Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Wraith]

Am I the only one who remembers that the Interex were interbreeding with xenos? They had bat-ears and spoke in an ultrasonic language, for crying out loud.

Humanity d/evolving into abhumans was one of the points for launching the Great Crusade. The more that lost colonies diverged from the human genome, the more likely they were to become psykers and thus doom their entire planets. Allowing people to become non-humans in order to preserve humanity completely defeated the point.

Yes, before you mention it; Primarchs, Thunder Warriors, Space Marines and Custodes. They're sterile and/or had kill-switches built in to ensure they shouldn't take over as the dominant sub-species, almost like someone had thought about it ahead of time.

[Cheesegear]

Am I the only one who remembers that the Interex were interbreeding with xenos?

As others have pointed out; Erebus did it.

Interex: We're an advanced civilisation with knowledge of Chaos, and how to fight it. Let's negotiate with Horus. We are humanoid, after all with a standard genetic template. We shouldn't be killed. Let's talk about Chaos, Horus, and how we can help you fight it.

Erebus: ...Yeah, nah. I'm the hand of destiny and Horus can't be allowed to negotiate with the Interex.

When the Interex were blown off the face of the Galaxy, just remember; Chaos Always Wins.

[Saambell]

Yeah everyone claims the Interex could fight chaos, but a single chaos pawn snuck in and sabotaged a set of peace talks. Everyone acts like it was the Imperium who killed them but the only reason the Imperium killed them was because chaos stepped in and had a hand in it. The Imperium was just a tool.

Also, 30 systems is chump change, and 90% of what we know of them is all from a guided tour given by a political ambassador showing a foreign power exactly what the Interex wanted them to see. A huge chunk of everything we think we know of them could be entirely made up to impress/deceive their dangerous guests. If we shouldn't believe any of the Imperium lies, or the Tau's lies, why are people so intent on believing the Interex's lies?

[Lord Raziere]

I never claimed the Interex could fight Chaos.

I said they educated people on Chaos. And it WORKED.

They knew not to touch the bad stuff. The fact that they didn't have proper resources to realize their methods could be applied on a wide scale to defeat it, is a tragedy and apart of the grimdarkness. There was a chance never taken.

A better message, a better portrayal, I think than calling them weaklings for not winning the "has lots of planets/has supersoldiers" lottery, or calling them liars just because others couldn't measure up to their methods.

[Fyraltari]

Am I the only one who remembers that the Interex were interbreeding with xenos? They had bat-ears and spoke in an ultrasonic language, for crying out loud.

Humanity d/evolving into abhumans was one of the points for launching the Great Crusade.

Humanity evolving is not a bad thing, though.

The more that lost colonies diverged from the human genome, the more likely they were to become psykers and thus doom their entire planets.

Are you advocating for humans to interbreed with the Tau and other less psychic species?

Allowing people to become non-humans in order to preserve humanity completely defeated the point.

No, it doesn't. "Humanity" is just the sum total of human people. Humanity disappearing because all the humans got killed is bad, humanity disapearing because it branched out into different species is value-neutral. Hell, it's even positive if it makes them more fit to their environment.

Preserving humanity by having all humans be mindless factory-slaves and cannon-fodder, now, that defeats the point.

[Eldan]

We now interrupt this discussion of whether 40k succeeds as parody, for actual, real, official images from a GW game:

Spoiler

Show

The Ultramarine Recreator Squad.

It's canon.

[Wraith]

I said they educated people on Chaos. And it WORKED.

Only up to the point where Chaos actually started to take an interest in them, at which point one cultist sabotaged their entire civilisation. I think the Interex are an in-universe example of the Dunning-Kruger effect as applied to Chaos.

Humanity evolving is not a bad thing, though.

Absolutely not, you're right. But the problem is when they evolve randomly, or in ignorance of the potential side-effects. The Emperor, for all his faults, is the only 'human' who fully comprehends the threat facing humanity and what happens when one psychic individual breaks into the warp, and the Crusade was a race against time to prevent as many as possible from breaching the immaterium and dooming a world.

Humanity evolving is fine. Them doing it in unpredictable ways, before the Emperor had stabilised the galaxy by getting rid of as much of the warp as possible, is not.

Are you advocating for humans to interbreed with the Tau and other less psychic species?

If the alternative was fiery damnation and the obliteration of the species? Oh yeah, gene-resequencing, mass-cybernetics, whatever, I don't care. Absolutely not, Inquisitor.

No, it doesn't. "Humanity" is just the sum total of human people. Humanity disappearing because all the humans got killed is bad, humanity disappearing because it branched out into different species is value-neutral. Hell, it's even positive if it makes them more fit to their environment.

The Emperor disagrees. It's up for debate if this is just because he's hugely racist, or because he knows something about xenos that would spoil his plans for the Golden Throne. Possibly he's worried about accidentally breeding in psychic potential? Human x Eldar would seem to guarantee it, for example. Or maybe he's actually gone soft after living through the Age of Strife and the Unification War? He saw the sort of monstrous and grotesque stuff that human Warlords did to their subjects in the name of making soldiers and the likes, and maybe he refuses to go that far. The Primarchs were supposed to do their job and then get unalived/thrown into a gulag under the Imperial Palace, after all, and even the Space Marines weren't his first plan - he didn't want transhumans running the place under any circumstances.

Preserving humanity by having all humans be mindless factory-slaves and cannon-fodder, now, that defeats the point.

That wasn't the Emperor's plan, remember, he was all about the Age of Enlightenment and the Imperial Truth. Sure, working in factories and the Imperial Army sucked, but it was nowhere near the oppression that the Imperium imposed in His absence.

[Lord Raziere]

Only up to the point where Chaos actually started to take an interest in them, at which point one cultist sabotaged their entire civilisation. I think the Interex are an in-universe example of the Dunning-Kruger effect as applied to Chaos.

No it wasn't. They were succeeding.

I don't get why people are suddenly buying into Chaos propaganda that they're somehow invincible and inevitable. They're not. How powerful they are is overexaggerated and the sources that detail their greatest feats are old and should be taken with a mountain of salt. They're not actual principles of reality, they're not even universal entities. They're just big thought forms localized to the galaxy. The Tyranids can close off warp rifts and there is nothing they can do about it. Tzeentch failed to predict Roboute Guilliman coming back, Chaos can't do anything about the Necron Pylons for 60 million years, and their dreaded Chaos corruption can be stopped by an Admech priest cutting off connections fast enough. and without sufficient faith they degenerate into general warp-stuff forever.

Chaos is just as weak and pathetic as everything else in 40k. They are not the masters of the grimdarkness, they are not in control, they are just one of the players along for the ride.

[Fyraltari]

Only up to the point where Chaos actually started to take an interest in them, at which point one cultist sabotaged their entire civilisation. I think the Interex are an in-universe example of the Dunning-Kruger effect as applied to Chaos.

That's the same cultist who broke the Imperium in half, yes? Also, Erebus, a mole The Imperium failed to detect, seems more like a proof of the Imperium's failure ro deal with Chaos than the Interex's. The Interex didn't put the worm in the fruit, the Imperium did.

Also, Dunning-Kruger effect sounds like a good way to describe the "depriving the Chaos gods of worship will destroy-them-what-do-you-mean-they-feed-on-emotion" Emperor.

Absolutely not, you're right. But the problem is when they evolve randomly, or in ignorance of the potential side-effects. The Emperor, for all his faults, is the only 'human' who fully comprehends the threat facing humanity and what happens when one psychic individual breaks into the warp, and the Crusade was a race against time to prevent as many as possible from breaching the immaterium and dooming a world.

Humanity evolving is fine. Them doing it in unpredictable ways, before the Emperor had stabilised the galaxy by getting rid of as much of the warp as possible, is not.

Getting rid of as much of the warp as possible? First time I've heard of that. Also, the Eldar were psykers for sixty million years and it was fine for most of it. Sounds like the rush wasn't necessary. A properly trained psyker isn't a risk. Suppressing knowledge about magic and psychic powers is the dangerous approach.

The Emperor disagrees. It's up for debate if this is just because he's hugely racist, or because he knows something about xenos that would spoil his plans for the Golden Throne. Possibly he's worried about accidentally breeding in psychic potential? Human x Eldar would seem to guarantee it, for example.

No, I think the guy who wants humans to rule supreme over the galaxy is just a human supremacist.

Or maybe he's actually gone soft after living through the Age of Strife and the Unification War? He saw the sort of monstrous and grotesque stuff that human Warlords did to their subjects in the name of making soldiers and the likes, and maybe he refuses to go that far. The Primarchs were supposed to do their job and then get unalived/thrown into a gulag under the Imperial Palace, after all, and even the Space Marines weren't his first plan - he didn't want transhumans running the place under any circumstances.

Except himself of course.

That wasn't the Emperor's plan, remember, he was all about the Age of Enlightenment and the Imperial Truth. Sure, working in factories and the Imperial Army sucked, but it was nowhere near the oppression that the Imperium imposed in His absence.

Enlightenment? Pray tell, how was the Emperor about Enlightenment? Enlightenment is the philosophy according to which humans are all equals with unalienable rights and knowledge should be pursued wherever it leads. Does that sound like the warlord bimbing word into submission, leading troops of brainwashed mutilated children in violent frenzy and covering up the metaphysical reality of the universe while he sits as arbiter of everything in an empire where the subjects have no say in how their society is run? Because it got worse doesn't mean it was good in the first place.

[Wraith]

No it wasn't. They were succeeding.

Up to the point that they were weren't. And I'm not just saying that do be facetious; the Interex had never been properly tested by Chaos, just a few little wars and skirmishes here and there that ended up in a museum of old relics. You might as well look at somewhere like Monarchia who led wars against the Old Religion and say that the Imperium was succeeding against Chaos.

I don't get why people are suddenly buying into Chaos propaganda that they're somehow invincible and inevitable. They're not. How powerful they are is overexaggerated and the sources that detail their greatest feats are old and should be taken with a mountain of salt. They're not actual principles of reality, they're not even universal entities. They're just big thought forms localized to the galaxy. The Tyranids can close off warp rifts and there is nothing they can do about it. Tzeentch failed to predict Roboute Guilliman coming back, Chaos can't do anything about the Necron Pylons for 60 million years, and their dreaded Chaos corruption can be stopped by an Admech priest cutting off connections fast enough. and without sufficient faith they degenerate into general warp-stuff forever.

On the one hand, it's probably because of the "Chaos is born of human emotion" idea. The warp will always be there, but emotions shape it into what we call Chaos. The only way that Chaos will ever truly go away is if there are no more emotions driving it.

On the other, it seems to be one of those things that gets said a lot across various books and codices. Various people - Gideon Ravenor, Sanguinius, and a few others who I forget - have visions of a post-Imperium galaxy which has been burned clean of human life thanks to Chaos. One of them even says that it might be better for Horus to win the Heresy, because the sooner that Chaos triumphs the sooner it turns on itself and the Chaos powers start eating each other, and the sooner they do that then the more likely that normal humans might escape and hide until it's all over. The Imperial victory just means spending the rest of eternity in an endless, futile battle against Chaos that ends with the Dark Powers remaining united against a common enemy, which kills.... everyone.

A Tau-led galaxy might not be the worst idea, on reflection. Well, unless some disturbing ideas from the Fourth Sphere turn out to be true....

That's the same cultist who broke the Imperium in half, yes? Also, Erebus, a mole The Imperium failed to detect, seems more like a proof of the Imperium's failure or deal with Chaos than the Interex's. The Interex didn't put the worm in the fruit, the Imperium did.

If Chaos infiltrates the Imperium, and successfully turns the Imperium against the Interex so that they're wiped out, is that not Chaos' influence that ended the Interex? Just because insidious whispering into their ears didn't work, doesn't mean that other methods don't count, I feel.

Also, Dunning-Kruger effect sounds like a good way to describe the "depriving the Chaos gods of worship will destroy-them-what-do-you-mean-they-feed-on-emotion" Emperor.

Absolutely valid point. The Imperium also seemed to be winning the Great Crusade.... until Chaos.

Getting rid of as much of the warp as possible? First time I've heard of that.

Beg your pardon, I was paraphrasing. The goal of the Emperor and the Golden Throne/Infinity Gate was to remove humanity's reliance on the warp. By removing themselves from the warp as much as possible and denying the power of superstition (aka The Imperial Truth) the idea was to deprive the wapr of fuel and means of accessing humanity in order to influence it.

Also, the Eldar were psykers for sixty million years and it was fine for most of it. Sounds like the rush wasn't necessary. A properly trained psyker isn't a risk. Suppressing knowledge about magic and psychic powers is the dangerous approach.

Fine for most of it, until their civilisation imploded and their souls eaten. I feel this ties in to the argument above about Chaos being inevitable - it took Chaos 60 million years to 'wake up' to the Eldar, but they got there in the end. And now the Eldar are gone, so the Chaos Gods - fully awake/invigorated/whatever - have a taste for it and humanity is next on the menu. An expedited timeline might not be unreasonable, under the circumstances.

'Properly trained' is the key problem, here. The Imperial Truth didn't suppress knowledge of psykers, they were being picked up by the Black Ships and dealt with as fast as possible - the IT tried to suppress superstition about psykers, to stop people from dabbling with it and relying on charms and gewgaws to protect them.

No, I think the guy who wants humans to rule supreme over the galaxy is just a human supremacist.

Except himself of course.

Again, absolutely valid interpretations, too. More than one author has explored the idea, and as many have said that Chaos is the end of all civilisation and can't be stopped by half-measures.

Don't get me wrong, what I'm suggesting above is not meant to be me telling you "This is what the story definitely is", it's more like "here are alternatives that I think are likely from what i have read".

Enlightenment? Pray tell, how was the Emperor about Enlightenment? Enlightenment is the philosophy according to which humans are all equals with unalienable rights and knowledge should be pursued wherever it leads. Does that sound like the warlord bombing worlds into submission, leading troops of brainwashed mutilated children in violent frenzy and covering up the metaphysical reality of the universe while he sits as arbiter of everything in an empire where the subjects have no say in how their society is run? Because it got worse doesn't mean it was good in the first place.

My bad, I mistook Age of Enlightenment as being a 30k thing - I'm sure I've heard the general Crusade Era as being referred to as that, but it turns out what I was thinking of is the Age of Imperium.

The Imperials do refer to themselves as 'enlightened' early in the HH series, particularly around Horus Rises and False Gods, when the Imperial Truth was still being adhered to and scientific progress was still possible. Perhaps that si what I was thinking of.

[Fergie0044]

I don't get why people are suddenly buying into Chaos propaganda that they're somehow invincible and inevitable.

"I have won again, Lews Therin." suddenly came to mind...

[Saambell]

Having thought about it a bit more, I can actually see the Interex being right. The whole point of the Horus Heresy, especially the early books where we meet the Interex, is Dramatic Irony and Tragedy. I can thus see, from a narrative stand point, the concept that Interex was actually the best option. Them being the true best option for humanity, and then getting steamrolled by the Imperium after a Chaos mole broke down peace talks. It makes the story so much more tragic if the actual best option was wiped out early on before they could really get anywhere by a far worse option, that ends up crumbling itself. Cause in the books, the Interex and Horus were actually on the way to peace talks, with Horus either moving on around them, or actually allying with them. And this is back when Horus is basically in charge of the entire Great Crusade, when he is the shining beacon of hope for humanity. He saw them and wanted them to either join up or he would leave them alone. But right as he was about to make the choice, Erebus, maybe under Chaos direction, broke in and stole a relic, ruining the whole thing. And just a note, when he did that, the entire Interex army tried to murder their guests, even the ones sitting quietly at the embassy, so yeah, they were just as harsh and quick to kill as the Imperium is when they think Chaos is involved. To the point of when a bunch of Sons of Horus are trying to ask why they are being attacked and not yet really fighting back, the Interex just ignored their requests and kept attacking.

But yeah, it makes a lot more tragic sense to think that, if given a bit more time and room to grow, the Interex would have actually been Humanity's best choice in all this. As the tragedy goes, they got wiped out by a no where as good option before they could actually make a difference. Now, whether the lore exists to support this idea, I have zero clue. Just saying, from a story writing point, the fall of the Interex makes a perfect tragedy.

As a side note, Emps has been around since about 3000BC, and theres a solid 20,000 years between 30K and Nowish, where they did state that humanity was very active on the galactic stage, before the last Dark Age. Who knows if or what He tried before. I think there was a line somewhere where He said He had tried to be the shadow behind the throne, but when that kept failing, He took action cause things kept being messed up. Who knows, my little small bit of head canon is somewhere in the 20,000s Humanity did totally have a Star Trek Federation thing going, before that fell apart due to psykers and the various other species picked the remains clean kicking humanity to the curb. Would make sense Emps got His hate for non-humans and psykers somewhere, might be He tried the Collection of Races before, but it fell apart due to backstabbing and left humanity as prey once psykers ruined the warp. It also would slightly explain how the Human golden age of exploration could match up with when the Eldar were said to be the top dogs. Could be a whole number of other races banded together to either push them back or work with them. And then when Psykers broke the warp, and travel for everyone but the Eldar went real bad, they remained kings, then broke their own empire with their little messy parties. Would make sense that in the end, a brutal boot on the galaxy was the last ditch effort that Emps only did when everything else failed horribly, leaving him super holding a grudge at how when humanity fell apart, the other races just swooped in and either killed them, ate them, or enslaved them. Because again, NO ONE is good in Warhammer, just a whole pile of Jerks.

[Mystic Muse]

This thread is making everyone getting eaten by tyranids sound like the best option.

[Cheesegear]

The Ultramarine Recreator Squad.
It's canon.

I referenced that image twice as evidence that that GW, died a long time ago.

That image comes from 1994. Several things happened during 3rd and 4th Ed. - specifically Graham McNeill's Dead Sky, Black Sun (2004) - which changed 40K fiction forever. In 5th Ed. (2008), the fire nation attacked and everything changed.

If it comes before the mid-2000s...Yes, it might be canon. But no-one cares. That was more than 20 years ago. The future is now, old grognard.

The Emperor disagrees. It's up for debate if this is just because he's hugely racist, or because he knows something about xenos that would spoil his plans for the Golden Throne.

The Aeldari created Slaanesh. It's because of them that the Galaxy is ruined. That's all you need to know about Aeldari.

As a side note, Emps has been around since about 3000BC, and theres a solid 20,000 years between 30K and Nowish, where they did state that humanity was very active on the galactic stage, before the last Dark Age.

For the sake of the thread, let's recap some things:

Several thousand Years BC. The Warlord-who-would-be-Emperor and his Perpetuals, discover a monument to Chaos. Holy ****. This is it, boys. This is what we're up against, and we're going to spend our entire lives fighting...This. Yes. We're immortal. I did say our entire lives. You heard correctly. Ollanius demands the monument destroyed, The Warlord doesn't destroy it. Ollanius stabs The Warlord and runs off...Never to be seen again.

Emperor: Okay, plan.

The Emperor hides his power level for several millenia. He's not even active for the first 20,000 years of Humanity's development.

Age of Technology (M15<M22). Humanity reaches for the stars. Creating Warp Drives and Gellar Fields. The Emperor creates the Men of Gold. Ubermensch. They create the Men of Stone, a species of Humanity that are extremely resilient to the Warp. Good. Everything according to plan. As space travel become dominant, the Men of Gold were phased out (planned obsolescence), and the Men of Stone colonised a lot of space surrounding Terra and beyond. Mankind spreads thoughout the stars with the Men of Stone's help...After some time, the Men of Stone create the Men of Iron in their place...Wait. NO. STOP!!!! The Men of Gold, Stone and Iron are all phased out and are a Bad Idea. The Emperor needs a new plan. We got to the stars. We did it. Phase out the geneticially-engineered ubermensch. Humanity has to evolve on its own. You can't accelerate it.

Emperor: Okay, new plan.

Dark Age of Technology (M22<M25). Psykers emerge within Humanity. Necrons spiked the gene pool to make Blanks. Did the Aeldari spike the gene pool to make Psykers, as well? Was it a side effect of Warp-based space travel. Who knows. It was definitely not the Emperor's plan to have Psykers within Humanity. This is a terrible idea and bad and uh oh...With the uncontrolled psychic potential of Humanity unleashed, Demonic incursions became a thing, as did many, many, many Warp Storms. Also, Abhumans became a thing. With the Warp Storms, came logistical nightmares all across the galaxy...

Age of Strife (M25<M29) The Emperor is losing. Chaos is winning. Psykers, Abhumans and Warp Storms, oh my. With nothing going in or out of Terra, it becomes a bloodbath. The Emperor can no longer sit in his fiefdom, behind the scenes, constructing pocket segments of innovation and creation. Humanity is ****ed. Unless someone takes control. NOW. Maybe try genetic engineering again. But you learned from the mistakes from last time, right? You gotta have indoctrination. You can't leave 'em to their own devices. Power Corrupts. He creates Thunder Warriors and Custodes - with in-built indoctrination and kill-switches - and annihilates his way across the globe. Finally, in M29, becoming The Emperor, that we know.

Malcador: Well, boss. Psykers are part of Humanity now. It's out of your hands now. What now?
The Emperor: ...Okay...New plan...

The Emperor also starts rounding up psykers. Controlling or executing them as-needed.

To make it clear: There was no 'Emperor' before M29. Yes, he existed the entire time. But he was not The Emperor. From the start of the Dark Age of Technology, to the end of the Age of Strife, is about 10 thousand years. Most of us can't even comprehend that sort of timeframe. But I need the thread to know that after creating the Men of Gold, the Emperor basically didn't do anything for a long, long, long time. The Emperor was relatively benevolent...It's almost like something forced this very flawed character into something he didn't want to be...

The Birth of Slaanesh (M30). Towards the end(ish) of the Unification Wars. Right when The Emperor thinks he finally has control and can get this ****show back on the rails...Some ****en xenos race The Emperor either does or doesn't know about, decides to literally tear a new a**hole in the The Milky Way. While the Emperor has more or less been passively helping Humanity to get to their apotheosis...The Eye of Terror changes the game. The Emperor is no longer playing chess against himself anymore. The Emperor creates the Imperial Truth and tries to steer Humanity away from Chaos as much as he can, and keeping a very, very close eye on those who carry the Psyker-gene.

The Emperor: Okay, new plan.

Spoiler: Interlude

Show

Malcador: Boss, I've just had a terrible idea.
Emperor: What's that, then?
Malcador: You know all those Psykers we've been rounding up. What if...Hear me out...What if...We teach the strongest Psykers how to use the Warp as a weapon against itself. Kind of like how I used the Warp as a weapon during the Unification Wars and kicked the **** out of everyone except you.
Emperor: ...You want to train the strongest Psykers we've got, to use the Warp as a weapon?
Malcador: ...Yes, sir. Like me. You're the only reason that I didn't win the Unification Wars.
Emperor: ...And that wont go horribly wrong?
Malcador: Weeellll...You got any other ideas?
Emperor: ...Okay, new plan. I've just had a terrible idea. We teach people to use the Warp as a weapon against itself.
Malcador: Very good, sir.

Emperor: This is, without a doubt, the worst idea I've ever had. But I don't see any other options.
Malcador: *Shrugs, and moves the minute hand of the Doomsday Clock*

The Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. For the dozens and dozens and dozens of books that are written about it. In 40,000 thousand of what passes for Humanity's history, the Horus Heresy is only a few hundred. The Emperor, from the end of Unification, the Horus gutting him like a fish...Not that long. The Emperor didn't do that much, considering.

Spoiler: Interlude Part Two

Show

Malcador: So it turns out that teaching people how to use the Warp as a weapon ended very predictably. It's Edict of Nikea time.

Also Malcador: I'm not wrong though. I'm starting up the Titan Project and recruiting Psykers to be my secret agents.

The Last Primarch (M31). Dorn dies during Abaddon's first Black Crusade. With the death of the last Primarch, so too, does the Imperial Truth. Giving way to the Imperial Creed. Even amongst many Space Marine Chapters. Only the 1st and 2nd Founding Chapters really pay close attention to the Imperial Truth...Even then the Truth is breaking among the 1st and 2nd.
...Is it possible that the Emperor was wrong? If Chaos is real, why don't we try and reason with it, make a few deals...
*The Emperor, Rolling in His Throne:* 'FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...'
(Retcon: Turns out Vulkan is still around...Doing literally nothing. Thanks Vulkan. You ****.)

With all that out of the way. Let's discuss definitions:

The Imperium. The Imperium is bureaucratical and logistical nightmare. That requires trillions and trillions of people to run, let alone effeciently.
The Imperium. The Imperium during the Great Crusade has an active Emperor and ~20 Primarchs running the show, steering the ship. Things are getting done. You may not like the methods, but they are getting done.
The Imperium. The Imperium post-Scouring, post-Beheading has no guidance at all and has no clue at all what the Emperor's goals were, and just tries to maintain the status quo because they literally have no clue what to do, because it's argued that there's nothing they can do. Every time they fiddle with the Warp, it backfires. Every time they fiddle with Technology, it backfires. Every time they deal with Xenos, it backfires. There is no-one steering the ship, and the ship is sinking. Just in case in bears mentioning, the High Lords of Terra, have run the Imperium for longer than The Emperor ever did.

Imperium: Okay. New Plan. Guilliman'll fix it!
Guilliman: I don't think I can. You guys have ****ed it so bad it might not be recoverable.
The Emperor, in His Throne: ...It isn't. I tried. Believe me, I tried. Now I need someone to please kill me...End my misery, or let me achieve apotheosis. I'd prefer death though, if it matters.

The Emperor. Pre-Age of Strife. He didn't really do anything for at least 25 thousand years. It's not clear when he found the monument. But it was definitely a few thousand BC.
The Emperor. Age of Strife/Unification Wars Emperor is quite literally a monster. Not a Demon. But definitely a monster.
The Emperor. Post-birth of Slaanesh, is in a low-grade panic the entire time, and forced into making decisions he doesn't want to make, and effectively 'triaging' the Imperium itself.

[DataNinja]

The Aeldari created Slaanesh. It's because of them that the Galaxy is ruined. That's all you need to know about Aeldari.

Didn't the birth of Slaanesh end up calming the warp storms that kept humanity separated, thus allowing the Emperor to go out and try and re-unify humanity again in the first place? Because I'm pretty sure it was too turbulent for either travel or communication before the Fall.

[Avaris]

@Cheesegear hadn’t heard the detail that the Emperor created the Men of Gold before? I thought they were a detail purposefully left with very little detail.

Also, FWIW, the ‘Recreator’ squad were NEVER ‘official’ canon. They came out in Dragon magazine, a third party source.

[Cheesegear]

I thought they were a detail purposefully left with very little detail.

Eventually everything gets fleshed out, as 'vagaries' become plot holes. Plot holes are bad. You need to fill them in. Otherwise they become plot sinkholes and drag the whole story down with it.

Eventually GW will address Bellisarius Cawl. Because they'll eventually, inevitably, write a story where Cawl does something unexplainable, and they'll have to go back and point out what he was doing between M32 and M42, and explain how or why he's doing what he's doing.

Vague storytelling becomes bad storytelling, when so much of your setting is fleshed out.

If the Emperor is looking out for Mankind.
If the Emperor has been around the entire time.
How the **** did the Men of Iron happen!?
How did he let that happen!?
Is the Emperor stupid? 'Cause if the Emperor is actually stupid...

No. The Emperor is not stupid. He's one of the central and foundational figures of the setting. He can't be stupid. That's not allowed. Okay...Here's how the Men of Iron happened, on the Emperor's watch in two or three sentences. Good. We addressed it. The Emperor isn't dumb. Like usual, the Emperor created something he couldn't control and learned his lesson...

Also, where did Thunder Warriors come from?

...And now we have Thunder Warriors who got really mad that they didn't actually have autonomy.

Also, FWIW, the ‘Recreator’ squad were NEVER ‘official’ canon. They came out in Dragon magazine, a third party source.

Even better. We can stop referring to that picture as evidence for GW being 'clever', because that image never happened. Great.

[Zekestone]

Khorneboyz, a unit from the really old Freebootaz. Stormboyz who worship Khorne, I think their skin would actually turn red, though that might have been paint, and they would scrawl chaos runes on themselves. Disliked by normal Orkz for being Un-Orky, so they wound up dead or as Freebootaz who are more lenient towards being weird.

The freebooterz book not only had Khorne's Stromboyz but also Chaos Renegade Ork Warbands led by an Ork Champions of Chaos, and they could even get chaos gifts and mutations. The old Freebooterz book had a lot of weird stuff in it, but that was back in the day of the fun and whacky orks, before the game and setting got super serious.

[Wraith]

Didn't the birth of Slaanesh end up calming the warp storms that kept humanity separated, thus allowing the Emperor to go out and try and re-unify humanity again in the first place? Because I'm pretty sure it was too turbulent for either travel or communication before the Fall.

The build up to Slaanesh's birth was what caused the Age of Strife. Massive warp storms cut Terra off from its colonies and this is how they descended into barbarism, anarchy and all the other good stuff that the Great Crusade was designed to set right. Without Slaanesh, the Age of Technology would just have continued to grow from strength to strength and the human occupation of the galaxy would never have declined.

The birth itself allowed the Great Crusade to begin. The 'pregnancy' was what meant that the Great Crusade was necessary in the first place.

@Cheesegear hadn’t heard the detail that the Emperor created the Men of Gold before? I thought they were a detail purposefully left with very little detail.

Sources are vague and this is pretty much all that is known about them. The Men of Gold "appeared sometime during the Age of Terra, joining the Emperor as he watched and nurtured humanity". Whether he created them as in he physically grew them in a vat them using generic experimentation, or that he built them in the sense that he created the organisation called 'the Men of Gold' and invited people to join it, is unclear.

Given the phrasing as well as how the same source also specifies that the Men of Stone were artificially bred, the latter seems slightly more likely. Also, since the early Warhammer 40k lore is more-or-less a copy-paste of the Dune universe, the Men of Gold are supposed to be the Titans, I think? A radical group who split off from the Old Empire and started using more and more thinking machines (aka the Men of Iron) to run their worlds before things got out of hand and a great purge of AI (in Dune known as the Butlerian Jihad, in 40k it was the Cybernetic Revolt) took place.

Assuming that was about right, then the Men of Gold were a collected group rather than manufactured beings.

[hamishspence]

since the early Warhammer 40k lore is more-or-less a copy-paste of the Dune universe, the Men of Gold are supposed to be the Titans, I think? A radical group who split off from the Old Empire and started using more and more thinking machines (aka the Men of Iron) to run their worlds before things got out of hand and a great purge of AI (in Dune known as the Butlerian Jihad, in 40k it was the Cybernetic Revolt) took place.

Assuming that was about right, then the Men of Gold were a collected group rather than manufactured beings.

The problem with that, is that everything about the Titans was introduced in the Brian Herbert & KJA prequel novels, which began being produced after 3e's rulebook came out.

[Cheesegear]

Sources are vague and this is pretty much all that is known about them.

Sources are vague, but they're not subtle.

Also, since the early [...] 40k lore is more-or-less a copy-paste of the Dune universe...

Wraith, I like you...But WGAF?

Assuming that was about right, then the Men of Gold were a collected group rather than manufactured beings.

Okay. I avoided this. Partly because it has the potential to bring up board-unsafe conversation, and partly because I've already seen that some people in this thread can't separate art and/or fiction from real life. But since even they didn't even make the talking point, I have to assume that they just don't know. Because it's literally the first thing I'd bring up if I was trying to make the point:

The Emperor is heavily implied to have been a [badman from the World War After the First].
The Emperor loves genetics. He just ****ing loves it. He learned a lot.

'Suuure The Emperor was around during World War II. He loves doing...Things. But we wont tell you what side he was on...That's something you'll have to decide for yourself. WooOooo...*WINK. WINK. Spooky hands.*'
...Like I said. Vague. But not subtle.
(No. The Emperor was not [the final boss of Wolfenstein]. That's stupid...But have you heard about some boys...In Brazil? Who do we know who loves cloning?)

Sometime later, many, many generations into Humanity's Development, a new race of human appears. Not Mutants. Not Abhumans. Humans. The Men of Gold just so happen to appear with the man-who-would-be-Emperor. Now I don't know about you, but I imagine those Men of Gold looked a little something like this...

Spoiler: Artist's Rendition

Show

Now, I don't know what other people in the thread see...But I can pretty much draw a straight line between two points.
In post #854 I used a word. A pretty specific word. You can go back and look for that word. That's what the Men of Gold were.

Then for no reason at all I promise, the Emperor decided to make all his creations sterile, and/or have kill-switches, and let Humanity itself evolve at its own pace.
The Men of Gold were bad.
The Men of Stone were bad.
The Men of Iron, of course, were the worst. Because they literally weren't human anymore.

[Forum Explorer]

Didn't the birth of Slaanesh end up calming the warp storms that kept humanity separated, thus allowing the Emperor to go out and try and re-unify humanity again in the first place? Because I'm pretty sure it was too turbulent for either travel or communication before the Fall.

During the Age of Strife, yes. Also the Eye of Terror spent 10 000 years in a pretty stable state and only expanded due to the actions of Abbadon, who took some 13 crusades to pull that off.


Anyways plan time!

So the goal is beat Chaos? Nope! The goal is to preserve humanity as a species. Here's the challenges as I see them:

1. First off is Chaos. Either Chaos will seek to corrupt people via exposure, or people it has corrupted will attack your civilization. It is incredibly rare for Chaos to actually try and corrupt a civilization. It is more concerned with itself, and it's Eternal Game. Even the Eldar's Fall wasn't a deliberate ploy by Chaos. Regardless, so long as you have psykers, Chaos will tempt them into bargains. And even if a thousand psykers resist temptation, that's fine by Chaos. They have an eternity to try again with the next one.

2. Secondly is self destruction. This is civil wars and Men of Iron style disasters. The Age of Strife didn't really happen due to Chaos. That was the Men of Iron, mostly.

3. Third is destruction from the outside. Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, and Drukhari are all active and dangerous threats. Not to mention other alien species that went extinct during the Great Crusade.


So first thing, can we eliminate Chaos as a threat? Yes. There are two ways I know of:

1. Split humanity off from the warp: This would leave humans as listless husks barely capable of existing at all, and you could hardly call them 'human'.
2. Kill all aliens so only Humanity is powering the warp. Make sure humans don't hold any beliefs that could power Chaos. This is what the Emperor tried, and it really didn't work. Because it is nigh impossible, and trying got Chaos actively involved in bringing down the galaxy, something they almost never bother with.

Okay, so let's take a step back. How can you survive Chaos?
1. Use your own gods to protect yourselves -> That's doable
2. Use technology to ward it off -> Also doable
3. Limit how much can fall to Chaos at a time. -> Explain.

So the anti Chaos plan!
Point 2 is the easiest. Both the Aeldari and the Necrons already have the technology to fend off the Warp. They both hate Chaos. The Aeldari can likely be bargained with to share wards and runes to protect against Chaos, likely in return for persevering Maiden Worlds. The Necrons can be looted initially and see what humans can learn with the Blackstone they left around the galaxy. See if you can develop a much milder form of their pylons to provide some shielding against Chaos. Or perhaps weapons made out of Blackstone to fight Daemons.

Point 3 would happen from how you would set up the 'Imperium'. Basically you'd want it set up as separate minicivilizations that are mostly self sufficient. Basically if the Imperium was split up into dozens of Ultramars. Even if one Ultramar falls to Chaos, is destroyed, or attacks the others, the rest can either resettle it, or defeat it.

But a key part to that would be having control over space. Which I'm going to name the Unified Fleet. Basically no one mini-civ has an effective fleet, but contributes to one of many mega fleets that only answer to the central power (which in turn, can't intervene in internal affairs. Chaos would be defined as an external affair)

The Unified Fleet would also serve as extra bastions of human civilization. Not only would they rule over dozens of gigantic space stations (and hopefully, eventually Craftworld style world ships), but would also simply contain millions if not billions of people, and thus basically be civilizations in their own right.

Finally, as part of point 3, there would be no superhumans created. Because hilariously, Chaos Space Marines are a lot like the Men of Iron if you think about it. Created by man to wage their wars for them, and eventually turned on man, almost destroying their civilization. So limit humanity to humans. Oh, but aliens are actually alright in this 'Imperium'. There is no genocidal imperative. So long as they can work alongside humanity, they are welcome to do so.

So that's point 1, mostly. There is a bit more to come. See the weakness of it being broken up into mini-civilizations is a vulnerability to outside forces. Sure the Unified Fleets are supposed to protect each civilization equally, but would they? Or in other words, sure you are more resilient towards Chaos, but aren't you more vulnerable to Ork Waaghs or Hive Fleets?

Which brings us to point 1. Creating your own gods. Religion is a unifying force, and one that should be exploited so that each civilization would have that in common with each other, and thus also forming a common cause when fighting an outside invader. But what would this religion look like? Personally, I think it should be explicitly opposed to Chaos. The Church of Order, preaching peace, unity, and moderation. And in order to jumpstart the creation of the God of Order, all psykers will be indoctrinated into the church as clergy of the church. This also means the church is responsible for all interstellar communication and guiding the Unified Fleet.

But the key part is that psykers would be taken away to warded sanctuaries, with both Eldar wards, and maybe Necron blackstone, and taught the mental discipline to resist Chaos, and even fight it if they are deemed strong enough of will. The Astronomicon would likely still need to be made in order to aid navigation, but that's doable. On a related note, Blanks would be treated as holy matyrs/saints and would likely serve as the elite military arm of the Church of Order, as one of their primary duties would be to root out Chaos.

And hopefully the Church of Order would result in a warp entity which is opposed to Chaos, and would help protect humanity from it. With the end goal aiming to be something that is even more effective against Chaos than the Imperial Creed is.

So second point, namely Technology.

On one hand, yes, limiting technology to the Ad Mech means it is dramatically less likely to cause a second Men of Iron incident. On the other hand, it also screeches progress to a halt, and Humanity needs to surpass some pretty high bars technology wise. Solution? Science Spheres and a reform of the Ad Mech. For the Ad Mech, reforming them to explain the Machine Spirit as not something inherent to every machine, but as something that is formed after being used by thousands of times. Which is why cybernetics do not decrease someone's humanity. Their own soul forms the machine spirit of their new parts. And also how machines can be corrupted by Chaos. If a machine is used for corrupt purposes or by corrupt people, then the Machine Spirit formed would be similarly corrupt.

Science Spheres would be special space stations built in 'dead' systems, solar systems with no planets, or at least, no living planets. And preferably hostile in some way, (like a system formed around a black hole, or a pulsar, ect.) In these space stations experiments are basically unrestrained, barring AIs. Successful technologies would be shared freely with the Unified Fleets.

But the biggest point of reform would be convincing the Ad Mech that they can and should seek to replicate the miraculous technology of the past, instead of just trying to find copies of it throughout the galaxy.

And finally, Military Doctrine.

Which basically amounts to the belief that there is no foe that cannot be surpassed via technology, tactics, or force. As such brute force tactics would be frowned upon. Not forbidden, sometimes they are necessary. But discoraged. Tactics are held in high esteem, and every battle should seek victory with a minimum of casualities. Which also hits another point: Don't Rush. Sometimes you have to. Sometimes if you don't win right now, then the enemy will win. But often that is not the case. Don't rush things, and fight wars properly. Establish proper logistics, defensive lines, ect. And for pete's sake, establish proper space control.

Which also leads to equipment. Sure, the Lasgun likely still exists. Nigh infinite ammo makes for a useful gun. But also have elites in power armor and with bolters. If the Sisters can have them, so can other armies. Same with a bunch of the better Space Marine vehicles. There isn't really any reason a normal person can't use them. Even up to dreadnaughts. Proboaly not drop pods though. But you could do drop pods fill with automated turrets. Or perhaps with some nastier Ad Mech creations. Which speaking of; have those properly integrated with the military. No conflicting objectives on the battlefield. If you aren't on the same page, get off the field.

So in short:
1. Split humanity up into multiple civilizations that are working together. That way if one civilization falls, humanity itself can recover.
2. Actually work with aliens and their technology to gain access to anti-psyker tools
3. Have several super fleets and world ships, providing yet another back up for humanity to recover from, and to act as a rapid response force to protect the civilizations of Humanity.
4. Deliberately make a Church of Order, that is opposed to Chaos and welcomes psykers into it's ranks.
5. Reform the Ad Mech so they actually invent new technologies (and share them) and can acknowledge that machines can be corrupted.
6. Use force well. Just because you have trillions, if not more of soldiers doesn't mean you should spend them like candy.

[Mystic Muse]

Thanks for the post, Forum Explorer! I've been thought-experimenting how you would make 40k NOT absurdly grimdark, and that's a huge help.

[Drasius]

werdz

That's a lot of alphabet to say make Eldar 2.0

[Wraith]

The problem with that, is that everything about the Titans was introduced in the Brian Herbert & KJA prequel novels, which began being produced after 3e's rulebook came out.

Well ****, a franchise that cribbed from 40k instead of the other way around? That's only slightly less unlikely than them getting this far without being sued

The theory isn't perfect, I guess, but the Intelligent Machines came from the Old Empire, so it kind of works even if my guess at the specifics don't.

Wraith, I like you...But WGAF?

Nobody said anyone had to. I wasn't criticising, I thought it was neat and I like to see if I can draw out the parallels that still exist in the current lore.

Dune is a freaking huge universe, to coin a phrase. I don't pretend to know much of it, so I don't want to assume that others do and just go "Yeah, it's Dune but not" and expect folks to know what I'm referring to.

The Emperor loves genetics. He just ****ing loves it. He learned a lot.

Not saying you're wrong. Given what we know of the guy, odds are pretty good that if was horrible and it happened on Earth, the Emperor probably caused it in some way

However. There are just enough weird things happening that aren't his fault, which means it's not guaranteed. The Perpetuals, for example, are a weird and eldritch thing that happened and formed their own little Ancient Mystical Society, and although He was part of it he didn't invent them. Same goes for Malcador and the Sigilite Order, and the Mechanicus, and whatever gnarly stuff the old Ones set in motion before they got Necron'd in the face.

The book says the Men of Gold "appeared" and "joined" the Emperor. Contextually that can be read in more than one way. I'm just pointing out the possibility.

So in short:
1. Split humanity up into multiple civilizations that are working together. That way if one civilization falls, humanity itself can recover.
2. Actually work with aliens and their technology to gain access to anti-psyker tools
3. Have several super fleets and world ships, providing yet another back up for humanity to recover from, and to act as a rapid response force to protect the civilizations of Humanity.
4. Deliberately make a Church of Order, that is opposed to Chaos and welcomes psykers into it's ranks.
5. Reform the Ad Mech so they actually invent new technologies (and share them) and can acknowledge that machines can be corrupted.
6. Use force well. Just because you have trillions, if not more of soldiers doesn't mean you should spend them like candy.

All great ideas, and apart from 1 and 4 were more-or-less what the Emperor tried to do... So long as you count "stealing a webway gate and murdering everyone who might object" under using xenos tech. If only he'd explained it like that to someone else though, instead of being all mysterious and hiding under his mountain.

In modern 40k, the question becomes: How do you do all of this while also turning over 10,000 years of ingrained superstition and against the influence of embedded institutions who have a vested interest in staying rich and powerful? Guilliman has been at it for over 100 years and still hasn't made much progress.

[hamishspence]

Well ****, a franchise that cribbed from 40k instead of the other way around? That's only slightly less unlikely than them getting this far without being sued

The 3 Dune things that suggest that 40K's first writers at least had some interest in Dune, even if they weren't importing the whole thing.

The name "God Emperor" for a ruler
The name "lasguns"
The idea that "FTL requires not quite human pilots called Navigators to pilot ships safely"

[The Glyphstone]

Early 40k was sort of an unholy mishmash of not quite violating copyrights. It clubbed from Dune pretty blatantly, but was also borrowing bits of everything from Star Wars to Judge Dredd.

[hamishspence]

Sometimes the borrowing goes back and forth.

The Zerg are very Tyranid-like, but, the "split-jaw" look of many modern tyranids (beginning with the Ravener in 3e) was on Zerg before it was on Tyranids.

So, it could be said that Blizzard borrowed some Tyranid themes, but then GW borrowed some Zerg themes.

[BRC]

Sometimes the borrowing goes back and forth.

The Zerg are very Tyranid-like, but, the "split-jaw" look of many modern tyranids (beginning with the Ravener in 3e) was on Zerg before it was on Tyranids.

So, it could be said that Blizzard borrowed some Tyranid themes, but then GW borrowed some Zerg themes.

I thought I heard somewhere that Starcraft, in it's earliest conceptions, started as a W40K game (The Terrans as Space Marines, Protoss as Eldar, Zerg as Tyranids), but that might be fake. The common concepts (Big Bulky Power Armor, psychic powers, hivemind space bugs, psychic hyper advanced aliens) are all pretty common sci-fi tropes.

[Fyraltari]

I thought I heard somewhere that Starcraft, in it's earliest conceptions, started as a W40K game (The Terrans as Space Marines, Protoss as Eldar, Zerg as Tyranids), but that might be fake. The common concepts (Big Bulky Power Armor, psychic powers, hivemind space bugs, psychic hyper advanced aliens) are all pretty common sci-fi tropes.

Are you perhaps thinking of the urban legend that WarCraft started as a Warhammer Fantasy Battle video game? Because that's the one I'm familiar with and it's not true.