Please check my riddle

[WrittenInBlood]

Hi Playgrounders,

I made up this riddle for my next session, but i'm not entirely sure it's watertight and really have only one solution. I'm afraid I have missed something. So, if you are into some brain stretching, here it is.

There are 3 guardian statues – Brass, Silver and Iron. Only one of them has the key to the gate. One speaks the truth, another one always lies, and the last one is a trickster that does both.
Brass: “I have the key, and Silver is a liar”
Silver: “I don’t have the key, and Iron is a trickster”
Iron: “I don’t have the key, and Brass is a liar”

Spoiler: Answer

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The Iron one has the key

Spoiler: Thought process

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There's always an assumption at the start of a bullet point. Note that "is not a liar" does not necessarily mean "speaks truth", because of the third option (some fuzzy logic here). Contradictions are marked with formatting. Correct assumptions are bolded.

1. Bronze speaks truth; it means key is on Bronze, Silver is a liar; it means key is on Silver, Iron is not a trickster
2. Silver speaks truth; it means key is not on Silver, Iron is a trickster; it means Bronze is a liar, key is on Iron ; it means key is not on Bronze, Silver does not lie
3. Iron speaks truth; it means key is not on Iron, Bronze is a liar; it means key is not on Bronze, Silver is a trickster; it means key is on Silver, Iron is a trickster
4. Bronze is a liar; it means key is not on Bronze, Silver speaks truth; it means key is not on Silver, Iron is a trickster; it means Bronze is a liar, key is on Iron
5. Silver is a liar; it means key is on Silver, Iron is not a trickster; it means Iron speaks truth; it means key is not on Iron, Bronze is a liar
6. Iron is a liar; it means key is on Iron, Bronze does not lie; it means
   
   1. Bronze speaks truth; it means key is on Bronze
   2. Bronze is a trickster; it means Silver is a liar
   
   
7. Bronze is a trickster; it means
   
   1. key is on Bronze, Silver speaks truth; it means key is not on Silver, Iron is a trickster
   2. key is not on Bronze, Silver is a liar; it means key is on Silver, Iron is not a trickster; it means Iron speaks truth; it means key is not on Iron , Bronze is a liar
   
   
8. Silver is a trickster; it means
   
   1. key is not on Silver, Iron is not a trickster; it means
      
      1. Iron speaks truth; it means key is not on Iron , Bronze is a liar; it means key is not on Bronze, Silver speaks truth
      2. Iron is a liar; it means key is on Iron , Bronze speaks truth; it means key is on Bronze, Silver is a liar
      
      
   2. key is on Silver, Iron is a trickster
   
   
9. Iron is a trickster; it means
   
   1. key is not on Iron , Bronze does not lie; it means Bronze speaks truth; it means key is on Bronze, Silver is a liar; it means key is on Silver, Iron is not a trickster
   2. key is on Iron , Bronze is a liar; it means key is not on Bronze, Silver does not lie; it means Silver speaks truth; it means key is not on Silver, Iron is a trickster

[Kaptin Keen]

Looks good to me. Only concern is that I got the answer right in like .. 5 seconds. And while I'm clever as a squirrel, these types of things aren't my strong suit, so maybe it's just too simple =)

[MoiMagnus]

It is correct, and while it was fun to think about it, it is quite simple to solve.
But that's fine. Riddles don't need to challenge the players. In fact, riddles that are too challenging can be frustrating for some players, as they stop the game until someone find the answer.

Spoiler: Shorter though process

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1) If Brass has the key, then looking at the first half of each statement, nobody can be a liar. Contradiction.
2) If Silver has the key, then looking at the first half of each statement, Iron must say the truth. It follows that Brass is a liar. Since both half of Silver's statement are false, it follows that Silver is a liar too. Contradiction.
3) As a conclusion, Iron has the key. We check that it is correct: looking at the first half of each statement, Silver must say the truth. It follows that Iron is a trickster, and Brass is a liar.. Everything checks out.

[Wraith]

I must ask the question; what stop the party from listening to all the statues call each other liars, then decide that they ARE all liars and just try to smash them and take the key from the wreckage?

I'm assuming that's why they're made of solid metal, which a low level party probably doesn't have the means to meaningfully damage without extensive, concentrated effort, but it may be a possibility that they still want to try anyway so you might want to account for if they're on the more murderhobo-y end of the scale

And, are the statues interactive? Does the party know ahead of time that there is one liar, one trickster and one truthspeaker or do they have to ask questions in order to determine that for themselves? I honestly think that might make it a little TOO easy ("Okay, how many fingers am I holding up? Two? Okay, so you're definitely a liar....") so maybe just have them only repeat their mantras without responding to anything else?

[Dr paradox]

Sight unseen, my answer is that Brass doesn't have the key and is the liar, Silver has the key and is the trickster, and Iron doesn't have the key and is the truth-teller.

If Brass were correct that Silver was a liar, then Silver would be lying about not having the key. Since Brass CAN'T be telling the truth about both, Brass must be lying, and therefore either the trickster or the liar, without the key.

Silver, meanwhile, claims that Iron is the trickster. However, if silver were telling the truth, that would make Iron the trickster and leaving Brass as the liar. However, if we assume Silver is telling the truth, then neither Silver nor Brass has the key, implying that Iron has it. Since Iron claims otherwise, we must assume that Iron is lying as the trickster. THAT can't be true, because it would mean that Iron is lying about Brass being the liar - which is the only way that Silver could be telling the truth about Iron being the trickster.

Since Silver then CAN'T be telling the truth, that means Silver is lying as either the Trickster or the Liar, meaning Silver has the key and Iron is the Truth-Teller. If iron is the Truth Teller, that confirms that neither Iron nor Brass have the key - since Iron would be truthfully calling Brass a liar.


Let me check my solution...


Ah, dammit. My assumption was that the Trickster is either telling all lies or all truths. I'd recommend spelling out a little more clearly what the trickster does.

My solution took about two minutes of work in my head, and about four minutes to put it into something explainable. I had a conclusion that was faulty under my logic that I was sure of until I went to write my explanation, so I'm curious what the method is for testing answers to this riddle. Does a wrong answer make the statues come to life and beat on the adventurers for a few rounds?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Okay, so I'm going to go through this assuming each statue is telling the truth and see if that gives me different answers.

Spoiler: If brass speaks the truth:

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Brass: “I have the key, and Silver is a liar”

So Silver is the liar.

Silver: “I don’t have the key, and Iron is a trickster”

Silver lies here, Iron isn't the trickster. However, Iron can't be the liar since Silver is and he can't be speaking the truth because Brass is, so error.

Spoiler: If Silver speaks the truth

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Silver: “I don’t have the key, and Iron is a trickster”

Okay, so that leaves Brass as the liar then, that's useful to know.

Brass: “I have the key, and Silver is a liar”

Brass is lying, so at this point Iron has the key and is the trickster.

Iron: “I don’t have the key, and Brass is a liar”

Normally someone who can just freely speak the truth or lie doesn't give me any information at all, but because this is a riddle and they all say two things I'll assume exactly one of those things has to be true, so if we say that "Brass is a liar" is true than "I don't have the key" is false, which confirms what the other two said. Iron has the key.

Spoiler: If Iron speaks the truth

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Iron: “I don’t have the key, and Brass is a liar”

Why is brass always the liar? Doesn't he have anything better to do?

Brass: “I have the key, and Silver is a liar”

So Silver has the key and is the trickster.

Silver: “I don’t have the key, and Iron is a trickster”

Making the same assumption as before this is another error. Silver would be lying about both things. However, we must make this assumption, otherwise this scenario is legit, and Silver could have the key.

So if you think about this as a riddle and make the immediate assumption that "is a trickster that does both" will mean they always tell one truth and one lie back to back it is easily solvable and potentially even a good role playing opportunity if someone is looking to spread some confusion. If they don't make that assumption there is a wrong answer to be found here. Then again, there's a whole group of people working on the problem, they'll probably get it. And you can always have them fight animated statues if they do manage to get it wrong. Guardian statues asking riddles are weird anyway. Who secures anything with a riddle? The whole point of a password is that it is impossible to guess, the whole point of a riddle is that everyone can work it out if they think about it well enough.

[WrittenInBlood]

Wow, that's some quick answers here :D

Good to know that there's no alternative valid solution. When i've focused on checking it from "who tells the truth" part, it appears that biting it form "who has the key" part is way faster.

For some clarity for those of you who asked: the statues are dormant Helmed Horrors (D&D 5e). Clues are written on their shields, and they are not interactable in other ways. Riddle rules are written on the wall nearby (in a more precise way than i presented here). To extract the key players have to fight the one who has it, attacking any other means fight with all three.

And it's fine you did not find it hard, the fact you liked it as it is is more important. For a group of 4-5 players I expect some more time for it to take, for necessary explanation from those who get it faster.

Thank you all!

[TheStranger]

I wouldn’t downplay the issue of the trickster always making a statement that includes both a truth and a lie. You need to make that 100% clear to your players. I initially interpreted your explanation as meaning that the trickster could make both true and false statements, so that I couldn’t assume anything about the truth of what it said (I didn’t take the time to see if I could solve the puzzle based on that). If your players make that same assumption, they’ll go down a rabbit hole of flawed logic and be angry when they get it wrong.

In these types of puzzles, using 100% unambiguous language is essential. Even if you think it’s clear, look for any possible other interpretation. It only takes one player to jump to the wrong conclusion and screw things up. In fact, if your players start discussing this and one of them interprets the rules in an unintended way that’s still remotely consistent with the wording you used, I’d stop them and correct the confusion OOC. Otherwise you’re going to end up arguing semantics instead of solving the actual puzzle.

[Xervous]

Having just run a riddle session last week even simple things will take the party 5 minutes as they bicker over interpretations, ask for the riddle again and otherwise hesitate. Simple riddle is good, but if you have the answer point them to the safe path through a known supreme hazard they’ll slow way down.

Might be good to play up the potential lethality for bungling the riddle.

[Jason]

I spotted the correct answer pretty quickly, and I think my group,would to.

[PrismCat21]

Your thought process doesn't quite match up with the riddle. You keep saying Bronze when the statue is really Brass. (Players will think there's something tricky going on if you make that mistake with them, instead if them just thinking you misspoke).
You noted that "is not a liar" does not necessarily mean "speaks truth", but the riddle doesn't say that. It says "is a liar". Same concept, but same problem as Brass/Bronze.

Precision on wordplay is key for riddles.

[Pex]

I agree to making it clear the Trickster tells one truth and one lie, in either order.

[Lorsa]

I really don't think you have to clear anything up in regards to the trickster. The riddle is fairly easily solvable as is, and has only one solution.

Basically, it is easy to see that Brass must be the liar and Silver the truthspeaker when comparing the two statements. Any other assignment runs into a contradiction. And since this knowledge is enough to determine that Iron must have the key it doesn't actually matter WHAT Iron is saying. Since we know his words are basically random nonsense anyway, we can disregard it and simply put the key in his hands based on Brass and Silver.

So, as a logic puzzle, it works well.

[Jay R]

I recommend that you have each one make two different statements.

The problem is that in logic, the statement "A and B" is false if A is false, or if B is false, even if the other one is true.

On that basis, one solution is that Iron is the trickster, Silver is the truthteller, and Brass is the liar with the key. The complete statement "I have the key and Silver is a trickster" is a lie, even though half of it is true.

The simple fix is to make them separate statements:

Brass: “I have the key. Silver is a liar”
Silver: “I don’t have the key. Iron is a trickster”
Iron: “I don’t have the key. Brass is a liar”

[Duff]

I recommend that you have each one make two different statements.

The problem is that in logic, the statement "A and B" is false if A is false, or if B is false, even if the other one is true.

On that basis, one solution is that Iron is the trickster, Silver is the truthteller, and Brass is the liar with the key. The complete statement "I have the key and Silver is a trickster" is a lie, even though half of it is true.

The simple fix is to make them separate statements:

Brass: “I have the key. Silver is a liar”
Silver: “I don’t have the key. Iron is a trickster”
Iron: “I don’t have the key. Brass is a liar”

That's a good point. If your players are prone to formal logic, this could actually be needed to make the clues work for them

[canana]

To extract the key players have to fight the one who has it, attacking any other means fight with all three.

I like how you made it possible to move on with the game even if the players don't figure out the correct answer to the puzzle.

[Darth Tom]

Having seen all the "this is really simple" answers, I just want to say that it took me a few minutes and I had to write out all the statements. It was probably right on the edge of what I could solve myself rather than just kicking back and hoping someone else would rescue me. However, it was simple enough that I was able to puzzle it out, had fun doing so and felt really good about myself when I found I had the right answer.

Personally, I think it's good.