Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Eldan]

The 3 Dune things that suggest that 40K's first writers at least had some interest in Dune, even if they weren't importing the whole thing.

The name "God Emperor" for a ruler
The name "lasguns"
The idea that "FTL requires not quite human pilots called Navigators to pilot ships safely"

And the ban on AI, though that may not have been in early, early 40k. The Admech were around since at least 2nd edition, though.

[BRC]

Are you perhaps thinking of the urban legend that WarCraft started as a Warhammer Fantasy Battle video game? Because that's the one I'm familiar with and it's not true.

That's probably what I'm thinking of, although if I had to pick a fake story, the Starcraft one seems more likely than Warcraft.


Edit: Now I'm wondering, what is the most "Original" concept in 40k?

Like, everything is just mixing influences and cribbing from other franchises. 40k itself is blatantly slapping a sci-fi coat of paint on a lot of fantasy tropes, but what's a genuine cool Concept that you can call a uniquely 40k Thing.

[Eldan]

The Mechanicum is relatively original? There's a bit of Canticle for Leibowitz in there, but it's not that close.

[Forum Explorer]

That's a lot of alphabet to say make Eldar 2.0

Aiming to be Pre-Fall Eldar is a pretty good goal.

All great ideas, and apart from 1 and 4 were more-or-less what the Emperor tried to do... So long as you count "stealing a webway gate and murdering everyone who might object" under using xenos tech. If only he'd explained it like that to someone else though, instead of being all mysterious and hiding under his mountain.

In modern 40k, the question becomes: How do you do all of this while also turning over 10,000 years of ingrained superstition and against the influence of embedded institutions who have a vested interest in staying rich and powerful? Guilliman has been at it for over 100 years and still hasn't made much progress.

But the Emperor broke the most important rule: Keep everyone human. Space Marines are a very effective tool, but hey guess what? So were the Men of Iron. There was never a reason for the Space Marines to not turn against humanity and their loyalties were often went: Primarch - Their Chapter - The Emperor - Other Chapters - Humans. And in the end they were only slightly more resistant to Chaos than humans, and much more difficult to deal with after being corrupted.

And the Primarchs are even worse. Kept isolated from humans (basically the only people around them were Marines), a much wider range of emotion, and basically forced into leading wars, even if that wasn't really what they wanted to do. In retrospect, I'm surprised only half of the primarchs fell to Chaos.



Oh, modern 40K is just a mess. I don't think you can just 'fix it' at this point. And I don't think humanity can afford to change its ways. It just has to somehow beat Abbadon and his marines, stop whatever plans the Daemon Primarchs have, not lose too much to Drukhari raids, destroy the Tyranid Hive Fleets, and somehow fend off any Ork Waaaaghs.

After that we can talk about reforms. Afterall there's no point in doing renovations when your house is on fire.

[JNAProductions]

So, this is entirely unrelated to the current talk, but I recently picked up the Genestealer Cult Codex, and I was wondering, if I was to custom-make some Twisted Helix Aberrants, what would be a good face-type-thing to go with?

Like, I do NOT have the 3D-modeling skills to make a good face. Would some kind of rebreather thing work for the Helix?

[hamishspence]

Edit: Now I'm wondering, what is the most "Original" concept in 40k?

Like, everything is just mixing influences and cribbing from other franchises. 40k itself is blatantly slapping a sci-fi coat of paint on a lot of fantasy tropes, but what's a genuine cool Concept that you can call a uniquely 40k Thing.

I'd say the Astronomicon is pretty high up there - a psychic beacon and reference point that burns out many psychics every day. Dune has navigators, but nothing exactly like the Astronomicon.

[Grim Portent]

So, this is entirely unrelated to the current talk, but I recently picked up the Genestealer Cult Codex, and I was wondering, if I was to custom-make some Twisted Helix Aberrants, what would be a good face-type-thing to go with?

Like, I do NOT have the 3D-modeling skills to make a good face. Would some kind of rebreather thing work for the Helix?

The Helix's strength and weakness from a visual perspective is that they can look hugely divergent from a 'normal' genestealer cult because a lot of them are vat grown monsters or the subjects of horrifying experiments rather than creatures born as hybrids.

So Aberrants, and the Helix in general, could draw on a lot of horror cliches for visual cues for custom models. Surgical masks, wrack style iron masks/cage helmets, skin peeling off their own face obscuring their features, breathing apparatus, facial implants, Hannibal Lector style muzzles. Their fluff gimmick is medical/eugenics horror, so I would go for something that gives an old fashioned asylum vibe if possible.

[JNAProductions]

The Helix's strength and weakness from a visual perspective is that they can look hugely divergent from a 'normal' genestealer cult because a lot of them are vat grown monsters or the subjects of horrifying experiments rather than creatures born as hybrids.

So Aberrants, and the Helix in general, could draw on a lot of horror cliches for visual cues for custom models. Surgical masks, wrack style iron masks/cage helmets, skin peeling off their own face obscuring their features, breathing apparatus, facial implants, Hannibal Lector style muzzles. Their fluff gimmick is medical/eugenics horror, so I would go for something that gives an old fashioned asylum vibe if possible.

Gotcha. Thank you! :)

[Fyraltari]

That's probably what I'm thinking of, although if I had to pick a fake story, the Starcraft one seems more likely than Warcraft.


Edit: Now I'm wondering, what is the most "Original" concept in 40k?

Like, everything is just mixing influences and cribbing from other franchises. 40k itself is blatantly slapping a sci-fi coat of paint on a lot of fantasy tropes, but what's a genuine cool Concept that you can call a uniquely 40k Thing.

I'd say the Orks, ironically enough. These aren't "noble savages" or "faceless minions of the dark lord", they're the vanguard of an agressive ecosystem of half a dozen species, designed as a weapon by an extinct race of alien gods who understand only violence to the point that it permeates everything about them, can bend reality to a degree and are, to a fault, batspit insane. Also, they talk like football hooligans

They're pretty unique.

[BRC]

I'd say the Orks, ironically enough. These aren't "noble savages" or "faceless minions of the dark lord", they're the vanguard of an agressive ecosystem of half a dozen species, designed as a weapon by an extinct race of alien gods who understand only violence to the point that it permeates everything about them, can bend reality to a degree and are, to a fault, batspit insane. Also, they talk like football hooligans

They're pretty unique.

This was my go-to, along with the Admech.

Like, the Orks themselves are not particularly unique. They're just a sci-fi take on the generic barbarian fantasy horde, put through a few additional layers to really make them Nothing But Fighting so as to bypass any moral ambiguity when it comes to blowing them away.

"Hostile Alien Ecosystem" has been done before, the Tyranids are about as boilerplate an example as one can find. Not much of the Fiction really leans into it, because the Orks work just fine as Generic Hostile Aliens With Some Weird Biology. The idea of the Orcs as an Ecosystem doesn't really get explored except as an excuse for why Orks are basically the same across the galaxy. The idea of an Ecosytem that manifests as a Civilization, even a pretty basic and unsophisticated one, is interesting. Warhammer 40k isn't exactly the setting to best explore it, but there's a genuinely intriguing sci-fi concept there.



After that, the AdMech stick out as a pretty original concept. My main issue with the Admech from a lore perspective is that, with the level of control they're shown to have over all technical fields, the idea of the Admech as a faction somewhat apart from the rest of Imperial society doesn't really work. It doesn't help that everybody likes to show all Admech members as being cyborged up Techpriests.

I could see it if either 1) The Admech control higher-level technology. Basically, anybody with an Engineering or advanced sciences degree is an inducted member of the Mechanicus, but most mechanics, electricians, plumbers, ect that make industrial life possible are ordinary citizens (Who may have learned their trade from a Techpriest, but are not really organizationally Part of the Mechanicus).

Or
2) The Adeptus Mechanicus was portrayed as a looser organization, one that could more easily integrate with the rest of Imperial society, with Techpriests living mostly as ordinary citizens.

But as it is, most of the fiction I've seen portrays everything as being done by Techpriests, and every Techpriest being, well, a Priest, or at least akin to a monk, somebody who has totally devoted their life to the Mechanicus, and is mostly part of this parallel society.

I can't imagine even a highly devout society generating enough Monks such that your average citizen can find one to take a look at their car when it starts making an odd noise, much less a society with a different Dominant State Religion that barely tolerates the Machine Cult.


I love the idea of the Mechanicus, but the idea that, basically, every aspect of Imperial society has a parallel branch of the Mechanicus that enables it doesn't really work for me. It feels like the Imperial Navy should owe more allegiance to Mars than Earth. I get the whole "Plasma Drives alongside manual work crews" aesthetic is a thing, but, like, what portion of your starship crew can you afford to NOT know how to do Mechanical Stuff.

[Lord Torath]

And the ban on AI, though that may not have been in early, early 40k. The Admech were around since at least 2nd edition, though.

I know they had robots with AI in Rogue Trader (aka 1E WH40k), but I don't recall which book they were in. I recall there being something like a flow chart you used when determining how they responded in combat.

[hamishspence]

Apparently it was White Dwarf 104 (1988) that had the info on the Legio Cybernetica, going by the Index Imperialis: Apocrypha book.

The description suggests that they're pretty dim.

[Wraith]

The 3 Dune things that suggest that 40K's first writers at least had some interest in Dune, even if they weren't importing the whole thing.

The name "God Emperor" for a ruler
The name "lasguns"
The idea that "FTL requires not quite human pilots called Navigators to pilot ships safely"

There's a few more that I can think of. The Sigilite Order, Power Weapons and neuro-weapons, Planetary Governors, the Cybernetic Revolt (and thus, Men of Iron), the pre-war Old Empire,... They're all based on something that was famous in Dune, if not heavily taken and re-used in later media too.

Early 40k was sort of an unholy mishmash of not quite violating copyrights. It clubbed from Dune pretty blatantly, but was also borrowing bits of everything from Star Wars to Judge Dredd.

Likely because GW, at that point, owned the license for the Judge Dredd board game and miniatures. I can't say they were re-using assets and artwork for their own IP, but given the incredibly niche appeal of mini's back in the 1980's and utter lack of internet, it seems likely even before one takes a look at early Space Marine artwork that was later more-or-less turned into Adeptus Arbit

Edit: Now I'm wondering, what is the most "Original" concept in 40k?

Orks are just Space Orcs, stolen from Tolkien and/or repurposed from WFB.

Tyranids are Aliens from the eponymous movie. Especially since 4th edition when the new minis range was launched and they have the eye-covering carapace look.

Necrons were just The Terminator that later got 'Khemri' bolted on to them. And in the early days, even that much fluff is me being generous.

Tau were Gundam. If anything they have gotten a little more unique over time as they branch into their own stuff, but not by lots.

Eldar are Space Elves (more Tolkien) mixed with a little bit of Vulcans.

Dark Eldar are Space Dark Elves.

"Space Marines" first appeared in common parlance in the 1930's. Making them bigger and sillier in the early 1990's was a very 'early 1990's' thing to do, but on the other hand the specifics of how they're made and what goes into them is unique in how comprehensively explored it is.

Chaos Space Marines are the Anti-Paladins of the 40k universe.

Daemons are getting there - at least they're not Earth, Air, Fire and Water themed. Again, simply how much has been said about them is in their favour, most comparable settings go as far as "they're evil, fighting everything including each other and are from Hell" and call it a day.

Genestealer Cults are what happens when an Alien lands in Innsmouth, but in Space. It's not quite Invasion of the Body-Snatchers, so it's at least an interesting mix if not a completely unique one.

Imperial Knights? Let me tell you about a little thing called Battle-Tech.

Custodes are either really good, or really bad, depending on how you feel about them. Super-super-soldiers sounds dumb, and it kind of is.... But I'm hard pressed to think of another setting which included a force of comparable scale.

The Mechanicum are similar to Genestealer Cults - individual parts of them had existed for years, mostly in the Cyberpunk community and books like Neuromancer, but collected into one place? An unusual mash-up, if nothing else.

Exterminatus? Done in the Transfomers cartoon.
Cadian Pylons? Dark matter, and cribbed from WFB (obsidian doing virtually the same thing)
Blackstone Fortress? The Death Star. Or possibly Ringworld.
The Warp? Hyperspace, with the name stolen from Star Trek.
Grimdark? The Dork Age of comic books.
Necromunda? Mad Max.
Mordheim? Mad Max as written by Tolkien.
Titanicus? Battle-Tech.
Battlefleet Gothic? Maybe, a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....
Aeronautica Imperialis? Ha!
Blood Bowl? Tolkien again, but instead of war they have rugby? I mean, it's a crack-tastic mash-up that normal people wouldn't have thought to put together.....

Chainsaw Warrior? A single player card game wherein the player has to navigate a randomly-generated maze, dice-fight monsters, and race against time to- oh no, wait, we were founded by Ian Livingstone weren't we? Never mind.

I'm being ungenerous, I know. Nihil nove sub sole, and all that, and I'm certainly not saying that GW haven't taken these tropes and done them better than their originators, in quite a lot of cases.

Also, they talk like football hooligans

Another Tolkienism, I'm afraid. Hobbits are nice, gentle, country gentlemen and Orcs are Cockneys; The Lord of the Rings is an allegory for class war in 1940's Britain

[Drasius]

Aiming to be Pre-Fall Eldar is a pretty good goal.

Considering pre-fall Eldar are basically Dark Eldar with some of the spikey bits removed, I'm not sure I agree with you there.

[Forum Explorer]

Considering pre-fall Eldar are basically Dark Eldar with some of the spikey bits removed, I'm not sure I agree with you there.

Pre-Fall Eldar is a massive group. So before they go all murder crazy is what I meant. Complete control over the galaxy, nothing to fear from Chaos, and able to terraform planets, by-pass the warp, and even move stars around. They didn't become degenerates until after they achieved all of that.

[Cheesegear]

...Stuff.

There's a lot of words here. I'll respond to it at some point.

But I think the killing point of the Imperium was Old Night; The Age of Strife. You need to make that, not happen. You need to make Psykers happen in a controlled setting. Psykers happening during Old Night was about as uncontrolled as you can get. With Old Night, came uncontrolled Chaos. You can't put that back in the bottle. You need more Sisters of Silence.

Dune is a freaking huge universe, to coin a phrase. I don't pretend to know much of it, so I don't want to assume that others do and just go "Yeah, it's Dune but not" and expect folks to know what I'm referring to...

I wasn't coming at the Dune reference. Nor the 2000, A.D. reference, nor the John Carter of Mars references...Nor the...Literally anything.

My issue is more people saying;
[X] was like this.
[Y] was like this.
[Z] is pretty vague, you can make up your own interpretation.

I know we're old.
But at this point Rogue Trader is over 30 years old, and 2nd Ed. ended in 1998 - over 20 years ago.

Things have...Changed. They're called Aeldari now.

It's fine to say that Navigators are a Dune reference...But then I looked in my Rogue Trader RPG book, and like...No. Maybe there's a Navigator or two that's a fish in a jar. But the vast majority of Navigators don't share any similarities with their Dune counterparts except for the name.

> Be me.
> Haha. That's so cool that Gabriel Seth told Gulliman to f*** himself and take his Primaris Marines and shove it.
> Scratch that. In less than six months that's changed.
> Keep complaining.

Over time, we learn more about The Emperor. Over time, we actually have him walking around, we know his motivations. Holy ****. GW is actually writing his actual backstory, like, what he was up to before the Unification Wars. The Emperor is no longer a myth...He's a man.

...Maybe a writer makes a reference to M2 Earth.
...Maybe a writer makes a reference or two to Old Night.
...Maybe a writer makes a reference...To very shady things the Emperor did in the past that we can actually relate to and draw conclusions from.

Are those throwaway sentences written out, in full, on wikis? ...No. Scenes aren't even written out on wikis.

'And then [X] confronted [Y].' ...Gonna elaborate on that? No.
'Camba Diaz died defending a bridge from a swarm of enemies.' ...That's what happened, yes. But, also no, that's not what happened.

Some author goes:
'Hey Editor, has anyone ever written a book about [X].'
- No, that detail was intentionally left vague.
'So...No?'
- I guess not. Pitch your story.
'Well, instead of it being vague...I flesh it out entirely. Since it is vague, there's no conflicting canon that will mess up what I want to do, right?'
- ...Does that matter?
'Guess not. Here's my story full of additions and retcons.'
- Looks good to me!

My point is, basically, that canon changes. What you thought was true at one point, might not be true anymore.

'40K is a lol!parody of sci-fi tropes.' ...Is it? I read Path of Heaven. It doesn't feel like a parody of anything. It reads like a real novel.* It doesn't feel like parody when Dorn says to Sigismund; 'If you do [this], you're not my son anymore.' Holy f**.
'The Emperor is supposed to be a mysterious figure. He's basically a God, so it would be silly for him to take part in any narrative.' ...Oh okay.
'Primarchs will never come back into 40K. They're figures of legend designed to inspire you about what Space Marines once were and could be again.' Scratch that.
'5th Ed. was a good edition.'
'Some Chapters refused the addition of Primaris Marines.'

Y'know. All the dumb stuff that people say that just isn't true anymore.

*I can't think of any Heresy novel I rate higher than 'Path' off the top of my head. If I actually went back I could probably rate something higher than 'Path' if I had to. But it springs to mind immediately. Anecdotally, I know some people (yes, plural, more than one) who cried while reading 'Betrayer'.

Aiming to be Pre-Fall Eldar is a pretty good goal.

Ignoring that Pre-Fall Aeldari leads directly to Fall of the Aeldari. So maybe they did something wrong?
Again, I have things to respond to.
I'll get to it.

And the Primarchs are even worse. Kept isolated from humans (basically the only people around them were Marines), a much wider range of emotion, and basically forced into leading wars, even if that wasn't really what they wanted to do. In retrospect, I'm surprised only half of the primarchs fell to Chaos.

The Primarchs were supposed to fall into infighting and kill each other, and wipe themselves out. Unfortunately, some of the Primarchs hated The Emperor, more than they hated their brothers, which was not The Plan. The Primarchs who hated each other, were able to unite against a common enemy. Not The Plan.

Oh, modern 40K is just a mess. I don't think you can just 'fix it' at this point.

Guilliman says as much.
The only thing that can save The Imperium is the second coming of The Emperor, and the modern!Imperium will not like it if that happens. Guilliman knows his Father.

[Forum Explorer]

There's a lot of words here. I'll respond to it at some point.

But I think the killing point of the Imperium was Old Night; The Age of Strife. You need to make that, not happen. You need to make Psykers happen in a controlled setting. Psykers happening during Old Night was about as uncontrolled as you can get. With Old Night, came uncontrolled Chaos. You can't put that back in the bottle. You need more Sisters of Silence.


Ignoring that Pre-Fall Aeldari leads directly to Fall of the Aeldari. So maybe they did something wrong?
Again, I have things to respond to.
I'll get to it.



The Primarchs were supposed to fall into infighting and kill each other, and wipe themselves out. Unfortunately, some of the Primarchs hated The Emperor, more than they hated their brothers, which was not The Plan. The Primarchs who hated each other, were able to unite against a common enemy. Not The Plan.

Looking forward to it.

I'd disagree with that. You can control psykers (IE make that controlled environment) so long as they aren't guarded by a whole army of Chaos.


Probably, but I don't think it happened on the path to the top. Their decline happened after hitting the top, not as a result of getting there.


Look, it's a bad plan. Also for the record, just because something is made out of flesh instead of metal doesn't mean it isn't an AI.

[Cheesegear]

You can control psykers (IE make that controlled environment) so long as they aren't guarded by a whole army of Chaos.

The Warp Storms that separated entire Sectors, Systems and Planets from one another for several thousand years?
Psykers and Abhumans evolved outside of anyone's control for those several thousand years.

I don't know if you addressed it. But The Age of Strife is a big problem, and it was the Age of Strife that made the Emperor put his foot down.

Unless you want The Emperor to get involved with Humanity much, much, much earlier than he actually did.

Also for the record, just because something is made out of flesh instead of metal doesn't mean it isn't an AI.

'I absolutely want Humanity to have Free Will. It's a big deal. But I also need them to stop making terrible decisions.' - The Emperor, probably.

[Forum Explorer]

The Warp Storms that separated entire Sectors, Systems and Planets from one another for several thousand years?
Psykers and Abhumans evolved outside of anyone's control for those several thousand years.

I don't know if you addressed it. But The Age of Strife is a big problem, and it was the Age of Strife that made the Emperor put his foot down.

Unless you want The Emperor to get involved with Humanity much, much, much earlier than he actually did.



'I absolutely want Humanity to have Free Will. It's a big deal. But I also need them to stop making terrible decisions.' - The Emperor, probably.

Is The Age of Strife a big problem though? It is perfectly possible to go around and wrangling up those psykers and abhumans, and killing the ones that are too corrupted. We know because the Emperor did it and the Imperium still does it now. And they missed and miss tons of psykers all the time and those psykers weren't the cause of the galaxy being split in half or the Horus Heresy. Lots of planets did fall apart during the Age of Strife due to psykers because they didn't know how to handle them properly.


The Emperor makes plenty of horrible decisions too. But I suppose he's only human.

[Cheesegear]

This is a doozy.

During the Age of Strife, yes. Also the Eye of Terror spent 10 000 years in a pretty stable state and only expanded due to the actions of Abbadon, who took some 13 crusades to pull that off.

Irrelevant. The Emperor doesn't have that kind of foresight. The Emperor thought that the Eye of Terror was going to swallow Humanity...Tomorrow - hence the Great Crusade, and the mad rush. The Eye of Terror didn't eat the Galaxy immediately. But that's 'cause The Emperor got lucky. I'll explain that later.

1. First off is Chaos. Either Chaos will seek to corrupt people via exposure, or people it has corrupted will attack your civilization. It is incredibly rare for Chaos to actually try and corrupt a civilization.

In order to corrupt an entire civilisation, you just have to corrupt the guy at the top. You just have to corrupt operators behind the throne. Which is exactly what Chaos does.

We were talking about the Interex. Erebus brought down their entire civilisation.
Erebus was instrumental in corrupting Fulgrim.
Erebus made Kharn.
Erebus brought down the Luna Wolves, and then Horus himself, and then by extension the entire Imperium.

Kor Phaeron broke Lorgar. Lorgar broke the Galaxy.

Chaos not a single entity. Chaos is a complex web of cause-and-effect with a trillion possible outcomes...And all's you have to do is pluck the right strand to make all the dominos fall down.
Aeldari Farseers, are called Far See-ers, because all's they do is look at that web.

You might call it...Chaos Theory.

2. Secondly is self destruction. This is civil wars and Men of Iron style disasters. The Age of Strife didn't really happen due to Chaos. That was the Men of Iron, mostly.

The Men of Iron didn't cause the Age of Strife.

Warp Storms did.
The emergence of Psykers did.
Did human evolution cause the Warp Storms? Or did the Warp Storms cause human evolution? We do know, however, that Chaos got a firm grip on Humanity's steering wheel during the Age of Strife.

Third is destruction from the outside. Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, and Drukhari are all active and dangerous threats. Not to mention other alien species that went extinct during the Great Crusade.

If you're going to bring up the Great Crusade; Then Tyranids and Necrons don't exist yet.

Secondly...Does Fulgrim get to chat with Eldrad? If Fulgrim gets to chat with Eldrad, any (overt) reasoning with the Aeldari is off the table, because Fulgrim starts Exterminatus'ing Aeldari worlds, and then it's game over for that alliance:
- Eldrad tries to kill Fulgrim because he knows he's corrupted by Slaanesh.
- Fulgrim tells everyone - including Dad - that Eldrad just totally tried to kill him for no reason, honest, and the Aeldari can't be trusted.

It takes several thousand years for those events to be undone, when Yvraine brings a Primarch back from the dead stasis.
...Yvraine also blackmails Guilliman, saying she can snuff his life out anytime she wants...But let's ignore that. It makes Aeldari look like bad guys...And everyone knows it's the Imperium, who are the bad ones.

This is what the Emperor tried, and it really didn't work. Because it is nigh impossible, and trying got Chaos actively involved in bringing down the galaxy...

'As long as there are those who remember what was, there will always be those who are unable to accept what can be.' - Thanos, Avengers: Endgame.

This is what I mean when you say you have to make the Age of Strife...Not happen.

Each planet, has roughly 5,000 years to develop their own culture and practices...Luckily, we can relate to that really well. 5,000 years ago, for us, was the Bronze Age. So each planet had roughly the Bronze Age-to-now to develop independently of any other culture or planet or system or sector. However, during this time, you also have the spontaneous generation of those with the Psyker gene, and, because Chaos is growing in power, some people even learn about Sorcery, which is even worse. So you have all that time, plus magic. Which means that cultures develop pretty specific traditions around that magic.

e.g; You've got great examples in Chogoris, Fenris, Prospero and Colchis. Magic is real.

You also have development of religion and spiritualism, and the development of Abhumans.

The Emperor had a Great Crusade, and he couldn't even stop it.
So unless you want The Emperor to be even more genocidal than he already was, I'm afraid the sets Humanity on an unalterable path. Chaos Always Wins.

Point 2 is the easiest. Both the Aeldari and the Necrons already have the technology to fend off the Warp. They both hate Chaos. The Aeldari can likely be bargained with to share wards and runes to protect against Chaos...

I've already explained that in order to bargain with the Aeldari, you have to make Fulgrim not happen. In order to make Fulgrim not happen. You need to make Erebus not happen. In order to make Erebus not happen, you have to prevent Old Night and what people did and the Powers they supplicated themselves to to survive. You have to make the Age of Strife not happen.

In order for the Great Crusade to not exist or happen, you need the Eye of Terror to not happen - and you can blame the Aeldari for that. The Eye of Terror is not under your control.

Necrons don't exist. At least, they don't exist in a form where you can learn from them. Well, there is the Void Dragon. But the Dragon is what you might call a 'hostile witness' at best.

The Galaxy should have burned when the Eye of Terror opened. Fortunately for you, a race of aliens that pre-dates even the Aeldari seeded the Galaxy with Pylons. Those aliens are all currently asleep, and when they wake up, they will not be friendly. You are vermin, worse than the Orks at this point. The Necrons will not reason with you. Not now, probably not even ever. All's they have to do is wait you out.

They will, however, help you against Tyranids. Unlike Chaos, Tyranids (and Orks) actually can affect the alien race that hates you so much.

likely in return for persevering Maiden Worlds.

Fulgrim blows them up. Mea culpa?

Again, maybe you can make an argument for not instigating the Great Crusade, and a whole bunch of stuff never happens. But somehow I think you're imagining a scenario where the Great Crusade still happens. Humanity still becomes United. Just without the Astartes or the Primarchs. Except we know that that doesn't work. That's why the Astartes and the Primarchs were made in the first place.

The Necrons can be looted initially and see what humans can learn with the Blackstone they left around the galaxy.

Humans already had access to the Blackstones for a long time. They didn't learn ****.

Point 3 would happen from how you would set up the 'Imperium'. Basically you'd want it set up as separate minicivilizations that are mostly self sufficient.

Age of Strife did it. It didn't go so well.

Basically no one mini-civ has an effective fleet, but contributes to one of many mega fleets that only answer to the central power (which in turn, can't intervene in internal affairs.

Which means everyone dies to Tyranids or Orks, as appropriate. Not a good plan. Since there is no way to muster any amount of reasonable defense in any short time frame.

Not only would they rule over dozens of gigantic space stations...

The Phalanx is one of a kind, and irreplaceable. The only one who knows how it was built was Dorn, and he didn't anyone anything. Ever. About it. There should not be more than one Phalanx in the Galaxy. Full stop.

Unless the intent is so that Humanity has several Phalanxes all pointed at each other, and no-one wants to be the first one to push the button?

Finally, as part of point 3, there would be no superhumans created. Because hilariously, Chaos Space Marines are a lot like the Men of Iron if you think about it...

Go straight back to Orks, which the Imperium can't really beat without super-soldiers?

I will concede that without Astartes, and The Horus Heresy, there is no Pharos Incident, and without Pharos, there are no Tyranids. Sure. Maybe I can buy that.

Which brings us to point 1. Creating your own gods. Religion is a unifying force, and one that should be exploited...

Luckily I'm someone who can separate art/fiction from real life. So I wont have to freak out.

But then also there was the Cataclysm of Souls, which kicked off a civil war the size of the Horus Heresy. Uniting all of the Galaxy under a single religion, turns out...Not that easy.

and thus also forming a common cause when fighting an outside invader. But what would this religion look like? Personally, I think it should be explicitly opposed to Chaos. The Church of Order, preaching peace, unity, and moderation. And in order to jumpstart the creation of the God of Order, all psykers will be indoctrinated into the church as clergy of the church. This also means the church is responsible for all interstellar communication and guiding the Unified Fleet.

The problem is that you still have to undo the Age of Strife.

Even when the Imperium were calling the Emperor straight up a God, several sections of the Imperium still couldn't agree on it, and not just because the Emperor told them not to say it.

But the key part is that psykers would be taken away to warded sanctuaries, with both Eldar wards, and maybe Necron blackstone, and taught the mental discipline to resist Chaos...

Oh...
OH!

You're talking about M42!Imperium, with Guilliman walking, and on diplomatic terms with the Aeldari. You're talking about post-Cicatrix, you're talking about post-Pariah Nexus, where the Imperium has spoken to Necrons more than zero times without it ending it abject violence. You're talking about post-Fall of Cadia where the Imperium does know what the Pylons do because Abaddon already destroyed them all and it turns out they were really important and now you only know their function once they're gone.

Oh okay. Now we're on the same page.

...Although I really don't think that's what you meant.

The Astronomicon would likely still need to be made in order to aid navigation, but that's doable...

Okay so Pharos is back. Does it still night-light to Tyranids if it doesn't explode?

Blanks would be treated as holy matyrs/saints

So you have to remove the instinctive disgust anyone-with-a-soul feels around them? Yeah. Maybe if you change a fundamental aspect of what a Blank is, you could probably turn them into Saints. Y'know...Because Saints are supposed to inspire hope and miraculous bravery. Not dry retching and a fight-or-flight response.

On one hand, yes, limiting technology to the Ad Mech means it is dramatically less likely to cause a second Men of Iron incident.

That wasn't the purpose of limiting technology to the AdMech.

On the other hand, it also screeches progress to a halt, and Humanity needs to surpass some pretty high bars technology wise.

It screeches progress to a halt because you don't know what the AdMech does.

The AdMech is a human resources department that enforces operational/workplace health and safety.

Does your invention have the potential to explode and kill millions if not billions of people? Yes. Banned.
Does your invention have the potential to tear a hole in spacetime? Yes. Banned.
Does your invention create sentient non-human entities? Yes. Banned.
Does your invention utilise alien technology that you can't explain? Yes. Banned.

If you can't explain that your technology is safe and replicable-by-people-who-aren't-you, then you're doing mad science. Stop it.

The problem is that the only technology worth talking about, kills billions of people by accident, tears holes in realspace, creates AI and can't be explained. But hey. Blame the AdMech for being sticks in the mud. Sure.

OMG. The AdMech ruins everything. Why can't I invent a sentient robot to perform tasks for me...I learned to code for nothing.

For the Ad Mech, reforming them to explain the Machine Spirit as not something inherent to every machine...

So you want to try turning the AdMech off and on again?

Question.
Do you believe that the entity Semyon guarded is The Void Dragon? Or at least a Shard of the same?
That entity made a Dalia a Perpetual, or at the very least immortal.
The Emperor traded with the Entity multiple times.

Does that entity corrupt Mars?

Is the Omnissiah real? UR-025, a Man of Iron, certainly seems to think so. If the Omnissiah is real, and that entity is the Void Dragon (or at least a Shard); What do? Kill it? But it's being so helpful. That's why you - The Emperor - didn't kill it, and you instructed a bunch of people on Mars to keep it idden and safe. Forever.

Which is why cybernetics do not decrease someone's humanity.

Ah...Partial disagree.
How much of someone's brain can be mechanical before you become an AI? 51%?
As long as you have a pre-frontal cortex and an amygdala, you're still Human? If your pre-frontal cortex is damage, and only part of it, is replaced, are you still Human?

Dunno. You're asking a fundamental question about how the AdMech operates.

Finally, if cybernetics don't decrease Humanity, then Skitarii and Servitors are banned. Is that the intent? Famously, a T'au Commander projectile vomited the first time he saw a Servitor up close. Maybe outlawing cyborgs isn't a bad thing.

In these space stations experiments are basically unrestrained...

Ahh...The old 'anything is legal in international waters' argument. Just...lol.
Finally...Unrestricted science and experimentation? I know you know that this is a bad idea. I know you know.

Tactics are held in high esteem, and every battle should seek victory with a minimum of casualities. Which also hits another point: Don't Rush. Sometimes you have to. Sometimes if you don't win right now, then the enemy will win. But often that is not the case. Don't rush things, and fight wars properly. Establish proper logistics, defensive lines, ect. And for pete's sake, establish proper space control.

This of course assumes that you have unlimited time.
This means that every war ends in a protracted siege.

Orks aren't going to play by your rules.

But also have elites in power armor and with bolters. If the Sisters can have them, so can other armies.

So we don't want super soliders. You just want regular soldiers with kind-of-okay gear.

Same with a bunch of the better Space Marine vehicles. There isn't really any reason a normal person can't use them. Even up to dreadnaughts.

You can only say this if you don't know what a Space Marine is.

But you could do drop pods fill with automated turrets.

They have those. They suck. They're only good for point defense, which doesn't work if your opponent moves around them, which they will. Or your opponent destroys them. Which they will.

1. Split humanity up into multiple civilizations that are working together. That way if one civilization falls, humanity itself can recover.

You're not concerned with one civilisation falling. You're concerned with multiple civilsations falling, and then grouping up together. Best case you end up with the Badab War. Worst case you end up with the Interregnum.

2. Actually work with aliens and their technology to gain access to anti-psyker tools

You have to change history. More specifically you have to wake the Necrons up way, way, way earlier, maybe even before the Age of Strife.

Have several super fleets and world ships, providing yet another back up for humanity to recover from...

The Emperor couldn't even make that happen.

4. Deliberately make a Church of Order, that is opposed to Chaos and welcomes psykers into it's ranks.

We have actual Satanists and people who believe they're Witches IRL. Imagine if they had actual magic powers. Just because you make something opposed to something, doesn't mean it will work.

Reform the Ad Mech so they actually invent new technologies (and share them) and can acknowledge that machines can be corrupted.

...So you are talking Pre-Great Crusade-era Imperium, right?

Use force well. Just because you have trillions, if not more of soldiers doesn't mean you should spend them like candy.

That's exactly what it means. If you have a renewable resource, why not spend it? You'll just get more.

I'm almost ashamed at how much I didn't have to look up. Like...I just know this for some reason. Meanwhile, I struggled at Uni in my organic chemistry classes and trying to figure out which ways orbitals spin, and I still barely understand covalent, ionic, and Van der Waals forces.

[Eldan]

For the record, I'd say the reference for the Age of Strife and what came before it isn't Dune, it's Foundation.

[The Glyphstone]

So you have to remove the instinctive disgust anyone-with-a-soul feels around them? Yeah. Maybe if you change a fundamental aspect of what a Blank is, you could probably turn them into Saints. Y'know...Because Saints are supposed to inspire hope and miraculous bravery. Not dry retching and a fight-or-flight response.

While I'm not disagreeing with your points, I actually did something like this in my last Rogue Trader game, with a pocket empire that had been severed from the Imperium since the Great Crusade era, and had a statistically abnormally high ratio of blanks. Blanks were still blank-y, but thousands of years of social conditioning had indoctrinated the non-blanks into believing that the revulsion and disgust they felt was self-inflicted, being confronted with their own impurity and instinctively directing it outward at the holy person who was making them feel so inadequate. Sure, it worked largely because I said it did, and without any true Saints to contrast against there wasn't proof to the negative, but anecdotally I feel like it would be possible for a good writer to do something similar.

[Fyraltari]

While I'm not disagreeing with your points, I actually did something like this in my last Rogue Trader game, with a pocket empire that had been severed from the Imperium since the Great Crusade era, and had a statistically abnormally high ratio of blanks. Blanks were still blank-y, but thousands of years of social conditioning had indoctrinated the non-blanks into believing that the revulsion and disgust they felt was self-inflicted, being confronted with their own impurity and instinctively directing it outward at the holy person who was making them feel so inadequate. Sure, it worked largely because I said it did, and without any true Saints to contrast against there wasn't proof to the negative, but anecdotally I feel like it would be possible for a good writer to do something similar.

Oh, hey, I remember that concept! How did it go, did your players enjoy it?

[The Glyphstone]

Oh, hey, I remember that concept! How did it go, did your players enjoy it?

It worked out pretty well. The Rogue Trader being a psyker was a bit of a hiccup that I was delighted to have, but he took it as a challenge and having a Blank as the Seneschal and 2nd in command helped a lot in building credibility. They jumped at every chance to normalize relations and bring the pocket cluster into the Imperium as intact as possible, so that side plot ended with as 'good' an ending as you can expect from 40k.

[lord_khaine]

I'm almost ashamed at how much I didn't have to look up. Like...I just know this for some reason. Meanwhile, I struggled at Uni in my organic chemistry classes and trying to figure out which ways orbitals spin, and I still barely understand covalent, ionic, and Van der Waals forces.

I disagree with at least half of what you wrote as usual :P
But you absolutely have my sympathy regarding orbital spin movement.
Its stuff you barely understand for 1-2 weeks before and after the exam. Then forget about xD

[Azuresun]

My point is, basically, that canon changes. What you thought was true at one point, might not be true anymore.

One thing I absolutely love about 40K is that there is, in-setting, a sect of the Inquisition who are dedicated to making the history of the Imperium as confusing and contradictory as possible, to deny intelligence to the enemies of mankind.

[Silverraptor]

Alright. I haven't read any of the books and have only done my own research in regards to things Chaos related. Now that my disqualifications are out of the way, I shall now impart my 2 cents.

Chaos is the collection of thoughts reflecting the current materium inhabitants mindset. All thought and emotions felt and conceived in the materium becomes real in the immaterium. Back with when it was just the Old Ones, the immaterium was a heck of a lot calmer than it is now (now being the current time in the 41st millennium). With the war between the Old Ones, Eldar, Orks, and the Nectontyr lasting for eons, all that war and conflict led to many thoughts of bloodlust, schemes, and an acceptance of dying during the massive war. These thoughts are attracted to other thoughts in the immaterium and form together. These thoughts combine enough to become pseudo-sapient to realize that the more of the same kind of thoughts that come together, the stronger that collection becomes. As it seeks out more and more of like-minded thoughts, it becomes more intelligent to realizing the source of these thoughts and how to make that source create more of it. Those thoughts then collect enough of itself to become the amalgamation monstrosity we call the chaos gods.

Now I'm convinced (with zero absolute evidence, just a hunch given what I know about the warp) that the Chaos gods of today are not the same chaos gods of old, atleast not in the same sense. Yes they probably are the same chaos gods but they don't act the same. They adhere to their fuel source, which in the 41st millennium, are primarily human. That means it is all the human thoughts and emotions that have changed the chaos gods to behave that way or prey on that aspect of humanity's emotions because that is what's feeding it. A continuous loop until something overrides that. When humanity was unevolved, I'm sure the chaos gods behaved and acted rather differently as they were fed by different alien races. And the biggest thing about alien races is their thoughts and emotions are, well, alien to us humans. They think and feel differently, so it's hard to comprehend what exactly is going on in their heads. An example could be of the laughing god for the Eldar. We humans look at some of the things he does and go, "That's not funny." Well duh, it's an alien god. What he does can be considered funny to the Eldar. We wouldn't be able to tell because we think differently than the Eldar.

Why was Chaos largely absent for most of the galaxy? Two possibilities come to mind.

1) There was not enough thought power yet.
2) The alien mind set of the time influenced Chaos to be very hands off approach

It could be either or both of these possibilities I feel. (Could also be neither.)

On top of that, despite all their power and all their intelligence, the Chaos gods are not really, well... sentient. Yes they can make decisions and goals, but they are very rigid and fixed on the thoughts and emotions they represent, because that is all they are. Because that is all they are, they are railroaded to a set track. Now the track can be flexible and move from side to side, but you still can't get off it if you're a Chaos god. Because the Chaos god can't think anything but the thoughts and emotions that make it up. Also, with the predatory nature of the warp, the thoughts and emotions want to keep making more of the same thoughts and emotions, and even more extreme to feed it and make itself stronger. Khorne wants people to stab each other in the face, because that's what he is. Nurgle is just the inevitability of death and the steady cycle of life and decay. Tzeench is about schemes and plans and all things clever. Slaneesh just wants to have fun. They pursue the creation of these like minded thoughts to keep their power and grow it, as since if you are somewhat aware, you'd probably keep that level of awareness than letting it dissolve into being unaware. Which is why the Chaos gods teamed up for the first time to fight against Big-E. He was cutting off the flow of their continued existence so they needed to do something or else cease to exist. It was a survival instinct. But their given nature is also an Achilles heel. Khorne can never once stop stabbing people in the face to consider that a lie here and there can get what he wants. Nurgle doesn't ever want to change and stay stagnant instead of trying to find a better way. Slaanesh is a bit of an enigma with being the Prince of Pain and Pleasure, but lets not forget that Slaanesh is also mainly formed by the Eldar, so still probably has their main influence and mindset guiding their actions and haven't been over-ridden yet by the flow of humans that feed it currently. And Tzeench just can't stop planning. Have you ever wondered why Tzeench makes so many plans, with some of which seem contradictory to his previous plans towards his ultimate goal? People say it's because you can't comprehend his grand scheme plan, but I think it's far simpler than that. I think he just can't help it. He always has to keep making plans, even plans that thwart his own plans. It's like when you can't turn your brain off and just have to keep thinking of things, I'm sure that is what Tzeench is doing. He makes a plan, then he has to make a plan to stop that plan, then he has to make a plan that stops that plan, but doesn't help the first plan, but then he makes a plan to help the first plan while ignoring the 2nd plan and actively hindering the 3rd plan. So on and so forth. In some ways, the Chaos gods a pitiful. They are trapped in their corners of thinking and can't get out.

This is what tears Chaos apart. When Chaos is undivided and unified, they are unstoppable because they are all different avenues of thoughts and could represent a whole person. But when one of those avenues decides to do their own thing, it quite literally rips itself apart. Like a human in crisis, when you have runaway thoughts, it feels like you are being ripped apart emotionally. Well, that happens literally when a unified Chaos force falls apart. The glue keeping the different aspects together comes apart and Chaos splits off, which inevitably weakens it. The whole concept of Chaos always wins is both correct and wrong at the same time. Yes, it succeeds in feeding itself by influencing those living in the materium, but it also doesn't succeed because you have 4 avenues of thought literally competing for the same thought space in those mortals.

I was leading up to something but I've forgotten what that was...

Anyways, I have some questions though. Let say all living things suddenly stopped existing in the 40k universe, what happens to the warp, now that all thoughts and emotions stopped flowing into it. Does it slowly revert back to a much calmer place with the Chaos Gods slowly being erased from existence? Or does it neither grow nor shrink and the Chaos gods will remain as they always were? I ask because if it is the former, it means that Chaos can be defeated because there is a drain to the collection of thoughts and emotions, slowly getting rid of some of it all the time, which makes the Chaos gods banding together more desperate on their behalf because it was literal life or death to stop Big E. But if it's the latter, then yeah, Chaos always wins because you can always add, but never subtract from the warp. But that makes their alliance more of greed than desperation. It's more of, "Hey, don't touch that! I'm still eating!" than life or death. Also, I know that if there is not enough immaterium power, any demon that cross over into the materium will dissolve into nothingness. Does it all go completely back into the warp? Or is some of the thoughts and emotions that make up that being gone forever? I ask because I always wondered about the Eye of Terror. All that warp stuff spilling into the galaxy, is it actually evaporating in a hostile environment? Like a hose of water in the desert, that sure you can spread the water out pretty far, but eventually the water will evaporate from the heat of the sun. If so, then doesn't the eye of terror provide benefit and harm to Chaos? It allows them easier access into the materium, but at the same time it's venting all the built up thoughts and emotions contained in the warp from the beginning of time? Just a few questions I always wondered.

[Eldan]

One thing I absolutely love about 40K is that there is, in-setting, a sect of the Inquisition who are dedicated to making the history of the Imperium as confusing and contradictory as possible, to deny intelligence to the enemies of mankind.

And a sect of the Inquisition who fight against time-travellers, who mainly seem to be fighting themselves and occasionally all vanish from history and then appear again.

[Fyraltari]

So, quick question. I haven't read the First Heretic, but I'm told that in it, Lorgar is guided by a Daemon Prince called Ingethel. My question is, what god does she serve? Neither her actions or her looks point to any in particular? Is she Undivided? Because I thought that was just Be'lakor and eventually Lorgar and Perturabo.

[BRC]

So, quick question. I haven't read the First Heretic, but I'm told that in it, Lorgar is guided by a Daemon Prince called Ingethel. My question is, what god does she serve? Neither her actions or her looks point to any in particular? Is she Undivided? Because I thought that was just Be'lakor and eventually Lorgar and Perturabo.

I'm actually curious about the nature of Chaos Undivided

Like, the impression I got is that the deeper you get into Chaos, with demons and the like, the more you have to align yourself with one of the gods, but you can be a generic Chaos Cultist.

Like, you can start painting spikey wheels and shout "FOR THE GREAT POWERS! DEATH TO THE CORPSE-EMPEROR", and your cult/warband will have an especially high number of mutants and psykers in it without specifically being "A Khornite Cult" or "A Nergal Cult".

Like, in the Gaunt's Ghosts books, the Sabbat Worlds have been occupied by Chaos forces, but (Partially because they're mostly just WorldWar40k) few of the enemies they fight seem to be associated with any particular god. Instead the forces they fight are mostly portrayed as just generic Enemy Soldiers, where one side of the conflict happens to be Loyalist and the other is nominally aligned with Chaos. Even when we get to the Blood Pact as enemies, they're just Elite Soldiers for the most part. They're apparently specifically Khornite, but from my memories (It's been like a decade) they seemed more about fighting for their Warlord than The Gods Of Chaos.


Which is to say, my impression is that you've got three "Levels" of Chaos.

At the surface you have "Chaos Undivided" in that you're probably not THAT into Chaos, except that if you're not part of the Imperium it's really the only other game in town, and you're not opposed to the occasional blood sacrifice to impossibly vast dark powers if it helps you get your way. You're less "Chaos Undivided" and more "Chaos Indistinguished". Like, what you're really mad about is the Imperium stealing all your food, but since loyalty to the state is a key part of Imperial doctrine, any rebellion is inherently heretical, so you might as well start doing Chaos stuff. Blood for the blood god and all that, but you only observe the major holidays like Slaneshmas and "Cut out your neighbor's heart with a rusty knife" day.

After that you've got the god-specific Cults who are all about exerting Their God's will and plans. Whatever personal agendas they pursue are secondary to the worship and will of their chosen Power.


Finally, you have the true Chaos Undivided of Abbadon and the like, where you get the followers of individual gods to work together against a common foe (Like the Imperium). The group that recognizes Chaos's divisions, but still fights for Chaos as a whole. The Chaos equivalent of every fantasy character who has to tell the Dwarves to stop fighting with the Elves and the Paladins to stop bickering with the Wizards so they can all team up to fight the Orcs/Dragons/Whatever big threat of this particular cliche is.