Paladin abilities overpowered? What do you think.

[KorvinStarmast]

Spirit Guardians was cut from the expanded spell list, or at least it appeared to be for the list featured in the last fantasy grounds preview.

Rightfully so, dealing with groups is one of the Paladin's recognizable weaknesses. Felt kind of dirty using it on my Paladin.

Of course, a Paladin 7 Lore Bard 6 could get spirit guardians via magical secrets, but at that point, CR 13-15 opponents, that might be an underwhelming choice.

Hmm: Can a Paladin 5 / Lore Bard 6 cast magical secrets Spirit Guardians? Yeah, I think so. Hmmm. If a BBEG is running a lot of minions, I can see this being quite useful.

[jaappleton]

Of course, a Paladin 7 Lore Bard 6 could get spirit guardians via magical secrets, but at that point, CR 13-15 opponents, that might be an underwhelming choice.

Hmm: Can a Paladin 5 / Lore Bard 6 cast magical secrets Spirit Guardians? Yeah, I think so. Hmmm. If a BBEG is running a lot of minions, I can see this being quite useful.

Unsure if its been mentioned but if your table allows the Ravnica backgrounds, Orzhov gets Spirit Guardians added to the spell list.

[Petrocorus]

Exclusivity on some spells is one of the main mean to balance classes.
WotC should really be careful with this and not expand spell access mindlessly.

[Drascin]

Unsure if its been mentioned but if your table allows the Ravnica backgrounds, Orzhov gets Spirit Guardians added to the spell list.

Being an Orzhov Paladin does kind of lock you out of a few Oaths, admittedly. Because you ain't excusing an Ancients Paladin in the Orzhov guild, mate.

[KorvinStarmast]

Unsure if its been mentioned but if your table allows the Ravnica backgrounds, Orzhov gets Spirit Guardians added to the spell list.

Thank you kind sir, though our tables do not use it.

Exclusivity on some spells is one of the main mean to balance classes. WotC should really be careful with this and not expand spell access mindlessly.

And to differentiate them. I agree on the "WoTC, please don't screw this up" feeling.
But I think they will if past history is any indicator.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Of course, a Paladin 7 Lore Bard 6 could get spirit guardians via magical secrets, but at that point, CR 13-15 opponents, that might be an underwhelming choice.

Hmm: Can a Paladin 5 / Lore Bard 6 cast magical secrets Spirit Guardians? Yeah, I think so. Hmmm. If a BBEG is running a lot of minions, I can see this being quite useful.

The few times I've used it so far it did fantastic work. Our party's AoE clear is pretty weak so it really stood out. I'm going to miss it a bit, but I'm definitely not defending it as a good idea, it's where it belongs with a meaningful opportunity cost for any Paladin who wants it.

On that same note, another reason I'm glad it was nixed other than being a noticeable buff to Paladin is that it would have also taken away from what I consider the biggest and possibly only decent reason to use Crown over Redemption for a supporting Paladin. Crown's spell list is pretty good but the UA list stole everything it had over Redemption.

[MaxWilson]

Of course, a Paladin 7 Lore Bard 6 could get spirit guardians via magical secrets, but at that point, CR 13-15 opponents, that might be an underwhelming choice.

Hmm: Can a Paladin 5 / Lore Bard 6 cast magical secrets Spirit Guardians? Yeah, I think so. Hmmm. If a BBEG is running a lot of minions, I can see this being quite useful.

Seems like a lot of investment compared to Paladin 6/Sorcerer 1, which you want anyway for Shield/etc. Sorcerer can get Sword Burst (SCAG) or Thunderclap (XGtE or EE), both of which are d6 cantrips with a 5' "radius" (which in 5E apparently means a 15' diameter? or not). Spirit Guardians does 3d8/save for half instead of 3d6/save for none, in a bigger area (15' radius = 35' diameter? or 30'?), but... it also comes online 6 levels later for the non-crown Paladin. That's a lot of time to spend dealing with mobs one Star Spawn Grue/Goblin/Wolf at a time.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, obviously the easiest way to get it as a Pally is to just go 5 levels into Divine Soul. Paladin 2/Divine Soul 5 can cast it a bunch of times as early as level 7. Of course, now without SCAGtrips working with Twin Spell you'll be more inclined to get Extra Attack so Pally 5 increases in value comparatively, but you can afford to take those 3 levels later as the stuff granted by Divine Soul 5 includes Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians to effectively get bonus attack and AOE killing covered (of course, Sorcerer list has some good options to that end too).

[Petrocorus]

And to differentiate them. I agree on the "WoTC, please don't screw this up" feeling.
But I think they will if past history is any indicator.

Indeed.
I can go along the Dragonmarked spell list, because they have a crunch and (supposedly) a fluff cost, but the Ravnica background seemed really cheap, like a free upgrade on your spell list for whatever is your class.

The UA with expanded spell list was also unreasonable, except maybe for Sorcerer (who do need some help, they don't even have Flaming Sphere despite being the go-to elementalist in the PHB).

[KorvinStarmast]

Sorcerer (who do need some help, they don't even have Flaming Sphere despite being the go-to elementalist in the PHB).

Yeah, that seems kind of odd to me, as a choice. My celestial Warlock got it if she wanted it. (Lasted IIRC two levels before I got something else)

[Corran]

Spirit Guardians was cut from the expanded spell list, or at least it appeared to be for the list featured in the last fantasy grounds preview.

Rightfully so, dealing with groups is one of the Paladin's recognizable weaknesses. Felt kind of dirty using it on my Paladin.

I didn't know. I am very glad to hear that.

[Petrocorus]

Yeah, that seems kind of odd to me, as a choice. My celestial Warlock got it if she wanted it. (Lasted IIRC two levels before I got something else)

I don't really know what was the design intent behind limiting the Sorcerer spell list (and spell known) that much.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't really know what was the design intent behind limiting the Sorcerer spell list (and spell known) that much.

Indeed. The limitation by restricting the number know ought to have been sufficient. And as you say, they seemed to be the "elemental magic 'R us" class.

[Petrocorus]

Indeed. The limitation by restricting the number know ought to have been sufficient. And as you say, they seemed to be the "elemental magic 'R us" class.

Yep.
If you want to specialised in one element, Draconic Sorcerer is probably the best way to do it.
At least until Tasha, i haven't read it yet.

And not all element are equals.
Some are obviously more resisted, but some other suffer of an utter lack of spell.
I noticed when a player wanted to do a blue dragon sorcerer than the only lightning cantrips were short or melee range, for instance.
It's the only element available to draconic sorcerer that has this problem, even poison get a spell with a 30 ft range.

[TheUser]

Paladins feel overpowered by in large because DM's feel obligated to prop up melee-obligate monsters against them. Once a paladin is forced to fight against, flyers, climbers, teleporters or other ranged combatants abusing some other form of (re-)positioning the class flounders.

That having been said the class has tools which can help (my tabaxi Vengeance paladin with haste could climb and run down most enemies) but when being strafed by dragons and the like they can feel helpless.

In this regard I look at them as a binary class; extremely high performing when allowed to perform but can be almost switched off entirely against their weak matchups.

Luckily multi-classing hexblade exists ;)

[CMCC]

Of course, a Paladin 7 Lore Bard 6 could get spirit guardians via magical secrets, but at that point, CR 13-15 opponents, that might be an underwhelming choice.

Hmm: Can a Paladin 5 / Lore Bard 6 cast magical secrets Spirit Guardians? Yeah, I think so. Hmmm. If a BBEG is running a lot of minions, I can see this being quite useful.

Pal2/ divine sorc 5 gets that and spiritual weapon.

[KorvinStarmast]

Pal2/ divine sorc 5 gets that and spiritual weapon.

Ooh, yeah, Divine Sorcerer, cleric spell list.