Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[hamishspence]

Not any that still exist, as Guilliman sent the Custodes to wipe out any chapters who refused, iirc.

The Custodes were certainly there to ensure that the Primaris were accepted - as a "don't refuse gifts from The Emperor" message - but I don't think there's any instances of them needing to wipe out any "refusing Chapters".

The Sons of Medusa are one of Chapters that Guilliman & co. predicted would be most resistant, but it turned out they weren't nearly as resistant as expected.


https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki...ries_Imperatus


The presence of the Adeptus Custodes also ensured that even the most traditional Chapters accepted the Primaris warriors into their ranks. One does not decline a gift from the Emperor's own hand, after all.

These were the envoys who brought Guilliman's gift to the Adeptus Astartes; their presence ensured that even those Chapters the Primarch did not visit in person understood the gravitas of what they were offered, and set aside whatever mistrust or conservatism they might have had in order to embrace the Emperor's beneficence in their hour of need.


And being required to accept the Greyshields, and the materials and information for producing new Primaris, doesn't mean being required to actually do the producing.

[Renegade Paladin]

Re: the TTS special, funny story; I actually bought Stellaris yesterday because it was on Humble Bundle.

[Silverraptor]

My favorite part was when all those empires were going to Kitten and requesting aid while the massive crusade was sweeping across the galaxy, he shows it has only been 10 years in game. I was dying laughing at that!

[Platinius]

Are there any chapters confirmed to have "not accepted Primaris Marines into them"?

In 8e, Chapters have been stated to have continued to produce Firstborn alongside Primaris, (without specifiying which Chapters do this).


But that's not quite the same as continuing to produce exclusively Firstborn.

It wouldn't surprise me that these chapters do this to make certain the Primaris process is safe and has no unforseen sideffects that make them less effective, loyal or vulnerable to chaos.
Which is actually a pretty reasonable move, almost too reasonable for 40K.
And the nice part (for the chapter, not for the individual marines that have to undergo a second transformation that might acutally kill them despite being already fantastic warriors) is that they can still convert their newer firstborn into Primaris at 90% success rate.
To put it differently, something like 50 men (instead of potentially thousands and more) is a reasonable sacrifice to make sure you don't loose the entire chapter (hence the thousands and more) to an (in their eyes) untested method.

[Platinius]

(While I hate to double port, here is something of minor import)

A bit of poetry

and a happy Sanguinala to all of you

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Is it okay to ask fluff questions about the Old World and the Age of Myth in this thread still, or are we trying to keep this one 40K-exclusive? I just don't want to be rude.

[Wraith]

By all means, go right ahead - Despite the name being '40k', this thread usually becomes 'generic Games Workshop properties and company lore' anyway

[Grim Portent]

Much like the miniature/hobby specific threads that have been tried in the past, there's just not enough traffic specific to the Old World or AoS fluff to keep a thread afloat, so both were informally rolled into the other threads.

All Warhammer fluff is fine here, and I think there have been miniature photos posted in these threads rather than post them into the tabletop discussions before.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thank you!

Is shaving one's head required by ALL branches of Sigmar's cult (regular priests, templar orders like the Knights Griffon, the Witch Hunters, etc.) or is it only a thing for the iconic Warrior Priests?

[Cheesegear]

Is shaving one's head required by ALL branches of Sigmar's cult (regular priests, templar orders like the Knights Griffon, the Witch Hunters, etc.) or is it only a thing for the iconic Warrior Priests?

I believe until they do something else. For Novitiates and only continued for Priests.
Once you're no longer a Novitiate and you're a Wizard, Harry Witch Hunter or Knight, you can do what you want.
So they shave their head until they go out into the world as an adult.

At the very least, everyone in the Cult shaves their head at least once. Only Priests have to shave their heads all the time, though.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thank you! Are all Wood Elf Spellsingers women or is it just that the Total Warhammer games only made female models for the Spellsinger hero units?

And how are Spellsingers trained anyway? How different would it be from the training High Elves go to Saphery for?

[hamishspence]

Thank you! Are all Wood Elf Spellsingers women or is it just that the Total Warhammer games only made female models for the Spellsinger hero units?

And how are Spellsingers trained anyway? How different would it be from the training High Elves go to Saphery for?

Going by the actual models, Wood Elf spellsingers can be of any gender.

I get the impression that Wood Elf training is all done by them - they don't send their people away to learn High Magic or Dark Magic. Ariel is probably the head of the wood elf magical training school.

[Grim Portent]

Spellsingers also have a connection to the spirit-mind of Athel-Loren, part of the whole to a lesser degree than the dryads and treemen and so on, but still connected on a fundmental level. It protects them from the dangers of magic to an extent, and furthers their already intuitive grasp of magic. The specifics of how they're trained as individuals is largely unspecified to my knowledge.

Wood elf high magic users are descended from the traditions they brought from Ulthuan, but less restrictive in nature.

Dark magic users are linked to the Ariel's own delve into sorcery and ensuing madness. Even after being purged of her corruption dark magic attuned spellweavers continued to be born in greater numbers, a perpetual remnant of the damage her actions had caused.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So Wood Elf mages function kind of like D&D Sorcerers where their magical education is fueled by instinct and natural talent while High Elf ones are like D&D Wizards who learn magic through rote and academic study?

[LansXero]

So Wood Elf mages function kind of like D&D Sorcerers where their magical education is fueled by instinct and natural talent while High Elf ones are like D&D Wizards who learn magic through rote and academic study?

No, wood elf mages function like warhammer fantasy wizards and so do high elf ones. Warhammer is all about the Winds, there is nothing 'natural' about magic in the setting, and study or whatever equally only works around study of the winds. There is no D&D parallel to be made.

[Grytorm]

Hello again. I brought this up once before, maybe in another thread, and it led to an argument that felt weird to me. But anyway. In the game Total War Warhammer there is a follower named Dwarf Bride with the description of, "A Dwarf bride often comes with a hefty dowry - by tradition her weight in gold. Which probably explains why hot-blooded Dwarfs take to curvier maids!" This annoys me slightly but I am not going to get into that. Mostly I am asking about it again because at some point I looked up dwarf women on some wiki and it sighted a book which establishes that it is dwarf men who must pay a brideprice to marry. Any confirmation on this one way or the other?

The article mentioned. Dwarf Womenfolk. The citation is listed as Grudgelore pg. 14.

Also I think I started thinking about this because I remembered my idea of how a dwarf woman legendary lord in Total War Warhammer could be fluffed if they decided to make something up. Basically an aging matriarch who has had many husbands, many brothers, and many sons all dead. And after so many she got fed up and decided to take her long list of grudges into her own hands.

[Wraith]

Wood Elves and High Elves are the same species - like Aeldari in 40k being low-key psykers, they're all innately magical but they learn to harness it according to their own faction's preferred teaching.

To use D&D vernacular; Wood Elves are Druids, High Elves are Wizards, and Dark Elves are something between Wizards and Warlocks, having built their city to encourage the formation of Dhar (Dark Magic) that they can harness through training and use as a 'battery' to power their spells.

[LansXero]

. And after so many she got fed up and decided to take her long list of grudges into her own hands.

And do what? Dwarves exist within a clan, if her clan's males are all dead then what exactly is she 'lord' of? Also, she likely answers to some king or another and a council of elders so on whose authority is she 'taking it into her own hands'?

Unless its likely a female slayer or something but then 'random pissed off dwarf housewife' isnt exactly going to be relevant in a setting choke full of absurdly op threats and heros.

[LansXero]

Wood Elves and High Elves are the same species - like Aeldari in 40k being low-key psykers, they're all innately magical but they learn to harness it according to their own faction's preferred teaching.

To use D&D vernacular; Wood Elves are Druids, High Elves are Wizards, and Dark Elves are something between Wizards and Warlocks, having built their city to encourage the formation of Dhar (Dark Magic) that they can harness through training and use as a 'battery' to power their spells.

However, elves are unique on being able to handle both multiple colors and high magic through the combination of all of them, which is common to all three. There is a lot of what makes D&D druids that simply doesnt apply to wood elves, likewise for wizards; colleges and schools of magic are for measly humans.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

No, wood elf mages function like warhammer fantasy wizards and so do high elf ones. Warhammer is all about the Winds, there is nothing 'natural' about magic in the setting, and study or whatever equally only works around study of the winds. There is no D&D parallel to be made.

I know that, I'm asking about technique and how that's passed on. Humans have the Colleges of Magic, High Elves have the White Tower of Hoeth, but for Wood Elves, the way people seem to be describing it is that Spellsingers instinctually learn new spells directly from Athel Loren's "hive-mind," like once they've gained enough experience they just sort of wake up with new, more powerful spells in their brain that they didn't know yesterday. Am I understanding that correctly?

If I'm playing WFRP and my character is a Wood Elf Wizard, how do I describe how he became a Wizard when writing his backstory?

[hamishspence]

One wizard being able to fire off spells from multiple different lores in the same battle though, is somewhat rare - mostly the purview of special characters, like Alarielle.

Usually, a High Elf Mage (or Archmage) will select all their spells from one Lore before the battle (at least, in editions prior to Age of Sigmar).

Except Loremasters (who automatically know the Signature spell from each of the 8 Lores) and Teclis (who may choose 1 spell from each of the 8 Lores, or may know all High Magic spells).

[Grytorm]

And do what? Dwarves exist within a clan, if her clan's males are all dead then what exactly is she 'lord' of? Also, she likely answers to some king or another and a council of elders so on whose authority is she 'taking it into her own hands'?

Unless its likely a female slayer or something but then 'random pissed off dwarf housewife' isnt exactly going to be relevant in a setting choke full of absurdly op threats and heros.

Why can't dwarf women be exceptional individuals?

As for ways a dwarf woman could take a more important role than usual.

I would first assume that dwarf clans would include multiple families some of higher status than others. Other possible leaders could be from lower or more distant families leaving leadership in a state of uncertainty. And if this moment of uncertainty happens during a time of crisis then the Queen may take on more authority than would normally be expected of her.

Perhaps she was originally from a family which made its fortune dealing with humans while at the same time leaving them somewhat dissconected from standard kinship networks. Eventually the family was able to arrange a marriage between themselves and the kinsman of the King of an impoverished clan. Things happened eventually leading to her husband becoming King. And because of who died when she ends up in control of her families fortune giving her the opportunity to grab control of the clan by their long and bushies.

[Grim Portent]

I know that, I'm asking about technique and how that's passed on. Humans have the Colleges of Magic, High Elves have the White Tower of Hoeth, but for Wood Elves, the way people seem to be describing it is that Spellsingers instinctually learn new spells directly from Athel Loren's "hive-mind," like once they've gained enough experience they just sort of wake up with new, more powerful spells in their brain that they didn't know yesterday. Am I understanding that correctly?

If I'm playing WFRP and my character is a Wood Elf Wizard, how do I describe how he became a Wizard when writing his backstory?

A wood elf wizard would be noticed by their kin as having a greater affinity for magic than the normal wood elves, a greater sensitivity to the changes of the winds and the magical creatures and places of Athel Loren. Once this was noticed they'd probably be apprenticed to an existing wizard to teach them the basics and figure out which magical lore they're most attuned to and perform the rituals binding them to the magical forest.

Once they had the basics down and their affinity had been identified they'd likely be apprenticed to a specific wizard who's an expert in the same lore and start learning real spells. The exact nature of the training at this point would depend on their lore, but it would likely involve time spent exploring in parts of Athel Loren rich in the winds of magic, talking to forest spirits that know the lore and similar things, as opposed to reading books and being beaten with rulers when they stumble over incantations like the high elves or humans.


Ariel is involved in teaching wizards to some extent, but if she teaches every wizard or just particularly notable ones is a mystery to me.

[Forum Explorer]

Also I think I started thinking about this because I remembered my idea of how a dwarf woman legendary lord in Total War Warhammer could be fluffed if they decided to make something up. Basically an aging matriarch who has had many husbands, many brothers, and many sons all dead. And after so many she got fed up and decided to take her long list of grudges into her own hands.

For some reason, I think Dwarves typically only have one spouse. I'm not sure if I made that up, or if that's something I picked up somewhere. But I think dwarves just don't remarry.

Also I don't think that's particularly notable. Last old dwarf of a clan going out and settling grudges is the basis of a lot of fantasy dwarves.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

A wood elf wizard would be noticed by their kin as having a greater affinity for magic than the normal wood elves, a greater sensitivity to the changes of the winds and the magical creatures and places of Athel Loren. Once this was noticed they'd probably be apprenticed to an existing wizard to teach them the basics and figure out which magical lore they're most attuned to and perform the rituals binding them to the magical forest.

Once they had the basics down and their affinity had been identified they'd likely be apprenticed to a specific wizard who's an expert in the same lore and start learning real spells. The exact nature of the training at this point would depend on their lore, but it would likely involve time spent exploring in parts of Athel Loren rich in the winds of magic, talking to forest spirits that know the lore and similar things, as opposed to reading books and being beaten with rulers when they stumble over incantations like the high elves or humans.

Ariel is involved in teaching wizards to some extent, but if she teaches every wizard or just particularly notable ones is a mystery to me.

Now THIS is the kind of information I was looking for! Thank you!

Given the backstory I'm writing has the character come from Laurelorn (which recently got a LOT more detail from the new Archives of the Empire book that makes me INCREDIBLY happy!) rather than Athel Loren itself, I imagine learning under Ariel herself would be something more like a long-term goal for them, a reason for them to "ride off into the sunset" after the campaign's climax.

[comicshorse]

Ariel is involved in teaching wizards to some extent, but if she teaches every wizard or just particularly notable ones is a mystery to me.

She gives the speech on Graduation Day

Posted by Archpaladin Zoushua

If I'm playing WFRP and my character is a Wood Elf Wizard, how do I describe how he became a Wizard when writing his backstory?

I'm thinking draw inspiration from Luke training with Yoda in 'The Empire Strikes Back', or from any number of Kung Fu movies . You are taken with the old master, alone into the forest to study the ebb and flow of its magics and unlock the abilities within you. A time of quiet meditation where you learn to become in tune with the forest

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm thinking draw inspiration from Luke training with Yoda in 'The Empire Strikes Back'. You are taken with the old master, alone into the forest to study the ebb and flow of its magics and unlock the abilities within you

Ooh, I like this idea, especially since in order to advance in the Wizard career in WFRP you have to get an apprentice of your own at some point! Skywalker even sounds like an epithet a Wood Elf might take!

On a related note for High Elves, the White Tower of Hoeth isn't the ONLY place High Elf wizards come from, right? It's like the MIT or Harvard of magic, but only the real try-hards like the Loremasters and of course Teclis get their education there?

[LansXero]

Why can't dwarf women be exceptional individuals?

Females? sure. Old lived-her-entire-life-as-matriarch ones though? hard sell. There is a reason 'exceptional individuals' are such: they train from a very young age / amongst their elite, divine intervention, affinity to magic, wartime experience, etc. You're not describing such a woman, you're describing a lifelong housewive suddenly thrown into active warzones. Angry, sure, but unlikely to be more than a casualty.

I would first assume that dwarf clans would include multiple families some of higher status than others. Other possible leaders could be from lower or more distant families leaving leadership in a state of uncertainty. And if this moment of uncertainty happens during a time of crisis then the Queen may take on more authority than would normally be expected of her.

Wars, and this is a huge part of the setting, are won on logistics first. A clan that keeps losing members and having such horrendous losses that their leadership keeps dying off will just be folded into a bigger, stronger one because those resources are better spent that way than keeping up the 'independence' of a provenly unviable combat unit. Why would you let them waste more troops, armor, weapons, serfs, etc. when better leadership can put all that to better use?

Perhaps she was originally from a family which made its fortune dealing with humans while at the same time leaving them somewhat dissconected from standard kinship networks. Eventually the family was able to arrange a marriage between themselves and the kinsman of the King of an impoverished clan. Things happened eventually leading to her husband becoming King. And because of who died when she ends up in control of her families fortune giving her the opportunity to grab control of the clan by their long and bushies

Armor isn't forged on its own. Weapons, food, routes, etc. are a huge part of the long, mostly boring descriptions for campaigns on the setting. A rogue 'unique and special' clan will likely die to the last alone and unsupported when the next waagh rolls into town, because regardless of their individual pluck, you cant fight on an empty stomach with ruined armor and weapons.

[Wraith]

For some reason, I think Dwarves typically only have one spouse. I'm not sure if I made that up, or if that's something I picked up somewhere. But I think dwarves just don't remarry.

Also I don't think that's particularly notable. Last old dwarf of a clan going out and settling grudges is the basis of a lot of fantasy dwarves.

I think there is scope for widowers to remarry, though I couldn't think of anything specific that said it definitely happened.

Dwarf women are outnumbered by males by approximately 4 to 1, and at the same time their status is only ever has high as that of their husband. That is why dowries are common; Dwarf woman are in a position to be very, very picky about their spouse. Similarly, it is mandatory to marry outside of their own Clan in order to create strong ties of alliance and to prevent inbreeding, with some exceptions made for royalty who have more freedom to keep their ties exclusively royal if they prefer. Female dwarfs have all the cards in hand, when it comes to deciding upon nuptials.

Quite notably, Dwarf women also start to get married around the age of majority (30 years) whereas menfolk wait until later, around 70 or more. Similarly, Dwarf women live on average 4 times longer than men. So, if a female Dwarf marries relatively young to a male who is older, and she is very, very likely to outlive him anyway, and child-bearing women are in very high demand... It makes more sense that Dwarf women having second husbands is even more likely than in humans.

And all of the above is assuming that all Dwarfs share the same values, which they don't. Expatriate Dwarfs are a thing - they're essentially Dwarfs who have been forced to abandon their Holds and live more like humans, as 'Flatlanders', which by necessity means that they have given up or abandoned many of their ancestors' traditions. In which case, marriage and the associated formality are among the first to go, and Expatriate women are just as likely to be adventurers as the males for example. Second husbands probably wouldn't be at all remarkable, if that's what they wanted to go for.

[Grytorm]

Nods. All very interesting. The impression I get is a character that solves all current objections is possible but putting in the effort to do so here wouldn't be a productive use of time.

As for the dwarf marriage customs where are you getting that info from... I misread the last post slightly. Because I know the term bride price I tend to read dowry as money/gifts going with the bride not things flowing the other way.