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2020-10-18, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2020-10-18, 01:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Gender
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
Given that, oftentimes, the party is saving the lives of uncountable people against civilization-destroying horrors, donating that 180,000 gp to them will help a lot more people than donating the equivalent of Bill Gates's yearly income to the nearby orphanage. Though I do suppose those orphans will need to gain levels somehow, and giving little Timmy that +5 vorpal greatsword will undoubtedly help him clear out the local rat infestation.
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-10-18 at 01:32 AM.
⚣ Tanuki in the Playground. ⚣
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2020-10-18, 04:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2020
- Location
- Japan
- Gender
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
Well, drat.
Yeah. It's been a while since I read those books. . .
If the DM/party doesn't want to/doesn't know how to circumvent those extreme restrictions somehow (affiliate all of the party with a temple that works with the poor, and then donate the VoP char's part after reasonable expenses; use that share of the treasure/resources as a pooled petty cash box, until they get back to the temple, then refund the appropriate amount; idk) I can see how that VoP player is going to get kicked out of every party that's not composed entirely of paladins or real life ppl of the cloth or something.
But maybe that's the whole point of the BoED. Create kinda the polar opposite to groups who play evil adventuring parties? In which case, maybe the designers thought that creating any sort of overpowered mechanics-wise incentive to pick them would render the point moot.
Again, if they're inconveniencing other party members and putting them at risk, I'd say they are taking it too far. Though I am sure that will also make for some interesting roleplaying situations (since apparently the Atonement spell can't fix these things?).
"Do I use the magic item the monster just dropped to save all of my friends and lose all my powers irrevocably? Or do I risk letting them die?"
One of these choices results in a very useless party member, the other one in a very unpopular one; unless house-ruled somehow.Last edited by Shirow; 2020-10-18 at 04:57 AM.
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2020-10-18, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
It's a fun ability, isn't it?
I houserule it to allow the player to use no more than 20% of WBL. It's a large reduction in WBL that doesn't totally preclude the acquisition of some critical items (e.g. flight). It's still not a brilliant deal, but it helps. A variant would be to allow only Ancestral Relic, which would be 50% of WBL, but spent on a single item, so you pay a lot of x1.5 cost modifiers for combined item and unusual slot modifiers. You'd end up with characters using only a +1 soulfire (as bracers of armour) phoenix (as phoenix cloak) vestments of warding (as cowl of warding), or something, for ~368 750 gp.Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2020-10-18 at 08:51 AM.
Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2020-10-18, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- In the Heart of Europe
- Gender
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
If VoP offered access to Flight, did not require Exalted Good (ergo say its available for all fully lawful beings) and its actual restrictions were worded more clearly and a wee bit less restrictive, it would stillb e worse than having full wealth, but be a valid alternative if one wants all ones power come from one self (ergo be "unstealable", yeah, you, rogue, you! Its all your fault^^!).
Which is why we use a 3parted VoP in our games.
The first Vow reduces one to use no more than 4 magic items and "necessary" one use items (ergo when someone would die otherwise, or at least it would be very likely, li,ke if going into a dragons lair unbuffed). They have to sdonate 33% of their Wealth.
This version only gives the Stat Boosts.
The Second reduces one to at most one set of Armor and one weapon OR 2 other magic items, and removes Singe Usage Items except Healing Potions and similar from being usable FOR THE CHARACTER. They have to donate 66% of their Wealth.
This Version gives additional AC Bonuses, half the Bonus Feats, and Flight from level 7 onwards (boosted every 3 Lervels to max of 150ft/Good at 20).
And finally the third one: prohibits all regular magical items, allows one ancestral Artifact, otherwise same equipment restrictions as VoP. You must donate 95% of your Money.
Adds the missing bonuses, and gains the VoP Character either 2 domains and one slot (one alignment Domain, one other) if not a full caster, or grants a permanent +2 CL Bonus to 2 Schools if Full caster.
And all of them have CLEAR definitions of what you can and cannot do without breaking your vow (ergo no debate if opening a Door breaks it^^).
Worked pretty well the alst few times. Not overpowered, but fully palyable.A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”
01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110
Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”
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2020-10-20, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2019
- Location
- Bear mountains! (Alps)
- Gender
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
I'm very curious about the result too.
Anyway, my 2 cent : no need really for any fancy plan, just post a bounty for the death of the forsaker. for 110k I'd expect to forsaker to be death within the hour from some random competent adventurers group that outlevels the forsaker and will enjoy the easy money :)
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2020-10-22, 04:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
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2020-10-22, 06:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2018
- Location
- Seattle, WA
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
VoP only requires you to donate the "majority" of your wealth. Let's call it 60%-70%. If you give the rest to your party, each one is still getting a sizeable +10% WBL. That's probably enough to earn some goodwill. Though the vow could definitely use some rules patches, allowing for (e.g.) using other people's healing potions on dying people.
Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2020-10-22 at 06:32 AM.
Originally Posted by Darths & DroidsOptimization Trophies
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2020-10-22, 07:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2019
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
On the 13th level character the drow and dwarf domains can let a cleric of any race into the forsaker class after first level. Also grants turning which should be usable with devotion feats So r.ace for these types of things can maybe help. Dragonborn Raptoran for good senses and flight. 2 levels of swordsage on the end.
You could also just not take VOP until 12th level and get grafts. You loose the exalted feats but they weren't great? The horrible illithid/fiendish experiments that the character endured made it retrain into a forsaker. Could help the poor 13 level character out.
YMMV
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2020-10-23, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
I'm with heavyfuel on this one. The stuff that can be pulled to make beating one of the weakest level 13 characters possible with a level 1 are all far enough afield to be dismissed as unreasonable, cheesy nonsense.
OP straight-up overstated the magnitude of his point. He could have slammed the point home with a 6th level character vs the 13th level, VoP forsaker. I don't think there's anything the lvl 13 could do that couldn't be -reasonably- countered in that case; nothing crazy, just being straight-up a better, more well-rounded character of half the other guy's level, using the wealth he's turned down. That's a setup that would shine even harder as competing characters in a same game test than in a 1v1 duel too.
Who decided X 3/ forsaker 10, anyway? That's just -really- bad even -with- wealth and the WBL-fu to make the most of it.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2020-10-25, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
Run the challenge yet?
Convinced them to "Same Game Test" the challenge?
Got a build yet?
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2020-11-15, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- Victoria BC
- Gender
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
Sorry for the wait everyone. Due to a few personal problems I don't want to explain we have not been able to run the test as we had planned.
What we did do however was get a look at each other's sheets (I had 3 prepared) and
Talk theoretically about what would happen if we ran it. He would basically need to win initiative and start within striking range of me to have a chance of winning its what we came up with.
I would have won with flight and magic missile. I would have won with spammed monsters as a buffer. I would have won with greater invisibility and anything.
My point has been made to him. He agrees that anything I built specifically to kill him would have, and that many things will be more effective than him.
Sorry it took so long, I was hoping for a more eventful outcome. If we eventually run this I will update for sure.
His build was Monk2/forsaker10/swordsage1 just for sake of the argument. I can try to upload a picture of his character sheet next time I see him.
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2020-11-15, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- Victoria BC
- Gender
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
And to reply to Kelb, it was my friends idea to play a forsaker character to play in an upcoming level 13campaign. The whole argument came up because I was trying to dissuade him from doing that.
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2020-11-15, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2016
- Location
- No Longer The Frostfell
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
If the game that you were playing in would have been fine for the Forsaker (i.e. the DM said that the character was fine), then this was really a nonsensical exercise.
Granted, the player may not have known that the choice was suboptimal, but who cares. The point is to have fun and if the group had fun, then mission accomplished. You don't have to play top-tier optimal characters to have fun.
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2020-11-15, 10:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
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2020-11-16, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2016
- Location
- No Longer The Frostfell
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
Isn't the saying, or a saying at least, something to the effect of, "balance to the table not the system"?
Regardless, just make sure you're not ruining someone else's fun unless their fun directly ruins yours, at which point discuss it and come to a middle ground that lets you both have fun. If no middle ground can be had on the topic, find new ground that you can agree on and forget the old ground.
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2020-11-16, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
It has nothing to do with "optimal". It has to do with "living up to expectations". If the player wants a powerful anti-magic juggernaut, Forsaker does not do that, even at lower optimization levels. If the player expects and looks forward to something Forsaker does not do, and you know that, it's worth sharing your insight. I imagine that CMagnum knew what their fellow player was expecting, and knew that it wouldn't work out with Forsaker levels.
I mean, the books are absolutely horrible at telling you what works and what doesn't (even to the point of misrepresenting class features, sometimes). The Forsaker class description, for example, says: "By depending upon his own resources alone, the forsaker becomes stronger, tougher, smarter, and more nimble than any of his companions". It's wrong, but anyone reading up on Forsaker could think "oh boy, this is awesome, and look, the book says it's powerful, too". It's easy to get disappointed after that.Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2020-11-16, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
Forsaker by itself is a tough row to hoe but it -can- be done. Same for VoP. It was the particular combination that Forsaker and VoP that struck me as a ridiculous idea.
Losing access to magic items is a big deal you've got to use other resources to make up for it; either spend your wealth other ways or use class and feat options. Wealth is off the table for a VoP character and forsaker 10 leaves no room for class features even if forsaker 1 wouldn't forbid them anyway. Any forsaker cuts a lot of more powerful feat options too. I'd go so far as to say it might actually dip below even the pretty shockingly minimal expectations of WotC for capability.
I'm getting ready to play a forsaker in the nearish future and I'm perfectly comfortable with a VoP character with a whole host of builds but BOTH?I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2020-11-16, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2016
- Location
- No Longer The Frostfell
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
Except none of that is what the OP listed. Here's the first sentence of the thread,
So I was having an argument with a friend about vow of poverty and how much money impacts the game.
Vow of Poverty can work at even most tables, I would figure. For the most part, it's not a "weak" feat, especially when taken on a spellcaster or with a character that can innately cover its own weaknesses. It is, however, a sub-optimal feat because it doesn't match the flexibility of raw wealth. I would suggest, however, that characters are not intended to simply have raw wealth and are intended to acquire wealth via magic items or other loot from dungeons, encounters, etc. so in that context, VoP may be better, because you know you'll get deflection, natural armor, ability score, resistance, etc increases at regular intervals. That simply isn't guaranteed to be the case for a "vanilla" character. It's assumed, but not guaranteed.
As for expectation management, the only reason that something won't work as the player expects it is if the DM is doing so intentionally. If the DM is following the rules for CR and is creating creatures with class levels using same-similar methods that the PCs used (elite array or same value point-buy), a Forsaker is going to do just fine. People like to throw a Shadow around as over CR, but it's really not. It's a CR 3 creature, and pretty much any party of level 3 PCs can handle it. By level 3, the fighter has a magic weapon. By level 3, the rogue has a collection of useable magic items they've collected via loot or purchased. By level 3, level 1 spell slots are less of a precious resource. It's challenging for some party compositions, but it's not the party slayer that everyone claims it to be.
I am not familiar with Forsaker, so I can't speak to it specifically, but I would be surprised if it was as useless as everyone claims it is when you put it in a party with 3 other characters and send the party up against an appropriate level encounter.
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2020-11-16, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
Re: Level 1 character vs level 13 character
And here is the OP's follow-up:
It has everything to do with Forsaker. Yes, VoP has its part, of course, but crucially we were discussing magic items all through the thread.
That's just... so wrong. You're basically saying that anything is balanced if the DM is following the CR rules, and any imbalance/underperformance is the DM's fault, which is both inaccurate (the CR rules aren't precise, and some classes are just that weak, and sometimes player expectations really don't match the class' abilities) and completely unfair to the DM (who can't be blamed for bad class design or player expectations, and who may well be balancing to the rest of the party, with the Forsaker falling behind). It's shockingly naive to think everything will just be fine and dandy if you follow the rules and don't complain.
Perhaps you should read the actual class, then.Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.