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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    What do we know of the Missing Primarchs, and their Legions?

    I'm setting up a game where the PCs will be playing as them, so any info appreciated. I might not follow what we know, but it provides a good base.
    Sanguinius implies that one of the two is Damned From Memory because of him and his legion suffering catastrophic gene-seed failure.

    Malcador psychically chokes Horus for daring to attempt to say one of their names.

    And whatever happened to them was bad enough that Dorn begged Malcador to block his memory of it.

    One of them may have been named "Malibron."

    They're referred to as "The Purged and the Forgotten."
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2020-12-14 at 08:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    Sanguinius implies that one of the two is Damned From Memory because of him and his legion suffering catastrophic gene-seed failure.

    Malcador psychically chokes Horus for daring to attempt to say one of their names.

    And whatever happened to them was bad enough that Dorn begged Malcador to block his memory of it.

    One of them may have been named "Malibron."

    They're referred to as "The Purged and the Forgotten."
    So not a ton of info. Garch. What we do have, I'll probably deviate from, to make better game, but good to know what I'm ignoring.

    What about the Primarchs in general? What were their upbringings like? I know the generalities, but if anyone has any good links to read up on, that'd be great.

    Thank you MM! :)
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    There's 18 Primarchs and each of them grew up on a different planet, and each has their own backstory. I can give you the super-fast versions of each, but if you want any detail at all then you may wish to try somewhere like the Lexicanum website.

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    01: Lion El'Johnson (Dark Angels) - Landed on a planet called Caliban and grew up feral in a forest full of monsters. Later joined an order of Knights and helped purge monsters from the world and becoming a King Arthur-like figure.

    02: [REDACTED]

    03: Fulgrim (Emperor's Children) - Landed on a heavily polluted world called Chemos. Grew up to become Chief Administrator and reformed the planet's industry to both clean up the pollution and allow its population time to develop art and culture.

    04: Perturabo (Iron Warriors) - Landed on Olympia, a mountainous and technologically poor planet. Adopted by a blacksmith, grew up to 'invent' steam-age technology and become a hero of the planet before being discovered by the Emperor.

    05: Jaghatai Khan (White Scars) - Landed on Mundus Planus, basically adopted by Genghis Khan and grew up to be a Mongol Warlord.

    06: Leman Russ (Space Wolves) - Landed on Fenris, adopted by Vikings and grew up to be Beowulf.

    07: Rogal Dorn (Imperial Fists) - Landed on a cold planet named Inwit where he was adopted by a tribal chieftain. Grew up to be a statesman and mediator between the different tribes, similar but less violent than Leman Russ.

    08: Konrad Curze (Night Lords) - Landed on Nocturne, a wretched hive of scum and villainy where the sun never shines. Grew up feral on the streets, and eventually became an evil Batman-like figure who murdered and mutilated criminals to scare the planet into being less lawless.

    09: Sanguinius (Blood Angels) - Landed on an irradiated desert moon named Baal where local a tribe took pity on them despite his hideous mutation. Grew up to be a messianic/Moses-like figure who protected his people from the desert and other tribes.

    10: Ferrus Mannus (Iron Hands) - Planet Medusa was full of warring tribes, but Ferrus remained a hermit and refused to get involved with their petty rivalries no matter how much of a heroic, mythical figure he became by fighting giant monsters and the likes. Eventually he obtained his metal hands, and decided it was time to head down from the mountains and teach the tribes how to use technology.

    11: [REDACTED]

    12: Angron (World Eaters) - Landed on Nuceria and was immediately captured by slavers, had Butcher's Nails hammered into his skull and sold as a gladiator. He led his fellow slaves to a doomed yet honourable Spartacus-like revolt and was stolen from the planet by the Emperor who teleported him out of dodge at the last moment.

    13: Roubote Gulliman (Ultramarines) - Landed on Ultramar and was adopted by a statesman who taught him diplomacy and oration. Grew up to become the most impressive politician of all time, uniting 500 worlds into a single confederacy of planets.

    14: Mortarion (Death Guard) - Landed on Barbarus, a heavily polluted world run by mutant overlords. Adopted by a mutant Warlord, Mortarion eventually rebelled and fought them on behalf of the enslaved human population, failing at the final hurdle when even his own enhanced biology couldn't protect him from the pollution and he was over-taken by the Emperor.

    15: Magnus the Red (Thousand Sons) - Landed on Prospero, a Classical Greek-style planet where everyone was psychic, a scholar, or both. Grew up to become the planet's preeminent scholar and politician, as well as the most mystically-educated and psychically adept person in the galaxy and was in constant psychic-communication with the Emperor throughout.

    16: Horus Lupercal (Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus) - The planet Cthonia was more or less "Mad Max World" with post-apocalyptic-style gangs running about the place. He became a warlord who overtook most of the other factions before being the first Primarch physically found by the Emperor.

    17: Lorgar Aurelian (Word Bearers) - Landed on another Ancient Greek-style desert planet named Colchis, similar to Prospero except that they revered religion rather than philosophy. Adopted by the High Priest of the Old Religion and led crusades to unite the world under a single religious doctrine centred around a single divine figure clad in gold and eventually became High Priest of this new religion.

    18: Vulkan (Salamanders) - Nocturne was similar to Medusa, all volcanos and giant lizards. Vulkan was adopted by local tribes and became a blacksmith and then hero when he single-handedly faced down a Dark Eldar raiding party.

    19: Corvus Corax (Raven Guard) - Deliverance was a prison moon, and Corus grew up among the prison/slave population until he eventually led an uprising and other threw the gaolers in the name of democracy and-oh wait, Emperor.

    20: Alpharius Omegron (Alpha Legion) - As far as anyone knows he doesn't have a homeworld; he was first encountered leading a band of space pirates who attacked Horus' flagship and has never given much detail about his youth, which presumably involves dogfighting in space ships and being Flash Gordon/Han Solo.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2020-12-15 at 04:10 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Two Unknown Primarchs:

    Horus is near-literally Lucifer. Horus' Brothers, even post-Heresy, remember Horus at least a little bit positively. The Fallen Angel, was still, once an Angel. Lorgar...Is responsible for almost everything. Yet once again, Lorgar is shown to have positive qualities, and reflected on by Magnus - the little dog who lost his way. Guilliman, in the 42nd millienium, reflects that maybe Lorgar was onto something big, but his Brothers were too blind to see it.

    2 and 11, though? The Primarchs actively try to Forgotten them. Malal keeps being brought up as the 5th Chaos God of Vengeance and Malice in reference to them in a few circles.

    Sanguinius speaks out being cast out as 'a third' when talking of the Red Thirst, and the Flaw in his gene-seed, and why he couldn't tell the Emperor about it.
    Some of the World Eaters are afraid to follow Angron - they get over it - as they're worried that they might get Forgotten'd.

    Magnus, was not the first time Leman Russ was sent to Forgotten a Legion. This is referenced many times. And apparently even Gabriel Seth in current 42nd millennium, knows about it. Whether Gabriel Seth has access to secret Captain Amit knowledge, I don't know. Maybe it's just an Open Secret among the 1st and 2nd Founding Chapters?

    Lorgar is very worried that his Legion will be Forgotten'd, and one of his deepest fears is that many of his Astartes will be absorbed into Guilliman's Legion.

    Additionally, it's hinted a few times that the reason Ultramar is so huge, is 'cause actually not all of it was originally Guilliman's.
    Similarly, the reason that the Ultramarines are a) Such a massive Legion, and b) So adaptable and so good at everything, is because they're actually the combined strength, intelligence and experience of three Legions.
    However, such is Black Library, there are many conflicting stories on the Ultramarines.

    Dorn believes that if 2 and 11 were around, Horus would have already won a while ago. Whether that means that they would've joined Horus, or if they would have been actively terrible to have on your Team, is unclear.

    At least half of the Primarchs witnessed...Something...In relation to 2 and/or 11. They were commanded to Forgotten about it. I'm guessing that Dorn can't Forgotten about it, and he's scarred for life.

    One of the two Primarchs went deep into the Eastern Fringe (T'au, Kraken) looking for Necron **** (they didn't know it was Necron stuff in 30K, but that's what it was). It is unclear what he found.

    Cawl references making Primaris Marines from the other 11. Lumping the two Forgotten'd ones in with the Heretics.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-12-15 at 06:00 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Since it is chaos it is likely that they would have lost to killing each other for no good reason if there was too many chaos primarches around.
    Chaos lacks the ability to work well in huge groups: while the cumulated power is huge a big chaos group will almost always suffer many issues.(unless they are freshly converted to chaos then they did not have the time to become too undisciplined)
    Last edited by noob; 2020-12-15 at 06:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    I'm not necessarily convinced that the forgotten primarchs need to be that much worse than Chaos - correct me if I'm wrong, but the implication is that they were killed before being fully brought into the imperium and the crusade. Turn up at a planet, find a really big guy who keeps shouting about how great khorne is, call Russ in to lop his head off, glass the planet, kill everyone who knows about it, tell his brothers he was REALLY BAD FOREVER, give the spare army to Roboute, job's a good'un.

    The reason Horus wasn't treated the same way is because he took half the imperium with him, and made far too much trouble to just be killed before anybody hears about it like a single-planet threat could be, and they see him and the traitors with a certain amount of affection because they knew them in senses other than the emperor's propaganda.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    I'm not necessarily convinced that the forgotten primarchs need to be that much worse than Chaos
    Then why do the Traitor Primarchs still choose to forget to remember, if Two and Elven weren't even that bad?

    correct me if I'm wrong, but the implication is that they were killed before being fully brought into the imperium and the crusade.
    I'm not sure what you mean by 'brought into the Crusade'.
    Several of the Primarchs fought alongside them. Almost all of the Primarchs remember Two and Eleven. Dorn can't not remember.

    The reason Horus wasn't treated the same way is because he took half the imperium with him, and made far too much trouble to just be killed before anybody hears about it like a single-planet threat could be, and they see him and the traitors with a certain amount of affection because they knew them in senses other than the emperor's propaganda.
    Again, you're saying that the Traitor Primarchs still think "Horus good, Two and Eleven bad."

    It doesn't hold water that Two and Eleven weren't just doing what Horus, Lorgar and Magnus might've done. I believe that Guilliman even witnessed Angron's Ascencion, and was 'fine' with it. But Two and Eleven bad.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-12-15 at 07:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Then why do the Traitor Primarchs still choose to forget to remember, if Two and Elven weren't even that bad?



    I'm not sure what you mean by 'brought into the Crusade'.
    Several of the Primarchs fought alongside them. Almost all of the Primarchs remember Two and Eleven. Dorn can't not remember.



    Again, you're saying that the Traitor Primarchs still think "Horus good, Two and Eleven bad."

    It doesn't hold water that Two and Eleven weren't just doing what Horus, Lorgar and Magnus might've done. I believe that Guilliman even witnessed Angron's Ascencion, and was 'fine' with it. But Two and Eleven bad.
    Basically what i'm saying is that Two and Eleven weren't necessarily worse than any of the others - just that the Emperor was able to take complete and uncontested control of the narrative around it. Personally I prefer that to the idea that there's some kind of Super-Chaos that is Extra Evil.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Basically what i'm saying is that Two and Eleven weren't necessarily worse than any of the others - just that the Emperor was able to take complete and uncontested control of the narrative around it. Personally I prefer that to the idea that there's some kind of Super-Chaos that is Extra Evil.
    I think the issue is with us, the audience; "What is worse than what Horus and Lorgar did!? Fulgrim even sliced off Ferrus' head!"
    I can't imagine, because I'm already imagining Horus Lorgar as the worst one. There is no God of the Gaps, because we've already got a floor as to how far down we can go. It can't be worse, because we already know what the worst, is.

    But, it has to be worse... Doesn't it? Because even the Traitors think it was real bad - and they're Traitors!

    "If even [X] thinks you've goof'd, you've goof'd real hard."


    Maybe one of them [Performed an Un-Alive Ritual on Himself] in front of at least half of his brothers?
    Would certainly scar some of them for life. And if you brought it up in front of them they would put you through the wall before you even finished the sentence.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-12-15 at 08:07 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    A bit of interesting out of game trivia/legend (it gets brought up occasionally and I have no idea if it was true) is that 20 original writers/employees from GW each wrote their own primarch and legion. It's said that two employees left the company not on the best of terms, so their legions were removed from the list.

    Probably apocryphal.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    A bit of interesting out of game trivia/legend (it gets brought up occasionally and I have no idea if it was true) is that 20 original writers/employees from GW each wrote their own primarch and legion. It's said that two employees left the company not on the best of terms, so their legions were removed from the list.

    Probably apocryphal.
    I remember reading somewhere official (an interview or a White Dwarf) that the two redacted chapters were there so players could plug their own custom chapters into those slots, if they were so inclined.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    A bit of interesting out of game trivia/legend (it gets brought up occasionally and I have no idea if it was true) is that 20 original writers/employees from GW each wrote their own primarch and legion. It's said that two employees left the company not on the best of terms, so their legions were removed from the list.

    Probably apocryphal.
    This might be conflated with what happened to the God, Malal. Most of his fluff was written by John Wagner and Alan Grant as patron for one of their Warhammer Fantasy characters, but they did so as freelancers which technically meant that they owned everything they had written, not GW. Rather than pay royalties to keep using the name, GW nixed Malal entirely with the advent of Second Edition in the early 90's, and Wagner and Grant never worked for them again.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Clearly, Two and Eleven did the worst possible thing: they tried to establish democracies and humane states that actually give a damn about the well-being of its citizenry. This could not be allowed to exist.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-12-15 at 10:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Because even the Traitors think it was real bad - and they're Traitors!
    Oh sure, makes sense. After all, none of the primarchs were hypocrites, delusional, prone to self-justification, or mad.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Clearly, Two and Eleven did the worst possible thing...
    Patrick Troughton didn't do anything bad that I can recall off the top of my head.
    And Matt Smith is my favourite Doctor.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I remember reading somewhere official (an interview or a White Dwarf) that the two redacted chapters were there so players could plug their own custom chapters into those slots, if they were so inclined.
    Yeah, that’s my understanding. It’s a really great example of how 40k is intended as a setting for people’s own stories, rather than just following the canon. A lot of things in the timeline are intended as simply hooks for people to explore, rather than having a great plan behind it. As GW staff often say about hobby ideas on the Warhammer Community podcast, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”.

    (I have a related rant about how a lot of the internet culture around various types of nerd media are far FAR too invested in the idea of there being a single ‘truth’ in the story, rather than using what has been created as a baseline for their own interpretation. This is not at all exclusive to 40k, it’s a thing in a lot of spaces)
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    I like the idea that the two missing Primarchs didn't necessarily do something so bad no one wants to remember them, but that they were such failures they didn't have any redeeming qualities in the eyes of the Emperor/fellow Primarchs. One was a failure gentically, IE their geneseed failing was something worse than the Red Rage.

    And the other one had sex with an Eldar. That's what scarred Dorn.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    If I remember correctly, it's even the official stance of GW and Black Library that "just because something is canon doesn't mean it is true". Authorship bias is built-in to all the lore by design.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Canon is fake and bad. The sooner you learn to discard it from how you think about things, the better.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I like the idea that the two missing Primarchs didn't necessarily do something so bad no one wants to remember them, but that they were such failures they didn't have any redeeming qualities in the eyes of the Emperor/fellow Primarchs. One was a failure gentically, IE their geneseed failing was something worse than the Red Rage.

    And the other one had sex with an Eldar. That's what scarred Dorn.
    Maybe they were double traitors and betrayed the betrayal?
    Nobody wants a double traitor in their ranks.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Patrick Troughton didn't do anything bad that I can recall off the top of my head.
    And Matt Smith is my favourite Doctor.
    Two once planted a bomb in a ship that was already fleeing the planet he was on.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    And Matt Smith is my favourite Doctor.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    I bet 2 and 11 emerged as girls, but the Man-Emperor of Mankind thinks that (and I quote):

    "The Adeptus Astartes can only contain males. No girls allowed. They are yucky."

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    In fairness to GW, I don't think that they or their products have ever been actively and intentionally misogynistic. They're just the usual sort of passive, unconsciously sexist as are most corporations - for what little faint praise that represents.
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  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    In fairness to GW, I don't think that they or their products have ever been actively and intentionally misogynistic. They're just the usual sort of passive, unconsciously sexist as are most corporations - for what little faint praise that represents.
    Just because there is constant catastrophes and that the characters of the universe are misogynistic and racist (because social progress is much harder when you are busy working 24 hour a day and fighting and dying the rest of the time) does not means the writers of the universe are.
    Because the emperor was misogynistic he did not think "let us make so that both women and men can become thunder warriors and the other kinds of genetically improved super soldiers".
    It is much harder to reach high positions as a women in an highly misogynistic society hence the over-representation of men in places of power in warhammer 40k but it does not means the writers are misogynistic.
    They might be misogynistic too but their setting is not in itself a proof of it.
    Just the way most characters in warhammer 40k wants to commit genocide but we can not assume it means the writers thinks genocide is a good idea.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-12-17 at 06:54 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    In fairness to GW, I don't think that they or their products have ever been actively and intentionally misogynistic.
    "How do we make heroic power fantasy for boys?"
    Ten seconds later GW recreates 2000 A.D.-in-space.
    Ten seconds after that GW revamps 2000 A.D.-in-space, into a mash of Star Wars and Dune.
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  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Or perhaps the creators were just trying to create cool stuff.

    Here is a few little nuggets to remember:
    -first off, most initiates are not really volunteers and those that are have NO to even close to a reasonable idea as to how horrible their future is going to be
    -the selection process alone for (modern 42nd millennia) is horrifying and cruel to say the least
    -the transformation process is even worse
    -the things they send you to fight top even that
    -and the thing you fight for is a brutal tyranny where no hope is to be had


    knowing all of this, talented women are secretly blessed by not have to go through that and to those that become Inquisitors (or rather Inquisitrixes), Military Commanders, Judge Anderson Adeptus Arbites, Techpriestess or Sisters of Battle had a degree of choice the SM were never given and can act with a faith that is more their own than any SM Chapter would ever allow.

    Note that for the rest of the population is still fokked and they are all equally fokked independent of the bits you have under your rags, furs or one fits all overall as you slave away in a manufactorum and fight for your very survival on a feral or death world.







    But this reminds me, I consider the average modern, 42nd millennium SM's greatest asset not to be their powerful bodies, but their fortress-like minds. After all, there are plenty of things far more physically powerful than them running around in the galaxy. (it's kind of the point of the grimdarkness of 40k, not even the OP-in-any-other-setting SM can assure victory here, often not even their own survival)

    Were average 30k SM of equally steely wills? (Average, not special like Sigismund or other special characters)








    Also, long ago I once questioned here whether or not Primaris Marines are NOT as mentally tough as old-school, contemporary SM.
    I think I got a "Yes, they are NOT as mentally tough as regular SM" but is that still true or has the lore shifted a bit, respectively have the Primaris Marines toughened (mentally) up after a few decades with the old-school SM that know the true horrors of endless, hopeless war?
    Last edited by Platinius; 2020-12-17 at 07:10 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post
    Were average 30k SM of equally steely wills? (Average, not special like Sigismund or other special characters)
    The problem is that the only characters we see, are the special characters (Raldoran, Thiel, Branne Nev, Archamaus, Argel Tal, Shadrak Meduson, etc.). We never really see anyone who isn't a main character.

    I think I got a "Yes, they are NOT as mentally tough as regular SM" but is that still true or has the lore shifted a bit, respectively have the Primaris Marines toughened (mentally) up after a few decades with the old-school SM that know the true horrors of endless, hopeless war?
    There is Awoken vs. Indoctrinated, yes.

    The pure, first-generation Martian Primaris Chapters are not, for they have no history or reference point for what it is they're fighting.
    The Primaris Marines who develop from Firstborn Chapters, are well-equipped and know exactly what Chaos is, because they have the concept and the context of The Long War.
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  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Come now, you all must admit that GW dodged a huge bullet by not having us all google "SM women" all the time.


    A friend of mine told a story about how there was one person who showed up on the Warhammer Dwarfs Yahoo mailgroup veeeery confused looking for dwarf women. Real ones. I guess it's "little people" now?
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2020-12-17 at 08:33 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Just because there is constant catastrophes and that the characters of the universe are misogynistic and racist (because social progress is much harder when you are busy working 24 hour a day and fighting and dying the rest of the time) does not means the writers of the universe are.
    Allow me to be absolutely clear when I am referring to GW as the corporate entity, rather than as a group of individuals who I am admonishing as having acted deliberately.

    GW staff are generally nice people, but GW The Company has for decades catered near-exclusively for the male power fantasy, has produced thousands of miniatures of which the 'default' is almost exclusively male-presenting, and use what is traditionally thought of as masculine designs in their correspondence and their branding.

    They're absolutely not the only ones - I cite companies like LEGO who decided that their packages of neon coloured bricks need to also be sold in pink boxes 'for girls'. But they're not doing it to deliberately patronise half of the population - it's casual, lazy sexism brought about by being ignorant/thoughtless rather than being malicious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post
    Inquisitors (or rather Inquisitrixes)
    Female Inquisitors are still just Inquisitors. The Inquisition is, if nothing else, unisex when it comes to inflicting atrocious horror upon civilians. Hard to tell if that is something progressive or not, I admit...

    Also, long ago I once questioned here whether or not Primaris Marines are NOT as mentally tough as old-school, contemporary SM.
    I think I got a "Yes, they are NOT as mentally tough as regular SM" but is that still true or has the lore shifted a bit, respectively have the Primaris Marines toughened (mentally) up after a few decades with the old-school SM that know the true horrors of endless, hopeless war?
    I would suggest that they are different, if not better or worse.

    Iskandar Khayon, the protagonist from The Talon of Horus and The Black Legion, spends some time criticising 40k-era Space Marines as being mentally stunted - far, far more hypno-indoctrinated than he or his fellow Legionaries were, which makes them a lot more incorrigible but also far more rigid and less human.

    For the purpose of which they're used, Space Marines are 'mentally stronger' than Legionaries by sheer virtue of mental brute-strength. All Astartes are hard-wired to fight and kill, but the 40k version is comparatively near-lobotomised to do nothing else.

    But then he is a Legionary of the Long War and thus biased.

    Assuming the above is accurate, Primaris are similar, though more varied. Most of them were created by the process designed by Cawl and then put on ice for a few millennia - arguably their hypno-indoctrination is closer to the standards used closer to M31 than M41 and then tweaked over time. This seems supported by the few novels I've read that include Primaris - they're far less grim and more talkative than Firstborn Marines, apparently closer in mentality to what I've seen in the early Horus Heresy novels.

    That being said; that was mostly at the start of the Indomnitus Crusade - over 100 years has passed since then and Primaris have now been made not just in the image of their parent Chapters by actually by those Chapters, so likely they have started to conform more closely to what we would expect from a Loyalist Marine. I haven't seen anything yet to confirm or deny either way, but it would be a reasonable assumption, if anything can be said to be so in the 40k setting.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    Come now, you all must admit that GW dodged a huge bullet by not having us all google "SM women" all the time.
    There's a vast wealth of punchlines that could go here, I don't think I need to do more than draw anyone's attention to it.
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