resulting content on its own merits when it comes out.

[Cheesegear]

But prediction right now, they won’t be any worse than you’d get with any other company.

Prediction right now, is that they'll treat him exactly as bad as the other ex-artists and creatives.

The Text to Speech series is still going after all, and that literally uses GW artwork,

>Implying that TTS is a competitor in the same market and/or creative space as Warhammer Animations...

[GW is] just a company, no more good or evil than most.

Does a quick Google search; That's a lot of ****ty stuff. Let's see what the 'New GW' magic can bring us...
Looks at GW share prices shooting to the moon.
...My guess is probably more of the same.

I’ll judge the resulting content on its own merits when it comes out.

The content is likely to be excellent. I don't think that's what people are worried about.

[LeSwordfish]

>Implying that TTS is a competitor in the same market and/or creative space as Warhammer Animations...

I imagine that it and similar projects would come up fairly swiftly in his defense against any kind of "work for us or we sue you" lawsuit. Which strikes me as somewhat less than legal.