Engender(queer)ing my Vaarsuvian Visions.

[Luna_Mayflower]

After consulting an Haruspex, I have a new theory!

Vaarsuvius is on the autisitc spectrum.

I think this is a brilliant addition to Rick Burlew's respectful and representative cast of characters!

Of course, we could all tell from early on that Elan is represents those who are low-functioning autistic, but I do believe V is instead a high-functioning autistic character.

My niece has Aspergers and she absolutely loves V. We often talk about the newest comics when I see her and she tells me about a cool moment she liked. She said that it makes her really happy that someone like her is able to have such good friends and be really useful and powerful.

What do you people think?

[Keltest]

Does it count as an addition to the cast when they were in page 1, panel 1? Heck, if you read left to right, theyre also the very first character in panel 1.

[KorvinStarmast]

Does it count as an addition to the cast when they were in page 1, panel 1? Heck, if you read left to right, theyre also the very first character in panel 1.

While I chuckled at your reply, if we go back to the prequels and specifically On The Origin of the PCs, the first two members of the Order were Roy and Durkon. Roy then recruited the others (with Belkar beating out the Monk as the last member) so you could stretch that into "V being an addition to the Order" but my point may fall down on this little detail:

It wasn't until all six of them were doing things together that the (retcon) moment arrived wherein we learn how the name of the Order came about. If the Order wasn't the Order until after that moment, then V can't have been "an addition" but was rather "core" to the Order.

OK, that's enough hair splitting for a while.

As to Rich having explicitly chosen to include V to offer representation to those on the spectrum Luna refers to, I don't think I've seen him comment on that, but the banana may have.

[Luna_Mayflower]

Does it count as an addition to the cast when they were in page 1, panel 1? Heck, if you read left to right, theyre also the very first character in panel 1.

Oh perhaps my golden words weren't written correctly. I meant that the revelation to V's high functioning autism was an addition, not the character.

[Dion]

After consulting an Haruspex...

You’re not allowed to say auspicious. That’s a bird word.

[Fyraltari]

After consulting an Haruspex

Even seers are subcontracting these days...

[Chronos]

Vaarsuvius may well be on the autistic spectrum (to the extent that the term "on the autistic spectrum" is even meaningful). But Elan? Whatever Elan is, it definitely, absolutely, is not autism. Elan is "on the autistic spectrum" in the same sense that gamma rays are "on the radio spectrum".

[Luna_Mayflower]

You’re not allowed to say auspicious. That’s a bird word.

Go away, please.

Even seers are subcontracting these days...

Not so much. There is a subtle difference between a Prophet and an Haruspex.

Vaarsuvius may well be on the autistic spectrum (to the extent that the term "on the autistic spectrum" is even meaningful). But Elan? Whatever Elan is, it definitely, absolutely, is not autism. Elan is "on the autistic spectrum" in the same sense that gamma rays are "on the radio spectrum".

What are you even going on about?

[Fyraltari]

Not so much. There is a subtle difference between a Prophet and an Haruspex.

Methodology, as I understand it. But you're still having somebody else do your work for you.

[Emanick]

This is a very interesting topic to me, since not only do I have Asperger's, but I work as a comedian in a group called Asperger's Are Us, so I inevitably get involved in countless discussions with members of the autistic community about autism and representation.

It has never occurred to me to consider V autistic. S/he has some of the stereotypical traits associated with high-functioning autism, such as hyperfocusing on a single task, relatively poor theory of mind, high intelligence, a tendency to lose track of time when wrapped up in an engrossing project (although V attributes this to hir "elven insensitivity to the flow of time," so perhaps that's a red herring), and unusual speech patterns and mannerisms. I can definitely see why somebody might ping V as autistic. That said, s/he somehow still doesn't really come off as autistic character to me, for reasons I'm having a hard time putting into words. Maybe it's hir lack of sensory issues, or maybe it's just the fact that I hadn't really considered the matter before. I dunno, I'll have to give it some thought.

It does seem clear that V is not deliberately written as autistic. Rich has said that he would not consider portraying a character with "a mental handicap that does not affect their intelligence," with high-functioning autism given as an example (by the question-asker, not Rich himself). Personally, I don't consider high-functioning autism a mental handicap; autism is simply a neurodivergent state, and one that has enough advantages that I don't consider it to be categorically a disability - although it obviously comes with disadvantages as well as advantages, particularly since society is (quite understandably) set up in such a way that it caters to the type of brain that the overwhelming majority of people have. Still, that doesn't really affect Rich's reasoning for his decision not to portray such a character; he claims to have next to no experience with "such issues" and has next to nothing to say about them.

I have no problem with an author choosing not to represent a given community* out of a lack of familiarity with the relevant issues; I certainly don't believe that anyone has an obligation to tell a specific kind of story that s/he doesn't feel compelled to tell. It does strike me as a little weird that he feels a moral obligation to depict diverse sexualities and not neurodivergence, but hey, I'm certainly not going to complain about the diversity he has chosen to depict.

Still, autistic people, like LGBTQ+ people, are used to finding representation in characters that are not canonically considered to be part of their "group." More power to anyone who chooses to see V as a high-functioning autistic elf, I say.

* It feels weird to characterize autistic people as a whole as a "community," since we're far, far too individualistic to accurately be described as such. Still, that's the kind of terminology we're using these days, I guess.

[Psyren]

It's certainly possible. Even after years of seeing their actions and reactions, I'm not certain we have enough information about V for a definitive diagnosis one way or the other, but I don't think it would hurt anything if they were either.

[Luna_Mayflower]

This is a very interesting topic to me, since not only do I have Asperger's, but I work as a comedian in a group called Asperger's Are Us, so I inevitably get involved in countless discussions with members of the autistic community about autism and representation.

It has never occurred to me to consider V autistic. S/he has some of the stereotypical traits associated with high-functioning autism, such as hyperfocusing on a single task, relatively poor theory of mind, high intelligence, a tendency to lose track of time when wrapped up in an engrossing project (although V attributes this to hir "elven insensitivity to the flow of time," so perhaps that's a red herring), and unusual speech patterns and mannerisms. I can definitely see why somebody might ping V as autistic. That said, s/he somehow still doesn't really come off as autistic character to me, for reasons I'm having a hard time putting into words. Maybe it's hir lack of sensory issues, or maybe it's just the fact that I hadn't really considered the matter before. I dunno, I'll have to give it some thought.

It does seem clear that V is not deliberately written as autistic. Rich has said that he would not consider portraying a character with "a mental handicap that does not affect their intelligence," with high-functioning autism given as an example (by the question-asker, not Rich himself). Personally, I don't consider high-functioning autism a mental handicap; autism is simply a neurodivergent state, and one that has enough advantages that I don't consider it to be categorically a disability - although it obviously comes with disadvantages as well as advantages, particularly since society is (quite understandably) set up in such a way that it caters to the type of brain that the overwhelming majority of people have. Still, that doesn't really affect Rich's reasoning for his decision not to portray such a character; he claims to have next to no experience with "such issues" and has next to nothing to say about them.

I have no problem with an author choosing not to represent a given community* out of a lack of familiarity with the relevant issues; I certainly don't believe that anyone has an obligation to tell a specific kind of story that s/he doesn't feel compelled to tell. It does strike me as a little weird that he feels a moral obligation to depict diverse sexualities and not neurodivergence, but hey, I'm certainly not going to complain about the diversity he has chosen to depict.

Still, autistic people, like LGBTQ+ people, are used to finding representation in characters that are not canonically considered to be part of their "group." More power to anyone who chooses to see V as a high-functioning autistic elf, I say.

* It feels weird to characterize autistic people as a whole as a "community," since we're far, far too individualistic to accurately be described as such. Still, that's the kind of terminology we're using these days, I guess.

Hmm, but that was seven years ago. Perhaps Rick's thoughts have shifted somewhat?

[tawnyterror]

As an autistic person I have always very much related to aspects of Vaarsuvius- which is one of the main reasons why I've been following this comic as long as I have! I don't believe this portrayal is international, though I do believe V is a character with mannerisms inspired by that of characters in other media who are more intentionally coded.

On the topic of Elan, I don't think he's autistic (nor low-functioning)- if anything he seems more like he would have ADHD. (supported partially by the gag about his medication in On The Origin- though that may just be Roy's opinion)

[navpirx]

Only Vaarsuvius? Isn't the entire Order conceived as a representation of the spectrum? Especially Dorukan appears to be fixated on certain thoughts and ideas, going out of his way to find very painful ways to further commute with his god for example.

[Fyraltari]

I have no problem with an author choosing not to represent a given community out of a lack of familiarity with the relevant issues; I certainly don't believe that anyone has an obligation to tell a specific kind of story that s/he doesn't feel compelled to tell. It does strike me as a little weird that he feels a moral obligation to depict diverse sexualities and not neurodivergence, but hey, I'm certainly not going to complain about the diversity he has chosen to depict.

Disclaimer: I am heterosexual and neurotypical and you could fit all I know about the autism spectrum inside a miniature shoe box for diminutive mice, so if anything I wrote below is stupid or wrong, or if I unknowingly used offensive terms, I apologize in advance.

I think the thing is that, once an author uses "fantasy world" magic wand to woosh away all the prejudice, non-heterosexual people aren't different from heterosexual people except with regards to whom they'd enjoy banging or not. On the other hand, people on the spectrum don't do social interactions in the same way that neurotypical people do. And, unlike sex, it's damn near impossible to have characters in your story who don't interact with other characters. So if you are a neurotypical author who doesn't know any neurodivergent person there's a huge risk that you'll end up making your character a stereotype or just portray what their life is like wrong.

Given The Giant's self professed bad track records when it comes to trans issues, it's understandable why he wouldn't risk it.

[nespunkt]

You’re not allowed to say auspicious. That’s a bird word.

Just want to say that I understood and appreciated this reference.

~

On the topic of whether V is autistic or not: I think if you want to read them that way, it works quite well. Personally, I am a little bit wary of applying real-world mappings onto fictional characters if they're not explicitly meant to adhere to such mappings. For example, I try not to call a character "straight" if they're written in a medieval setting before heterosexuality was a category people placed themselves in.

Does that make sense? Maybe not. Maybe like this: I find it more helpful to talk about the characters as though they might help exemplify certain traits or behaviours because they're simply part of the more or less universal human(oid) condition.

[Luna_Mayflower]

Methodology, as I understand it. But you're still having somebody else do your work for you.

Regardless, we both agree that the OOTS representation of psychics is absolutely appalling. Who'd want to be Laurin!

Given The Giant's self professed bad track records when it comes to trans issues, it's understandable why he wouldn't risk it.

The belt? Pfft, that's not even the worst of it. Just you wait until strip number 1298.

[Metastachydium]

Regardless, we both agree that the OOTS representation of psychics is absolutely appalling. Who'd want to be Laurin!

What about the blue on Redcloak's payroll and the Little Psion that Could?

[tawnyterror]

The belt? Pfft, that's not even the worst of it. Just you wait until strip number 1298.

I feel like there's a joke or reference within this strip number that I don't get and it has been bothering me all morning!

[Luna_Mayflower]

What about the blue on Redcloak's payroll and the Little Psion that Could?

The Blue was a token appearance and that Psion is utterly unacceptable!

I feel like there's a joke or reference within this strip number that I don't get and it has been bothering me all morning!

I am a psychic prophet. It's kind of a big deal.

[Malloon]

While I think that it's of course perfectly possible that the Giant either intended to write Vaarsuvius as a character on the autism spectrum, or alternatively decided later to write them that way, it has happened fairly often that a character or plot point in the story of Order of the Stick was taken as an allusion to or commentary on some real-world event, concept or issue, while in fact only seeming so and not being intended by the Giant at all. As such we should remember the very real possibility during our discussion and diagnosis that however well it seems to fit, it could very easily be unintentional.

Adding to that, the question is raised of how well we can apply our concepts of mental illness and diversity, gleamed as they are from the real world, and apply them to a story where neither the origin of the people in it nor their physiology seems to be completely comparable to people from the real world, the former obviously more so than the latter, given that they do at least seem to have the same body plan as we do. Most people are patently unaware of the inner workings of our bodies, both mentally and physically, so writers generally have no issue inserting new diseases, poisons, drugs, mental illnesses and neurodivergence into a story without breaking our sense of disbelief, no matter how impossible it would be for those afflictions, traits and mixtures to exist in the real world.

And not to overlook the one last but possibly most important issue, Vaarsuvius is an elf, not a human, and has already been featured with many different physiological traits that even humans in the story have. Who's to say what merciless medical maladies the Giant has invented for this human-esque but clearly non-human race? At least we know Sphinx pox seems to affect humans, elves and halflings equally, but they in turn caught it from the cat. That is not a good basis for comparing how similar physiologies are.

At the very least we have indications that Vaarsuvius's predilections are not shared between all elves. We cannot fairly judge how much elves are prone to becoming or being like Vaarsuvius, but at the very least none of the not inconsiderable number of other elf and half-elf characters in the story share Vaarsuvius's character, especially not their verbosity. This shows their traits, while not necessarily unique, are in fact character traits and not species' traits. (Setting aside for a moment the consideration how useful the description of "species" is here.) This could indicate that Vaarsuvius is on the autism spectrum, but it could also just mean that this is how an elf can be, without a label.

If your niece strongly identifies with Vaarsuvius and is encouraged by Vaarsuvius's successes, that is a positive thing all by itself. I personally don't see the need for labelling them on top of that. If your niece identifies that Vaarsuvius is like she is, and she finds comfort, joy or motivation in that, what is there to add? The only thing I can think of is that other people on the autism spectrum might identify with Vaarsuvius as well and labelling Vaarsuvius as such might help them find the Order of the Stick when they set out to find fiction with such characters, but I don't think I would generally hold up Vaarsuvius as a character to be inspired by, given their other traits and failings. They are a great character, but not in general inspiration fodder. I say this as someone who has found inspiration in and underwent personal character development because of a speech by Xykon, of all people.

[Fyraltari]

Regardless, we both agree that the OOTS representation of psychics is absolutely appalling. Who'd want to be Laurin!

What about the Oracle and Sangwaan?

[Luna_Mayflower]

What about the Oracle and Sangwaan?

Oh Oracle yes! Yes like Oracle! Desire Oracle!

Sangwaan dead.

[Psyren]

By "psychic" do you mean a psionic class, or do you mean a character capable of telling the future? Because those aren't the same thing in D&D at all. Sangwaan and the Oracle are not psionic.

[Luna_Mayflower]

By "psychic" do you mean a psionic class, or do you mean a character capable of telling the future? Because those aren't the same thing in D&D at all. Sangwaan and the Oracle are not psionic.

The latter.

[137beth]

I was diagnosed with Asperger's' Syndrome back before it was reclassified as ASD. Personally, while I think V has some characteristics commonly associated with high-functioning autism, I never read them as actually having AS/ASD. I think Emanick expressed my thoughts on the matter more clearly than I can, so I'll just refer you to his post.

[CriticalFailure]

I can definitely see why they don't want to take that risk. I still don't get how the fantasy land swapping bodies magic overlaps with the experiences or lives of real life trans people. I understand even less how making fun of the nonsensical drawing of anthropomorphic creatures with breasts that is endemic to fantasy is related to it.

[Dion]

Just want to say that I understood and appreciated this reference.

On a related note, it turns out that augury and autism are not etymologically related. I secretly hoped there was some crazy 19th century theory that autism was somehow related to birds (but it turns out one is Latin and the other is Greek).

On an unrelated note, IÂ’ve always personally identified with the coldly logical folks who are disconnected from the emotions of others; the Spock archetype probably connects with a lot of us.

And, V probably pulls a lot of characterization through Spock.

[Mightymosy]

I can definitely see why they don't want to take that risk. I still don't get how the fantasy land swapping bodies magic overlaps with the experiences or lives of real life trans people. I understand even less how making fun of the nonsensical drawing of anthropomorphic creatures with breasts that is endemic to fantasy is related to it.

If you are expecting to be offended you will always find something would be my guess.

Look at Elan: Rich is making fun of people with low IQ everytime he makes an Elan joke, but since no one with low IQ reads OotS* **, THAT is minority that can safely made fun of.


No, it really doesn't make sense.


* Alternatively, people with low IQ don't realize they are the butt of jokes, and thus don't care
** Most people may be convinced they have higher than average IQ, anyway

[Psyren]

The latter.

In which case we can probably exclude Laurin; her ease of moving entire armies around suggests she's a Nomad rather than a Seer.