Rater's Ridiculously Rambunctious Random Ranter #229

[Peelee]

That was where my mind went. More a matter of "these are both very common" than "these things are connected in some way".

Slightly related anecdote: as a child, I was once forbidden from eating any carrot sticks until I finished my bowl of ice cream.

My toddler eats cucumbers like bananas. Hand him one it'll be gone in twenty minutes. Little dude can't get enough of those! He likes strawberries and raspberries more, but dang does he love eating a nice cucumber.

It's a four-day weekend for a significant majority of people in the US. So I'm not sure what you mean.

"Business and government workers" do not comprise the majority of people in the US (especially as "business" is intentionally vague there). For an enormous amount of Americans (I would be shocked it it was not the majority), Thanksgiving is a Thursday off before a 2-day weekend. And, for a huge number of people (but not a majority, and especially not this yeah, thankfully), it's not even a Thursday off.

If you're one of the ones that gets a four-day weekend, more power to ya! That's the dream. But that is not the case for a remarkably significant percent of the population.

Now,if you think it should be, I'm 100% with you there.

[Qwertystop]

When I was little I remember having some neighbors over for dinner once and one of the kids asked if the broccoli was raw, because it was still green.

Can confirm, some people just don't know how to cook veg. I mean, this wasn't even anything high-effort – just steamed instead of boiled.

[Rater202]

I've actually read recently that the Brussel Sprouts you remember being bad are because all of the sprouts at that time where sourced from a very bitter, sour seed, and a sciencetist fixed them to make them taste better now, by finding a not bitter seed in a seed vault and cultivating Not ****ty Brussel Sprouts.

Also everyone disagreeing with Rater is wrong; the reason why people didn't like vegetables growing up is because a lot of your parents just can't cook.

Yeah, the engineered a sprout that's much less bitter, but it still smells like ass if you boil it too long. The less bitter strain helps, but you still gotta cook it right.

Canned vegetables are the worst: This stuff is, strictly speaking, already cooked but do most people cook it enough to reheat on the stove? Nope, dump the can in and boil it for as long as if you were boiling fresh vegetables.

As a rule of thumb, if the vegetable tastes better before you cooked it, you're cooking it wrong. And some vegetables require very specific preparations.

Take beets: Beets are earthy and slightly bitter, but can easily become bland if you make them wrong, so it's best to serve them as part of a dish with other strong flavors.

Like, the best suggestion for beets I've seen is to steam them, peel them, then roast them with herbs and shallots... And then cut them up, layer them in a mason jar with french cut red onions, and let them pickle for a weak with a vinegar-based brine.

[Peelee]

Canned vegetables are the worst: This stuff is, strictly speaking, already cooked but do most people cook it enough to reheat on the stove? Nope, dump the can in and boil it for as long as if you were boiling fresh vegetables.

It really sounds like it's less of an issue of "everybody does it wrong" and more of an issue of "everyone that you personally know does it wrong". I've never heard of anyone boiling vegetables (with the exception of corn), let alone always boiling all vegetables, let alone canned vegetables!

[Insane Jeenyus]

I guess I've never had a sweet potato pie done right, then.

That is a real bummer.

You're starting with items that have a fairly subtle flavor as is, mixing them with a lot of cream and sugar (so the overall flavor profile at this point is basically dairy fat + sweet with orange food coloring), and then throwing a mix of fairly strong spices on top. It takes way more sweet potato/pumpkin than are used in most recipes for those to become really notable parts of the end flavor (and you get a much denser/less custard-y pie, too.)

..unless, apparently, you're Rater and are on your way to becoming a harvest vegetable pie snob

The pies I refer to were made from scratch, even to the point of starting with a pumpkin.

It's a four-day weekend for a significant majority of people in the US. So I'm not sure what you mean.


^[1]"Thanksgiving (United States)", Wikipedia, 2020-11-27, retrieved 2020-11-27. Can't quote Wikipedia without a citation after all!

Case in point, I live in the United States, and I am working right now.

I worked today, I too live in the USA and I work in a factory.

The caveat is that I am trying to save as much vacation time as possible for a road trip with my brother i n the summer.

[Bartmanhomer]

I've read recently that the Brussel Sprouts you remember being bad are because all of the sprouts at that time where sourced from a very bitter, sour seed, and a scientist fixed them to make them taste better now, by finding a not bitter seed in a seed vault and cultivating Not ****ty Brussel Sprouts.

Also, everyone disagreeing with Rater is wrong; the reason why people didn't like vegetables growing up is that a lot of your parents just can't cook.

You're wrong Zodi. When my mother was alive so many years ago she has been cooking vegetables and it tastes very good. I love vegetables and any other food groups. So I disagree with your statement.

[Rater202]

It really sounds like it's less of an issue of "everybody does it wrong" and more of an issue of "everyone that you personally know does it wrong". I've never heard of anyone boiling vegetables (with the exception of corn), let alone always boiling all vegetables, let alone canned vegetables!

Really? Becuase boiling(or sometimes steaming) vegetables that don't take well to boiling(most greens) well past the point where they'd be considered done seems, from what I've heard and what I've seen, to be the standard reason people in America don't like vegetables.

[Mystic Muse]

You're wrong Zodi. When my mother was alive so many years ago she has been cooking vegetables and it tastes very good. I love vegetables and any other food groups. So I disagree with your statement.

Well, if you liked veggies growing up, Zodi's statement doesn't really apply to you, since it was directed at people who didn't like veggies growing up.

Also, IIRC they're legumes not veggies, but I despise beans. The texture is just awful.

Other than Jelly Beans, which are in no way nutritious.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, if you liked veggies growing up, Zodi's statement doesn't apply to you, since it was directed at people who didn't like veggies growing up.

Also, IIRC they're legumes, not veggies, but I despise beans. The texture is just awful.

Other than Jelly Beans, which are in no way nutritious.

Well, I feel like I need to say something about it. That's why I responded. Jelly Beans is nutritious? Wait a minute, doesn't jelly beans have a lot of sugar in it?

[Rater202]

Also, IIRC they're legumes not veggies, but I despise beans. The texture is just awful.

Other than Jelly Beans, which are in no way nutritious.

Well, that's not so much a cooking issue. Beans are one of those "either you like them or you don't" things.

There's not much way of cooking beans to make them seem good if you don't like them, except by maybe processing them into something else and even then I think that only works with soybeans.

I don't much like beans either, which is part of the reason I don't eat chili: My family fall strictly on the "beans in" camp and refuse to try any beans out recipe I suggest

For the record, the only purpose beans serve in chili is starch and filler. It thickens the mixture and stretches out the meat. You can use any carb that plays well with the spice and vegetables you use and it's just as valid as beans.

Some recipes suggest using crushed tortilla chips, which I think would make for a more even texture.

Some people say that beans are authentic, but... Look, unless you're using wild beans, scavenged vegetables, a piece of chuck that's already started to go back, a big heart, sheep eyes and/or testicles, a rattlesnake you killed yourself, and enough dried chilies to cover up how awful this tastes, you're not making authentic chili.

Chili was invented by frontier people as a way of stretching out meat and covering up the taste of spoiled meat. low-quality portions of non-spoiled meat, or wild game.

[Peelee]

Really? Becuase boiling(or sometimes steaming) vegetables that don't take well to boiling(most greens) well past the point where they'd be considered done seems, from what I've heard and what I've seen, to be the standard reason people in America don't like vegetables.

Now steaming is useful, but I've seen very few recipes that call for boiling veggies (corn bring the most notable exception, and even then that's only one way to cook it). Steaming is great (though, like all cooking, not if you overdo it), as well as sautéing, frying, baking, grilling, heck even deep-frying is fantastic for things like okra or fried green tomatoes.

Oh, i retract my statements on boiling, btw - my mind skipped over mashed potatoes and basically any pot roast, where the celery and carrots get just delightfully soft.

Also, IIRC they're legumes not veggies

Legumes are vegetables. "vegetable" is a culinary term, not biological - mushrooms, which are an entirely different kingdom of life to plants and animals, are vegetables. I can't see any reason why legumes would get a special exception.

IIRC Peelee is from a part of the United States generally known for a higher level of culinary competency, at least as far as taste is concerned.

As proud as I like to be about the very specific area I'm located in (and accepting of the ugly warts and all), I'm actually of the belief that all parts of the world have a high level of culinary competency in their chosen areas. Southern barbecue is a beauty to behold, but no less than New York pizza, Louisiana Cajun, Philly cheesesteaks, LA fusion, full English breakfasts, Ukrainian borscht, etc. etc. One of the great uniters among all people is a love of good food.

Except Chicago. They make abominations in Chicago.

[Anonymouswizard]

Also everyone disagreeing with Rater is wrong; the reason why people didn't like vegetables growing up is because a lot of your parents just can't cook.

Not true, my dad is an excellent cook and my mum is decent. I didn't like vegetables as a child because I had a weird palette until I was like 3/4, and that continued for the next few years. These days I'm one of the few among my friends who does know how to cook vegetables (including 'if you have to boil boil in stock'), including correcting somebody on a dish I've never looked at a recipe for, let alone prepared, because I've seen how the vegetables curl.

Then again, I've also had to point out that risotto doesn't cook properly if you their all the water in and crush a stock cube into it, the rice just cooks better if you do it properly.


Side note, why are people do against psionics in their fantasy. I've looked them ever since I first saw Star Wars, liked them even more sheet setting the D&D 3e rules for them, and since picking up the new 5e book the characters I want to play are almost exclusively using the new options, especially the vhuman (Telekinetic) Fighter (Psi Warrior). It's not that it's strong, it's that battling with your pure mind is cool. If only I could work out a decent way to telekinetically wield a sword at lowish levels, then take Dual Weapon style to have two blades flying around me.

That's just as fantasy as muttering words to create fire. Imagine a woman in full plate striding through the battlefield, blades following the motions of her hands and zipping from one enemy to another. It's some as anything, but whoever said anime was bad?

[Qwertystop]

Side note, why are people do against psionics in their fantasy. I've looked them ever since I first saw Star Wars, liked them even more sheet setting the D&D 3e rules for them, and since picking up the new 5e book the characters I want to play are almost exclusively using the new options, especially the vhuman (Telekinetic) Fighter (Psi Warrior). It's not that it's strong, it's that battling with your pure mind is cool. If only I could work out a decent way to telekinetically wield a sword at lowish levels, then take Dual Weapon style to have two blades flying around me.

That's just as fantasy as muttering words to create fire. Imagine a woman in full plate striding through the battlefield, blades following the motions of her hands and zipping from one enemy to another. It's some as anything, but whoever said anime was bad?

I think the issue is that that particular kind of magic is more likely to turn up in works that are going for a generally soft-sci-fi tone, partly because Star Wars, partly because of inertia. To my understanding, we have all those different words for psychic effects like "telekinetic" and "telepathic" and "clairvoyant" in large part because there was a period of time when that stuff was genuinely, seriously studied, and so there exists sci-fi about a hypothetical future when these effects were understood and magnified through training in large parts of the population. Also, the idea of a more literal "brainpower" appeals to both the writers and the audience of a lot of the old pulps. It established a genre tendency – if you do it by manipulating mystic energies that exist out in the world, or bargaining with spirits, or muttering words and drawing sigils and runes, it's magic and that's fantasy, but if it's the power of the human mind, that's sci-fi.

[Peelee]

Not true, my dad is an excellent cook and my mum is decent. I didn't like vegetables as a child because I had a weird palette until I was like 3/4, and that continued for the next few years. These days I'm one of the few among my friends who does know how to cook vegetables (including 'if you have to boil boil in stock'), including correcting somebody on a dish I've never looked at a recipe for, let alone prepared, because I've seen how the vegetables curl.

Then again, I've also had to point out that risotto doesn't cook properly if you their all the water in and crush a stock cube into it, the rice just cooks better if you do it properly.


Side note, why are people do against psionics in their fantasy. I've looked them ever since I first saw Star Wars, liked them even more sheet setting the D&D 3e rules for them, and since picking up the new 5e book the characters I want to play are almost exclusively using the new options, especially the vhuman (Telekinetic) Fighter (Psi Warrior). It's not that it's strong, it's that battling with your pure mind is cool. If only I could work out a decent way to telekinetically wield a sword at lowish levels, then take Dual Weapon style to have two blades flying around me.

That's just as fantasy as muttering words to create fire. Imagine a woman in full plate striding through the battlefield, blades following the motions of her hands and zipping from one enemy to another. It's some as anything, but whoever said anime was bad?

Psionics don't tend to be fluffed enough to differentiate them from sorcerers, and I'm not sure, but do they effectively get Subtle Spell as a permanent ability for free?

[Anonymouswizard]

I think the issue is that that particular kind of magic is more likely to turn up in works that are going for a generally soft-sci-fi tone, partly because Star Wars, partly because of inertia. To my understanding, we have all those different words for psychic effects like "telekinetic" and "telepathic" and "clairvoyant" in large part because there was a period of time when that stuff was genuinely, seriously studied, and so there exists sci-fi about a hypothetical future when these effects were understood and magnified through training in large parts of the population. Also, the idea of a more literal "brainpower" appeals to both the writers and the audience of a lot of the old pulps. It established a genre tendency – if you do it by manipulating mystic energies that exist out in the world, or bargaining with spirits, or muttering words and drawing sigils and runes, it's magic and that's fantasy, but if it's the power of the human mind, that's sci-fi.

By sci-fi you mean fantasy, right? (Okay, I'll leave the high horse here).

There was also a time where magic was studied seriously, it's where we get all these words like 'divination', 'pyromancy', and 'polisurgy' from, so I don't get that much as an argument. It's not like psionics were the subject of serious research pretty recently.

Oh, and Star Wars isn't sci-fi. I will die in this hill.

Why must Whirling Telekinetic Blades [Doctor Who sting] of Death be locked behind certain fluff. It's all mystical superpower stuff, if the rules let me do it by raw brainpower why do people like to ban that option but leave in every other version of mystical superpower stuff.

Heck, why is the psychic adept so much harder to grasp than the Monk? They both arguably have the same fluff, 'I'm so enlightened that I got kewl powerz'.

Psionics don't tend to be fluffed enough to differentiate them from sorcerers, and I'm not sure, but do they effectively get Subtle Spell as a permanent ability for free?

Psionic Feats give it if they replicate a spell. Two of the three phonic subclasses just get s bunch of abilities activated by dice, the third (the Sorcerer's Aberrant Mind) I believe gets what's essentially Subtle Spell for their subclass spells but maybe less costly? I'm AFB.

Also, no Extra Sensory Perception feat. I guess it was obvious going in but still a bit of a shame.

[Peelee]

Fair enough. I still associate the "people who don't like vegetables adding enough butter and bacon to them to make them delicious" phenomenon with the South.

Fair, but don't forget deep frying! I can't mention fried okra and fried green tomatoes enough.

[Rater202]

People don't like psionics in fantasy because they associated it with science fiction and superheroes.

Never mind that psionics being "scientific" rather than "pseudo-scientific" is a modern conception and things like reading minds, moving things without touching them, levitating, astral projection, and the like all used to be considered part of spiritualism, mysticism, or flat out sorcery...

{scrubbed}

And only a casual fan would think of what happens in Star Wars os "psionics." Yeah, it's short-term clairvoyance, sensing others' thoughts ad feelings, and moving things with your mind... But it's also conjuring the elements(lightning in the movies but expanded universe also includes fire) projecting yourself into the spiritual realm, coming back as an immortal spirit far stronger than you were in life, healing psychological damage instantly without therapy, healing people by moving life force from one person to another, killing people by doing the same, binding ghosts to yourself, and if you're willing to fo into Dark Side exclusive powers you have altering organisms on a fundamental level, literally just flat out sorcery, and conjuring pure life energy ex nilho that can be used to heal people, bring them back to life, or even cause a woman to become pregnant and give birth to a genetically distinct child without having had sex first.

All of this is done by manipulating the cosmic power of a massive energy field, infinite in power, that is connected to all living things.

Screw you, that's magic. Star Wars ain't no sci-fi, it's what happens when a western, a samurai flick, and high fantasy have a drunken three-way and the baby decides to be an astronaut when it grows up.

Basically, people who say "I don't want sci-fi in my fantasy so no psionics" don't know what they're talking about.

Now, no psionics in D&D is another issue. That's usually because it's not uh, included very well, mechanically speaking.

[Peelee]

People don't like psionics in fantasy because they associated it with science fiction and superheroes.

[snip]

And only a casual fan would think of what happens in Star Wars os "psionics." er, that is connected to all living things.

[snip]

Basically, people who say "I don't want sci-fi in my fantasy so no psionics" don't know what they're talking about.

There is a whole lot of certainty there that I'm not sure is warranted. Not to mention being pretty gatekeepy - there's nothing wrong with casual fans, and their opinions are just as valid.

[Bartmanhomer]

Psionics is awesome. I should know, I'm a psion myself and I can see that there's going to be a space alien invasion coming to this planet real soon.

[Rater202]

There is a whole lot of certainty there that I'm not sure is warranted. Not to mention being pretty gatekeepy - there's nothing wrong with casual fans, and their opinions are just as valid.

I apologize if that's how it comes across, but I'm just stating facts: "Psionics" being a sci-fi thing is very modern and for most of history they were either considered magic or at least spiritual.

And, likewise, while The Force might seem like psychic powers to someone who just watches the movies for entertainment, but on repeated watching or if you consume a lot of EU materials it is abundantly clear that the force is much more mystical and spiritual than most "modern" depictions of psionics.

Someone isn't a bad person for not knowing these things, but if they're making decisions on whether or not psionics have a place in fantasy based assumptions based on only modern depictions of psychic powers or "look at star wars, psychic powers are sci-fi not fantasy" then they're making decisions based in ignornance.

[Peelee]

I apologize if that's how it comes across, but I'm just stating facts: "Psionics" being a sci-fi thing is very modern and for most of history they were either considered magic or at least spiritual.

And, likewise, while The Force might seem like psychic powers to someone who just watches the movies for entertainment, but on repeated watching or if you consume a lot of EU materials it is abundantly clear that the force is much more mystical and spiritual than most "modern" depictions of psionics.

Someone isn't a bad person for not knowing these things, but if they're making decisions on whether or not psionics have a place in fantasy based assumptions based on only modern depictions of psychic powers or "look at star wars, psychic powers are sci-fi not fantasy" then they're making decisions based in ignornance.

The Force was supposed to be mystical, but it always had a vaguely scientific backing from the beginning - Kenobi described it as an energy field. Yoda was more mystical, which was intended, even if a lot of his lines were originally Kenobi's. But once TPM came out, to became decidedly non-mystical and purely biological.

All that aside, though, I don't think it's entirely accurate to say "all people who dislike psionics deslike it because they view it as sci-fi in a fantasy game, and are this casual fans because they solely equate it to things like Star Wars". You are ignoring that people are different and like and dislike things for different and varied reasons. People may not like psionics because they don't seem differentiated enough from sorcerers (me, for example). Some people dislike a third magic source, which requires the question "does psionic-magic transparency exist in this game?" Some people dislike it same as they dislike the sorcerer, they think the Wizard should be the only or the main Arcane powerhouse. And so on and so on.

Its your absolute certainty that you know the answer and the only answer that I'm really objecting to here.

[Qwertystop]

Also – there's a lot more to whether it's sci-fi than whether the science makes sense. There's significant aesthetic elements, too – Pern provides a lot of sci-fi-esque explanations backing the dragons, the periodic doom is specifically a microorganism from a nearby planet in the same system that occasionally passes close enough for accidental transfers in high orbit, and the dragons are gengineered. Nevertheless, for most of the series it's very definitely a fantasy story – medieval tech level, an esteemed (mostly) order of dragon-riders, etc. Star Wars, meanwhile, for all that Jedi are blatantly mystical battle-sages, is a story of space-ships and laser guns; the science is soft but this is not a fantasy aesthetic.

[Rater202]

But once TPM came out, to became decidedly non-mystical and purely biological.

No, not really.

"Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you."

This isn't "the force is bacteria in you blood," this is "The thing that lets us use the force is also the reason why life exists and the force uses them as conduits to impart upon us its will."

This is very much still leaning heavily on the mysticism.

They're not the source of the force. A most, it's an explanation for why some people are more sensitive to the force than others.

All that aside, though, I don't think it's entirely accurate to say "all people who dislike psionics deslike it because they view it as sci-fi in a fantasy game, and are this casual fans because they solely equate it to things like Star Wars". You are ignoring that people are different and like and dislike things for different and varied reasons. People may not like psionics because they don't seem differentiated enough from sorcerers (me, for example). Some people dislike a third magic source, which requires the question "does psionic-magic transparency exist in this game?" Some people dislike it same as they dislike the sorcerer, they think the Wizard should be the only or the main Arcane powerhouse. And so on and so on.

Its your absolute certainty that you know the answer and the only answer that I'm really objecting to here.

....One, I was speaking in general terms: Generally, "I don't want Sci-Fi" is the reason I usually see for excluding psionics from fantasy games.

Just like, generally, "I don't want anime in my D&D" is why people exclude Tome of Battle.

The casual fans thing is more a commentary on how people view Star Wars: Star Wars is not a Sci-Fi series. It has Sci-Fi elements, but only someone who only casually engages wth with the series would mistake it for pure sci-fi, or take the force as being psychic powers. The arguments are basically unrelate. Star Wars was cited as an example of psionics in sci-fi and I was explaining why that is wrong.

At no point did I deliberately imply that being a casual fan of Star Wars was a bad thing. All I said was that only a casual fan would confuse it for science fiction or think of the force as psychic powers.

And I did state that there was a difference between not liking psionis in fantasy in general and not likeing psionics in D&D, which is usually because it is poorly implemented.

[Peelee]

Also – there's a lot more to whether it's sci-fi than whether the science makes sense. There's significant aesthetic elements, too – Pern provides a lot of sci-fi-esque explanations backing the dragons, the periodic doom is specifically a microorganism from a nearby planet in the same system that occasionally passes close enough for accidental transfers in high orbit, and the dragons are gengineered. Nevertheless, for most of the series it's very definitely a fantasy story – medieval tech level, an esteemed (mostly) order of dragon-riders, etc. Star Wars, meanwhile, for all that Jedi are blatantly mystical battle-sages, is a story of space-ships and laser guns; the science is soft but this is not a fantasy aesthetic.

Indeed. I generally classify Sci-fi as any story that relies on futuristic technologies as part of the setting or plot. That, I think, captures the overall theme of most sci-fi stories, regardless of how hard or soft they are.

[Rater202]

Sometimes I wish I was a big monster rampaging through a city and laughing at the itty bitty ant who think their puny intercontinental ballistic missiles could so much as tickle me.

This is another one of those reasons why I probably shouldn't be given power.

[factotum]

Regarding psionics and fantasy: I'm actually struggling to think of any fantasy work which includes them. The closest is probably Julian May's Many-Coloured Land series of books, but that's explicitly science fiction (people are sent back in time to an Earth six million years ago, which they find to be occupied by a pair of alien species at constant war with each other). Great books, don't get me wrong, but not really fantasy as we know it. Does anyone know of any well-regarded fantasy series that *does* have psionic powers in it?

[tyckspoon]

Regarding psionics and fantasy: I'm actually struggling to think of any fantasy work which includes them. The closest is probably Julian May's Many-Coloured Land series of books, but that's explicitly science fiction (people are sent back in time to an Earth six million years ago, which they find to be occupied by a pair of alien species at constant war with each other). Great books, don't get me wrong, but not really fantasy as we know it. Does anyone know of any well-regarded fantasy series that *does* have psionic powers in it?

Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books (which are, and I say this in affection, YA trash) pretty prominently feature mind-based magics, especially with the Heralds and their magical horses.
Katheryn Kurtz's Deryni novels; the magic of the eponymous Deryni is largely depicted as psionics to start with, although later books featured a lot of rituals and artifacts that look a lot more like traditional fantasy magic.
Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books have psionic magic, and although you can call a lot of it sci-fi if you want (Darkover is an Earth colony and is eventually recontacted and reintegrated to a spacefaring society) a significant portion of the books are set in the planet's Dark Ages and are pretty standard medievalesque fantasy.
Roger Zelazny's Amber? Quite a lot of the powers there make more sense as psychic gifts than magic..

(If you happen to notice this is all from no later than like mid 90s, well, its what my parents had on their bookshelves and what my local library had when I hung out there for a couple hours every day reading YA trash and terrible books full of bad puns after school.)

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, marine I'm a casual fan because I don't have time to drive into what's 'force use versus Sith Sorcery versus Sith Alchemy versus Jedi Mindfulness' and all that mess. In the fantasy films that are Star Wars Jedi use psychic powers. Psychic powers with a mysical element, but still psychic powers.

At the end of the day it's all mystical power things anyway, who cares if I call The Force magic or psionics? In the films at least it's uses the trappings of paining, so it's what 90% of people would put it under.

At the end of the day I just want to be able to wield a weapon with my mind, like a Darth Trays thing. Although I guess that could be it's own subclass, hmmmmmmmm...

[BisectedBrioche]

Psionics is awesome. I should know, I'm a psion myself and I can see that there's going to be a space alien invasion coming to this planet real soon.

Thanks a lot for grassing. Now we're going to have to reschedule!

[factotum]

Roger Zelazny's Amber? Quite a lot of the powers there make more sense as psychic gifts than magic..

That's the only one of the ones you list I've actually read, and it never really struck me as psychic powers--the explicit power possessed by the folk of Amber is the ability to travel between parallel realities, plus some fast healing type stuff.