Rater's Ridiculously Rambunctious Random Ranter #229

[Rater202]

I never said that tomato sauce wasn't an acid.

I said that Pinaple is acidic when talking about it's flavor and texture: You can taste the acid in pineapple, which clashes with the smooth creaminess of mozzarella just as much as the sweetness of the pineapple clashes with the spiced, savory sauce.

[Tarmor]

Oh hey, what sort of space marines and what legion/chapter?

With lockdown preventing gaming, I've had more time for other hobbies. Usually I paint fantasy figures, but I've been painting figures from my Space Crusade board game for a while. So the marines are Blood Angels, Imperial Fist and Ultramarines. (A squad of four marines with commander, each). I'm about to start base coats.
A few weeks back I painted the Chaos Marines, and used a paint scheme based on the 'Children of Purgatos'. Rather than muck around trying to get an image on here, here's a link to my blog post at the time:

https://tarmor21.wordpress.com/2020/...space-crusade/

[Peelee]

I never said that tomato sauce wasn't an acid.

I said that Pinaple is acidic when talking about it's flavor and texture: You can taste the acid in pineapple

Acids taste sour (as opposed to bases, which taste bitter). Pineapples do not taste sour. Fresh pineapples contain bromelain, which is corrosive, but this is denatured with heat and cooked pineapple dies not have the sharpness that fresh pineapple does.

I cannot relate to any of your statements about cooked pineapple taste because I have never experienced it as you describe.

[Bartmanhomer]

This whole argument is so tiring.

[Razade]

An Acid and things being acidic aren't the same thing. While Pineapple isn't "sour" (it's certainly tart) it's still acidic which is determined by it's pH. It doesn't matter if Pineapple tastes sour or not. Olive Oil is acidic but it doesn't taste sour. Acidity is caused by other things than acids, such as the phenols in Olive Oil which is what makes it acidic. Pineapple do have acids however (Bromelain is not an acid, it's an enzyme) however which makes it tart. A whole host of them actually. Gallic acid being one but it really is a stunningly long list. Bromelain is also not corrosive. Corrosion is a process that effects metals and Bromelain applied to metals actually makes them more resistant to corrosion. Bromelain denatures proteins by breaking down amino acids. This process has a name, catabolism. The person saying early in the thread about pineapple eating you while you eat it is accurate. Bromelain in effect is digesting your skin.

[Peelee]

Huh. I thought I saw "corrosive" in my very quick-and-dirty preliminary google double-checking, but you're right, it's not (and may be an effective corrosion inhibitor at that!). Though it is acidic/has low pH, but acts alkaline when ingested, which is super cool.

But yeah, regardless, acidic foods don't taste too acidic all that much and it's easy to counteract. Hell, Coke has a stronger acid than HCl or H2SO4, but ain't a person alive that could honestly say it tastes acidic.

H3PO4, if anyone was wondering. ~2.1 pH, but Coke is closer to ~2.5, so straight Coke still has a lower pH than hydrochloric and sulfuric.

[Razade]

It has to do with a lot of factors, along with heat denaturing a lot of the compounds that make things taste sour to us which has already been pointed out. Heat up some vinegar, it's not going to be as sour when it cools. The reason you lose the tannin tastes and elements of wine in cooking is heat. Same goes for pizza sauce and pineapple.

Also, Rater is wrong about "good cooking". It's true that complimentary flavors work together...they're complimentary...good cooking isn't just about pairing a flavor that goes well with another. It's also about contrast. Textural and flavor contrasts in food are important. It's why you pair something sweet like fig or pear with something savory and salty like cured ham.

Salt and pepper are the iconic seasoning duo...but they're contrasting flavors. By Rater's metric you wouldn't use them together.
Oreo cookies are another example people probably wouldn't think of. The creme is sweet, overly sweet even, while the cookie is slightly bitter on its own.
Sweet and sour are contrasting flavors but the combination of lime and chili can be found in a ton of cuisines.
Chocolate covered pretzels are contrasting flavors. The sweet and salty contrast.

Except these are all well known and popular combinations. It's because contrasting flavors balance one another and create different flavor profiles because the things that might make them off putting on their own or too strong on their own are mellowed out by the thing they're paired with while enhancing other qualities. Salt is less salty when you've got pepper along with it and the pepper isn't as peppery. Oreo cookies eaten together are balanced. A pad thai is balanced because the sour of tamarind and lime is met against the chili peppers (also the palm sugar helps).

[LaZodiac]

I just think it's nuts that people are letting LaZodiac and Rater off the hook trying to claim tomato sauce isn't acidic. LaZodiac even called it base.

The pH of Pineapple is between 3 and 4. Which makes it an acid. Since base is anything higher than 7 (7 being neutral)

The pH of canned tomato sauce is less than 3. Canned tomato sauce is more of an acid than the pineapple. Raw tomatoes, if you make the sauce yourself which I'd recommend if you can get the right tomato, is around 4. So the same as a pineapple. Hell, tomatoes even need slightly acidic soil to grow, requiring lower than a 7.5 soil acidity. There is a reason in cooking that you add a little sugar and salt to a tomato sauce and it's to cut the acidity of the sauce. Rosemary, thyme and oregano are also really good flavors for cutting the acidic nature of ingredients. There's a reason they're the generic pizza spices and not just because they're common in Italian cooking.

Also, if Rater wants to avoid people confusing "spicy" for "hot" when he actually means "has spices" the proper cooking term is "spiced" not "spicy."

Pineapples also do have something to do with Hawaii. They have tons of pineapple plantations on the islands. They're not endemic to Hawaii but the fruit has a pretty deep history with the islands. None of it positive and all of it against forum rules.

Yeah that's a mistake on my part, I apologize. I hadn't actually EATEN yet when I posted that, so I wasn't fully thinking.

To reclarify my point- the acid of the pineapple helps with the heavy meat taste for me. Too much meat and it feels very "blegh" but the pineapple helps break it up and helps break it down. I believe I'm correct in saying that various meats like sausage and stuff are more base than acid, but I legitimately forget.

Canned tomato sauce being 3 and Pineapple being 4 means tomato sauce is LESS acidic, but it's the higher number that means more in this case (unless I'm forgetting again because I'm tired).

[enderlord99]

Canned tomato sauce being 3 and Pineapple being 4 means tomato sauce is LESS acidic, but it's the higher number that means more in this case (unless I'm forgetting again because I'm tired).

You're forgetting again because you're tired.

[DataNinja]

Yeesh, y'all're chatterboxes sometimes over the strangest things. I blink, and then suddenly two more pages.

In unrelated news, I'm kinda thinking about wanting Hawaiian Pizza for some strange reason.

In other (actually) unrelated news, I think I'm finally getting the hang of this weird "real-time" GMing thing.

[Razade]

Canned tomato sauce being 3 and Pineapple being 4 means tomato sauce is LESS acidic, but it's the higher number that means more in this case (unless I'm forgetting again because I'm tired).

pH doesn't work that way. You're forgetting because you're tired, being charitable.

Neutral is 7. Anything higher than that is more basic. Anything that's lower than that is acidic. The lower the number, the more acidic it is. I'm not sure why you'd think I'd be wrong about the very thing I'm correcting you on. It is what it is.

[LaZodiac]

pH doesn't work that way. You're forgetting because you're tired, being charitable.

Neutral is 7. Anything higher than that is more basic. Anything that's lower than that is acidic. The lower the number, the more acidic it is. I'm not sure why you'd think I'd be wrong about something when correcting you but it is what it is I suppose.

It's because I forgot how the PH scale worked. You know, since that's not a thing I interact with enough to memorize it. But yeah, I forgot.

[Razade]

You interact with the pH scale literally every day of your life. I get that it's not intuitive, like golf scores, but it's easy to remember when you put it in the perspecitve that is not a 0-10 scale it is a scale with center number and it then goes higher or lower relative to that central number.

[Tarmor]

You interact with the pH scale literally every day of your life. .

I interact with things ON the pH scale every day... but the actual scale itself hasn't been something I've considered much since Chemistry in High School and University, which was decades ago.
I also have a bit of a craving for pineapple now too, but it's that Hawaiian burger that sounds good to me.

[LaZodiac]

I interact with things ON the pH scale every day... but the actual scale itself hasn't been something I've considered much since Chemistry in High School and University, which was decades ago.
I also have a bit of a craving for pineapple now too, but it's that Hawaiian burger that sounds good to me.

The Hawaiian burger is REAL good. Highly encourage you try it out.

[Fyraltari]

Wow, debate between foid prescriptivists and food descriptivists. Odd.
In case my "cuisine police" snippet wasn't clear, sign me up with the people who say there aren't any wrong way to enjoy food (well unless it's unhealthy).

Oh, and:

.

The argument on taxonomy and cladistics was started when Pelee

Peelee*. Nothing personnal.

[Rater202]

Also, Rater is wrong about "good cooking". It's true that complimentary flavors work together...they're complimentary...good cooking isn't just about pairing a flavor that goes well with another. It's also about contrast. Textural and flavor contrasts in food are important. It's why you pair something sweet like fig or pear with something savory and salty like cured ham.

Are you aware of how silly this is?

If the contrast of the flavors tastes or feels good... Then they're complementary flavors.

I'm not arguing against contrast, I'm arguing against clashing. Things that do not go together being shoved together regardless.

So unless you are suggesting we eat steak tartar covered in Tobasco sauce as an ice cream topping paired with a mixture of Amarone and Coca-Cola...

[Razade]

The only way to be is to be a food descriptivist. Because food, like language, evolves.

Are you aware of how silly this is?

No? Unless my culinary instructors were making a joke on me. They might have been.

If the contrast of the flavors tastes or feels good... Then they're complementary flavors.

No....that's not how it works. Two things can contrast and still make something harmonious. Salt and Sweet are considered contrasting flavors in the culinary world.

I'm not arguing against contrast, I'm arguing against clashing. Things that do not go together being shoved together regardless.

Clashing is a personal opinion more than anything.

So unless you are suggesting we eat steak tartar covered in Tobasco sauce as an ice cream topping paired with a mixture of Amarone and Coca-Cola...

I don't know why you wouldn't eat steak tartar with a hot sauce. But this isn't even talking about contrasting flavors. This is just pure hyperbole that has no baring on any sort of conversation. This isn't a dish. This isn't anything someone would naturally make. This is you trying to make as absurd a concoction as you can to try and make the idea of actual contrasting flavors as extreme and silly as possible. This is as close to an equivocation as one can make and it's patently obvious.

[enderlord99]

Are you aware of how silly this is?

If the contrast of the flavors tastes or feels good... Then they're complementary flavors.

That was the point, yes.

I'm not arguing against contrast, I'm arguing against clashing. Things that do not go together being shoved together regardless.

...which is a matter of opinion. The argument "you can't eat those things together because I don't like them together" is really rude.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that most pineapple pizza (due to the excessive contrast) feels like you're eating pizza while eating pineapple, rather than eating pizza-with-pineapple. I find this weird, but not exactly bad; the few exceptions (that is, pineapple pizza that actually tastes coherent) I consider to be either amazing or awful.

[Rater202]

...which is a matter of opinion. The argument "you can't eat those things together because I don't like them together" is really rude.

You can like whatever you want, but a bunch of people liking something doesn't change the fact that it's not good.

I mean, we all lived through that "romantic" series about an Ehebephilic vampire stalker written by a woman who thinks that having superpowers makes you so far above the law that there's nothing wrong with eating people, right? Or the follow-up, when a woman wrote a fanfic of that story then changed all of the names and someone managed to sell it despite it depicting rape and abuse as being okay?

Lots of people liked those books, even though they were objectively bad from artistic, literary, and just a general "do not depict toxic relationships as a good thing, no matter what your excuse is" sense.

Lots of people like Pineapple Pizza. That doesn't mean that the flavor and texture of pineapple don't clash with the traditional ingredients of a pizza enough that a lot of people, myself included, are sickened by it.

[Fyraltari]

You can like whatever you want, but a bunch of people liking something doesn't change the fact that it's not good.

I mean, we all lived through that "romantic" series about an Ehebephilic vampire stalker written by a woman who thinks that having superpowers makes you so far above the law that there's nothing wrong with eating people, right? Or the follow-up, when a woman wrote a fanfic of that story then changed all of the names and someone managed to sell it despite it depicting rape and abuse as being okay?


Lots of people liked those books, even though they were objectively bad from artistic, literary, and just a general "do not depict toxic relationships as a good thing, no matter what your excuse is" sense.

Lots of people like Pineapple Pizza. That doesn't mean that the flavor and texture of pineapple don't clash with the traditional ingredients of a pizza enough that a lot of people, myself included, are sickened by it.

You're playing on two different meanings of the word "good", your arguments against Twilight and Fifty Shades of grey is that they aren't good (as in morally acceptable) despite people finding them good (as in enjoyable). However you are not making that argument for hawaiian pizza, you claim that it is not good (enjoyable) despite people finding it good (enjoyable).

You need to fart a little, and admit that taste is subjective and that what you enjoy is not more valid than what other people enjoy.

EDIT: Also why the hell would anybody care about the traditionnal ingredients of a pizza? The word's oldest recorded usage was in 997, and there certainly wasn't any tomato sauce on it back then.

[Razade]

I just think it's wild that we're now equating pineapple on pizza to people's choice of maybe problematic literature. That's probably a good sign to leave this. I only peek in here every now and then. This is why.

Also, before I head out. It's not parsley. It's basil that goes on a margarita pizza.

[Rater202]

You're playing on two different meanings of the word "good", your arguments against Twilight and Fifty Shades of grey is that they aren't good (as in morally acceptable) despite people finding them good (as in enjoyable). However you are not making that argument for hawaiian pizza, you claim that it is not good (enjoyable) despite people finding it good (enjoyable).

You need to fart a little, and admit that taste is subjective and that what you enjoy is not more valid than what other people enjoy.

I'm sorry. I was trying to avoid certain keywords and comparisons that might offend people, and in doing so diluted my message.

Do note, however, that "moralities" was in no way part of my argument.

I've explained the science of why it doesn't work. People didn't care.

I mean, even the guy who invented Hawaiian pizza only made it for the novelty. He didn't think it would have been good.

Would posting the words of an acknowledged culinary expert sway opinion? BEcuase Gordon Ramsey has explained more than once why Pineapple on a Pizza doesn't work. I'm sure I can find one video that bleeps out the swear words.

EDIT: Also why the hell would anybody care about the traditional ingredients of a pizza? The word's oldest recorded usage was in 997, and there certainly wasn't any tomato sauce on it back then.

When people talk about pizza in a modern context, they're referring to something derived from pizza Marianna or Neapolitan pizza also, which are pizzas with mozzarella cheese and a sauce based on crushed tomatoes seasoned with olive oil, parsley, and garlic. For most people, anything else isn't real pizza.

And pineapple really doesn't go with those ingrediants.

[enderlord99]

I'm sorry. I was trying to avoid certain keywords and comparisons that might offend people, and in doing so diluted my message.

...Yet you still offended people.

I mean, that's fair, since we offended you first by bringing up the subject. Still, though...

[Fyraltari]

I've explained the science of why it doesn't work. People didn't care.

It's because, it's wrong. You cannot prove to people that they don't enjoy something they do, in fact, enjoy. Good or bad is not an objective property of a recipe, it's a matter of taste.

Would posting the words of an acknowledged culinary expert sway opinion? BEcuase Gordon Ramsey has explained more than once why Pineapple on a Pizza doesn't work. I'm sure I can find one video that bleeps out the swear words.

No piling an argument from authority ontop of the appeal to tradition wouldn't help.

When people talk about pizza in a modern context, they're referring to something derived from pizza Marianna or Neapolitan pizza also, which are pizzas with mozzarella cheese and a sauce based on crushed tomatoes seasoned with olive oil, parsley, and garlic. For most people, anything else isn't real pizza.

And that's completely arbitrary. Maybe in 1,000 years, pineapple will be considered an integral ingredient to pizza by most people.

There are no right or wrong way to enjoy food, that's the long and short of it.

And pineapple really doesn't go with those ingrediants.

Say you. The opinion of people who enjoy pineapple on pizza is just as valid as yours. Because this is a purely subjective matter.

[Rater202]

It's because, it's wrong. You cannot prove to people that they don't enjoy something they do, in fact, enjoy. Good or bad is not an objective property of a recipe, it's a matter of taste.

I am not trying to prove to something that they don't enjoy what they enjoy.

Bartmanhomer asked why so many people hate pineapple pizza.

I explained the history of pineapple pizza and the culinary science of why it doesn't work. I've provided annecdotes(the fact that myself and others I know of actually get physically ill from the flavors.)

I have also offered to cite experts.

Taste is not subjective, unless you want to get into the argument that no two people can ever have identical experiences. Wine will always taste like wine. Coffee will always taste like coffee.

What is subjective is whether you enjoy that taste. Pineapple Pizza is clashing flavors. Some people, for reasons I can't begin to comprehend, enjoy that clash despite everything that culinary science tells us.

And other people literally become ill from it.

It's like how some people like things that taste bitter and other people don't. Liking something bitter doesn't make it not bitter.

Someone liking pineapple pizza doesn't make pineapple not clash with tomato sauce.

Honesly, if I can't answer a question without my reasoning being attacked until I get to the point where I have to pick and choose my words to avoid offending someone(and apparently fail) becuase my every other attempt to explain my reasoning has failed miserably than I don't know why I both.

[enderlord99]

The problem is that instead of explaining why "many people don't like pineapple pizza" you explained why "pineapple pizza is objectively bad"

The reasons are the same, but the statements themselves are different.

Anyway, you still haven't defined what "clash" means, at least with any non-cyclical logic.

[Rater202]

Anyway, you still haven't defined what "clash" means, at least with any non-cyclical logic.

At this point, I don't think I have the words to explain it in a way that can make people understand.

[Fyraltari]

The problem is that instead of explaining why "many people don't like pineapple pizza" you explained why "pineapple pizza is objectively bad"

The reasons are the same, but the statements themselves are different.

Yeah, I think that was the original problem.

[Hyoi]

Let's all remember that this discussion began with this question:

Sweet. I don't understand why so many people hate pineapple pizza so much. I never tried it but it sounds very yummy.

Rater responded by expressing the view that conventional culinary wisdom takes of the dish. Everybody gangpiled on Rater for trying to dictate food preferences, so Rater explained the underlying culinary principles that by conventional wisdom indicate against combining those flavors. We all know that many people have unconventional tastes, but it seems unfair to ignore that the culinary principles Rater is talking about are real, and absent specific knowledge about the tastes of the people you are cooking for, following those principles will likely produce better results.

Rater isn't helping matters with their intense tone, but tone is always hard to read on the internet and "extreme passion for rhetorical effect" would probably be a more charitable way to read their posts then "cuisine police".

There is also a touch of hypocrisy in saying "taste is inherently subjective" while simultaneously demanding that Rater provide objective definitions of concepts like "clash" or "acidic taste".