Paladin abilities overpowered? What do you think.

[Drascin]

Nah. Paladin is strong, certainly, and it can nova like hell on a biscuit, but that's generally all it does. It smites people real good, and with some oaths provides some helpful passives to the party. And it's really an extremely pigeonholed class. It's really quite noticeable how I've seen three paladins played, by three different people, all three of which were extremely different people in personality, RP, and appearance, and yet when initiative started you could have interchanged them but for the unique effects of their divinity channels, because they were all doing the same things in the same order. It's not quite as bad as Rogues, who often could just leave a paper reading "I sneak attack whatever the Fighter is attacking" on their spot at the table and go play some Mario Kart as soon as initiative starts and keep about 90% of their effectiveness, but it's noticeable.

No, our yardstick here is stuff like Wizard, which gets a minimum of two new features every single level and a large chunk of them are individually on par with the stuff Paladin gets every several levels. Paladin ain't anywhere close to that level.

[MaxWilson]

Their abilities don't really scale that hard from Tier 2 to Tier 4 (okay, they get Greater Steed for permanent non-Concentration flight on Tier 3, which is a massive improvement)

Aside: relying on a Greater Steed for "permanent" flight is more dangerous than some people seem to realize.

[Eldariel]

Aside: relying on a Greater Steed for "permanent" flight is more dangerous than some people seem to realize.

Indeed. It's good to have backup options (and some Featherfall-type deal) and options in general. But it's still undeniably extremely powerful (there's the whole Share Spells part too, though that doesn't shine as hard on Pally in particular).

[MaxWilson]

Indeed. It's good to have backup options (and some Featherfall-type deal) and options in general. But it's still undeniably extremely powerful (there's the whole Share Spells part too, though that doesn't shine as hard on Pally in particular).

Spoiler: Beating a dead horse just in case anyone is interested

Show

Yeah, it's neither useless nor genuinely permanent. It's flight that lasts until your mount is killed by an attack or AoE, or mind-controlled/frightened and forced to give the enemy lots of opportunity attacks on you the rider, or grappled, or until you are shoved off the mount (either via Athletics, or by Repelling Blast, or some kind of spell like Gust or Telekinesis). It basically becomes a big hole in your defenses, if you aren't prepared to give it up and fight without it.

Paladin auras can help somewhat by boosting some of these saves, and Mounted Combatant can help with others by preventing attacks and mitigating Dex-based AoEs, but even with a +5 Paladin aura, a Griffon (for example) still has only +4 to Charisma saves and +6 to Wisdom saves, compared to the paladin's own +16 Charisma save and +12ish Wisdom save, and only 59 HP with which to resist a 45 HP cold blast from a CR 6 Young White Dragon's breath weapon (Con save, so Mounted Combatant won't help).

If you think of the mount as an expendable tool then it's awesome, but then the flight isn't permanent. If you think of the flight as permanent then you get a nasty surprise when it goes away in the middle of a fight with a beholder or whatever.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It's decent because compared to non-caster classes they get all sorts of cool stuff like you mentioned. They can also smite with those slots and do a lot of damage while being pretty solid utility-wise and overall just fine. Their abilities don't really scale that hard from Tier 2 to Tier 4 (okay, they get Greater Steed for permanent non-Concentration flight on Tier 3, which is a massive improvement) though; they don't really become a different class like with e.g. a Sorcerer who learns Wish or a Wizard who learns Simulacrum or a Druid who learns Shapechange or a Bard who learns True Polymorph. That is to say, they're decent in that they're pretty much dead at the middle of the power curve. They can't break the limits of the game and enter high tier environments or take high tier actions. They can, however, do what they can do on Tier 2 a bit better and comparatively they get more of the "cool stuff other classes can't access" than most martials.

"Comparatively lacking" thus comes from the fact that the game has 6* classes who can cast one of the best 9th level spells in the game to the tune of Shapechange/True Polymorph/Wish. There are other good ones of course. But the difference between what a Paladin gains on these levels and what a full caster gets is just absurd. Same goes for 6th-8th level spells: Paladin plays catch-up and keeps falling further behind. 6th+ level spells are game changing and many have long duration effects. Even something as simple as Planar Binding from a 6th+ level slot is huge compared to the 5th level slot version. Similarly many of the higher level summon spells and especially stuff like Simulacrum, Contingency, Magic Jar, etc. but also Conjure Celestial and company. These classes get things that truly alter the paradigm as they level while Paladins do not. Or Paladins do but they get these classes' Tier 2-3 toys on Tier 3-4. So they're a bit over a full Tier behind and as such will never really breach the Tier 4 barrier.

I wouldn't mind engaging in a multiverse-spanning 1v1 with Zariel (barring the infernal organization as such; obviously hells have far worse things than Zariel available but if we think about the characters, it isn't really problematic) as a level 13 Wizard but I'd never try it as a level 13 Paladin. I might have a remote shot in a direct confrontation as a Paladin (while Wizard is certainly favoured) but unlike Wizard, Paladin doesn't get strategic mobility, prep ability, minionmancy, information gathering divination, etc. on these levels yet. Paladin is just a ball of stats that's tough to take on the battlefield.


* Cleric is special in that only one of the Cleric Domains (Arcana) can actually cast game-shattering 9th level spells. Astral Projection and Gate are undeniably powerful but not quite as easy and powerful as Wish/Shapechange/True Polymorph as they require jumping through extra hoops to do stuff, and while True Resurrection and Mass Heal are defensively immensely powerful spells, they don't reach the same level of game-world altering power-increasing as the top 9th level options.

OK, but in consideration of all this would your optimized tier 4 party include a Paladin or just 4-5 full casters?

[Eldariel]

OK, but in consideration of all this would your optimized tier 4 party include a Paladin or just 4-5 full casters?

Depends on how many characters it'd have. I might include a Pally in a party of like 6 (or a Sorcadin with 6-7 levels in Pally) but probably not with fewer characters than that, and even there I'd be hardpressed to pick it over another Bard or Sorcerer or Wizard (though Pally 2 for bursting things down as a dip isn't impossible deeper into Tier 4 but faces stiff competition in Fighter 2; I'm always ultimately a bit torn on how much I really care about focusing on damage when incidental damage especially with 9th level spells on the table can already easily be in excess of 100 points per round per character vs. top tier AC). Lore Bards & Eloquence Bards stack beautifully and Sorcs have cool stuff on this level and Wizards are still Wizards; getting to use multiple full power illusionists is extreme resource conservation as all their stuff is basically permanent except for Mirage Arcana meaning they can solve most things without resorting to spell slots.

Pally auras are sweet but you can get blanket immunity to many things through casting which makes them slightly less useful and more importantly, Pally being unable to make their own Simulacrums and Contingencies and minions and such is such a drag comparatively.

[FabulousFizban]

Paladin is a very strong class, and the best class to solo the game with (yeah yeah cleric and druid, i know), but it is not over-powered. It is tightly designed, and does everything it should.

[Whit]

Paladin

Level 1 Lay hands heal 5 per lvl and or cure disease or poison at 1/2 your level per day
Just saying disease/poison is little to much.

Lvl 3 immune to disease.

Lvl 6. Aura protection 10’ radius, cha mod between +2,3,4 to all saves for you and allies. Constant.

Lvl 7 aura warding resistance to damage spells 10’ radius for you and allies. Constant.

That’s bonus to saves for 1/2 damage and also resistance for another 1/2
So a meteor swarm 20d6 fire and 20d6 Bludgeoned would be 10d6 and 10d6 with Save, Then rolled 3x5 + 4x5 + 3x5 + 4x5 = 70 and then resistance 35

Cone of cold 8d8 saved is 4d8 rolled 4x4 is 16 and then 8

When you add aura protection as a constant and can be increase by cha mod
And add it to a friendly radius

And more so add aura warding to give magic damage resistance as a constant is massive.
And add it to a friendly Radius.


Yes there are ways to get around with other non Damaging spells. And yes a globe of Invulnerability can do do much def also , but it is limited by spell slots and time restraints where the Pali has basically a free ring of Protection + 2,3,4 at lvl 6 and a free magic damage resistance item. At lvl 7.

Even the massive divination wizard with 2 portents at level 2 are limited to 2x a day with random rolls.

How many other classes or sub classes get a Constant bonus to attack or defense at lvl 6 or 7 or at lower level that compares to the Paladin lvl 6 or 7.

Even the lvl 2 action surge is limited in use and not constant

[ProsecutorGodot]

Even the massive divination wizard with 2 portents at level 2 are limited to 2x a day with random rolls.

How many other classes or sub classes get a Constant bonus to attack or defense at lvl 6 or 7 or at lower level that compares to the Paladin lvl 6 or 7.

Even the lvl 2 action surge is limited in use and not constant

The fact that Paladin's do many things well doesn't really warrant an always direct comparison. There are many aspects of play that a Paladin won't do as well as another class.

They're not a full caster, so their problem solving abilities are limited. They're not as good at healing as Druid's and Clerics, most not able to blast large swathes of enemies where a Wizard and Sorcerer shine, and they're not the best at diplomacy when compared to a Rogue or Bard.

They have many strengths, but so do the other classes. Damage and Damage Resistance aren't the only metric for effectiveness.

[Whit]

True. But that would other things. Here we are talking about class level abilities.

Each class and sub classes get them regardless of fighter or spell caster.

Which classes have a comparable paladin lvl 6 passive ability or sub class ability like ancient.

How many class or sub class ability weather an attack , defense or utility at any level 1-7 That is close to the usefulness of a paladin and ancient passive which can also be used by others in a 10’

[ProsecutorGodot]

True. But that would other things. Here we are talking about class level abilities.

Each class and sub classes get them regardless of fighter or spell caster.

Which classes have a comparable paladin lvl 6 passive ability or sub class ability like ancient.

How many class or sub class ability weather an attack , defense or utility at any level 1-7 That is close to the usefulness of a paladin and ancient passive which can also be used by others in a 10’

There are plenty of useful abilities gained at that level, but they're useful for different things. Full casters are gaining third and fourth level spells, Monk's are getting automatically magical fists, evasion is effectively granting Rogues (and Monks) immunity to damaging effects that require Dex saves.

I think these are all very useful things, and it's not an exhaustive list either, I'm sure others would have more to add.

Unless I'm grossly misunderstanding your stance here, you're suggesting that every class should have a direct and obvious comparable ability to a Paladin's Aura... which I don't really agree with, and I don't think it's fair to suggest that no other class has powerful abilities at this level range.

[Whit]

In fact I would love to see a YouTube video ranking the class features.

Anyway. Good replies on the post.


No need to beat it any further

[Eldariel]

Paladin

Level 1 Lay hands heal 5 per lvl and or cure disease or poison at 1/2 your level per day
Just saying disease/poison is little to much.

This isn't meaningfully better than curative magic until much higher levels, which generally aren't even the best spells to be casting unless you're picking up an ally. A solid ability, but quite a bit weaker than full spellcasting.

Lvl 3 immune to disease.

A fringe ability, but strong when it matters. Ultimately I wouldn't consider this worth noting compared to 2nd level spells.

Lvl 6. Aura protection 10’ radius, cha mod between +2,3,4 to all saves for you and allies. Constant.

A great ability, but constantness is easy to overstate: you only need it when enemies are forcing actually important saves on you, the value of which is highly dependent on campaign. Often though you probably won't fight dangerous save-or-X effects in all that many encounters each day. Which means a 2/LR ability might actually accomplish the same thing on many days (not all, of course; there's some value to it being constant and most non-constant effects have an action cost for activation); though of course even 2/LR "+3-+5 to saves for all allies within 10' radius" would be very strong. Still, this + 2nd level spells is competing with casters' 3rd level spells and any possible class features on these levels, which I don't think is necessarily all that automatically favourable to Paladin.

Again, a very strong ability but more "OP" compared to many martial than basic caster abilities.

Lvl 7 aura warding resistance to damage spells 10’ radius for you and allies. Constant.

That’s bonus to saves for 1/2 damage and also resistance for another 1/2
So a meteor swarm 20d6 fire and 20d6 Bludgeoned would be 10d6 and 10d6 with Save, Then rolled 3x5 + 4x5 + 3x5 + 4x5 = 70 and then resistance 35

Cone of cold 8d8 saved is 4d8 rolled 4x4 is 16 and then 8

Same as above. Great ability, but the constantness is easy to overstate. It's also campaign dependent in that it needs for you to fight spellcasters specifically instead of most monsters to get value out of it (but of course, as PCs are particularly vulnerable to AOE damage and huddling together for aura of protection further exacerbates), but if you get hit by Web/Slow/Hypnotic Pattern/Fear/Watery Sphere/whatever instead of Fireball, it's far less impressive. Of course, Aura of Protection helps there but even with that, some are like to fail if you're too close together; splitting up is often a better protection against such magic.

And here we're competing with fourth level spells which have doozies like Summon Greater Demon, Polymorph, Watery Sphere, Banishment, etc. Which are all massive spells and greatly expand your problem-solving, power and offense. And of course plenty of other kinds of spells. So I think it's a strong ability but you can't switch it for a "counter breath weapons" or "counter melee beaters" or "make allies deal tons more damage" daily which ultimately means it'll be great on some days and useless on others and generally somewhere between these two extremes. Spell preparation is ultimately better: all of this (plus especially Pally casting and Smites) are what I believe makes Pally better than non-casters on average (of course this is for the average campaign, not any specific campaign so such consideration can vary even though Pally is strong).

[NorthernPhoenix]

IMO something is "overpowered" if it makes you have to beef up the default monster statblocks. In many cases, Paladin does qualify.

[cutlery]

How many other classes or sub classes get a Constant bonus to attack or defense at lvl 6 or 7 or at lower level that compares to the Paladin lvl 6 or 7.

The saves boost is great; but how many paladins do you need in a a party?

[stoutstien]

IMO something is "overpowered" if it makes you have to beef up the default monster statblocks. In many cases, Paladin does qualify.

Eh. Mostly knee jerk in my experience. Pally are only a real issue if the encounter was bad to start with.

[MaxWilson]

Eh. Mostly knee jerk in my experience. Pally are only a real issue if the encounter was bad to start with.

Shepherd Druids on the other hand...

[stoutstien]

Shepherd Druids on the other hand...

Hehe. I really want to play one but haven't due to just how jarring they can be to a game.

[MaxWilson]

Hehe. I really want to play one but haven't due to just how jarring they can be to a game.

There's also some tension there between the written fluff ("I want to protect and cuddle animals") and the implicit fluff ("I use animals as expendable heat-seeking missiles and meatshields to hide behind").

[stoutstien]

There's also some tension there between the written fluff ("I want to protect and cuddle animals") and the implicit fluff ("I use animals as expendable heat-seeking missiles and meatshields to hide behind").

Aye. Druids and rangers have that feeling in general to me.

[Valmark]

There's also some tension there between the written fluff ("I want to protect and cuddle animals") and the implicit fluff ("I use animals as expendable heat-seeking missiles and meatshields to hide behind").

My current Sheperd Druid's backstory is pretty much "got natural spirits shoved up his etc. And is pretty pissed by it".

Which means that anybody that pisses him off usually meets a gruesome end that nobody in the party likes to watch.

So he does like to cuddle animals- but hates natural spirits.

[OldTrees1]

Aye. Druids and rangers have that feeling in general to me.

Random thought:
What if Druids and Rangers had a bunch of utility animals but their class features allowed them to protect those animals. It would become a non combat ability instead of a combat ability but would affect that feeling you are getting.

"Doggo has a keen nose, and I protect doggo when enemies attack" instead of "Doggo, go die to buy me a few more seconds"

[MaxWilson]

Random thought:
What if Druids and Rangers had a bunch of utility animals but their class features allowed them to protect those animals. It would become a non combat ability instead of a combat ability but would affect that feeling you are getting.

"Doggo has a keen nose, and I protect doggo when enemies attack" instead of "Doggo, go die to buy me a few more seconds"

From a fluff perspective, I think that would align the mechanics with the fluff, eliminating one source of aggravation. From a gameplay perspective though, getting attached to actual, specific animals is a lot like being on a permanent NPC escort mission, and possibly quite stressful. Those protection features might have to be implausibly strong (a la the new (Tasha's) Drake Warden's ability to apparently bring his dragon friend back from the dead pretty much at will), and that would be bad for fluff in a different way.

Given that the promise of D&D is all about violence, I think it's the fluff that needs to change: "protect and cuddle animals" is just not good fluff for a game promising that all the important problems in life can be (but don't have to be) solved with sufficient force, if you want to, which you probably will.

Honestly I think Moon Druids have enough "guardians of the wild" flavor already. Shepherd Druids have no need to exist.

[stoutstien]

From a fluff perspective, I think that would align the mechanics with the fluff, eliminating one source of aggravation. From a gameplay perspective though, getting attached to actual, specific animals is a lot like being on a permanent NPC escort mission, and possibly quite stressful. Those protection features might have to be implausibly strong (a la the new (Tasha's) Drake Warden's ability to apparently bring his dragon friend back from the dead pretty much at will), and that would be bad for fluff in a different way.

Given that the promise of D&D is all about violence, I think it's the fluff that needs to change: "protect and cuddle animals" is just not good fluff for a game promising that all the important problems in life can be (but don't have to be) solved with sufficient force, if you want to, which you probably will.

Honestly I think Moon Druids have enough "guardians of the wild" flavor already. Shepherd Druids have no need to exist.

Druids in a nutshell. Huge chunk of player option wrapping in a very narrow fluff aream IMO should have been a split up into different subclasses and passed out to the other classes like cleric domain and oath of ancient. why not make something like that for all the classes. Hmm druid inspired rogue subclass.

[Angelalex242]

Paladins are just right. They're holy badasses that excel at single combat target and boss killing...and DPS if they Nova, which, because they generally save it for the boss, they tend to do.

If you want AOE, or Ranged combat, that's someone else's job, for the most part.

They also make effective tanks when they're not smiting, and should generally be built with tanking in mind for general encounters.

[Indoran]

Paladins are great in 5e (finally!)

But they're not OP

this!

Paladins have been meh in other editions. they have good things but they can be countered with a bit of planning.

And not every paladin is an oath of the ancients.

[KorvinStarmast]

IMO something is "overpowered" if it makes you have to beef up the default monster statblocks. In many cases, Paladin does qualify.

For the 5 minute adventure day. The Monsters are already big old bags of hit points to start with.

A note in the side discussion regarding animals: Rangers and Druids summon fey or celestial spirits that take on the form of wolves/bears/Giant Snakes, etc.

No actual animals are harmed.

You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can
see within range...Each beast is also considered fey, and it disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends.

It occurs to me that the Ancients Paladin's channel divinity might work against them.

Paladins are just right. They're holy badasses that excel at single combat target and boss killing...and DPS if they Nova, which, because they generally save it for the boss, they tend to do.

If you want AOE, or Ranged combat, that's someone else's job, for the most part.

They also make effective tanks when they're not smiting, and should generally be built with tanking in mind for general encounters.

This is a nice summary.

[KorvinStarmast]

Level 1 Lay hands heal 5 per lvl and or cure disease or poison at 1/2 your level per day

Incorrect.

Alternatively, you can expend 5 hit points from your pool of healing to cure the target of one disease or neutralize one poison affecting it.

Since you get 5 HP per level, that is 1 poison or disease per level as an alternate to healing.

Just saying disease/poison is little to much.

No, it isn't.
See? We both have an opinion. Your assertion is unsupported.

Lvl 3 immune to disease.

Situationally useful.

Lvl 6. Aura protection 10’ radius, cha mod between +2,3,4 to all saves for you and allies. Constant.

Providing that they are in range; if they stay bunched up, they are subject to AoE spells, in which cast they'll need those boosts to saves ... a mixed blessing, but since this game works best when played as a team, it's nice that they have a team support skill. That's a good thing.

A word on class design: this feature seems to be a fusion of the original Paladin from AD&D 1e, if Paladin had a holy sword, and video game Paladin auras. (I am thinking of things like WoW and Diablo II)
Here's what it looked like originally:

Paladins of 8th level and above dispel evil (spells, undead, evil enchanted monsters, and the like) simply by ordering it hence, and they detect all evil at a range of 6"{60 feet in OD&D scale} Paladins with any form of "Holy Sword" are virtually immune to all magic (see MONSTERS & TREASURE, MAGIC & TREASURE, Swords).

It's been toned down since, needless to say. (They had themselves a raw +2 to all saves from level 1)

Lvl 7 aura warding resistance to damage spells 10’ radius for you and allies. Constant.

Ancients. Nice feature. One of the best in the game. See above for the tactical conesquences of bunching up. The Other Paladin oaths do not have this, however.

Yes there are ways to get around with other non Damaging spells. And yes a globe of Invulnerability can do do much def also , but it is limited by spell slots and time restraints where the Pali has basically a free ring of Protection + 2,3,4 at lvl 6 and a free magic damage resistance item. At lvl 7.

Yes. Paladins have always had features that help themselves and their allies counter magic; that's been with the class since it was first published in 1975.

If I were going to be in a campaign that lasts the usual 11 or 12 levels, would I pick a paladin or a Fighter? That's difficult to say, since Paladin is a mostly "long rest" class and Fighter is very much a "short rest" class, so I'd need to know if the DM believes in using short rests or not.

If yes, I'd probably go fighter, and most likely Battle Master since I like to be able to shape the battlefield, and maneuvers help me do that.

If no I'd likely go paladin since the third attack for the fighter comes on line late in the campaign, and the short rest benefits of action surge and second wind would be less pronounced. Also, if I can save up my spell slots, I can go nova when the party needs that.
Also, the Paladin's spell casting can be helpful for reasons beyond going Nova, but that consideration is again matched against who else is in the party. If we already have a Bard and a Cleric, we don't need a Paladin's spells.

My choice would depend on who else is in the rest of the party.

Bottom Line: we are a party, not people in competition with one another.

[Corran]

Paladins are just right. They're holy badasses that excel at single combat target and boss killing...and DPS if they Nova, which, because they generally save it for the boss, they tend to do.

If you want AOE, or Ranged combat, that's someone else's job, for the most part.

They also make effective tanks when they're not smiting, and should generally be built with tanking in mind for general encounters.

This is a nice summary.

Not if they give them spirit guardians in Tasha's. Then they'll be amazing at dealing with melee hordes too. Not sure if that would be so terrible if spirit guardians was not (at least mechanically) a cleric's signature thingy.

It occurs to me that the Ancients Paladin's channel divinity might work against them.

I think so too, now that you mention it. Good catch.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Not if they give them spirit guardians in Tasha's.

Spirit Guardians was cut from the expanded spell list, or at least it appeared to be for the list featured in the last fantasy grounds preview.

Rightfully so, dealing with groups is one of the Paladin's recognizable weaknesses. Felt kind of dirty using it on my Paladin.