Level 1 character vs level 13 character

[heavyfuel]

Any strategy that relies on single use magic items - however effective it may be - is going to get dismissed by the Forsaker on the basis that in an actual game you wouldn't spend your entire wealth to win a single fight.

If you really intend to prove a point (intead of just showing your friend how well strangers on the internet know the intricacies of the game far better that either of you) I strongly encourage items that would make for an actually viable character.

Also, your friend can have access to Ex teleportation with a few feats or a level in Swordsage, which a lot people seem to be ignoring.

[AvatarVecna]

Any strategy that relies on single use magic items - however effective it may be - is going to get dismissed by the Forsaker on the basis that in an actual game you wouldn't spend your entire wealth to win a single fight.

If you really intend to prove a point (intead of just showing your friend how well strangers on the internet know the intricacies of the game far better that either of you) I strongly encourage items that would make for an actually viable character.

Also, your friend can have access to Ex teleportation with a few feats or a level in Swordsage, which a lot people seem to be ignoring.

Add an item of continuous acorn of far travel (6000 gp) involving some planar time shenanigans so that the Shapechange is effectively permanent.

[heavyfuel]

Add an item of continuous acorn of far travel (6000 gp) involving some planar time shenanigans so that the Shapechange is effectively permanent.

Sheneanigans are going to be equally dismissed on the same principle. It's easy to win the fight with shenanigans, but you won't win the argument with them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Add an item of continuous acorn of far travel (6000 gp) involving some planar time shenanigans so that the Shapechange is effectively permanent.

Actually, it doesn't need to be continuous. You just need to plant (or find) the oak tree on a plane that's timeless with regards to magic. Since you're considered to be under the tree's canopy while in possession of the acorn, you're considered to be on that timeless-with-regards-to-magic plane. And since you're holding the acorn, the acorn of far travel spell is also considered to be on said plane. Which means the spell effect is permanent unless dispelled.

Of course, if you really wanna cheat like a mofo...

[SirNibbles]

Kobold Sneak Attack Fighter 1
Stats with Elite Array:
STR 6
DEX 17
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 8

Items:
-Carpet of Flying (20,000 gp)
-Yuan-Ti Poison Fangs Graft (8,000 gp)
-Continuous Amulet of Venomfire, CL 8 (48,000 gp)
-some sort of invisibility item

Feats:
Spit Venom
Deadly Spittle

Flaw:
Noncombatant

+5 to hit touch attack at 30 feet deals 8d6 Acid (+1d6 on a sneak attack) and DC 12 Fort vs 1d6 Con damage.
Within 15 feet, you can just spit in a cone with a 100% chance to deal 8d6.

Yes, it's only 23 damage on average, but if you're Invisible or otherwise undetectable, it doesn't matter- you can just whittle away at the Forsaker (who will eventually roll low enough to fail their Fort save too).

Is this a super optimised build? No. But it definitely works against enemies outside of this single scenario without relying on cheap tricks.

[newguydude1]

Sheneanigans are going to be equally dismissed on the same principle. It's easy to win the fight with shenanigans, but you won't win the argument with them.

that is the reason wealth beats levels. high level spell shenanigans butcher everything. wealth gives access to high level spell shenanigans.

its the main reason artificer is tier 0, higher than wizard. not because he makes vorpal weapons cheaper, but because he gets 9th level spells at level 7 with wealth.

[heavyfuel]

Why are people optimizing to fight something like Fighter 3/Forsaker 10?

If the Forsaker is any good at optimization (which likely isn't the case given how they thing magic isn't stupid strong in 3.5), the character's gonna be something like Swordsage 1 / Forsaker 10 / Swordage +1 with Dark Creature template.

That's still a level 13 character with a Hide modifier of "you fail" against any level 1 character. And they have access to stuff like Scent, teleportation, and AoE that insta-kills any lv 1 character.

Unless you're going to cheese your wealth in order to emulate high level spells, this is a losing battle. And if you do use your wealth to emulate high level spells, you fall into the trap of the player just going "meh, this doesn't work in a real game, so you didn't really prove your point", which is something that will absolutely happen if you try to cheese your victory.

[heavyfuel]

that is the reason wealth beats levels. high level spell shenanigans butcher everything. wealth gives access to high level spell shenanigans.

its the main reason artificer is tier 0, higher than wizard. not because he makes vorpal weapons cheaper, but because he gets 9th level spells at level 7 with wealth.

"Well, no DM would ever allow that in a real game, so it obviously doesn't count." There. That is, verbatim, what OP is going to hear as soon as he pulls out his Shapechange scroll (or whatever). Of course, every one that plays with them is going to agree, and thus OP will lose the debate even though they won the fight.

If you really want to prove OP's point, you have to take the hard route. Taking the easy route is just going to get your victory dismissed

Artificer is Tier 0? The playground disagrees with you.

[newguydude1]

Unless you're going to cheese your wealth in order to emulate high level spells, this is a losing battle. And if you do use your wealth to emulate high level spells, you fall into the trap of the player just going "meh, this doesn't work in a real game, so you didn't really prove your point", which is something that will absolutely happen if you try to cheese your victory.

that sounds like someone saying anything that lets a level 1 character beat a level 13 character doesnt work in a real game.

of course it doesnt. in a real game a 1st level character wont have 110,000gp. someone with 110,000gp wont be a 1st level character and his item loadout would be completely different.

---

this is as simple and straightforward as it gets. umd a wand of divine insight and a wand of guidance of the avatar and umd a scroll of gate. the end. vorpal balor or solar with butcher the forsaker and youll have loads of wealth to spare.

Any strategy that relies on single use magic items - however effective it may be - is going to get dismissed by the Forsaker on the basis that in an actual game you wouldn't spend your entire wealth to win a single fight.

everything i suggested earlier is either a permanent magic weapon or a wand that could also be a permanent wand.

[heavyfuel]

that sounds like someone saying anything that lets a level 1 character beat a level 13 character doesnt work in a real game.

of course it doesnt. in a real game a 1st level character wont have 110,000gp. someone with 110,000gp wont be a 1st level character and his item loadout would be completely different.

In a real game it is perfectly possible for there to be a NPC that inherited their wealth and has 110k gp despite being level 1.

[newguydude1]

In a real game it is perfectly possible for there to be a NPC that inherited their wealth and has 110k gp despite being level 1.

so what is a shenanigan?

1st level character umding high level spells is perfectly normal character concept.
1st level character buying permanent magic items replicating powerful spells is perfectly normal character concept.
1st level character buying robots with that wealth is a perfectly normal character concept. i said 2 stone golems spamming dusts of choking and sneezing. is that a shenanigan?
flying weapons might be a shenanigan cause its so cheap, but golems and cursed dusts are in core and their construction/acquisition is normal.

1st level character going perma flying invisible and bypassing move silently to pelt the target from afar is also a perfectly normal character concept.

[AvatarVecna]

Spoiler: Some nonsense fun

Show

Here's some items that could be considered cheating for how they come to be, even if it's relatively straightforward what they do and how they function. All items have their market price halved due to being cursed to only work for somebody with the right race/alignment/skill combo - this is actual market price, not crafting price, so it's useful for our purposes.

Human Fighter 1 (Hit-And-Run)
Attribute assignments: 17/18/17/11/18/10
Feats: Toughness x4, Troll-Blooded
Flaws: Meager Fortitude, Shaky
Gold Spend: 109000 gp

4250: Arms/Bracers Of True Armor +7 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)

• 1000: AC +1 (alchemical)
• 750: AC +1 (circumstance)
• 500: AC +1 (deflection)
• 500: AC +1 (luck)
• 500: AC +1 (morale)
• 500: AC +1 (profane)
• 500: AC +1 (sacred)

3500: Body/Gi Of True Strength +6 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)

• 1000: Strength +1 (alchemical)
• 750: Strength +1 (circumstance)
• 250: Strength +1 (enhancement)
• 500: Strength +1 (morale)
• 500: Strength +1 (profane)
• 500: Strength +1 (sacred)

3500: Face/Glasses Of True Wisdom +6 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)

• 1000: Wisdom +1 (alchemical)
• 750: Wisdom +1 (circumstance)
• 250: Wisdom +1 (enhancement)
• 500: Wisdom +1 (morale)
• 500: Wisdom +1 (profane)
• 500: Wisdom +1 (sacred)

4000: Feet/Boots Of Continuous "Haste" (as cast by a Trapsmith)

3500: Hands/Gloves Of True Dexterity +6 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)

• 1000: Dexterity +1 (alchemical)
• 750: Dexterity +1 (circumstance)
• 250: Dexterity +1 (enhancement)
• 500: Dexterity +1 (morale)
• 500: Dexterity +1 (profane)
• 500: Dexterity +1 (sacred)

4000: Head/Circlet Of Continuous "Lesser Vigor"

7200: Ring/Ring of At-Will Command Word "Greater Mirror Image" (CL 2, as cast by a weird Sublime Chord build)

12500: Ring/Ring Of Evasion

48000: Shoulders/Cloak Of Continuous "Starmantle" (CL 4, as cast by a weird Sublime Chord build)

5000: Torso/Vest Of True Protection +9 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)

• 1000: Saves +1 (alchemical)
• 750: Saves +1 (circumstance)
• 500: Saves +1 (competence)
• 500: Saves +1 (insight)
• 500: Saves +1 (luck)
• 500: Saves +1 (morale)
• 500: Saves +1 (profane)
• 250: Saves +1 (resistance)
• 500: Saves +1 (sacred)

3500: Throat/Amulet Of True Health +6 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)

• 1000: Constitution +1 (alchemical)
• 750: Constitution +1 (circumstance)
• 250: Constitution +1 (enhancement)
• 500: Constitution +1 (morale)
• 500: Constitution +1 (profane)
• 500: Constitution +1 (sacred)

6500: Waist/Monk's Belt

3550: Adamantine Greatsword +1 Of True Strike

• 1500: Adamantine
• 50: Greatsword
• 1000: Attack/Damage +1 (enhancement)
• 1000: At-Will Use-Activated "True Strike"

Init +13, AC 32, 28 HP, Fort +14, Ref +17, Will +16, Regen 1, Fast Healing 1. 1/8 chance an attack targets you, 1/20 chance a hit damages you.

Full Attack: Greatsword +29/+29, 2d6+10 (19-20/x2)

It's all BS shenanigans tho so idk how seriously that should be considered.

[heavyfuel]

so what is a shenanigan?

This is going to depend entirely on OP's game-mates and their usual optimization level when playing 3.5, so this question is impossible to answer without extra input from OP.

WBL-mancy is pretty common in the forums, but it's definitely not something (widely) available in most games.

If you're just going to cheese WBL, you might as well buy a Candle of Invocation and bring Pun-Pun to the fight.

[Vaern]

Don't forget to start combat holding onto an arrow with the one enchantment that boosts your initiative

[Quertus]

This is going to depend entirely on OP's game-mates and their usual optimization level when playing 3.5, so this question is impossible to answer without extra input from OP.

WBL-mancy is pretty common in the forums, but it's definitely not something (widely) available in most games.

If you're just going to cheese WBL, you might as well buy a Candle of Invocation and bring Pun-Pun to the fight.

I'm confused - how is "cheese WBL" not the entire name of this game?

Don't forget to start combat holding onto an arrow with the one enchantment that boosts your initiative

Do you mean Eager, or Warning? Yeah, I kinda "forgot" those when I was trying to boost initiative earlier. So, that's... IIRC, +7 initiative for 18k (fair) or 360 gp (cheesy), if they're both on the same held weapon.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A +1 warning/eager/morphing/sizing shuriken morphed into a poison ring (Dragon Compendium) is a great way to wield it without having it be particularly bothersome. It costs only slightly more than 1/50 the price of normal +1 warning/eager weapon, and it can have additional weapon and ring enhancements added. There are plenty of very nice passive weapon abilities you can add to such an item.

[awa]

In my opinion if you need the internet hive mind to win this fight your argument wasn’t very strong to begin with.
I mean unless he is using the internet hive-mind to build his character too all you will do is show him that the game is full of broken combos not that his argument is wrong.

[newguydude1]

In my opinion if you need the internet hive mind to win this fight your argument wasn’t very strong to begin with.
I mean unless he is using the internet hive-mind to build his character too all you will do is show him that the game is full of broken combos not that his argument is wrong.

he is wrong.

high level spells > everything
wealth gives high level spells to 1st level characters
therefore wealth > levels.

this is how you win the argument. you do all the things listed in this thread with eternal wands of animate weapon, etc. etc. and after he says bs or broken again and again and again and again and after the 20th thing he says that magic item is hax, then he'll realize this hax is d&d 3.5. and accept wealth is better than character levels.

[Batcathat]

In my opinion if you need the internet hive mind to win this fight your argument wasn’t very strong to begin with.
I mean unless he is using the internet hive-mind to build his character too all you will do is show him that the game is full of broken combos not that his argument is wrong.

It would be kinda interesting to see everyone who's contributed in the thread to put the same effort into the other guy's build. I still wouldn't bet on no-wealth-guy winning but it might be an interesting thought exercise for people with more system mastery than myself.

[AvatarVecna]

It would be kinda interesting to see everyone who's contributed in the thread to put the same effort into the other guy's build. I still wouldn't bet on no-wealth-guy winning but it might be an interesting thought exercise for people with more system mastery than myself.

It's a little less interesting on the other side of things. Not that fun weird crap couldn't be done, but part of what makes WBLmancy so extra is that there's a feasible way to buy basically anything. Feats, spells, skills, extra attacks, buildings, people, all kinds of nonsense. There's a bit less room to go hogwild on the other side of things. Like...

...okay, so lvl 13, Forsaker 10. That's three levels we can play around with. To enter Forsaker at lvl 4, we need to already have 3 feats, none of which are fighter bonus feats. That means either Human or Flaws (or both). If we want VoP online ASAP to get the most exalted feats, we're talking both. That's Human with 2 flaws, in order to have Sacred Vow/Vow Of Poverty/Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will by lvl 3, to enter Forsaker at lvl 4. And we can't buy a trip to the Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will (although I guess we could get thrown in and try to escape?).

So with that all locked into place, here's the stuff we can choose:

• The three starting levels, and any choices built into that class
• The HD feats at lvls 6/9/12
• Skills
• The Exalted feats at lvls 1/2/4/6/8/10/12

Exalted feats are (mostly) nothing to really write home about. There's very few gamechangers among them, the most well-known is probably Touch Of Golden Ice that attaches a not!poison to your natural weapons.

The levels can't be casting, or they're largely wasted. This doesn't necessarily mean being cut off from everything - psion and similar aren't "casters" in the same way wizard is, after all. Although that gets into how OP's table hands magic-psionics transparency, and for that matter whether they feel psion would be "cheating" for the purposes of this experiment. I don't really think so, but then it's not my thought experiment. Maneuvers are almost certainly far more acceptable, though. I'm not really well-versed in ToB stuff or psionics too well, so other people would have to speak to which one was more useful for this kind of thing. Maneuvers is probably more fitting to the idea behind the challenge, while psion is probably superior mechanically. And while I'm not an expert on this either, I do have an alternative suggestion: maybe Truenamer?

Truenamer 3 with Truenaming 16 ranks, skill focus, and two truenaming feats might be better able to spam truenamer abilities? idk, I've never really been interested in Truenamer either, I just know that "not having a big enough skill bonus" is frequently a problem, and this setup would allow you to have an abnormally high skill bonus for your amount of casting. Of course I'm also not sure if Truenaming is close enough to traditional casting that Forsaker blocks it, so....yeah. >.>

If we're going with maneuvers, probably the path here is Unarmed Swordsage? Wis to AC, access to most schools, x6 skill points at first level...Unarmed Swordsage 3, with 3 bonus feats to assign that aren't Exalted, could probably do some neat stuff. And since it's Unarmed Swordsage, we could pick up Touch Of Golden Ice (among others).

[AvatarVecna]

I mean also there's the cheeky answer: Leadership+Improved Cohort.

I can't know this for 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure that a Druid 12 cohort can probably stomp the lvl 1 WBLmancer, whether the druid has wealth or VoP.

[heavyfuel]

I'm confused - how is "cheese WBL" not the entire name of this game?

It's not. At least, it shouldn't be.

OP wants to prove that money is better than class levels. You can cheese either, but any cheese will be dismissed by OP's game mates and he will have proven nothing to them except that he has the ability to go online and beg strangers for help beating his friend in a game.

In my opinion if you need the internet hive mind to win this fight your argument wasn’t very strong to begin with.
I mean unless he is using the internet hive-mind to build his character too all you will do is show him that the game is full of broken combos not that his argument is wrong.

Couldn't agree more.

It would be kinda interesting to see everyone who's contributed in the thread to put the same effort into the other guy's build. I still wouldn't bet on no-wealth-guy winning but it might be an interesting thought exercise for people with more system mastery than myself.

I kinda tried... I think my Swordsage suggestion has a decent chance of beating anything that doesn't rely on single-use items of 9th level spells.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I mean also there's the cheeky answer: Leadership+Improved Cohort.

I can't know this for 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure that a Druid 12 cohort can probably stomp the lvl 1 WBLmancer, whether the druid has wealth or VoP.

A druid 12 cohort gets NPC WBL to the tune of 27 000 gp. Not a huge amount, but there's no question that the WBLmancer gets to fly out of the arena at some speed, in all directions at once.


OK, forsaker optimization.
Problem: A simple resilient sphere blocks 100% of what even a swordsage can do, and costs only 10 500 gp (that's for a staff, and no, it's not partially charged).
Solution: Shadow Hand teleports bypass force barriers.
Problem: If the sphere is small enough--and it will be 7' in diameter at minimum CL, 5' if it's an artificer-made staff--there's no space to teleport to.
Solution: Be two size categories smaller than whatever the WBLmancer is. Alternative: be incorporeal.
Implication: It would be good for the WBLmancer to be very small indeed, preferably Fine, inside a teeny tiny sphere--at this point, you just buy a 6" riverine sphere and a necklace of adaptation.
Question: Can we get any sort of dispel and cancellation ability onto the Forsaker?

[heavyfuel]

A druid 12 cohort gets NPC WBL to the tune of 27 000 gp. Not a huge amount, but there's no question that the WBLmancer gets to fly out of the arena at some speed, in all directions at once.


OK, forsaker optimization.
Problem: A simple resilient sphere blocks 100% of what even a swordsage can do, and costs only 10 500 gp (that's for a staff, and no, it's not partially charged).
Solution: Shadow Hand teleports bypass force barriers.
Problem: If the sphere is small enough--and it will be 7' in diameter at minimum CL, 5' if it's an artificer-made staff--there's no space to teleport to.
Solution: Be two size categories smaller than whatever the WBLmancer is. Alternative: be incorporeal.
Implication: It would be good for the WBLmancer to be very small indeed, preferably Fine, inside a teeny tiny sphere--at this point, you just buy a 6" riverine sphere and a necklace of adaptation.
Question: Can we get any sort of dispel and cancellation ability onto the Forsaker?

Hiding behind an indestructible sphere for a few hour (50 charges, 7~9 min per charge) isn't exactly a good strategy. The swordsage can just wait for you to run out of charges. If you grab multiple staves, you'll just making the wait a bit longer.

If you're fine inside a riverine sphere the swordsage can just grab the sphere and drop you. Nothing about riverine stopping falling damage.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Waaaait a minute. If you're going up against an exalted character, wouldn't that just mean that you could play a Good character and he couldn't touch you without losing his exalted status? Just give yourself a really good reason why he needs to be defeated, make yourself immune to nonlethal damage, and you should be fine. After all, any attempt to kill you should backfire on him spectacularly.

So find a way to make him lose his exalted status, his vows, and his forsaker abilities all three, then laugh as you potshot him.

[AvatarVecna]

In my opinion if you need the internet hive mind to win this fight your argument wasn’t very strong to begin with.
I mean unless he is using the internet hive-mind to build his character too all you will do is show him that the game is full of broken combos not that his argument is wrong.

Couldn't agree more.

"I'm personally not good enough at this game to beat X with Y, therefore Y isn't actually better than X"

The conclusion that Y isn't better than X isn't necessarily wrong, but the personal capabilities of the person making the argument isn't reflective of the system. I can't go to a Smash tournament, pick Fox/Falco, get destroyed because I'm **** at Smash, and thus conclude that Fox/Falco are trash-tier characters, because the actual correct conclusion there is that I'm a trash-tier player who shouldn't have been taking part in competitive play. At best, it means that I'm the wrong person to prove how good Fox/Falco actually are/aren't.

Admittedly, I'm also kinda unclear on what standards would be acceptable for you, tho. Limited-use items get dismissed because that's just spending to win a single fight, so it's not indicative of how useful wealth is. Unlimited-use items get dismissed because that's cheesing your wealth. So spell items are entirely off the table. Cheesing flat-bonus style items is off the table for similar "that's cheating" reasons. You say that you're dismissing these things because the person building the Forsaker would, and yeah they probably would, because they don't realize what the system is capable of when you're not placing arbitrary restrictions on it.

this is how you win the argument. you do all the things listed in this thread with eternal wands of animate weapon, etc. etc. and after he says bs or broken again and again and again and again and after the 20th thing he says that magic item is hax, then he'll realize this hax is d&d 3.5. and accept wealth is better than character levels.

This, essentially. How much you get out of money is only a matter of how hard you're willing to work for it, and quite frankly very very little of it could be considered fair. That's why, whenever one of those "is fighter actually worthwhile" threads pops up, there's people crawling out of the woodwork to insist that WBL on its own is basically enough that fighter can remain relevant at higher-op games. I don't necessarily agree with that perspective, but I can see why they think that because money is just so good. You can buy better stats, or better AC, or better saves, or beter skills, or better weapons. You can buy feats and spells. You can buy buildings. You can buy people. You can buy methods of generating money that give more than you put into it in the first place. You can use crafting to get even more bang for your buck, and a half-dozen methods of tweaking the effects to reduce the price even further.

And the vast majority of it is unfair to somebody locked out of that system by an in-universe moral code, because even if VoP gave you ten times what it currently gives you in Big Numbers and floating immunities, you can always use equal-level money to cheat your way into even bigger numbers and even more immunities. It's just a matter of how hard you're willing to "cheat within the rules". Any argument of "money beats basically everything" is going to come down showing the many ways you can cheat with money instead of just taking VoP, because VoP gives more value than equal-level money at most levels (not a ton more, but still). Any money method that could be considered "playing fair" would be insufficient to get a lvl 1 character capable of taking on a lvl 13 character.

Waaaait a minute. If you're going up against an exalted character, wouldn't that just mean that you could play a Good character and he couldn't touch you without losing his exalted status? Just give yourself a really good reason why he needs to be defeated, make yourself immune to nonlethal damage, and you should be fine. After all, any attempt to kill you should backfire on him spectacularly.

So find a way to make him lose his exalted status, his vows, and his forsaker abilities all three, then laugh as you potshot him.

While also an argument worth having with somebody who thinks VoP is good, "VoP is trash because it's so poorly written that you can fall for basically anything" is a whole separate argument from "VoP is trash because the stuff it gives you is less useful than having money that can be spent on anything".

[heavyfuel]

"I'm personally not good enough at this game to beat X with Y, therefore Y isn't actually better than X"

Fair point, but there's still the fact that OP has access to the combined knowledge of a dozen optimizers while his friend probably doesn't even know what a swordsage is.

Of course that a bunch of people that have spent the last 20 years learning the ins and outs of a system pooling their knowledge is going to beat almost anyone in a PvP scenario.

OP doesn't have the upper hand in the combat because he has gold. He has the upper hand because he knows this forum.

[AnimeTheCat]

Honestly, a 1 v 1 fight between a vow of poverty character and a level 1 character isn't even a good way, let alone the best way, to showcase the superiority of wealth in the game.

The most appropriate way is to take one character at level 1, and the other at whatever arbitrary level, and give the level 1 character the appropriate wealth, while giving the other character the vows and stuff. Make sure everything is actually written down. I would say to strike your point home harder, spend less than your wealth and just donate all the rest of the money to a library for the blind.

Next, have a third person run you through challenges from various different modules. You don't get any prep time, it's all just between you, the challenge, and what's on your paper. Don't bother putting all of the challenges together in some coherent format, just make them a gauntlet. Have some combat encounters, some non-combat, some traps, some environmental, etc. Take things from published modules and just have this third person pick them.

That should give you a good platform to showcase the versatility, power, and capabilities that items bring to the table, compared to someone who is literally prevented from using them. This is the better, and in my opinion best, metric to measure this sort of competition by, especially since it's not pitting players against each other in a combative way. it's a challenge gauntlet, which pits them against each other in a competitive way.

[heavyfuel]

Honestly, a 1 v 1 fight between a vow of poverty character and a level 1 character isn't even a good way, let alone the best way, to showcase the superiority of wealth in the game.

The most appropriate way is to take one character at level 1, and the other at whatever arbitrary level, and give the level 1 character the appropriate wealth, while giving the other character the vows and stuff. Make sure everything is actually written down. I would say to strike your point home harder, spend less than your wealth and just donate all the rest of the money to a library for the blind.

Next, have a third person run you through challenges from various different modules. You don't get any prep time, it's all just between you, the challenge, and what's on your paper. Don't bother putting all of the challenges together in some coherent format, just make them a gauntlet. Have some combat encounters, some non-combat, some traps, some environmental, etc. Take things from published modules and just have this third person pick them.

That should give you a good platform to showcase the versatility, power, and capabilities that items bring to the table, compared to someone who is literally prevented from using them. This is the better, and in my opinion best, metric to measure this sort of competition by, especially since it's not pitting players against each other in a combative way. it's a challenge gauntlet, which pits them against each other in a competitive way.

Damn good write up (although the PC that is burning all their wealth on single-use items of high level spells still probably wins this, despite being crippled as a character afterwards)

[newguydude1]

OP doesn't have the upper hand in the combat because he has gold. He has the upper hand because he knows this forum.

the wealth guy would still win vs a 13th level vop wizard. so this is incorrect. if the 13th level player came to this forum to ask us to help prove he is right, all of us would be saying the exact same thing. he is wrong, and then show a list of wealth shenanigans that will destroy whatever a vop character can do.

if the contest was a 13th level character vs a vop 13th level character, seeing how they do against a balor or something, thats a more accurate measurement of how terrible vop is because no dr, no way of handling greater teleport, no way of handling blasphemy, etc. etc.

but the contest is 1 vs 13. so the op wants us to tell him how to ****ing blow his friend to pieces and make him cry out bs.

Damn good write up (although the PC that is burning all their wealth on single-use items of high level spells still probably wins this, despite being crippled as a character afterwards)

not single use items. eternal wands or just normal wands are multiuse items.