Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[LansXero]

I imagine that it and similar projects would come up fairly swiftly in his defense against any kind of "work for us or we sue you" lawsuit. Which strikes me as somewhat less than legal.

Isn't parody legally protected?

>Implying that TTS is a competitor in the same market and/or creative space as Warhammer Animations...

shush you, Farsight fighting an ork in japanese with a Gundam IBO ending theme is canon, no matter what anybody says

[Avaris]

Isn't parody legally protected?

It is, but you could make the argument that TTSD is making stories using the IP that go beyond parody. I’m not sure GW would WIN a legal case on that basis, but if they were of a mind to shut something like TTSD down they could easily make it too expensive to continue through taking it to court as copyright infringement.

They won’t though, because of the bad PR, which is also why I doubt they’d have threatened Astartes with it: if they had refused to work with GW, and made the threat public, it would do a lot of damage to the GW brand in a way that they’ve experienced in the past and presumably want to avoid.

[The Glyphstone]

I cant imagine a company as litigious as GW isn't an expert at the Godfather style 'generous offer you can't refuse' implied-threat-that-isnt-explicitly-threatening.

[Artanis]

Isn't parody legally protected?

In theory, yes. On YouTube, not so much.

Edit: To elaborate, YouTube has a reputation for allowing videos to be taken down due to copyright strikes regardless of the legality. Being the original creator of an IP has proven to not be a defense from having a video taken down by a copyright-strike bot, nevermind whatever legal protections parody has.

[Fyraltari]

In theory, yes. On YouTube, not so much.

Edit: To elaborate, YouTube has a reputation for allowing videos to be taken down due to copyright strikes regardless of the legality. Being the original creator of an IP has proven to not be a defense from having a video taken down by a copyright-strike bot, nevermind whatever legal protections parody has.

I will forever remain amazed that when Lindsay Ellis's video on the Omegaverse lawsuit was copyright striken, YouTube decided that the case was too flimsy and did not take down the video.


This never happens. And yet.

[Renegade Paladin]

I will forever remain amazed that when Lindsay Ellis's video on the Omegaverse lawsuit was copyright striken, YouTube decided that the case was too flimsy and did not take down the video.


This never happens. And yet.

Lindsay Ellis runs a big time channel, at her level they actually get to talk to people at YouTube. That said, I've successfully fought a copyright strike before even with my no-access few hundred subscribers channel, because someone tried to claim a 180 year old public domain song that I performed myself as something entirely different; the case was SO obvious that nobody could even think it had merit.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

As great as Astartes was, the guy was clearly pushing his limits. Maybe, just maybe, he doesn't want to spend another year making five minutes of animation. Community goodwill doesn't pay the bills, and if GW brings the legal axe down on his head all the donations won't amount to much.

I don't know Syama or his situation so I can only speculate. Was he focusing all of his time and energy on Astartes? If so, that's a vulnerability he might have wanted to close off. GW may present themselves as different, but that doesn't mean they won't summon the lawyers when it suits them.

[Eldan]

Lindsay Ellis runs a big time channel, at her level they actually get to talk to people at YouTube. That said, I've successfully fought a copyright strike before even with my no-access few hundred subscribers channel, because someone tried to claim a 180 year old public domain song that I performed myself as something entirely different; the case was SO obvious that nobody could even think it had merit.

She doesn't just have a big channel, as she explained in her follow-up video, she also got several large legal and non-profit organisations involved almost immediately. She has contacts.

[Wraith]

I cant imagine a company as litigious as GW isn't an expert at the Godfather style 'generous offer you can't refuse' implied-threat-that-isnt-explicitly-threatening.

I wasn't being facetious before - this is literally what happened to Cyanide, the guys who approached GW to make a Blood Bowl videogame, were rejected, and went on to 'independently' develop "a fantasy-based sports management game" called Chaos League:

According to Eurogamer, Cyanide originally pitched the game idea to Games Workshop (circa 2001-2002) in hopes of developing a licensed Blood Bowl video game. When they were rejected, they developed Chaos League independently. Besides the obvious connections to the style of the game itself, both being violent fantasy sports, minor similarities were also noticeable to Blood Bowl fans. Most notable were the recurring skills in both like "Mighty Blow", "Bulldoze" and "Projectile". Even during a loading menu in after games, a well known red sun with an Orc face, usually found on Games Workshop inks can be seen in the background.

Games Workshop has announced (in 2006) that Cyanide Studios now have a license to create computer games based on Blood Bowl and that "Any differences between Games Workshop and Cyanide have been amicably settled for an undisclosed sum, and as part of the settlement the Chaos League title has been assigned to Games Workshop"

Cyanide made a game with an Evil Sunz logo in it, then 'settled out of court' (I can't directly say "They agreed to pay damages rather than lose absolutely everything in court" because that would require me to know intimate legal details, which I don't, but under the circumstances it's probably a pretty safe conclusion) and spent 15 years being part owned by GW and making games for them. BB2 and the upcoming BB3 might be a different story, but I can't imagine in the slightest that BB1 was developed entirely voluntarily - especially not with GW being who they were in 2005.

Obviously I can't say for certain that the same thing happened to the Astartes animation team BUT GW once tried to sue someone for using the word "Space Marine" in a novel about furry cat-people, and this time they actually do own the copyrights for nearly everything associated with the imagery in the cartoons. Especially after the whole ChapterHouse thing, wherein GW not only tightened up it's copyrights but legally confirmed a bunch of previously grey area stuff that is now definitively theirs to own and control.

[Cheesegear]

I wasn't being facetious before - this is literally what happened to Cyanide, the guys who approached GW to make a Blood Bowl videogame, were rejected, and went on to 'independently' develop "a fantasy-based sports management game" called Chaos League:
[...] then 'settled out of court'
[...] and [then] spent 15 years being part owned by GW and making games for them. BB2 and the upcoming BB3 might be a different story, but I can't imagine in the slightest that BB1 was developed entirely voluntarily - especially not with GW being who they were in 2005.

It's not that you can't work.
It's not that you can't make what you make.
You just have to make it for the corporation.

Nobody gets sued because everything's all good. You can't infringe copyright when the holder owns your work. Easy.

Join or Die. It's so easy. Choose 'Join', every time.

[Lord Torath]

Do all branches of the Inquisition use the same sigil? A capital "I" crossed three times? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that different branches had different numbers of 'crosses' on the "I".

[Cheesegear]

Do all branches of the Inquisition use the same sigil? A capitol "I" crossed three times?

No.

I seem to recall hearing somewhere that different branches had different numbers of 'crosses' on the "I".

Malcador's sigil is an Eye in the middle. Similar to the Astra Telepathica's.
Starbursts are fairly common.
The Deathwatch have a crossbones.
The Sisters of Silence have...Whatever that is.
Custodes have the Lightning Eagle.

I think the number of strokes on the =][=, and the differing amounts, might come from miniature limitations, not a real stylistic choice. Inquisitors can have their Rosette look like whatever they want, with an I in the middle. The strokes don't really have anything to do with anything as far as I'm aware.

[Wraith]

Going by the various artworks and other confirmed details about rosettes, it would seem that the only mandatory similarity in the design is that it be in the shape of an 'I'. 99% of the examples that I could find also has the image of a skull on the front, but I couldn't find anywhere that definitively said that was a part of the formal design and enough pictures of them don't so even that seems optional.

Otherwise, rosettes are as much heraldic devices as they are functional badges of office. They're often unique to the bearer, with some similarities based on common factors such as red/flame style for Order Hereticus, for example, or a particular design depending on where they are active or in some cases as an homage to who their mentor was. Both Gregor Eisenhorn and Gideon Ravenor's rosettes have a winged design, for example, which might indicate that they operate in the Scarus Sector and/or Segmentum Obscurus, or that there's a 'familial' link.

The Sisters of Silence have...Whatever that is.

A masked face with a 'third eye' on the forehead. Probably both a reference to their uniform armoured facemasks, and as an allusion to the Adeptus Astra Telepathica and/or the Adeptus Astronomica who each use a skull/third-eye logo; the Sisters logo is a 'covered psyker', so to speak.

I wonder why the I shape is used to represent 'Adeptus' in their logos? It's a common theme throughout various factions, including Malcador's own and some which predate that. The answer is probably that the GW lore writers came up with the *I*nquisition first and foremost and just stuck with it later, because an 'A' shaped badge or 'M' for Mechanicus and 'T' for Telepathica etc would look a little clunky, but an in-universe reason would be interesting too.

[Eldan]

I'm certain I've quite recently (last week) seen one without the skull somewhere, but now I can't find it.

As for personalized insignia, Lexicanum has this, which it credits to an art book from Black Library:

Edit: can't embed image for some reason. It's this:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Rosettes.jpg

An "I" with wings is apparently the Ordo Chronos.

[Wraith]

Miniatures tend not to have them , but artworks almost always do. And some have a non-standard version - Gregor Eisenhorn, for example, has an =I= shaped rosette with a plain bar across the front, and the (winged) skull balanced on the top.

An "I" with wings is apparently the Ordo Chronos.

The green one is Ordos Xenos - it's very similar to Gideon Ravenor's.

That being said, he deliberately modifies his depending on what he's doing - in Ravenor Rogue he changes it to... I want to say purple? I forget exactly, but its supposed to be a universally recognised (among Inquisitors) sign that he is acting without direct orders. Sort of suggests that "I know this looks bad, but I promise I'm still on your side" to hopefully get the benefit of the doubt when he bumps into other Inquisitors.

[Lord Torath]

The green one is Ordos Xenos - it's very similar to Gideon Ravenor's.

Similar? I'd say identical. Heck, they match down to the cracks on the skull.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

Have we ever had a book explaining how the first inquisitorial symbol was developed? Maybe it's not an "I" for Inquisition, but is in fact a pillar, representing that those who bear it hold up the weight of the entire Imperium on their shoulders. If I had to come up with a post-facto justification, that's what I'd go with.

[Wraith]

Have we ever had a book explaining how the first inquisitorial symbol was developed? Maybe it's not an "I" for Inquisition, but is in fact a pillar, representing that those who bear it hold up the weight of the entire Imperium on their shoulders. If I had to come up with a post-facto justification, that's what I'd go with.

Not yet. They're working towards it in the Siege of Terra novels; the 8 Grey Knights Grand Masters have been collected as have a group of "chosen" humans that Malcador has big plans for - they're presumed to be the founding members of the Inquisition, but they don't know it yet.

We will probably see the founding of the Inquisitors in the not-too-distant future; as Cheesegear said, the I-shaped logo is quite similar to the Mark of the Sigilite, so it's likely a variation of his symbol repurposed because it's one of his projects/sponsored by him.

[Forum Explorer]

That being said, he deliberately modifies his depending on what he's doing - in Ravenor Rogue he changes it to... I want to say purple? I forget exactly, but its supposed to be a universally recognised (among Inquisitors) sign that he is acting without direct orders. Sort of suggests that "I know this looks bad, but I promise I'm still on your side" to hopefully get the benefit of the doubt when he bumps into other Inquisitors.

I believe it was blue. And it's a sign that his enemies have somehow gotten a hold of his orders, either because they are Inquisitors themselves, have somehow compromised an Inquisitor, or are somehow spying on the Inquisition. That or they are going 'dark' for another reason.

[Lord Torath]

Who inherits the galaxy?

We've been told that humanity is pretty much doomed (although in the latest fluff with Guillman's return, that may have changed - I don't know). We've been told explicitly many times that the Eldar Aeldari are doomed. Squats got eaten several editions back. So of those who are left, who's going to win?

The Tau are probably not numerous enough, and their space travel is too slow to eliminate everyone else. If the Imperium wasn't busy fighting orks and tyranids and chaos forces, I think the Tau would be extinct.
Dark Eldar. Are they doomed? I admit I have not read much of their fluff. Is their 'devotion' to Slaanesh enough to keep them alive?
Orks seem like a good candidate. They are almost as difficult to root out of a planet as the Tyranids. Humans fight to live. Ork live to fight.
Chaos. They mostly 'feed' on humans and eldar. Can they get any 'nourishment' from orks? It seems to me that if humanity and the Eldar are gone, Chaos loses anything to feed upon.
Tyranids. These guys have a decent shot, being able to evolve faster than technology can keep up. Is it possible to lure them down an evolutionary path that will leave them vulnerable?
Necrons. A very likely contender. What do they want? Their fluff has changed drastically over the editions. The tyranids want nothing to do with them, and presumably the feeling is mutual. They could simply wait until the tyranids eat everyone else and leave for the next galaxy

[The Glyphstone]

Depending on how their fluff is now, the Necrons hate the Tyranids worse than anyone. Something about how if the nids eat all the biomatter, there's no chance the Silent King can find a way to reverse biotransference?

[Cheesegear]

So of those who are left, who's going to win?

It plays out more or less exactly as follows:

The Imperium can't win without a massive status quo shift. Specifically, the Emperor walking again. Assuming that that doesn't happen; The Imperium slouches towards Chaos, because Chaos is entropy, and entropy is inevitable.

The Cicatrix Maledictum keeps getting bigger and bigger. Chaos wins. The end.
- No matter what Orks do; Cicatrix.
- No matter what Necrons do; Cicatrix.
- No matter what T'au do; Cicatrix.
GW wrote themselves into a corner by literally tearing the Galaxy in half. Chaos. Can't. Lose. At this point.

Tyranids Fall. Everyone Dies.

Assuming that the Emperor does walk again:
All of the Chaos Primarchs come out of hiding and punch his **** in. Chaos in the last 10 thousand years, has gotten stronger, not weaker - unlike The Emperor.

The Cicatrix Maledictum keeps getting bigger and bigger. Chaos wins. The end. It's not a plot hole. It's a plot rift in the setting that can't be undone without straight up removing it through massive changes in the status quo...Which is what caused it in the first place.

Tyranids Fall. Everyone Dies.

The Cicatrix Maledictum is the worst thing to happen to setting speculators. Because it literally ruins any ideas you have for a future state of the Galaxy, short of "And then it was eaten by Chaos."

[LansXero]

Who inherits the galaxy?

Nobody. a Chaos win means sentients dissapear and the chaos gods turn their attentions to another galaxy or dissolve. So its suicide. Necrons dont feed them but dynasties dont last forever, they all are prone to engramatic damage so unless they can get souled again they also fade to nothing. If they get souls, chaos and then nothing. Tyranids winning means they eat the galaxy then move on and leave nothing.

[Wraith]

If Chaos "win", sentient life comes to an end as all is consumed in civil war and then whatever is left gets eaten by Daemons until the Gods get bored and go looking for another set of playthings. The next inheritors of the galaxy would be non-sentient creatures who are left to evolve sentience over the next million years or so. There might be an isolated world of 'Feral' humans left out there somewhere in the darkest depths of the void, but as with the rest of humanity it's just a matter of time until one of them is born a Psyker and they too perish.

If Tyranids "win" then it's basically the same thing, except that they consume everything down to a microscopic scale so life would then have to re-evolve from errant protein strands, to amoeba, to 'people' over the next ~3.5billion years. Assuming that it is even possible without the interference of the Old Ones, who are now dead and gone.

[Lord Torath]

What's the Cicatrix Maledictum? I mean, I get it's a rift that split the galaxy in half, but Who, When, Why, and How? I'll accept both in- and out-of-universe answers.

Assuming the Emperor wakes up (or Ahriman succeeds in breaching the Black Library, mastering the Warp and throwing off the corruption of Chaos, slays the Emperor, takes his place and inherits his power) is this something he could undo?

My understanding was that Gork and Mork were as powerful as the Chaos gods combined, and thus could protect the orks from corruption by Chaos.

[JNAProductions]

What's the Cicatrix Maledictum? I mean, I get it's a rift that split the galaxy in half, but Who, When, Why, and How? I'll accept both in- and out-of-universe answers.

Assuming the Emperor wakes up (or Ahriman succeeds in breaching the Black Library, mastering the Warp and throwing off the corruption of Chaos, slays the Emperor, takes his place and inherits his power) is this something he could undo?

My understanding was that Gork and Mork were as powerful as the Chaos gods combined, and thus could protect the orks from corruption by Chaos.

I don't think Gork and Mork are needed to protect Orks-Orks just aren't very susceptible to Chaos to start with. They're simple folk, those Orks are-none of the worry and confusion of humans.

[Lord Torath]

Also, could Gork and Mork stop the Cicatrix Maledictum, were they so inclined?

[JNAProductions]

Also, could Gork and Mork stop the Cicatrix Maledictum, were they so inclined?

Probably-they are the most powerful warp entities-but why would they? Why should they care?

[LansXero]

What's the Cicatrix Maledictum? I mean, I get it's a rift that split the galaxy in half, but Who, When, Why, and How? I'll accept both in- and out-of-universe answers.

Its not a rift, in so far that it doesn't lead anywhere. Its like the Eye of Terror, a lot of no-space where the warp bleeds directly into the material realm. The galaxy there isn't "split", it just isn't, because warp unmakes things and stops them being real.

Assuming the Emperor wakes up (or Ahriman succeeds in breaching the Black Library, mastering the Warp and throwing off the corruption of Chaos, slays the Emperor, takes his place and inherits his power) is this something he could undo?

The warp and the Chaos gods are not synonim. Even an "uncorrupted" warp is still a galaxy sized ocean pouring freely into the materium and eroding its shores with every passing second. Its done, its over.

My understanding was that Gork and Mork were as powerful as the Chaos gods combined, and thus could protect the orks from corruption by Chaos.

Doesn't matter at all. an Ork thrown naked into raw warp will dissolve just the same with or without "protection" from their gods.

[Forum Explorer]

It plays out more or less exactly as follows:

The Imperium can't win without a massive status quo shift. Specifically, the Emperor walking again. Assuming that that doesn't happen; The Imperium slouches towards Chaos, because Chaos is entropy, and entropy is inevitable.

The Cicatrix Maledictum keeps getting bigger and bigger. Chaos wins. The end.
- No matter what Orks do; Cicatrix.
- No matter what Necrons do; Cicatrix.
- No matter what T'au do; Cicatrix.
GW wrote themselves into a corner by literally tearing the Galaxy in half. Chaos. Can't. Lose. At this point.

Tyranids Fall. Everyone Dies.

Assuming that the Emperor does walk again:
All of the Chaos Primarchs come out of hiding and punch his **** in. Chaos in the last 10 thousand years, has gotten stronger, not weaker - unlike The Emperor.

The Cicatrix Maledictum keeps getting bigger and bigger. Chaos wins. The end. It's not a plot hole. It's a plot rift in the setting that can't be undone without straight up removing it through massive changes in the status quo...Which is what caused it in the first place.

Tyranids Fall. Everyone Dies.

The Cicatrix Maledictum is the worst thing to happen to setting speculators. Because it literally ruins any ideas you have for a future state of the Galaxy, short of "And then it was eaten by Chaos."

Why would the rift grow more at this point? Without someone doing something to make it grow anyways. Chaos' dominion has expanded, but if you wipe out the CSM, they aren't left with that much to threaten the galaxy with. Admittedly, easier said than done, but it is still possible.

Its not a rift, in so far that it doesn't lead anywhere. Its like the Eye of Terror, a lot of no-space where the warp bleeds directly into the material realm. The galaxy there isn't "split", it just isn't, because warp unmakes things and stops them being real.



The warp and the Chaos gods are not synonim. Even an "uncorrupted" warp is still a galaxy sized ocean pouring freely into the materium and eroding its shores with every passing second. Its done, its over.



Doesn't matter at all. an Ork thrown naked into raw warp will dissolve just the same with or without "protection" from their gods.

Stuff doesn't melt in the warp. There are entire planets in the warp that have spent the last 10 000 years inside it. They change, and have weird things happen there, but they don't dissolve into nothingness.