Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Brookshw]

Cursed City is reprinting. Possibly a shame they didn't announce it months age when I was looking for something Heroquest-ish to play with the kids, because Heroquest just reprinted - which I only know because I was looking for an alternative to CC when it didn't seem like it would reprint. Also, I'm completely unclear if it'll be a supported game with years of expansions, or a "one-and-done" like last print run.

Pretty sure I'll pass at this point....pretty sure.

[Avaris]

Cursed City is reprinting. Possibly a shame they didn't announce it months age when I was looking for something Heroquest-ish to play with the kids, because Heroquest just reprinted - which I only know because I was looking for an alternative to CC when it didn't seem like it would reprint. Also, I'm completely unclear if it'll be a supported game with years of expansions, or a "one-and-done" like last print run.

Pretty sure I'll pass at this point....pretty sure.

The announcement mentioned expansions would be coming. I suspect they’ll mostly be repackages if the various Vampires that were blatantly supposed to be CC expansions in the first place!

[Renegade Paladin]

In recognition of the Space Marine 2 announcement, I'm doing a playthrough of Space Marine on YouTube, premiering Wednesday (my channel's normal Warhammer upload day) and doing a chapter at a time. Everything from the fourth part on will be a blind first play; I picked the game up for free at one point and never finished it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Sorry for the double post, but merry Kriegmas!

[Artanis]

*happy gasmask noises*

[Brookshw]

Anyone know if an Ogor mini is on a good scale to use for D&D?

[hamishspence]

Might need to fudge the base size a little (characters in particular tend to have oversized bases) but an ogor could reasonably represent a Large creature - a plump Ogre or a Hill Giant - when compared to the modern plastic D&D models.

5e's Hill Giants (as opposed to 3e or 4e) are Huge though if I remember rightly - so it would have to be an Ogre only, in 5e.

[Brookshw]

Might need to fudge the base size a little (characters in particular tend to have oversized bases) but an ogor could reasonably represent a Large creature - a plump Ogre or a Hill Giant - when compared to the modern plastic D&D models.

5e's Hill Giants (as opposed to 3e or 4e) are Huge though if I remember rightly - so it would have to be an Ogre only, in 5e.

Scaled as an ogre would be perfect, thanks for confirming. I realize I was not clear enough in my inquiry, my apologies and thanks for the additional context.

[Squark]

It looks like unless an Ogor has something extra like a cooking pot or artillery piece, their largest base size is 50mm, which should just fit into the 2"×2" square large creatures occupy.

[Cheesegear]

Anyone know if an Ogor mini is on a good scale to use for D&D?

Using D&D scale, a Warhammer Ogor is equivalent to a D&D Half-Ogre, and I use them as such.

Spoiler: Ogre vs. Ogor

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Sorry for glare. Photo was literally taken on spur of the moment for this post.

Scaled as an ogre would be passable

Fixed that for you. Nobody will actually care.

[hamishspence]

D&D half-ogres are a PC race, and at the short end of Large, though - shaped more like "average human, but 8 ft tall".

The largest Sigmar warriors though, would make perfect half-ogre fighters.

[Cheesegear]

The largest Sigmar warriors though, would make perfect half-ogre fighters.

D&D is 25/28mm scale.
All the new stuff for Warhammer is coming out at 32mm scale - including Heresy-era Marines. Although it would look odd, a lot of 32mm-scale models for Warhammer, would be in scale to be on Large bases, as has been pointed out, on the 'smaller' end of the scale. However, in D&D, that is not a problem at all. Because Size is determined by height and/or width.

Spoiler: Verneranda

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This animated suit of armour with a brain-in-a-jar for a head, may be thin, but he's still over 8 ft. tall, and that makes him Large, even if he does have a lot of negative space on his base.

And that's sort of my point.
You could use a Warhammer Ogor on a Large base, they are a good size for a Half-Ogre. If you want the Ogor model to represent a D&D Ogre, well, it doesn't. But it's still a model on a Large base and I'm sure your players will be able to figure out where the Ogre is on the map, even if you don't have the 'right' model.

[hamishspence]

You could use a Warhammer Ogor on a Large base, they are a good size for a Half-Ogre. If you want the Ogor model to represent a D&D Ogre, well, it doesn't. But it's still a model on a Large base and I'm sure your players will be able to figure out where the Ogre is on the map, even if you don't have the 'right' model.

I was thinking more in terms of "An Ogor compared to an old Empire model from the time the first Ogre models came out".

If someone's using a random "Empire Soldier" as a low level fighter, the Ogor (or Ogre Kingdoms model) dwarfs it in a way that an appropriate Half-Ogre wouldn't.

Average ogres in D&D are 600-650 pounds and between 8 and 10 ft tall.

Average half-ogre males are less than 400 pounds, and around 7 ft 11.

Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms ogre models represent creatures of around 10 ft height rather than 8 ft (when compared to typical Empire foot soldiers assumed to be average human height) and vastly more than 600 pounds (since Warhammer Ogors have a much more chunky physique than D&D ogres).

That's why I think Ogre Kingdoms stuff is better as Full Ogres than Half-Ogres - because the models are so vast compared to human models that were coming out at the same time.

As long as they're not used alongside existing D&D Ogre models, it should work fine.

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms ogre models represent creatures of around 10 ft height

Then they are not to scale, and bad models.
Of course, this is GW, where an 8 ft. Space Marine was the same size as a 5'6" Guardsman.

As long as they're not used alongside existing D&D Ogre models, it should work fine.

Right.
Warhammer models are not to scale. D&D models, are.

EDIT: I got out my Firbolg model to check something...I was right.

Spoiler: Let's Try This Again

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Left to Right;
Elf; 5-6 ft. tall
Firbolg; 7-8 ft. tall.
"Half-Orge"; 7-8 ft. tall.
Ogre; 10-11 ft. tall...About double the size of the Elf.

[Brookshw]

Thanks for the feedback, and apologies for the delayed reply. Having grabbed a box, eh, close enough.

[Wraith]

On the subject of miniature scale, I thought I'd share this.

This year, plague allowing and such, I'm going to take up competitive Blood Bowl again. I haven't played face-to-face for about 4 years and my last tournament ended in 2004 or so (my Skaven team came fourth behind two Blackshirts in 1st and 2nd, and the guy who came 3rd won "Highest Scoring Game of the Season" with me by throwing snotlings all over the place - it was pretty great) so a lot of my minis are old and needed repainting.

I decided to start with my Chaos Dwarfs, for whom I don't have a Minotaur. I thought long and hard and decided, you know what'd make a great bull-themed centre-piece for my team? The Wildfire Taurus Endless Spell from AoS, that's what.

Standing them side-by-side, I may have to rethink my plan....

Spoiler

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For reference, the mini on the left is Headsplitter, a Star Player Rat Ogre, and the one on the right is a metal Kroxigor from my Lizardman team. I don't think I'm allowed to use a mini that only fits on a 2x3 square space, not since first edition....

[Brookshw]

Did they ever explain how Lord Kroak "survived" the end times, what he was up to between WFB and AOS, and what he's doing now?

(I know we had a AOS thread, but, figure may as well just ask in the fluff thread since it's largely the same people, and the question doesn't really need a while thread of its own, as the AOS thread seems to have fallen off)

[Fyraltari]

Did they ever explain how Lord Kroak "survived" the end times, what he was up to between WFB and AOS, and what he's doing now?

(I know we had a AOS thread, but, figure may as well just ask in the fluff thread since it's largely the same people, and the question doesn't really need a while thread of its own, as the AOS thread seems to have fallen off)

Didn't the Lizardmen nope out of the End Times in their temples-that-are-actually-spaceships?

[Grim Portent]

Did they ever explain how Lord Kroak "survived" the end times, what he was up to between WFB and AOS, and what he's doing now?

(I know we had a AOS thread, but, figure may as well just ask in the fluff thread since it's largely the same people, and the question doesn't really need a while thread of its own, as the AOS thread seems to have fallen off)

IIRC the lizardmen's temple cities activated the ancient engines that brought the Old Ones to the world in the first place, letting them leave the planet and survive in the void long enough to reach the Realms of AoS, but the journey took so long that very few of the non-Slaan survived, and even some of them died. Kroak, being undead, was one of the Slann most capable of surviving the trip.

Since arriving in the realms my understanding is that the Lizardmen, now mostly extinct, became tenuous allies of Sigmar and Dracothion a dragon god native to the realms. When Chaos invaded the Slann were among those who tried to fight back, but such a tide is near impossible to truly stop. Now they are still fighting, but the Slann as always are somewhat inscrutable and often hostile to the other races, viewing them as obstacles to the war against Chaos as often as allies in it.

Kroak himself has probably spent a lot of his time asleep, as Slann do and he especially does, before waking up in response to the growing power of Chaos, the appearance of the Stormcast, the failure of Nagash's attempt to control everything, the return of the native god Kragnos, or other similar events. I don't know which event in particular is meant to have awoken him at the time of his model being released since I don't keep an eye on the Seraphon.

[LeSwordfish]

The Slann are becoming much more friendly recently, with Kroak and an army of Seraphon showing up to help out in the Broken Realms books. There's also now "coalesced" Seraphon - real flesh-and-blood ones, not star dreams - that live in the realms, including skinks living in human cities etc.

[Brookshw]

Didn't the Lizardmen nope out of the End Times in their temples-that-are-actually-spaceships?

Some, we didn't get a resolution for a few of their characters, and some definitely died. For Kroak, I'm confused by his reappearance as I believe he stayed behind to lessen the impact of the moon's fall, and to bubble certain parts of Lustria (that he wasn't in), apparently dying again in the process. So I'm a bit confused by the reappearance and if there was something more to it

[Destro_Yersul]

Apart from the End Times being silly and GW quietly ignoring lots of it now that it's over with?

[Grim Portent]

Some, we didn't get a resolution for a few of their characters, and some definitely died. For Kroak, I'm confused by his reappearance as I believe he stayed behind to lessen the impact of the moon's fall, and to bubble certain parts of Lustria (that he wasn't in), apparently dying again in the process. So I'm a bit confused by the reappearance and if there was something more to it

I think he basically just refused to stay dead. His dedication to the destruction of Chaos is so absolute that he was able to defy death even in the face of the world's annhiliation, similar to how several other characters managed to survive by essentially being so powerful that they could escape the clutches of the dark gods.

EDIT: It's odd that Sigmar was able to escape the gods come to think of it. You'd think of all the souls in the world that was his would be the one they most desired to consume, though I guess with all the souls they were eating at the time he may have been considered less important than squabbling over the rest of the spoils.

[Dragonus45]

I think he basically just refused to stay dead. His dedication to the destruction of Chaos is so absolute that he was able to defy death even in the face of the world's annhiliation, similar to how several other characters managed to survive by essentially being so powerful that they could escape the clutches of the dark gods.

EDIT: It's odd that Sigmar was able to escape the gods come to think of it. You'd think of all the souls in the world that was his would be the one they most desired to consume, though I guess with all the souls they were eating at the time he may have been considered less important than squabbling over the rest of the spoils.

Almost like the End Times transitioning into Age of Sigmar was really poorly thought out or something I guess.

[LeSwordfish]

I think he basically just refused to stay dead. His dedication to the destruction of Chaos is so absolute that he was able to defy death even in the face of the world's annhiliation, similar to how several other characters managed to survive by essentially being so powerful that they could escape the clutches of the dark gods.

Wasn't Kroak already dead anyway?

[Grim Portent]

Almost like the End Times transitioning into Age of Sigmar was really poorly thought out or something I guess.

Oh certainly, it's hard to tell how much they actually expected of it when they first launched it so they did very much half ass it.

Wasn't Kroak already dead anyway?

Undead. Sort of. My understanding is that in WHF his mummy had his soul clinging to it as a result of both stubborness and sheer magical power, which I think had the effect of rendering his corpse nearly impervious to harm on the rare occasions he fought things, but with the side effect of making him even harder to wake than a normal Slann.

Without getting a Seraphon tome to check his AoS fluff in detail, assuming his backstory isn't left in a vague 'in the mists of time...' kind of state, I can only presume that his refusal to die outlasted the literal apocalypse and allowed him to survive long enough to either reach the realms or be found by the other Slann.

Or maybe he's now some kind of magical hallucination manifested by the Slann as a result of them licking each other which is powerful enough to be indistinguishable from the original dried up frog man. /shrug

[lord_khaine]

Wasn't Kroak already dead anyway?

He was dead. And had been so for an extremely long time.
But he was sufficiently powerful to not care about it to much.
Its incorrect to call him undead though.

[thethird]

So... you know how the warp is weird and mangly. I understand that Slaanesh existed before he was given birth and stuff. But do other daemons also exist before you know they exist? What about things like are like daemon gods but not quite, like the human interpretation of the greater good? What about daemon princes? What about things that are like daemon princes but not quite, like Saint Celestine?

[Fyraltari]

So... you know how the warp is weird and mangly. I understand that Slaanesh existed before he was given birth and stuff. But do other daemons also exist before you know they exist? What about things like are like daemon gods but not quite, like the human interpretation of the greater good? What about daemon princes? What about things that are like daemon princes but not quite, like Saint Celestine?

Probably, mortals going through the Warp may exit it before their birth, I fail to see why the same couldn't apply to the warp's natives, especially if they wish it.

[tyckspoon]

So... you know how the warp is weird and mangly. I understand that Slaanesh existed before he was given birth and stuff. But do other daemons also exist before you know they exist? What about things like are like daemon gods but not quite, like the human interpretation of the greater good? What about daemon princes? What about things that are like daemon princes but not quite, like Saint Celestine?

For native warp beings, I would expect them to be similarly a-temporal in relation to 'reality', although they generally also can't directly act on the material world and would need Psykers/sorcerors/true believers/some other way of being channeled into the specific time and place where they are desired to act. It may also require a specific level of power/breadth of .. umm.. existence? For an entity to be aware of the possibility that they existed before they existed and try to act on things that should be paradoxical.
Ascended creatures that were originally mortal should have a definite real-world timeline, although if they become powerful and knowledgeable enough in navigating the Warp they may be able to use it to act on periods outside of their own, especially if somebody in those times somehow gains knowledge of them and specifically tries to invoke them.