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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Allignment of a professional killer

    I'm trying to describe this character morale with phrases allocating an allignment for each of them.

    - He's a professional, he likes a job well done, he tries to follow his contract strictly to keep his clients satisfied (Legal)
    - He often resolves in trickery to close up with his target, he has not complaints lying (Chaotic)
    - He has not interest in fair battles and he has not an honor code, he just would do anything to take down his target (Neutral)
    - In his private life he is a hedonist (chaotic)
    - He kills without remorse and he's not protective regarding human life (Evil)
    - He doesn't actually enjoy the act of killing and he doesn't like to bring unnecessary pain and torture. (Neutral)
    - By the way, if torture is required by contract, he just does the job (Evil)

    This could easily range from LN to CE, what do you think it should be the right allignment to describe someone like him?

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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    A hired blade that accepts contracts without discrimination is extremely evil, no one gives a **** whether he enjoys it or not.

    I would also not call anyone who lives his life completely selfishly and acts against any sane society's conventions and laws "lawful".

    I would think neutral evil, though I could also see CE. Anything else is absurd, in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    What does he kill for money? Is it monsters? Because, I call those adventurers. If he is hired to hunt monsters, he is probably NG or N at worse. If he is hired to hunt people, he is probably NE.
    Last edited by Elbeyon; 2020-10-11 at 04:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Lawful Evil.

    - He's a professional, he likes a job well done, he tries to follow his contract strictly to keep his clients satisfied (Lawful)
    - He kills without remorse and he's not protective regarding human life (Evil)
    - Willing to torture (Evil)

    That's it, really. Hedonism is unaligned, lack of honor is an absence of good points; nothing else you listed pushes him in any direction, but he's really firmly lodged in Evil.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Result-oriented assassin ready to do anything, with no specific methods, no code except fulfilling his contracts and keeping his clients happy?
    Put my vote down for Neutral Evil.
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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Lawful Evil.

    - He's a professional, he likes a job well done, he tries to follow his contract strictly to keep his clients satisfied (Lawful)
    - He kills without remorse and he's not protective regarding human life (Evil)
    - Willing to torture (Evil)

    That's it, really. Hedonism is unaligned, lack of honor is an absence of good points; nothing else you listed pushes him in any direction, but he's really firmly lodged in Evil.
    Agreed. Hedonism is only chaotic if it affects the other aspects of your life. If his hedonism got in the way of his professionalism then it would be chaotic, otherwise, agreed, unaligned.

    Lying and trickery themselves are also not chaotic, they are simply tools in a toolbox. It's how they're used, and to what end, that determines the alignment.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Agreed. Hedonism is only chaotic if it affects the other aspects of your life. If his hedonism got in the way of his professionalism then it would be chaotic, otherwise, agreed, unaligned.

    Lying and trickery themselves are also not chaotic, they are simply tools in a toolbox. It's how they're used, and to what end, that determines the alignment.

    I can agree with this, so all the relevant traits point toward evil, I could make him worship Norgorber, the paladin in the group will love it :P (gotta buy a wand of undetectable alignment )

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Does he only follow the contract in order to keep his clients satisfied, rather than from any love of rules as such? If so, neutral evil not lawful.

    Is he a team player? A loner or rebel? Neither?

    How does he see his future? Would he ever retire? Why?

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Sounds like a classic neutral evil to me. Compare to demons, devils and yugoloths; he's far more like the mercenary yugoloths than the other two. And someone who has no qualms torturing and killing people for money is definitely evil.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Yeah, definitely very evil. Not enjoying killing might be neutral, but having no problem killing people is about as evil as it gets. As for Lawful/Chaotic, you could argue anything but probably neutral? I don't know, that axis means completely different things depending who you ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    I can agree with this, so all the relevant traits point toward evil, I could make him worship Norgorber, the paladin in the group will love it :P (gotta buy a wand of undetectable alignment )
    Wait, are you a GM or player? If this is an NPC, cool, but if you're playing this character in a good group I'd definitely recommend making sure everyone's okay with it. With this motivation, it would be hard to justify this character joining a group of adventurers, and it's a lot less likely to cause conflict with other players if they know what's going on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronikoce View Post
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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by Drelua View Post
    Wait, are you a GM or player? If this is an NPC, cool, but if you're playing this character in a good group I'd definitely recommend making sure everyone's okay with it. With this motivation, it would be hard to justify this character joining a group of adventurers, and it's a lot less likely to cause conflict with other players if they know what's going on.
    I think the paladin is the outlier this time, there are already a couple of evil characters in the group.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    I think the paladin is the outlier this time, there are already a couple of evil characters in the group.
    Okay, as long as your group knows what you're doing. I did something similar once, my character was just someone that wanted revenge and decided to make friends that could help him get it. It helped that his class got the ability to mimic someone else's alignment at the same level he got enough hit dice to detect as evil. The good news is, Paladins need pretty much every stat but int, so lying to them should be fairly easy if they RP that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronikoce View Post
    If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to hold it for me you wouldn't say they were wielding the candlestick. If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to club an intruder to death you would say they were wielding the candlestick. The act of using the held item for a purpose such as intruder clubbing changes the word that ought to be used.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post

    - He's a professional, he likes a job well done, he tries to follow his contract strictly to keep his clients satisfied (Legal)
    I wouldn't call this lawful, simply pragmatic. keeping your client satisfied is something you do to get a reward. liking a job well done, well, everyone would rather do a good job than a shabby one. and when you're into the killing business, it's just another measure of survival.

    without a strong law/chaos tendency, i'd just slap him as NE
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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Neutral evil

    The good evil axis are moral
    the lawful chaotic axis is political


    Killing people for hire is against the law, but not necessarily an act that would cause an upset to the natural order. Being a hedonist isn't chaotic either, it's not politically aligned, but rather an understanding of what "good" is.
    Hedonism says that pleasure is good, but unless it's wanton masturbation, one would understand doing certain things ultimately lessens the amount of pleasure you receive. If the consequences cause you pain, then it's not good, see?



    The actions are someone who for their own personal gain, is doing bad things.
    Chaotic Evil despises control from structures and will interject their own way into already existing structures, regardless of who they hurt. Lawful evil uses the structures already in place to hurt people.

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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Wait, you're a player?

    I'll reiterate the point other people have made: you NEED to make sure your group and dm are ok with what you're doing (Ooc). If they're unaware, this can be a real campaign killer.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Purely True Neutral. He does what he's paid to do without reqard to anything except his paycheck.
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by lylsyly View Post
    Purely True Neutral. He does what he's paid to do without reqard to anything except his paycheck.
    TN is explicitly meant to represent most people. Not very self sacrificing, not very selfish, not very honest but not very deceptive, etc. Just... People.

    Evil isn't "devoted to the gods/goal of evil". Evil is a lack of humanity, of compassion, of justice. Killing people for money is evil.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Wait, you're a player?

    I'll reiterate the point other people have made: you NEED to make sure your group and dm are ok with what you're doing (Ooc). If they're unaware, this can be a real campaign killer.
    They are perfectly aware, no under-covered plot bombs on my parts, my character will try to hide some behaviours to some party members, maybe, but i think we'll be too much occupied in monster slaying and world threatening perils to discuss about morale issues (this group has been a bit toward action until now), the paladin himself has already said that his character is a believer of dialogue and redemption, so unless i kill innocents right in front of him i think I should be fine.
    The wand to hide my alignment is just for in game interactions, outside the game they'll know i'm evil.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    evil if he kills good innocent people.
    good if he only kills evil people/creatures according to bovd.

    good people would rather die than kill an innocent good person.
    neutral people would kill an innocent good person for survival.
    evil people would kill an innocent good person for something more trivial. like money, or honor, or job.
    Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-10-11 at 08:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    evil if he kills good innocent people.
    good if he only kills evil people/creatures according to bovd.
    BoVD specifically states that "killing evil beings purely for profit" is nonevil but nongood - but it also states that this only applies to "creatures of consummate, irredeemable evil".


    So, a professional killer who only kills evil-aligned chromatic dragons, or fiends, purely for profit - can be Neutral - but never Good.

    And one who kills evil beings for profit when they aren't beings of "consummate, irredeemable evil" - will be committing Murder, and will be Evil themselves.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-10-12 at 12:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    I would say Neutral Evil. Not monstrous or psychotic, but clearly Evil.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    BoVD specifically states that "killing evil beings purely for profit" is nonevil but nongood - but it also states that this only applies to "creatures of consummate, irredeemable evil".


    So, a professional killer who only kills evil-aligned chromatic dragons, or fiends, purely for profit - can be Neutral - but never Good.

    And one who kills evil beings for profit when they aren't beings of "consummate, irredeemable evil" - will be committing Murder, and will be Evil themselves.
    While i may concur that the right alignment is evil, and already made up my mind with this idea, how is that different from a soldier?
    A soldier who kills civilians is certainly evil, but a soldier who fights other soldiers for profit could as well be neutral, according to common sense.
    The difference seems more on the lawful-chaotic side, a soldier kills in a context in which it's socially considered right killing.

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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    While i may concur that the right alignment is evil, and already made up my mind with this idea, how is that different from a soldier?
    A soldier who kills civilians is certainly evil, but a soldier who fights other soldiers for profit could as well be neutral, according to common sense.
    The difference seems more on the lawful-chaotic side, a soldier kills in a context in which it's socially considered right killing.
    I'd say "civilian" and "non civilian" casualties of course matter, but a soldier who kills solely for money isn't a soldier, but a sellsword. I could live with sellswords being faintly evil by definition. An assassin, however, is EVIL.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    I'd say lawful evil. He has no qualms with killing people so long as the money is right, which is clearly evil, and living a life that involves abiding by his contacts and not deviating from predetermined conditions thereof is lawful. Hedonism isn't necessarily chaotic, merely self indulgent, and resorting to trickery isn't necessarily chaotic, just generally considered to be dishonorable.
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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    I don't see how being professional and good at the job means he is lawful. He is just being practical (at least as practical as a serial killer can be)

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    I'd say "civilian" and "non civilian" casualties of course matter, but a soldier who kills solely for money isn't a soldier, but a sellsword. I could live with sellswords being faintly evil by definition. An assassin, however, is EVIL.
    A marine who goes in a mission, kills following their orders, doesn't care about patriotism and doesn't enjoy the act of killing, caring only about their salary.
    I would consider such a guy neutral, i'd even say there are a lot of soldiers like that and i wouldn't say they are inherently evil.
    Last edited by Selion; 2020-10-12 at 08:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    A marine who goes in a mission, kills following their orders, doesn't care about patriotism and doesn't enjoy the act of killing, caring only about their salary.
    I would consider such a guy neutral, i'd even say there are a lot of soldiers like that and i wouldn't say they are inherently evil.
    I don't believe most soldiers would do literally anything to follow orders, and OP's character is just fine with doing that. Staying away from real-world comparison, killing someone without remorse and because you were ordered to, not caring about the cause? Evil. Maybe not "inherently", irredeemably Evil, but the act is Evil, and reading to OP, it's an act that the character regularly commits, because it's his job. According to Hannah Arendt, it's even the archetype of evil: not demonic, but banal, a refusal to make a moral decision and think beyond what you're told.
    What should make it amply clear is also the description : "by the way, if torture is required by contract, he just does the job". Torture under D&D rules is unambiguously and always Evil.

    EDIT: Oh, you're OP, and you were talking about sellswords, not the assassin. My bad. Well, yes, a mercenary may very well be Neutral. It depends on what missions they're ready to accept and perform. There has to be some sort of limit, of code. I maintain that regardless of status as a sellsword or assassin, someone who will stop at nothing to follow orders has the potential to slip into Evil really really fast.
    Last edited by Seto; 2020-10-12 at 08:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    This is why I use a different framework for alignment.

    Everybody knows what "fair" means, and everybody wants to be treated fairly. What changes is who else they think deserves to be treated fairly.

    NE = nobody.
    CE = people stronger than them.
    LE = people who it is profitable to be fair with.
    CG = friends, kin, and members of their group.
    LG = everyone who agrees to be fair.
    NG = everyone.

    On this scale your guy is clearly LE: he treats his clients fairly, and everybody else is just an object. All the other stuff - whether he's hedonistic in his own time or tortures his victims for fun - is just a matter of personal preference. After all, some people run over the NPCs in Grand Theft Auto and some don't; that doesn't make them good or evil, because those aren't real persons. It's just a preference. (Torturing someone is not really morally that different that murdering them for profit - in both cases you're treating them like an object instead of a person.)

    I find this system is more understandable by players and easier to adjudicate for the DM (me). On the other hand it does leave out several alignments (CN and LN), but I find that a feature, not a bug. I don't think human beings can be either of those as described (in my world CN is nature/animals and LN is magic/robots/technology).

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    CG people care about less people than NG people? I don't want to get into an alignment debate, that's a well known bad time, but that makes it sound like NG is more good than other types of good, which is not what the rules say at all. I've used something similar, that if you're good you care about everyone, if you're evil you only care about yourself and people close to you, and if you're N on the G/E axis you might care less about people that aren't near you, or like you, not outright disrespecting life but willing to put your own life above a stranger's.

    Good people care about other people's lives, even strangers, that's pretty much the bare minimum. CG just means you go with what feels right and don't follow a set of rules. CG or LG isn't less good than NG, they're two separate axes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronikoce View Post
    If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to hold it for me you wouldn't say they were wielding the candlestick. If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to club an intruder to death you would say they were wielding the candlestick. The act of using the held item for a purpose such as intruder clubbing changes the word that ought to be used.

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    Default Re: Allignment of a professional killer

    Quote Originally Posted by Drelua View Post
    Good people care about other people's lives, even strangers, that's pretty much the bare minimum. CG just means you go with what feels right and don't follow a set of rules. CG or LG isn't less good than NG, they're two separate axes.
    NG is the most good. LG and CG have to split their focus between law and good or chaos and good. A LG might follow the law even if it means a less good outcome for people. A chaotic good person might rebel against the law even if it means it is the most good for people. Sometimes a LG will pick law over good. Sometimes a CG person will pick chaos over Good. If a CG or LG person always did the most good thing, they would be NG.
    Last edited by Elbeyon; 2020-10-13 at 08:03 PM.

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