Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Grim Portent]

The nature of the Warp allows things to exist without cause, or to create the event that allowed them to exist in the first place. In addition to gods like Slaanesh this includes mortals, or near mortals anyway, like a house of chaos knights who's revenge for being banished is what caused them to be banished in a closed time loop, or Abaddon having knowledge given to him by a version of himself that travelled back in time. Or Argel-Tal enabling the chaos gods to abduct the primarchs which in turn led to Argel-Tal existing and enabling the gods.

Closed time loops in which effect precedes and results in cause are an established part of the setting and apply to mortals as well as gods and daemons.


Daemons for the most part seem to have no real control over when they enter realspace, they get swept along by the tides of the Warp and that sometimes results in them making appearances out of chronological order without intending to or necessarily even being aware of it. This is part of what results in them making prophecies, they just recount events that have already happened from their personal timeline in flowery language.

The chaos gods are powerful enough to direct the Warp to some extent, so they can violate time with only vague and unclear limits placed upon them. The other gods seem to be weaker when it comes to defying reality and causality, with none of the Eldar gods defying the conventional order of time to my knowledge, save for a bit of prophecy giving, and the C'Tan being able to warp time's flow but not travel through it. The Greater Good is implied to be a lesser warp god, so it might have the same temporal warping powers as the chaos gods in theory.

Some Imperial phenomena might appear prior to the event that created them I think, but such events are usually written to be vague and open to interpretation. Things like the Legion of the Damned and the Obsidian Knight are strange, and possibly not bound by conventional time but without ever being stated as such.

[Artanis]

Basically, the Warp works however the author needs it to work for a given story

[Grim Portent]

Basically, the Warp works however the author needs it to work for a given story

Bingo, but it can be fun to try and think about how it's supposed to work from an in-universe perspective.


I like to think of it as the chaos gods literally playing a game with the setting, sort of like Crusader Kings but for extradimensional parasites. When they really want to they might use console commands (Warp shenanigans like time paradoxes) to cheat so an AI (mortal) doesn't win, or to do something they want impulsively without thinking about it, but they're also trying to beat one another more or less fairly so they don't just cheat all the time because that just leads to things getting out of control and it stops being fun to play with godmode active all the time.

So my headcanon is that the gods could do almost anything they want, but they don't because winning isn't the point in itself, playing the game and winning properly is the point. It might even be possible for them to all lose, in which case they become unmoored from that reality and have to go find another to feed.

It more or less reconciles why they can do some of the crazy OP stuff they do, but they rarely seem to use it to win a major battle or destroy an obstacle.

[thethird]

Bingo, but it can be fun to try and think about how it's supposed to work from an in-universe perspective.

Yep.

So we have canon examples of time travel. Time travel involves the warp, and mostly involves chaos gods. We have some other probably time travel things that deal with the warp but not chaos factions like the Legion of the Damned (or Obsidian Knight? I need to brush up on that).

This is tied to the warp, we have Eldar gods with prophecy but not actual time travel. Ynnead? Was Ynnead a god before Ynnead was birthed?

And we don't have C'tan time travel... Is Orikan time traveling? Through the power of SCIENCE!?

[Grim Portent]

The Obsidian Knight is an Imperial Knight who has the same general shtick as the Legion of the Damned. Appears mysteriously when the Imperium's need is great, survives events that should kill them like falling off a cliff, dissapears just as mysteriously as they arrived. Appears on battlefields seperated by vast amounts of distance and time. It's another Imperial ghost warrior thing.

Ynnead was, and still is I think, a nascent god. Not alive/awake, but growing. Like a seed or an egg, a potential that had not yet been realised. Half born now, but the ritual to birth him(?) failed before he could fully awaken. So far there's no displays of temporal anomolies that I know of from Ynnead, other than the prophecies that he would eventually be born, but that may change if Ynnead is ever fully born.

As for the Necrons, I think some of them have time travel, but I don't know if it's actual back and forth travel or just slowing or speeding up time in a given area. The C'Tan didn't use such powers to escape the Necrons or fight the Old Ones, so I assume their time manipulating powers didn't include the ability to travel through time, but more just the same sort of effects of things like high gravity or extreme speed have on time irl.

[Fyraltari]

I believe the C'tan have no connection to thr warp whatsoever? The Infinite and the Divine has Orikan resetting the universe to a previous state several times in quick succession, like in the Sands of Time game, to rig a trial through "chronomancy".

Also there's a granfather paradox with the Ork boss who attacked his past self so he could have his favourite gun twice.

[Grim Portent]

I believe the C'tan have no connection to thr warp whatsoever? The Infinite and the Divine has Orikan resetting the universe to a previous state several times in quick succession, like in the Sands of Time game, to rig a trial through "chronomancy".

Also there's a granfather paradox with the Ork boss who attacked his past self so he could have his favourite gun twice.

They certainly have no Warp connection, I only brought them up as a comparison point to the Chaos Gods because they are one of the other pantheons of godlike beings in the setting.

[thethird]

As for the Necrons, I think some of them have time travel, but I don't know if it's actual back and forth travel or just slowing or speeding up time in a given area. The C'Tan didn't use such powers to escape the Necrons or fight the Old Ones, so I assume their time manipulating powers didn't include the ability to travel through time, but more just the same sort of effects of things like high gravity or extreme speed have on time irl.

I believe the C'tan have no connection to thr warp whatsoever? The Infinite and the Divine has Orikan resetting the universe to a previous state several times in quick succession, like in the Sands of Time game, to rig a trial through "chronomancy".

So let's say that necrons/c'tan have the ability to change the speed at which they traverse forward but not travel backwards?

I am not all familiar with all of Orikan's fluff that's why I asked. Being able to stablish a save point is interesting, did he keep memories through timelines?

Also there's a granfather paradox with the Ork boss who attacked his past self so he could have his favourite gun twice.

That involved warp shenanigans. Like other examples up thread.

So let's say that the Chaos/Warp Gods have the power to force time travel, and existing at different points in time.

And on the imperial side we have examples of stuff that looks very much like time travel on things that look very much like daemons (legion of the damned, obsidian knight, saint celestine) but not to the point of slaneesh existing before it's birth.

For that matter we know the emperor has foresight and prophecy, but it's not foolproof, and he probably can't time travel himself.

Do we have any fluff on the Ordo Cronos beyond being a footnote?

[Fyraltari]

So let's say that necrons/c'tan have the ability to change the speed at which they traverse forward but not travel backwards?

I am not all familiar with all of Orikan's fluff that's why I asked. Being able to stablish a save point is interesting, did he keep memories through timelines?

Yes. The setup was that he and Trazyn were trying to settle who was the owner of a particular artifact but the Awakaned Council (the ad hoc political body the necrons came up with to govern the various necrons who'd waken up early) members all ahd conflict of interests some both parties ahd to agree on an impartial judge. The first one ended up finding both Trazyn and Orikan guilty of treason and ordered them both executed. So Orikan rewound time and argued for another judge to be chosen. This one agreed with Trazyn. So he rewound time again. This went on for a while until he ran out of magic juice and landed on a judge who came up with an actual compromise.

That involved warp shenanigans. Like other examples up thread.

I know, but it's a different type of paradox (self-contradiction rather than self-causation).

Do we have any fluff on the Ordo Cronos beyond being a footnote?

Not much, apparently.

[Grim Portent]

Not much that I know of. The Ordo Chronos is one of those things that by nature can't really be expanded upon. They were investigating stuff involving time, they all vanished, very rarely someone claiming to be from the order shows up and helps with a situation before vanishing. They returned or were reformed with new members when Guilliman woke up and were involved in his attempts to fix the imperial dating system that had become distorted over the years, and were presumably involved in drawing the conclusion that because of the time distortions caused by the great rift a single standard time was no longer possible to measure.

We know more about fallen Inquisitorial creeds like the Phaenonites than we do about the minor ordos like Chronos.



The Dark Age human empire had technology that could alter time now I think about it, one of the ships that became an Ark Mechanicus has a dark age gun that can't miss because it alters time so that the target is always in the path of it's projectile IIRC. So weaponised temporal manipulation is something humanity was using in the past, which could imply a range of other time based technology that has been lost.

[BRC]

The Necrons have some sort of time manipulation technology. Dark Age Humans may have stumbled upon some variation on the same.

Although in all instances that I recall, it's more like short-term save scumming or predicting possible near-futures than "Time Travel".

[Drasius]

There's also an audiodrama with Thousand Son pyskers pitting their warp ****ery against a captured chronomancer/cryptek.

A quick google reminds me that the title is "Key of Infinity", and it's pretty good. Which is to be expected, 'cause it's by John French.

https://www.blacklibrary.com/all-pro...inity-mp3.html

[Mordokai]

I'm currently reading The Outcast Dead and I have some questions. I will not be marking anything, but there might be spoilers in here.

So we all know that Magnus breaching Emperor's Webway project was kind of a big deal. He did it with good intentions(wanting to warn Emperor of Horus' betrayal) and kinda ****ed everything up. Whether he was right in doing that is another topic altogether and one I imagine has been litigated to death and then some.

But as I understand it from Outcast Dead... was there really a point to Magnus pretty much screwing IoM for the next ten millenia? He did it so Emperor could know Horus has turned to Chaos, giving Emperor the foreknowledge. Yet, from what I understand from the book... the Emperor has already sent Ferrus Manus and other primarchs to Istvan V before Magnus acted out and destroyed the Webway project?

I am reading this wrong? I know it's been eleven years since the book came out and it seems like much too obvious of a plot hole, so yeah... I'm probably reading this wrong. With that in mind, if anybody can shine some light on it, that would be great.

[Cheesegear]

He did it so Emperor could know Horus has turned to Chaos, giving Emperor the foreknowledge. Yet, from what I understand from the book... the Emperor has already sent Ferrus Manus and other primarchs to Istvan V before Magnus acted out and destroyed the Webway project?

I am reading this wrong? I know it's been eleven years since the book came out and it seems like much too obvious of a plot hole...

Until Horus slew Sanguinius, Dad thought his favourite son could be saved;

'Hey Dad, Horus is going to turn Evil!'
Yeah, I know. Don't worry about it.
'Hey Dad, Horus has turned Evil!'
Yep. All according to plan. I'll fix it when I get around to it. I'm busy. Can't one of the 17 other sons I have deal with it?
'Hey Dad, Horus is here to kill you.'
No worries, kid. I'll sort him out.

Magnus, doing what he did, served no purpose at all. That was why the Emperor was so mad.
Magnus ruined literally everything, to tell The Emperor what He already knew.
Good job breaking it, hero.

[Avaris]

I'm currently reading The Outcast Dead and I have some questions. I will not be marking anything, but there might be spoilers in here.

So we all know that Magnus breaching Emperor's Webway project was kind of a big deal. He did it with good intentions(wanting to warn Emperor of Horus' betrayal) and kinda ****ed everything up. Whether he was right in doing that is another topic altogether and one I imagine has been litigated to death and then some.

But as I understand it from Outcast Dead... was there really a point to Magnus pretty much screwing IoM for the next ten millenia? He did it so Emperor could know Horus has turned to Chaos, giving Emperor the foreknowledge. Yet, from what I understand from the book... the Emperor has already sent Ferrus Manus and other primarchs to Istvan V before Magnus acted out and destroyed the Webway project?

I am reading this wrong? I know it's been eleven years since the book came out and it seems like much too obvious of a plot hole, so yeah... I'm probably reading this wrong. With that in mind, if anybody can shine some light on it, that would be great.

I haven’t read the book, but if it is a plot hole not many people have picked up on it: the accepted timeline is that the Burning of Prospero was the year before Istvann. From my understanding of the content of the book, is it that the effects of Magnus’s actions are still being felt on Terra some time after they occured?

[Cheesegear]

I haven’t read the book, but if it is a plot hole not many people have picked up on it: the accepted timeline is that the Burning of Prospero was the year before Istvann. From my understanding of the content of the book, is it that the effects of Magnus’s actions are still being felt on Terra some time after they occured?

The effects of Magnus' actions are still being felt on Terra in M42.

Magnus is one of the main people responsible for the Imperium being the way it is.

[Drasius]

Magnus ruined literally everything, to tell The Emperor what He already knew.

The bit that *really* lights my fire is that Magnus doesn't even do that, he goes through all the effort, screws up everything, proves everyone right about him, and then doesn't do the ONE FREAKING THING THAT WOULD HAVE MADE IT WORTH IT! That's the ONE thing (the *other* one thing after the Sons keep being shown up by other psykers like they aren't the pre-eminant psykers when that's literally their schtick) I hate so very much about Thousand Sons (the HH book) is that little bit of retcon.

[Wraith]

So we all know that Magnus breaching Emperor's Webway project was kind of a big deal. He did it with good intentions(wanting to warn Emperor of Horus' betrayal) and kinda ****ed everything up. Whether he was right in doing that is another topic altogether and one I imagine has been litigated to death and then some.

But as I understand it from Outcast Dead... was there really a point to Magnus pretty much screwing IoM for the next ten millenia? He did it so Emperor could know Horus has turned to Chaos, giving Emperor the foreknowledge. Yet, from what I understand from the book... the Emperor has already sent Ferrus Manus and other primarchs to Istvan V before Magnus acted out and destroyed the Webway project?

I am reading this wrong? I know it's been eleven years since the book came out and it seems like much too obvious of a plot hole, so yeah... I'm probably reading this wrong. With that in mind, if anybody can shine some light on it, that would be great.

The bottom line is: Despite his great pride in how much knowledge he had accumulated and what great secrets to which he was privy, Magnus didn't know.

He didn't know that the Emperor had already been told about Istvaan, because he didn't know that the Eisenstein had survived and made it to Terra. He also didn't know what the Emperor was doing in his laboratory, Magnus didn't know about the Golden Throne, and he didn't know what he was breaking when he forced his way through the wards under the Imperial Palace.

"He was the most powerful sorcerer in the galaxy at the time, and also the second-most powerful psyker; surely if there was something mystical going on under the Imperial Palace, they would have told MAGNUS about it, wouldn't they? If they were really serious about keeping out eldritch attacks, they wouldn't have used wards and sigils that he could break so easily.... right?" </sarcasm>

All Magnus knew was that he had this secret, this piece of lore, and that he had the power to share it with the Emperor. That someone else - Garro - could have beaten him to it, or that something might happen that he couldn't control or understand, never occurred to him.

It's the great tragic irony of Magnus' fall; All along, all he had to do was 'nothing' and the Imperium of Man would have probably been okay. Stop using psykers in his Legion when he was told to, stop at the wards around the Palace, stop his Legion from fighting the Wolves, stop himself from fighting Russ, just stop assuming that he was the smartest and that he couldn't be surprised. He never sought damnation or the destruction of the Imperium, he stumbled blindly and proudly along the road that was paved with good intentions.... And we all know to where that road leads, don't we?

It might be a plot hole, but I think it's one that is conveniently covered by the fact that it's entirely within Magnus's character that he just couldn't imagine a galaxy where someone knew something that he didn't and he just HAD to show off and explain to everyone just how smart he was.

[Mystic Muse]

So his characterizatin in Text To Speech Device is _very_ on point then?

[Mordokai]

I haven’t read the book, but if it is a plot hole not many people have picked up on it: the accepted timeline is that the Burning of Prospero was the year before Istvann. From my understanding of the content of the book, is it that the effects of Magnus’s actions are still being felt on Terra some time after they occured?

From my understanding of the book, Istvann literally happened chronologically before Magnus breached the Webway. What you're saying here makes a lot more sense, but that was my reading of it. Granted, I was taking a lot of breaks in between reading it, so that may have contributed to me misreading something but yeah, that's the impression I got.

[Wraith]

So his characterizatin in Text To Speech Device is _very_ on point then?

"Your supposed psychic prowess only manifests when you're ****ing something up", I mean, harsh but true.

[Fyraltari]

All along, all he had to do was 'nothing' and the Imperium of Man would have probably been okay.

The Imperium was never okay and would never have been.

From my understanding of the book, Istvann literally happened chronologically before Magnus breached the Webway.

Something something the Warp something time-travel something something.

[Cheesegear]

From my understanding of the book, Istvann literally happened chronologically before Magnus breached the Webway.

Depends which book you read:
A Thousand Sons says Magnus happens after Davin's Moon, immediately after Horus' resurrection, when it happens.
Outcast Dead says Magnus happens after Isstvan V (not even III, lol...Magnus sucks and is way too late to change anything, which makes him even more stupid for breaking the Webway).

Hence this whole discussion. Davin's Moon makes more sense, because Outcast Dead would make him a moron. Still redundant. The Emperor knew, same as Magnus did.

He didn't know that the Emperor had already been told about Isstvan

As I said, nobody had to tell the Emperor anything.
He already knew. He just didn't care because it didn't affect his plans.

Magnus ****ed things up more than Horus did.

The Imperium was never okay and would never have been.

The Imperium would have been fine if The Emperor achieved his goal; True Enlightenment for Mankind and becoming Himself, obsolete.

Mankind did not achieve enlightenment.
The Emperor is not obsolete.

It started with Magnus - after Davin's Moon, not Isstvan V.
Lorgar made things even worse with his damn book.
But Lorgar could've also been stopped by Magnus, too, when Magnus had the chance.

Lorgar; Hey Magnus, I'm having these dreams and visions and stuff...
Magnus; **** off. You don't know what you're talking about.
Lorgar; Alright, I figure Chaos out on my own, without your help or guidance.
Magnus; Whatever. Can't you see I'm being a master of Chaos. You're not my problem. Ask Dad.
Lorgar; Dad called me ****. Alright. Cool beans. I'll burn it down...I'll burn it all down...Just like the visions said...Starting with Dad's Favourite...That'll show Him. They'll all see. Call me ****...**** you, Dad... Bye Magnus. See you 'round.
Magnus; Don't care, go way.
Several. Hours. Later.
Magnus; Wait. What!? LORGAR COME BACK. Uh oh...

Lorgar: Okay, Kor Phaeron. I know we had that fight and I ran off for a bit. But the brother I looked up to the most told me to go away, and my biological father told me I was basically his worst son. So I guess I'll come crawling back to you...Even though half the stuff you say seems pretty Evil and bad and I am very open to being manipulated by any father figure I can find.
Kor Phaeron: ...Excellent!

[hamishspence]

Depends which book you read:
A Thousand Sons says Magnus happens after Davin's Moon, immediately after Horus' resurrection, when it happens.
Outcast Dead says Magnus happens after Isstvan V (not even III, lol...Magnus sucks and is way too late to change anything, which makes him even more stupid for breaking the Webway).

Hence this whole discussion. Davin's Moon makes more sense, because Outcast Dead would make him a moron. Still redundant. The Emperor knew, same as Magnus did.

I believe the The Outcast Dead problem got resolved with "The Emperor partially contained the energy, but some of it burst out around Isstvan V, sparking the events of the book."

Because the Emperor's sending the Space Wolves to apprehend Magnus, takes place before Isstvan III does.

[Fyraltari]

The Imperium would have been fine if The Emperor achieved his goal; True Enlightenment for Mankind and becoming Himself, obsolete.

Can't reach any enlightenment through fascism. Just more dead people. The Imperium was doomed to fail in its claimed goals because it was build on nothing but murder and the lies of a megalomaniac.

[Cheesegear]

Can't reach any enlightenment through fascism.

Luckily, facism isn't the goal. Facism was a necessity because Chaos is real. Then, ideally, The Emperor absolves Mankind from its reliance on the Empreyan, and then sudoku's himself as he is no longer needed and Mankind guides itself through the stars.

The Imperium was doomed to fail in its claimed goals because it was build on nothing but murder

It was built on the spirit of cooperation and moving forwards throughout the stars; Exploration, discovery and enlightenment. The problem is that there were a lot of people - and aliens - who thought they knew better than the Emperor and kept getting in his way for a better future. They did not know better. Chaos is real. Could you stop feeding Chaos?

The Emperor was right. Mankind can't be trusted. They need someone at the helm until such time as they don't, and it's the Emperor's job to get them to that point.

and the lieas of a megalomaniac.

I don't recall the Emperor ever lying. I recall him blowing people off constantly and telling them to mind their own business. But I can't recall any lies. Not off the top of my head. You'll have to help me with that one. I'm not saying that the Emperor didn't lie. I'm just saying I don't know of any times he did, and as such I don't know what lie the Imperium was built off of.

Again. Emperor wasn't a melomaniac. At worst he was a benevolent tyrant, because again...Mankind can't be trusted. And every time Mankind ****s up - and they always do - Chaos wins that little more, and the Emperor loses that little more.

Chaos bad.
Mankind good.
Everything the Emperor did was weighed against those two principles.

[LeSwordfish]

I don't recall the Emperor ever lying.

Wasn't "chaos isnt real" one of his?

[Cheesegear]

Wasn't "chaos isnt real" one of his?

As always, it was more:

'What's Chaos?'
...Don't worry about it.
'No seriously. If you don't tell me what Chaos is, I have to look for myself.'
...If you look I have to kill you. No, no. I think you misheard. I have to.
'So how 'bout instead of killing me, you just tell me?'
No.

Magnus: Everything the light touches? ...What about that shadowy place?
Emperor: You must never go there. I don't care what else you do. Don't go there, specifically.
Magnus: *Goes to the Shadowy Place.*
Emperor: ...I told you...Leman Russ. Fix that problem that is definitely happening because Magnus went to the shadowy place that I definitely told him not to do.

...Of course everything turns to **** when it's revealed that The Emperor went to Molech to make the Primarchs. Which either:
a) Makes the Emperor a hypocrite,
b) Makes the Emperor stupid, or
c) Is just a retcon because the writers don't understand who The Emperor is, and made The Emperor do something He wouldn't ever actually do. He is called 'The Anathema' by Chaos for a reason.
...Or all of the above.

[LeSwordfish]

So where did "daemons are just wierd aliens" come from?

[Fyraltari]

Luckily, facism isn't the goal.

No, fascism was the method. And it never works, something someone as old as the Emperor should have known.

Facism was a necessity because Chaos is real.

Nonsense. The Imperium delivered its greatest champions to Chaos and has kept driving people into its "loving" embrace ever since.

Then, ideally, The Emperor absolves Mankind from its reliance on the Empreyan, and then sudoku's himself as he is no longer needed and Mankind guides itself through the stars.

Ah, yes the fascistic dictator will relinquish the absolute power he has taken for hismelf once the crisis has passed. Never heard that one before.

It was built on the spirit of cooperation and moving forwards throughout the stars; Exploration, discovery and enlightenment.

Like hell it was. It was built on the back of a warmachine send out to submit any human alive to the will of their Supreme Leader and murder everyone who would not bow to the foreign tyrant. It was built on hatred and a cult of personnality. It allowed scientific knowledge to be kept by a cult of self-loathing fanatics who regard creativity as a sin. It's vanguard was an army of children brutally operated on and indoctrinated into having no life but duty.
It hates anything different from itself, werher human or not and tolerates nothing but abject obedience to their living god who would not call himself one.

The problem is that there were a lot of people - and aliens - who thought they knew better than the Emperor and kept getting in his way for a better future.

No, the problem was that the Emperor thought he knew better than everybody else. "Clearly, people not knowing about Chaos is the best defense against Chaos. Konrad Curze and Angron don't need therapy, they need a million of unquestionning soldiers all able to level an average city by themself.
One of my core policy is anti-religion. That arch-priest and prophet over there is a deeply religious man. Let's give him a legion of fanatics and no supervision for a couple centuries."

The genius that is the Emperor

And that's just a few!

They did not know better. Chaos is real. Could you stop feeding Chaos?

Actually yes, turns out that genuine faith can
ward off Chaos. You know, the one thing the Emperor set out to stamp out?

The Emperor was right. Mankind can't be trusted. They need someone at the helm until such time as they don't

That's... That's the core tenet of fascism, you realize that?

and it's the Emperor's job to get them to that point.

Sonhe says, and what a wonderful job he's done!

I don't recall the Emperor ever lying. I recall him blowing people off constantly and telling them to mind their own business. But I can't recall any lies. Not off the top of my head. You'll have to help me with that one. I'm not saying that the Emperor didn't lie. I'm just saying I don't know of any times he did.

Really? How about telling people Chaos, gods and magic aren't real? How about having two of his sons executed (probably) and then erasing them from history? How about him betraying the Thunder Warriors?

Again. Emperor wasn't a melomaniac.

He set out to conquer the galaxy! He never listened to any objection because he thought he knew better than literally everyone! He built himself a palace the size of Asia! He had entire civilizations, including those who were doing just fine without him eradicated. He had entire species exterminated, he had entire planets burnt to a crisp. He installed a cult of personallity that makes the bloody Sun King look humble. He claimed to want to help mankind but he just made everything worse for everyone. He treated eveybody around him, billions of people as disposable tools he could do away with and did not once consider that they would object. Of all his, many, many flaws, hybris is the biggest and most obvious.

At worst he was a benevolent tyrant, because again

There us no such thing as benevolent tyrants. Just effective propaganda.

...Mankind can't be trusted. And every time Mankind ****s up - and they always do - Chaos wins that little more, and the Emperor loses that little more.

Chaos bad.
Mankind good.
Everything the Emperor did was weighed against those two principles.

No, no, "Chaos bad, Me good." That was the Emperor' mindset. If the emperor had any love for humanity, why does he seem to hate humans so much?

Like, fascism never works. You cannot organize society as a pyramid where everyone has to obey the people above absolutely and have it work for the masses. These systems always get worse.
Every failing of the Imperium is a direct continuation of the Emperor's philosophy. That should be obvious.

In the grim darkness of the far future, there are no good guys. Not the Imperium and certainly not the Emperor.