Rater's Ridiculously Rambunctious Random Ranter #229

[LaZodiac]

..... Nnnno, that's still prejudice. Like, that literally would not happen if it wasn't prejudice.

I think you define words differently than how they're commonly accepted.

I believe what Rater is saying is that MAGNETO isn't being prejudiced, because the people going against him are at a level where it's just not equal, if that makes sense.

[Peelee]

I believe what Rater is saying is that MAGNETO isn't being prejudiced, because the people going against him are at a level where it's just not equal, if that makes sense.

Imean, I didn't claim that he was (at least, not specifically then) - Magneto's issue is that there will always be prejudice against a certain group of people. That's not a hot tale. The level of prejudice is extreme, sure, but that still doesn't justify his actions. His solution is also prejudiced, as he wants to remove all non-mutants from the equation. Magneto doesn't have to be the worst person to still be a bad person, and he doesn't have to be the most prejudiced to be prejudiced.

Magneto is prejudiced and is a bad person who does bad things. Sure, there are worse people doing worse things over worse prejudice. That doesn't make him right. He's still wrong in what he does.

[Lord Raziere]

Inconceivable!

Irreconcialatory! Complicatedness! Unrecovably Cromulent! brilliastic! Ironic! hits me right in the vorpal zeitgeist it does, so much that I'll have to resort to a quid pro quo to elucidate this! quite combobulatory if I do say so myself.

[Bartmanhomer]

Imean, I didn't claim that he was (at least, not specifically then) - Magneto's issue is that there will always be prejudice against a certain group of people. That's not a hot tale. The level of prejudice is extreme, sure, but that still doesn't justify his actions. His solution is also prejudiced, as he wants to remove all non-mutants from the equation. Magneto doesn't have to be the worst person to still be a bad person, and he doesn't have to be the most prejudiced to be prejudiced.

Magneto is prejudiced and is a bad person who does bad things. Sure, there are worse people doing worse things over worse prejudice. That doesn't make him right. He's still wrong in what he does.

I don't think no one else can tops Magneto. Maybe the Sub-Mariner and Grod the Gorilla.

[Rater202]

..... Nnnno, that's still prejudice. Like, that literally would not happen if it wasn't prejudice.

I think you define words differently than how they're commonly accepted.

Let me rephrase: It stops being "just" prejudice. Prejudice is too mild a word for that.

Prejudice is prejudging someone based on traits: An old man who is suspicious of every Latino he meets becuase a boy who happened to be Mexican broke into his garage ten years ago and he just can't let it go is prejudiced, as he is prejudging everyone of a certain category over his experiences with one person.

When there is a systematic effort by the people in power to dehumanize and exterminate a minority, that is a few steps beyond mere prejudice, that stops being mere prejudice and starts being a genocide.

Magneto wasn't arguing that there would be prejudice. Magneto was arguing that there would be genocide, and there have been 21 unrelated attempts to commit genocide against mutants in the time since Magneto was first introduced in the comics.

"Magneto was right in that there will be prejudice but wrong in other ways" is like saying that the Weatherman predicted a hurricane, suggested taking appropriate measures to protect against a hurricane, a hurricane happened killed a bunch of people, and then an observer says "well, the weatherman was right in that there was rain, but wrong in how to approach it."

And while I'm at it: Magneto does not want to remove non-mutants from the equation. He simply wants to rule the world so that he can ensure that genocide does not happen.

Per God Loves, Man Kills, baseline humans will be second class citizens at the absolute worst in Magneto's regime.

There was one attempt by someone claiming to be Magneto to commit genocide of baseline humans, but that story was being written by someone who hated the character and it was almost immediately retconned to be an imposter trying to ruin Magneto's reputation.

[Anonymouswizard]

I don't think no one else can tops Magneto.

I don't know, I hear they're giving him a new love interest next year. This is not true, unless it is, Anonymouswizard does not know anything about comics.

[Peelee]

Let me rephrase: It stops being "just" prejudice. Prejudice is too mild a word for that.

Prejudice is prejudging someone based on traits: An old man who is suspicious of every Latino he meets becuase a boy who happened to be Mexican broke into his garage ten years ago and he just can't let it go is prejudiced, as he is prejudging everyone of a certain category over his experiences with one person.

When there is a systematic effort by the people in power to dehumanize and exterminate a minority, that is a few steps beyond mere prejudice, that stops being mere prejudice and starts being a genocide.

Magneto wasn't arguing that there would be prejudice. Magneto was arguing that there would be genocide, and there have been 21 unrelated attempts to commit genocide against mutants in the time since Magneto was first introduced in the comics.

"Magneto was right in that there will be prejudice but wrong in other ways" is like saying that the Weatherman predicted a hurricane, suggested taking appropriate measures to protect against a hurricane, a hurricane happened killed a bunch of people, and then an observer says "well, the weatherman was right in that there was rain, but wrong in how to approach it."

OK, so I agree with all that, but what is the point you're making? Because again, Magneto doesn't need to be worse than them to still be a bad person who does bad things. If Al commits genocide and as a reaction to that Bob kicks crutches out from the elderly, yeah, nobody is arguing that Bob is worse, but Bob is still an *******. Magneto doesn't get bonus points for not attempting genocide.

[Rater202]

I don't know, I hear they're giving him a new love interest next year. This is not true, unless it is, Anonymouswizard does not know anything about comics.

No, but Superior Spider-Man volume 2 had an elderly married couple modeled on Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen so...

[Bartmanhomer]

I don't know, I hear they're giving him a new love interest next year. This is not true, unless it is, Anonymouswizard does not know anything about comics.

Then why did you say it then?

Oh yes. Stormfront also as well I forgot to add her to the list.

[Anonymouswizard]

Then why did you say it then?

Because I was making a joke? And noting that it was just a joke?

No, but Superior Spider-Man volume 2 had an elderly married couple modeled on Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen so...

[Peelee]

No, but Superior Spider-Man volume 2 had an elderly married couple modeled on Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen so...

That's pretty awesome. If we're wishing for superpowers then I wish for the power to grant health and longevity. And then hang out around those guys.

And then probably set up a drive-thru lane or two.

[Rater202]

OK, so I agree with all that, but what is the point you're making? Because again, Magneto doesn't need to be worse than them to still be a bad person who does bad things. If Al commits genocide and as a reaction to that Bob kicks crutches out from the elderly, yeah, nobody is arguing that Bob is worse, but Bob is still an *******. Magneto doesn't get bonus points for not attempting genocide.

Here's the thing: Magneto isn't the bad guy.

He hasn't been depicted as a bad guy since the 80s, excepting one occasion where it was almost immediately revealed to be an imposter.

He's depicted as being extreme, he's sometimes depicted as being wrong to suggest extreme measures, but he's very rarely depicted as being the bad guy.

Now, cartoons and movies use him as a villain becuase "Magneto was Charles Xaver's friend who turned evil" is a compelling enough origin story for a villain, but that runs into the problem of muddying the issue as people who aren't familiar with the comics have a drastically skewed idea of who he is.

Likewise, the movies left out that people like rogue and Cyclops can't control their powers becuase of trauma and brain damage. And that Rogue in the comics doesn't want to be rid of her powers. I've had so many arguments with people pulling that one clip of Storm telling Rogue that she's not sick that no, in the comics rogue is not sick, she's traumatized and wants to overcome it instead of crippling herself becuase it's easier than getting therapy.

Like, in the comics it's never people with inhuman appearances or uncontrollable powers who want to be "cured." It's always normal-looking people with decent powers who claim to hate themselves. People like Rogue and Wither want to control it.

[Peelee]

Here's the thing: Magneto isn't the bad guy.

Yes. He is. He's not the worst guy. They may not portray him as a bad guy. But he is definitely a bad guy. Everything everyone has said about him in this thread, including things you yourself said just now paint him as a bad guy.

Again, he doesn't get bonus points for not committing genocide. That's kind of a given for most people, even bad guys, even overt villains.

If you want to argue that he's not the worst person then sure. No argument here. If you want to argue that he's not a bad person at all? No. That bird don't fly.

[Rater202]

Again, he doesn't get bonus points for not committing genocide

If someone is actively attempting to murder millions of people and cannot be convinced not to, killing that person is morally justifiable under many philosophies.

Magneto... In the comics, if he decided that life on Earth was a lost cause, he could wipe it out with a thought.

Magneto's plans to take over the world to ensure that Genocide doesn't happen would have worked if he was willing to just up and murder a few thousand people.

But he doesn't. Becuase he is actively trying to prevent the loss of life. There was a comic where he considered doing something extreme by his usual standard and then aborted the plan after having a nightmare of being congratulated by Hitler's Ghost.

He hasn't even tried to take over the world since the 80s. He's mostly just "Chuck's extremist friend who sits off in his asteroid/island/floating city and occasionally encourages us to be more proactive instead of waiting for the crap to hit the fan," except for the times when he's actively working with the X-Men as a member.

Oh, Hell: There were plans to have him join The Avengers at one point.

The worst thing he's done recently is trying to kill Emma Frost... Because Emma Frost did something that forced Magneto to kill five innocent people in self-defense after having previously promised to protect those same people with his life, but that's a long complicated story and honestly it's weird that the narrative treats him as being in the wrong for that.

[Mystic Muse]

So, on a completely different topic.

I hate the practice of bosses telling you a physically impossible goal because they want you to manage like 50-60% of it.

Not as bad as the bosses who somehow expect you to pull off something that is literally impossible, but still.

[Peelee]

If someone is actively attempting to murder millions of people and cannot be convinced not to, killing that person is morally justifiable under many philosophies.

And making all innocent people who shared demographics with that person second-class citizens is not.

Msgneto wasn't a "let me stop the only the specific people doing bad things". Magneto was "**** all non-mutants". To varying degrees of severity, sure, but I don't really care if he keeps it relatively low-key.

[Bartmanhomer]

Because I was making a joke? And noting that it was just a joke?

Ok. I miss the joke.

[Rater202]

That's pretty awesome. If we're wishing for superpowers then I wish for the power to grant health and longevity. And then hang out around those guys.

And then probably set up a drive-thru lane or two.

Yeah, but then you've got people bitching att you for playing god or interfering in the course of nature or arguing that immortality is evil.

Honestly, it'd be better to just make everyone permanently young and healthy at once in a way that can't be traced back to you

So, on a completely different topic.

I hate the practice of bosses telling you a physically impossible goal because they want you to manage like 50-60% of it.

Not as bad as the bosses who somehow expect you to pull off something that is literally impossible, but still.

Yes, toxic employment practices suck.

And if you call them on it you get fired.

[Lord Raziere]

And making all innocent people who shared demographics with that person second-class citizens is not.

Msgneto wasn't a "let me stop the only the specific people doing bad things". Magneto was "**** all non-mutants". To varying degrees of severity, sure, but I don't really care if he keeps it relatively low-key.

Yeeaaaah. much of his rhetoric smacks of perpetuating the very injustices and poisonous ideas that he claims to fight against, but with mutants instead of humans. I wouldn't consider him a good person, not by a longshot.

[Rater202]

Yeeaaaah. much of his rhetoric smacks of perpetuating the very injustices and poisonous ideas that he claims to fight against, but with mutants instead of humans. I wouldn't consider him a good person, not by a longshot.

Yes. Mageto at his worst was not a good person.

Magneto at his worst is "I rule the world and humans aren't allowed to be in charge anymore."

But he hasn't been that since the 80s. I bring up the "second class citizens" thing to point out that he's not planning to remove non-mutants from existence, but when I say he hasn't been a bad guy since the 80s I mean it literally.

Magneto for most of the time he's been a character: "I'm mostly alternating between helping Charles with his dream, ruling Island countries as sanctuaries for Mutants and their allies from prosecution, and chilling out in my secret lair."

Unless you want to talk about the Ultimate Universe, but we don't talk about the Ultimate Universe.

[Peelee]

Yes. Mageto at his worst was not a good person.

Magneto at his worst is "I rule the world and humans aren't allowed to be in charge anymore."

Magneto at his worst is a monster, no different than the genocidal maniacs we've talked about already. Magneto as his best is not a good person.

But he hasn't been that since the 80s. I bring up the "second class citizens" thing to point out that he's not planning to remove non-mutants from existence, but when I say he hasn't been a bad guy since the 80s I mean it literally.

Except the 90s. And 2000s. The 2010s I don't know about, but ya know what, not gonna worry about hedging my bets here.

Magneto for most of the time he's been a character: "I'm mostly alternating between helping Charles with his dream, ruling Island countries as sanctuaries for Mutants and their allies from prosecution, and chilling out in my secret lair."

Oh, so a place where people who are different from them aren't allowed and things will be separate because they're going to be segregated.

And that would be different from the place where people are trying to enforce "people who are different from us shouldn't be allowed and things should be separate because we're going to be segregated" in very meaningful ways, I'm sure.

[Rater202]

I have no way of responding to that last point without making comparisons that break the no-politics rule, so I will be dropping the subject.

Unfortunately, I have no alternative topic to change to, so unless someone wants to go back to talking about the logistics of distributing enhanced health and longevity or a debate on the benefits of symbiotes I have nothing.

[LaZodiac]

Here's a topic for y'all; what is the pettiest thing you've ever seen someone do? Because I've seen my fair of petty, petulant jag offs, and I'm curious what all of you have seen.

[Rater202]

Here's a topic for y'all; what is the pettiest thing you've ever seen someone do? Because I've seen my fair of petty, petulant jag offs, and I'm curious what all of you have seen.

You know how I mentioned being gasslit by a teacher a bit back?

To reiterate on that story, we had two teachers that year who each tought two of the four main subjects and we switched rooms with the other kid.

In the "Math and Social Studies" room, we were allowed to talk during work time.

The English and Science teacher walks in, sees that half of the kids are talking, and immediately inflict a harsh punishment on the entire class for doing something we were allowed to be doing.

I still don't know why the teacher who was actually in charge enforced the guest teacher's punishment.

(And then, even though she had a clear line of sight on me the entire time, insists that I was talking when I am asked why I'm upset and I answer its' becuase I got punished for something I didn't do and let's please not have an argument over the definition of gaslighting again, the point is a teacher with a history of abusive behavior neither apologized nor called me a liar when confronted on her behavior.)

Same teacher: I was thrown out of class for the whole rest of the year but expected to do the work I wasn't there to receive or be taught on in the fifth grade because the teacher asked the class "you all want to go on this field trip, right?" to the class and I said "no" becuase I always opted out of field trips in elementary school unless it was to a place I had already been and knew what to expect becuase I am autistic and don't cope well to crowds, new experiences that aren't under my control, or unnecessary disruptions to my routine and becuase field trips are supposed to be something you can opt-out of.

I get screamed at, and then I technically failed the fifth grade.

Same teacher: Science Class, we are doing an "experiment" that consists of following an unlabeled diagram to assemble a system of strings and pulleys hanging off the desk. Most of the class takes more than a few minutes to figure it out becuase the diagram is unlabeled and there are no actual instructions, so the entire class gets screamed out, we are all told we failed the lab, and then she throws a test on the floor and tells us to pick it up and take it at home to make up the grade.

Which of the three do you think sounds the pettiest?

[LaZodiac]

Definitely the third one. The first one is just an example of the school's hierarchy being absurd (in no world does a teacher get to punish the students of another student in their own class what the hell) and the first one is just spiteful (a real teacher would have to bite their tongue to avoid laughing at a kid saying no to that, it's ****ing hilarious).

The third one is genuinely just petty.

[Anonymouswizard]

When carers have entered the kitchen at work I've refused to serve them until they leave door and turn around before.

Because I learnt early on that if I don't make other people follow the letter of the rules they'll stop following the spirit and then Zi get blamed for people walking into the kitchen.

[Rater202]

When carers have entered the kitchen at work I've refused to serve them until they leave door and turn around before.

Because I learnt early on that if I don't make other people follow the letter of the rules they'll stop following the spirit and then Zi get blamed for people walking into the kitchen.

As I understand it, that is exactly the appropriate thing to do--especially for a kitchen.

You're prepping food in there and who knows where those people have been, and if someone gets sick because someone got their filthy hands on something the kitchen staff would be liable and the person who is actually responsible would get off scot-free.

Unrelated: Is it bad that I can kind of see where Sauron is coming from?

Spoiler

Show

This one, not the other guy.

Like, he's a total edgelord who is constantly ranting about how he is an incarnation of purest evil(He named himself Sauron becuase the bad-guy from the Lord of the Rings was the evilest thing he could think of at that exact moment) but... I mean, if you had the power to turn people into dinosaurs, wouldn't you want to?

[sktarq]

Like, he's a total edgelord who is constantly ranting about how he is an incarnation of purest evil(He named himself Sauron becuase the bad-guy from the Lord of the Rings was the evilest thing he could think of at that exact moment) but... I mean, if you had the power to turn people into dinosaurs, wouldn't you want to?

People-to-Dinos would be the hobby, the cure for cancer would pay for my massive castle-o-(Mt)Doom and pay for the bribes to cover up my crimes. My mooks would also full health and life insurance.

[Lord Raziere]

Like, he's a total edgelord who is constantly ranting about how he is an incarnation of purest evil(He named himself Sauron becuase the bad-guy from the Lord of the Rings was the evilest thing he could think of at that exact moment) but... I mean, if you had the power to turn people into dinosaurs, wouldn't you want to?

I mean.....I don't see why myself? its too inflexible. like sure I could probably turn jerks into dinosaurs, but I'd have trouble figuring out what dinosaur wouldn't be more of a threat than an evil human. while turning my friends or people who want to become dinosaurs into dinos might have the downside of being a death of personality because you'd be changing the structure of the brain as well.

So no, unless you count chickens as dinosaurs which y'know they technically are, in which case I could theoretically have fun turn evil people into harmless chickens and either laughing at people being confused as to why chickens are there or at the predicament of the newly turned into chicken now being trapped in an unfamiliar body having to struggle in an alien body for the rest of their probably short life in despair as their evilness is paid back in a fate worse than death while they are unable to call for help, unable to be happy ever again....

...but then again without some secondary powers I'd probably have to start getting real scheming and stealthy to pull it off consistently without police noticing this weird pattern of disappearances and chickens showing up in their place and somehow tracing it back to me, which would be a lot of work. so realistically speaking such enjoyment would really be nothing more than something similar to a serial killer. so not really something I'd actually be up for, morally or logically speaking. either way its incredibly twisted and likely to backfire. so not really something I'd want to, since uuuh....when you think it through, wouldn't be all that great.

[Rater202]

This specific process is reversible and the people seem to retain their memories and consciousness.

Suaron is working with Stegron in this storyline, another villain who likes turning people into dinosaurs.

Stegron(that's his real name, not an alias) gained his powers by stealing the Connors formula--the experimental serum tat uses the DNA of various reptiles and amphibians to boost the immune system and regenerative abilities of humans as a way of replacing lost limbs, but as a side effect turned doctor Connors into a superhuman strong lizard man who is regularly either completly feral or an embodiment of Connors repressed misanthropy--and doctored it up with additional DNA taken from Dinosaurs from the savage lands.

So, as the Lizard can psychically control reptiles, Stegron can psionically control non-avian dinosaurs.

And that seems to be how they were controlling the people they turned into those triceratopses.