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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    zinycor's Avatar

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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Yes, you claiming that people subconsciously improve their dice rolls because you and your friend rolled some dice a couple dozen times is indeed pretty hilarious.

    I'm sorry but I can only repeat myself (in more than one way, because I think this is not the first time talking about your use of "experiments" like this to prove your point), all you are showing is a severe, textbook case of observation bias, nothing else. Also, desiring a specific outcome, and then collecting data until it fits your expectation to then conclude you are correct is not an "experiment" in any scientific or casual use of the word, it's just showing off.
    Well said. I completely agree.
    Last son of the Lu-Ching dynasty

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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    RifleAvenger's Avatar

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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    I cannot believe there is someone on this forum seriously arguing that they have evidence of psychic dice powers, let alone using it to provide some bizarre explanation for how the player talked about in the OP might not be cheating. Because they might be psychic or supernaturally lucky instead.

    As others have pointed out, any valid experiment for this sort of thing would require multiple individuals tested, in blind environments, with controls, and thousands of dice rolls apiece. It would rock the world if true.

    Also, similar studies into proposed psychic powers have already been conducted and turned out: nothing. It was confirmation bias or raw bluster. The few studies that purport to show the existence of these things invariably turns out to have been undermined by some aspect of the experiment design (e.g. leading questions from experimenters when testing for ESP).

    Dice-blessed and dice-cursed are confirmation bias, nothing more.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Dice control is a real, if highly disputed, theory that does not involve psychic powers, supernatural luck, or any other form of magic, merely a very high defree of fine motor control.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Delta's Avatar

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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Dice control is a real, if highly disputed, theory that does not involve psychic powers, supernatural luck, or any other form of magic, merely a very high defree of fine motor control.
    That's not what we're arguing about. I know you can cheat at dice (as in, rolling in a very specific way to improve the chances of getting the result you want), but this is explicitly NOT what Quertus is arguing. Nothing that requires that high a degree of fine motor control, sleight of hand and so on will ever happen subconsciously.
    Last edited by Delta; 2020-10-14 at 05:44 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Dice control is a real, if highly disputed, theory that does not involve psychic powers, supernatural luck, or any other form of magic, merely a very high defree of fine motor control.
    Thank you for having the reading comprehension skill to understand the nature of my contention, and for expressing said contention so concisely.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2020-10-14 at 06:20 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Thank you for having the reading comprehension skill to understand the nature of my contention, and for expressing said contention so concisely.
    So.... you cheat
    Last son of the Lu-Ching dynasty

    thog is the champion, thog's friends! and thog keeps on fighting to the end!

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Delta's Avatar

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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Thank you for having the reading comprehension skill to understand the nature of my contention, and for expressing said contention so concisely.
    Well in that case, since you're willing to admit being totally and utterly wrong, then there's nothing more to discuss here.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Controlling the outcome of a dice roll is possible under specific conditions, I myself do it with a certain degree of success. But it doesn't work on every type of dice, require not only dexterity but also setup (you usually need certains numbers to face up to obtain specific results) and no way can you do it by reflex, the proceess being too complex. Also no one in my group can do it with normal d20, while our success rate is high with normal d6. Actually outside of d6, the only type of dice we are having success in influencing the outcome are the d4 and the d12 (with fairly poor results for this one). Just to be clear we are only capable to do so on specific surface that we know well (dice trays usually work best).

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Just because the player says they want something doesn't mean they correctly identified what they want...

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    By cheating your player is missing out on some, potentially, legendary roleplaying opportunities. Check this for an example. Share it with your players, but don't roll-shame your housemate. Ease him into the idea that you don't always need to succeed to have fun.

    In a recent game, our mage fumbled a spell attack and accidentally granted the huge enemy monster DR 5, our ranger took 10 rounds to restring his bow after a fumble snapped its string, our sorceror slammed his javelin into his own foot, my fighter dropped his longhammer in the opening round of combat against a giantkin that actually turned out to be friendly, and our goblin rogue fell asleep while we were trying to save an innocent maiden from a band of hellknights, allowing her to fall into their hands. In the past 15 years of playing Necromunda, my gang has never succeeded on an ammo roll, and rarely made a successful shot without provoking an ammo roll.

    But everyone involved had fun.

    Somehow, I think your housemate missed this lesson...besides, it's been months, and we still joke about not letting the sorceror near anything pointy, and we're looking into getting him some proper dwarven steelcapped boots (he's an elf)...
    Last edited by aglondier; 2020-10-16 at 05:38 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    I'd stick with the Roll20 rolling because it's fair on everyone else, rather than have McCheaty miraculously roll 16->20 every time he throws the physical d20. I would not entertain lengthy discussions on this, just tell him everyone else is doing it and he doesn't have to join in if he doesn't want to.

    Something to maybe try in game is have him rushed by cannon-fodder grade enemies, so he can heroically butcher them? Maybe he just wants to feel awesome at slaughtering foes, in which case let him have his moment, Conan-ing his way through lesser opponents. Have mid-tier enemies commanding these plebs directly taunt the player pre-combat and then flee in abject terror when he destroys their minions. Obviously don't make every encounter his spotlight, but give him his time in the sun.
    Last edited by Mr Beer; 2020-10-16 at 06:59 PM.
    Re: 100 Things to Beware of that Every DM Should Know

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    93. No matter what the character sheet say, there are only 3 PC alignments: Lawful Snotty, Neutral Greedy, and Chaotic Backstabbing.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by WeissAllein View Post
    The other players agreed that he was rolling well for most of the game and he continued to complain about rolling low because he missed twice during the fight.
    I'mma just gonna ignore the whole conversation about sleight of hand and psychic powers, and focus on the statements from the player.

    How much do you have invested in the out-of-game relationship with this player? It's okay to say, "Not a whole lot." You aren't obligated to be someone else's psychologist unless that's your profession. And even then, you're allowed to refuse clients.

    I ask this because there's something hinky going on here. You ran your own quick and dirty statistical analysis and found (unsurprisingly) that a computer's random number generator does in fact generate numbers at random. Your player disagrees. Now's a great time to decide whether you care why he's saying this, or if you don't really care. It's okay to not care, and just say, "Hey, I realize you've got your experience of this, but I'm sticking with science and science says the RNG is operating normally and I can't make exceptions for one player because it's not fair to anyone else." You could do that and be done with it. Personally, that's what I'd do, as long as he wasn't a super close friend or family member.

    If you do care about why he's doing this, then let's go over the possibilities:
    1. He's a cheating cheater who likes cheating for the sake of it.
    2. He enjoys manipulating other people to get what he wants/feel superior.
    3. He's a cheating cheater who is using cheating to try and make himself feel better about something unrelated to the game.
    4. He has a desperate need to prevail decisively in these battles that are a proxy for something else entirely in his head.
    5. He is experiencing paranoid thinking.
    6. He is experiencing some other form of irrational thinking.


    That list covers all sorts of ground. Some of it is unlikely. Some of it is really unpleasant territory. Some of it is really relatable. Some of it really flags that maybe he's not getting the support he needs elsewhere in his life and that some pretty important mental health needs aren't being met. None of it is on you, and nor is it what you signed up for when you said you'd DM, and the same goes for the other participants in the game.

    You can either live with it, set boundaries and let the chips fall where they may, or help him get help, depending on what the reasons are and how much you want to be involved.


  13. - Top - End - #43
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    How much do you have invested in the out-of-game relationship with this player?

    If you do care about why he's doing this, then let's go over the possibilities:
    1. He's a cheating cheater who likes cheating for the sake of it.
    2. He enjoys manipulating other people to get what he wants/feel superior.
    3. He's a cheating cheater who is using cheating to try and make himself feel better about something unrelated to the game.
    4. He has a desperate need to prevail decisively in these battles that are a proxy for something else entirely in his head.
    5. He is experiencing paranoid thinking.
    6. He is experiencing some other form of irrational thinking.
    That was a great post, but you seem to have left out a few things.

    IIRC (darn senility), this is the GM's roommate that we're talking about. So, while not "family", still some "difficult and painful to sever" ties.

    Next, your list misses a few possibilities, like, "Given that he is a demonstrably terrible communicator, maybe he just really enjoys rolling dice (see Angry's article on the 8 kinds of fun)", and "Unbeknownst to him, his dice are somewhat weighted, and this has skewed his perception of a 'normal' distribution of success". OK, that last is possibly covered under "some other form of irrational thinking", but I would contend that the thought process is rational, simply the conditioning has produced irrational results.

    And it might be more productive to separate the notion of "cheater" from things like wanting to "make himself feel better about something unrelated to the game", like you did with "desperate need to prevail decisively in these battles". Actually, separating that from "that are a proxy for something else entirely in his head" would probably be a good idea, too.

    Guessing at the underlying causes can be good or bad, but being able to communicate at only a single level, and separating your guesses from observable behavior can be very important for having a productive conversation. And, you know, for not offending people, or sounding stupid ("Yes, this escapism intended to make me feel better about the heat death of the universe, but no, I'm not cheating - why in the world would you ever conflate those two unrelated concepts?").

    This is why I encouraged and continue to encourage the OP to start with the "safer" conversation regarding the seeming inconsistency between the player's desire for a challenge, and their response to being given one.

    My guess is, that they want to tell stories / boast / inwardly feel the gratification of having accomplished bigger/grander deeds, and that the only way that they could think to communicate this was by requesting "more challenge". My guess is, not getting the balance of challenge/success that he desired, he has the need to control some aspect of the game to make it more to his liking (be that "rolling dice" or "cheating to control the outcome"). But it's just a guess. The OP should not get caught up mistaking guesses for reality, and should approach the conversation as a fact-finding mission. Learn what type of communicator (other than "terrible") and what type of person this player is, and use that information to decide what their next course of action should be.

    EDIT: But, lest this tree get lost in the forest, it is important to have the "what do you want?" conversation one way or the other; that is, it is an end unto itself, not just a means to learn about the player. It is important to dig to find out just what kind of game they wanted, given that it clearly wasn't the kind that they said that they wanted.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2020-10-17 at 07:48 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    How much do you have invested in the out-of-game relationship with this player? It's okay to say, "Not a whole lot." You aren't obligated to be someone else's psychologist unless that's your profession. And even then, you're allowed to refuse clients.
    I will be honest he is also my fiance currently and he is going through a tough time of his life, mentally. I have supported him as much as I can and just try to make him smile or laugh each day. He was seeing a mental health professional but he recently lost his health insurance and so he can't afford to go anymore. We are working on that as well but it has been more difficult then it should be in my opinion.

    During our last session he pulled me aside and told me he wanted to secretly attune to the artifact they had recovered. It was a homebrew item that made the wielder extremely powerful, so much so it takes all their attunement slots. I let him and the other players had no problem with it. He got to play a session with the power of what is essentially a god in my setting and at the end of the day I think he finally realized that it wasn't making him feel better.

    He talked to me after the session and he has decided to unattune to the item because it just doesn't feel right to him. Everything was trying to kill him because he had the artifact and I thought that had upset him but he explained that everything felt hollow using the artifact and he thinks his character would actually be very upset with him because the character believes that people don't need gods in order to win the war that currently plagues their home.

    He also stopped complaining about the online roller after a few combats using said artifact so I hope whatever dawned on him also helped him realize that he was being a bit silly about this whole thing.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by WeissAllein View Post
    I will be honest he is also my fiance currently and he is going through a tough time of his life, mentally. I have supported him as much as I can and just try to make him smile or laugh each day. He was seeing a mental health professional but he recently lost his health insurance and so he can't afford to go anymore. We are working on that as well but it has been more difficult then it should be in my opinion.

    During our last session he pulled me aside and told me he wanted to secretly attune to the artifact they had recovered. It was a homebrew item that made the wielder extremely powerful, so much so it takes all their attunement slots. I let him and the other players had no problem with it. He got to play a session with the power of what is essentially a god in my setting and at the end of the day I think he finally realized that it wasn't making him feel better.

    He talked to me after the session and he has decided to unattune to the item because it just doesn't feel right to him. Everything was trying to kill him because he had the artifact and I thought that had upset him but he explained that everything felt hollow using the artifact and he thinks his character would actually be very upset with him because the character believes that people don't need gods in order to win the war that currently plagues their home.

    He also stopped complaining about the online roller after a few combats using said artifact so I hope whatever dawned on him also helped him realize that he was being a bit silly about this whole thing.
    I think it may have been related to what you mentioned here.
    Going through a difficult time, losing health insurance, enduring mental health issues - it's easy to feel like you're losing control of everything.
    So when you escape into a fantasy game, like D&D - it's the one place where you want to feel good and in control of things.
    I think he realized, once you gave him all this power in D&D - he realized, that in the end, that's not what's going to make him feel better.

    I am hoping you guys pull through this and he can somehow continue to get the help he needs. <3
    Last edited by Tawmis; 2020-10-19 at 12:19 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by WeissAllein View Post
    I will be honest he is also my fiance currently and he is going through a tough time of his life, mentally. I have supported him as much as I can and just try to make him smile or laugh each day. He was seeing a mental health professional but he recently lost his health insurance and so he can't afford to go anymore. We are working on that as well but it has been more difficult then it should be in my opinion.

    During our last session he pulled me aside and told me he wanted to secretly attune to the artifact they had recovered. It was a homebrew item that made the wielder extremely powerful, so much so it takes all their attunement slots. I let him and the other players had no problem with it. He got to play a session with the power of what is essentially a god in my setting and at the end of the day I think he finally realized that it wasn't making him feel better.

    He talked to me after the session and he has decided to unattune to the item because it just doesn't feel right to him. Everything was trying to kill him because he had the artifact and I thought that had upset him but he explained that everything felt hollow using the artifact and he thinks his character would actually be very upset with him because the character believes that people don't need gods in order to win the war that currently plagues their home.

    He also stopped complaining about the online roller after a few combats using said artifact so I hope whatever dawned on him also helped him realize that he was being a bit silly about this whole thing.
    Hopefully everything will go right now. One thing I try to keep in mind is that the gaming table is not a therapy session, the GM and the other players aren't there to help on personal problems but to have fun telling a story.

    Ofc, your personal relationship with this person is more important so take care of that as a priority.

    Im the end, is good that he is starting to realize that power isn't what he is looking for.
    Last son of the Lu-Ching dynasty

    thog is the champion, thog's friends! and thog keeps on fighting to the end!

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by WeissAllein View Post
    He was seeing a mental health professional but he recently lost his health insurance and so he can't afford to go anymore. We are working on that as well but it has been more difficult then it should be in my opinion.
    This is a really tough thing, and I think it's one of the world's great injustices when someone cannot have access to the health resources that they need. It means one of the most essential support structures he had is not available to him, and it is not surprising to stumble under those circumstances.

    For what it's worth, D&D and other role playing games are being used with increasing frequency in residential treatment centers for kids dealing with mental health issues because while it is no substitute for cognitive behavioral therapy or dialectical behavioral therapy, it can be a very instructive adjunct. As you just described, people can play out "what if" scenarios and as long as everyone else at the table can keep an even keel, a lot can be learned in a short time without major real world consequences. I just mention this as a tangentially related aside.

    Anyway, good on you for arriving at a scenario where he was able to gain some insight without conflict or loss of dignity, and also without you having to morph into being his absent mental health professional. I hope he's able to get health insurance again, soon. It sounds like he is in a place where he's open to learning and changing direction, which is a good thing. Sending you both "hang in there!" vibes.


  18. - Top - End - #48
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: A Player is Being difficult

    Well that certainly complicates things.

    I understand all too well how real life issues can have an adverse effect on leisure activities, especially socially complex ones like rpgs. Sounds like he may have reached an epiphany, though, so maybe things will improve.

    I would definitely suggest you approach him primarily via your IRL relationship first rather than as his DM, because helping his out-of-game situation is probably the best way to help his in-game problems. This year is wild and stressful for all of us, so take care of yourselves.
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