Is rogue a single or multi/dip into class?

[Spo]

Will be finishing up Mad Mage in a few months and I’m looking for another class to play with. I’ve been on a monk kick last couple of years playing a drunken to 3, open hand to 7, kensei to 8 and a shadow to 17 (so far).

Eyeing up the rogue class and was thinking of arcane trickster specifically. When planning him out, I find myself torn between going straight or Multi’ing into fighter For extra attack and some feats via ASI’s.

This got my thinking, I rarely see rogues being played and I have never seen a rogue played as a single class in tier 3 & 4.

Is there a reason for this or are my observations whacked?

[Yakk]

Rogues don't optimize great. And their main class is nearky 100% at-will. With short, big fights being more common than 100 encounter adventing day grinds, this places them at double disadvantage.

Like most classes, they suffer a back-10 problem; T3/4 has fewer nice toys per level than most T1 classes do.

About the only charop you can do is getting a second sneak attack, or some champion/hexblade elven accuracy crit fishing, or cantrip booming sneak attacks with mobile.

None of these compate to, say, a GWM Flametongue fighter.

Simplicity, optimal for uncommon encounter structure, and difficulty optimizing.

[JellyPooga]

Rogues are awesome. On paper they don't look like much to shout about, but in actual play they really shine. Tier 3/4, obviously spellcasters are throwing around the big noise, but Rogues are there taking advantage of that to great effect. They benefit massively from buffs, perhaps moreso than most.

Take Haste for example. On a Fighter or Barbarian, this is an extra attack. Woo. On a Rogue it's an extra Sneak Attack. That's significantly greater.

[CTurbo]

I like the 5e Rogue and it's a really solid solo class in the right hands. I will say that it is ironically a pretty complex class to play correctly. You have to really understand what it's about, it's rolls, strengths, and weaknesses. The base class gets interesting and useful features at nearly every level or two. Most of the subclasses get good to amazing features at levels 13 and 17.

That being said, Rogue is one of the easiest classes to multiclass with too. A few levels of Rogue adds a lot of useful things to every single class. On the flip side, there are many classes that can add a lot to a Rogue with just a few levels.

Fighter is a good mix with Rogue, but I prefer Ranger for 3-5 levels in most cases. Either Hunter or Gloom Stalker is pretty good ESPECIALLY if you can use the Revised version. For an Arcane Trickster, consider a few levels of Bladesinger Wizard if you can.

[Mr Adventurer]

Take Haste for example. On a Fighter or Barbarian, this is an extra attack. Woo. On a Rogue it's an extra Sneak Attack. That's significantly greater.

Oh? How's that?

[Hytheter]

Yeah, I agree with CTurbo's take. Rogue is perfectly solid on it's own, but it also multiclasses very readily and a lot of people find that tempting. I sure do. Cunning Action is great fun, and if you were going to make dex attacks anyway why not chuck a couple of d6s on top?

Oh? How's that?

Use one action to attack, then use the other to ready an attack for later. In case you aren't aware, Sneak Attack is once per turn but not once per round, so if it's someone else's turn you can trigger it again this way.

[Mr Adventurer]

Use one action to attack, then use the other to ready an attack for later. In case you aren't aware, Sneak Attack is once per turn but not once per round, so if it's someone else's turn you can trigger it again this way.

Ah, that way round. Yes, the limit on sneak attack was what made me ask the question :). Thanks

[MinotaurWarrior]

ATs are great.

Haste + Booming Blade SA = high DPR

Magical Ambush + Suggestion = high success SoS / Social dominance

Reliable Talent = succeeding at everything

Reliable Talent + MHL = enemy martials reduced to unarmed strikes

The best MC dip IMO is Chronurgist 2.

In general, everyone who doesn't get 9th level spells tends towards MC soup in 5e, but IMO unlike Barbarian or Ranger, rogues get something meaningful at every tier. I think you see more rogue MC'd because a player doesn't want to take level 11 of another martial than because they don't want level 11 of rogue.

[Morty]

Having played a rogue until level 6, there's not much to write home about. The best thing about the class is access to a variety of strong skills via Expertise. Everything else is pretty lukewarm and in combat they're one-trick ponies that make fighters look exciting. Multiclassing out of it once you've got what you wanted is probably a good idea; I haven't seen anything to suggest it gets better later.

[ff7hero]

Having played a rogue until level 6, there's not much to write home about. The best thing about the class is access to a variety of strong skills via Expertise. Everything else is pretty lukewarm and in combat they're one-trick ponies that make fighters look exciting. Multiclassing out of it once you've got what you wanted is probably a good idea; I haven't seen anything to suggest it gets better later.

Check out Reliable Talent. It's like a permanent Guidance that only kicks in when you need it.

[JellyPooga]

Having played a rogue until level 6, there's not much to write home about. The best thing about the class is access to a variety of strong skills via Expertise. Everything else is pretty lukewarm and in combat they're one-trick ponies that make fighters look exciting. Multiclassing out of it once you've got what you wanted is probably a good idea; I haven't seen anything to suggest it gets better later.

If you found Rogues to be a one-trick pony, you were missing out. Rogues have a lot of tricks up their sleeves, far more than just Sneak Attack, rinse and repeat. I like Rogues a little too much, granted (I've a reputation for it!), but Rogues do all the things that other combatants can't; few other classes can boast the ability to use a bonus action every turn. More than that, if you're playing a Rogue and you're not using your bonus action every turn there's a fair argument that you're literally playing Rogue wrong (one of the few instances I feel "you're playing wrong" is justified).

[Valmark]

ATs are great.

Haste + Booming Blade SA = high DPR

How does this combo in specific work? Seems the opposite to me- Haste wants you to stay in the fight and BB wants you to get out.

[Morty]

If you found Rogues to be a one-trick pony, you were missing out. Rogues have a lot of tricks up their sleeves, far more than just Sneak Attack, rinse and repeat. I like Rogues a little too much, granted (I've a reputation for it!), but Rogues do all the things that other combatants can't; few other classes can boast the ability to use a bonus action every turn. More than that, if you're playing a Rogue and you're not using your bonus action every turn there's a fair argument that you're literally playing Rogue wrong (one of the few instances I feel "you're playing wrong" is justified).

People keep saying that and it keeps sounding like wishful thinking. The only two things rogues can do with their bonus actions is running around quickly and hiding. Thieves can use items with it, but I didn't take that subclass. So 9 times out of 10, the optimal course of action was dashing to keep my distance, then hiding to secure sneak attack. Rinse, repeat. If I'd played a melee rogue, I would've spent those bonus actions disengaging instead.

Check out Reliable Talent. It's like a permanent Guidance that only kicks in when you need it.

I'm aware of Reliable Talent, yes. Probably the only worthwhile higher-level rogue feature.

[Ir0ns0ul]

How does this combo in specific work? Seems the opposite to me- Haste wants you to stay in the fight and BB wants you to get out.

You basically use Booming Blade with your main action, hopefully being able to proc SA damage with the attack. Then you Disengage with your bonus action (Cunning Action) and ready your extra action provided by Haste to attack off-turn and hopefully apply SA damage once again.

If the enemy somehow moved into melee range to reach you, he took +2d8 and probably will eat a new attack with SA one more time.

AT Rogue is by far one of the most versatile, reliable and (why not) durable “gish” warriors out there. You will not do the regular things most classes usually do in order to succeed, you have the powerful Rogue tools (Cunning Action, Sneak Attack) + Spells & Cantrips to ensure consistency to your damage & survivability. One good sample of that is the famous Mirror Image + Sentinel combo... by improving your defenses, you are also generating new ways to apply SA damage.

I would say the only outstanding weakness of a well played AT Rogue is Saving Throws, but you can circumvent that with feats or punctual multiclass (War Wizard 2 is my favorite).

EDIT: Just to fix the wrong tip I gave based on Haste. Anyway, you can still rock the world with upcasted Shadow Blade.

[MrStabby]

Will be finishing up Mad Mage in a few months and I’m looking for another class to play with. I’ve been on a monk kick last couple of years playing a drunken to 3, open hand to 7, kensei to 8 and a shadow to 17 (so far).

Eyeing up the rogue class and was thinking of arcane trickster specifically. When planning him out, I find myself torn between going straight or Multi’ing into fighter For extra attack and some feats via ASI’s.

This got my thinking, I rarely see rogues being played and I have never seen a rogue played as a single class in tier 3 & 4.

Is there a reason for this or are my observations whacked?

Rogues are a funny beast.

Pureclass rogues run into a problem that in T3+ there is usually someone else better able to solve their problems. Being a great scout is nice and all but when someone can sit down for 10 min and cast a divination ritual at no risk to provide the same information your special feature is worth a lot less. Generally this is the issue - most of what you could do is for a goal that a spell could equally well progress towards. At low levels this is less of an issue - spell slots, spells known/prepared, money for scrolls is limited so someone being able to do it for free is still really valuable...

Which just leaves your combat abilities. They are not negligable but they are not earth-shattering either. Unremarkably mediocre. They are fine but if you have any kind of optimised martial damage dealer in the party then they will be very much a second tier damage dealer.

Rogues just get squeezed from all sides really - out of combat problem solving bards to better. Stabbing things fighters do better.

I mean, it is possible to contrive situations where rogues are still useful. Someone set up a forbidance spell to stop adventurers from teleporting into a treasure vault but dispite access to high level magic you can get in with a few picked locks and don't need a thief with something like dispel magic. Or a door that needs to be opened but it must be quietly so you cant just turn into a giant ape and rip it of its hinges... and its in an antimagic field you you cant use silence... So yeah a rogue can work but it leads to the DM making a world that feels a little bit wierd and strange.

And on the fun side, rogues are not the best. In combat I find most turns are hide (or maybe disengage if melee focussed)/single attack without much variation unless you build to grapple/shove. Maybe an occasional dash. No battlemaster moves, no chosing what type of paladin smite to use, no deciding whether to fireball a group of enemies or to slow them... in practice I find even the barbarian is more varied as they decide whether to attack recklessly or not. This might not matter to some people though.


But... they do still get good abilities and these abilities compliment other classes nicely.

Sneak attack is a bit more damage, expertise is nice and really flavourful and great for building a character, cunning action is simply superb though on almost any class and uncanny dodge can make you really tanky. Rogue adds a lot as a dip to a character that has already found their niche.


I wouldn't say to never play a rogue, just stick with the low levels if you do, or if you are playing at higher levels avoid playing one in a party with any character that can have access to polymorph.

[elyktsorb]

The only advice I can give is that it mixes very poorly with druid in terms of offense. Great utility wise tho.

[Bobthewizard]

You basically use Booming Blade with your main action, hopefully being able to proc SA damage with the attack. Then you Disengage with your bonus action (Cunning Action) and ready your extra action provided by Haste to attack off-turn and hopefully apply SA damage once again.

I don't think this works. The extra action from Haste can't be used either to cast a cantrip or to ready an action.

"That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."

So you can ready your main action, then attack with the Hasted action for 2 sneak attacks, but you can't add booming blade onto it. Booming blade is still a great cantrip for an AT since you won't have haste on you every combat. Hit with booming blade, disengage, move back so they have to take the rider damage. They just don't work together.

[OldTrees1]

Will be finishing up Mad Mage in a few months and I’m looking for another class to play with. I’ve been on a monk kick last couple of years playing a drunken to 3, open hand to 7, kensei to 8 and a shadow to 17 (so far).

Eyeing up the rogue class and was thinking of arcane trickster specifically. When planning him out, I find myself torn between going straight or Multi’ing into fighter For extra attack and some feats via ASI’s.

This got my thinking, I rarely see rogues being played and I have never seen a rogue played as a single class in tier 3 & 4.

Is there a reason for this or are my observations whacked?

Rogues have great out of combat support which can push them to T3 without an issue. Expertise and Reliable Talent are really nice.

I did go Knowledge Cleric 1 / Arcane Trickster 14 so I could have Detect Magic and Identify as rituals, but single class Rogue is more than good enough out of combat.

In combat Rogues are great. You only need to land 1 hit per turn and you either have advantage or 2 attacks. So you are very reliable.

Your reasons for Fighter seem questionable.
I don't think Extra Attack is worthwhile on Rogue. You are trading away damage and in return you increase from 2d20 to 3d20. Usually that is a net loss.
Since Rogue's get their bonus ASI at 10th, multclassing Rogue/Fighter decreases or matches your ASIs until 20th.

[Mr Adventurer]

The only two things rogues can do with their bonus actions is running around quickly and hiding. Thieves can use items with it, but I didn't take that subclass. So 9 times out of 10, the optimal course of action was dashing to keep my distance, then hiding to secure sneak attack. Rinse, repeat. If I'd played a melee rogue, I would've spent those bonus actions disengaging instead.

Actually every subclass has something extra to do with Cunning Action (or otherwise as a bonus action), which is one of the ways the subclasses tend to lean into their archetype.

Playing an Arcane Trickster I find hiding to be an awkward way of getting sneak attack, though I have done it. The easiest by far is to attack enemies adjacent to an ally. Mobility from Cunning Action is invaluable in setting that up, whether in melee or in getting a clear shot at range.

[sayaijin]

I often play with people who don't optimise, so I may be a bit biased. I find that rogue is purposefully middle of the road in a lot of areas, and I like that because I can use the rogue to lead without outshining everyone else.

Once other players figure out what they're doing, their characters become more relevant, but until then rogue (especially AT) allows me to solve a lot of problems.

With most martials, your best bet is to mash the attack button, and that is still the go to with rogues, but the MHL from AT allows you to disarm enemies - grab a handful of arrows from that archer's quiver! If you have thief, get a good magic item or a healer's kit plus the healer feat. Both of these give you great options for your bonus action.

I think the biggest question with rogue is whether or not your DM will play to your strengths. As mentioned above, this is areas where stealth and skills are useful. If all their challenges can be better solved with magic or brute force, then you might be better off playing a different class.

[Valmark]

You basically use Booming Blade with your main action, hopefully being able to proc SA damage with the attack. Then you Disengage with your bonus action (Cunning Action) and ready your extra action provided by Haste to attack off-turn and hopefully apply SA damage once again.

If the enemy somehow moved into melee range to reach you, he took +2d8 and probably will eat a new attack with SA one more time.

As Bob said, you can't Ready nor Cast a Spell with your Hasted action- and obviously you can't do both with your normal action.

[elyktsorb]

Playing an Arcane Trickster I find hiding to be an awkward way of getting sneak attack, though I have done it.

It's less awkward when your a Lightfoot Halfling and can hide behind any of your medium allies for free.

[Morty]

Actually every subclass has something extra to do with Cunning Action (or otherwise as a bonus action), which is one of the ways the subclasses tend to lean into their archetype.

Playing an Arcane Trickster I find hiding to be an awkward way of getting sneak attack, though I have done it. The easiest by far is to attack enemies adjacent to an ally. Mobility from Cunning Action is invaluable in setting that up, whether in melee or in getting a clear shot at range.

I also focused on enemies adjacent to my allies when hiding wasn't an option. I was playing a scout, which I think was still UA material at the time. Of course, being unable to hide didn't exactly expand my options. "Keep my distance and shoot" was still the order of the day.

It doesn't surprise me that Arcane Trickster is the first and foremost way to make rogues less one-note, because if you want something interesting to do in 5E, you need spells.

[Xetheral]

People keep saying that and it keeps sounding like wishful thinking. The only two things rogues can do with their bonus actions is running around quickly and hiding. Thieves can use items with it, but I didn't take that subclass. So 9 times out of 10, the optimal course of action was dashing to keep my distance, then hiding to secure sneak attack. Rinse, repeat. If I'd played a melee rogue, I would've spent those bonus actions disengaging instead.

What subclass were you playing? [Edit: missed you saying Scout by a few minutes.] In addition to (as you mentioned) Thief being able to Use an Object as a bonus action, Arcane Tricksters can control their mage hand as a bonus action, Masterminds can help as a bonus action, and Swashbucklers can (eventually) give themselves advantage on grapple checks as a bonus action.

Also, it's easy to build a Rogue who can switch between ranged and melee at will, and with Uncanny Dodge they make great off-tanks against enemies with one big attack. This provides even more decision points as you get to decide on a round-by-round basis whether melee skirmishing, melee tanking, or ranged combat is the best tactic.

Personally I've found that Thief rogues can completely take the cake when it comes to the number of martial in-combat decision points. Between acid/fire/oil, caltrops, ball bearings, and (with the Healer feat) impressive healing, there is plenty of competition for the bonus action. They also multiclass extremely well, with Battlemaster fighter adding new options (and thus decision points) on top of what the Thief can already do (maneuvers can be used when throwing alchemy items as a bonus action, and Riposte is just incredible on any Rogue). Adding in a dip into spellcasting class (or taking a Thief dip on a spellcaster) also synergizes well, since Thief rogues can reliably get sneak attack on a bonus action that doesn't require taking the Attack Action, thus leaving the main action open for casting. (Bless or Faerie Fire are great spells available with a one-level dip that remain relevent the entire game.)

At the end of the day I can see how an Assassin rogue [edit: or a Scout] specialized in only ranged combat could end up playing more-or-less identically from turn to turn. But I don't think that's representative of the class as a whole. Instead, I think Rogue levels are a fantastic tool for building a martial character with a large number of round-by-round decision points.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I don't think this works. The extra action from Haste can't be used either to cast a cantrip or to ready an action.

"That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."

So you can ready your main action, then attack with the Hasted action for 2 sneak attacks, but you can't add booming blade onto it. Booming blade is still a great cantrip for an AT since you won't have haste on you every combat. Hit with booming blade, disengage, move back so they have to take the rider damage. They just don't work together.

You attack with your Haste action, and ready a spell with your normal action.

[Valmark]

You attack with your Haste action, and ready a spell with your normal action.

Then the Booming Blade doesn't trigger when the enemy moves.

[Morty]

At the end of the day I can see how an Assassin rogue [edit: or a Scout] specialized in only ranged combat could end up playing more-or-less identically from turn to turn. But I don't think that's representative of the class as a whole. Instead, I think Rogue levels are a fantastic tool for building a martial character with a large number of round-by-round decision points.

In other words, mixing rogue levels with other classes can work well, but a single-class rogue is going to be disappointing and get more so with levels. More or less what other people have been saying.

[JellyPooga]

The only advice I can give is that it mixes very poorly with druid in terms of offense. Great utility wise tho.

Moon Druid 2/ Rogue 2 with Mobile (from V.Human) can be remarkably scary on the offence. Entangle + Wild Shape on Turn 1, followed by a Bonus Action Dash and attack combo to kite the crap out of a target in following rounds; your speed is effectively more than quadrupled compared to your enemy because they're dealing with difficult terrain and you're operating at double an increased speed. If both you and your foe have a base speed of 30ft, they can move 15ft to your 80ft...and that's assuming you haven't Wild Shaped into something faster.

A lot of Druid shenanigans involve terrain manipulation which the Rogue is singularly well suited to take advantage of. How about Spike Growth, Wild Shape into a form suited for grappling, plus Expertise in Athletics and Bonus Action Dash? How about using summoned allies to proc Sneak Attack? Most of these things are better with one Druid and one Rogue character, but there's really no reason why it wouldn't work on a single multiclass build.

Druids, as a single class, make remarkably good roguish types and multiclassed with actual Rogue only doubles down on it. I've long wanted the opportunity to play a Rogue/Druid...sounds like a blast to me.

[Valmark]

Moon Druid 2/ Rogue 2 with Mobile (from V.Human) can be remarkably scary on the offence. Entangle + Wild Shape on Turn 1, followed by a Bonus Action Dash and attack combo to kite the crap out of a target in following rounds; your speed is effectively more than quadrupled compared to your enemy because they're dealing with difficult terrain and you're operating at double an increased speed. If both you and your foe have a base speed of 30ft, they can move 15ft to your 80ft...and that's assuming you haven't Wild Shaped into something faster.

A lot of Druid shenanigans involve terrain manipulation which the Rogue is singularly well suited to take advantage of. How about Spike Growth, Wild Shape into a form suited for grappling, plus Expertise in Athletics and Bonus Action Dash? How about using summoned allies to proc Sneak Attack? Most of these things are better with one Druid and one Rogue character, but there's really no reason why it wouldn't work on a single multiclass build.

Druids, as a single class, make remarkably good roguish types and multiclassed with actual Rogue only doubles down on it. I've long wanted the opportunity to play a Rogue/Druid...sounds like a blast to me.

How are you getting 80 ft. Of movement? With the Dash and the difficult terrain you have like, 30 feet to your enemy's 15- and if you are dashing unless your Wild Shape has reach (none early I think) you are still triggerint AoOs.

Even worst with Spike Growth until you get flying forms- how many of those are good for grappling?

[Xetheral]

In other words, mixing rogue levels with other classes can work well, but a single-class rogue is going to be disappointing and get more so with levels. More or less what other people have been saying.

That's not what I said. I said that I can see why two of the subclasses, if single-classed, might get boring if they are built to focus only on ranged combat.

I think any Rogue can be built to have a large number of decision points, even if single-classed. Some subclasses have more decision points built-in (particularly Thief), and multiclassing can increase the number of decision points even further.

So no, even though it's possible to build a disappointing rogue, I can't agree that a single-class rogue is necessarily going to be disappointing.