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  1. - Top - End - #481
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    IG has little enough High AP with Ignores Cover that 2+ in cover is stupid hard to get through, not to mention a single Vexilia craps on their piles of BS4 models. Add to that even the heaviest weapons bouncing off 3++ and I dont see what Guard can currently do against Custodes. Used to be you could ally in heavier hitting stuff like a Castellan or bank on the point cost differences, but thats not so true these days.

    Back to the rant though, the game at its core isn't bad. But at its core is the crying leftovers of 8th, bastardized into this ITC-lite shell for people who whined without realizing that listening to their whines would make the game suck. Boy Im sure all those Crusade campaigns being played right now make it all worth it though.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    But we 'waited and saw' on Crusade and Pariah Nexus, the Space Marines and Necrons Codex is out. We see the template for Crusade, in actuality. No more potential, now. Actual.
    We know what Crusade is now. It's the best thing ever, right?
    ...RIGHT!?



    But there are people playing games. Maybe not in massive tournaments. But they are playing in their homes. They are having 'Gatherings of up to 5 people in a private residence', etc. I mentioned earlier about a 'tournament' in my meta where a guy has 10 people over and they play a 'tournament' in his farm shed. People are absolutely playing games. Outside of 'postitive Codex review pre-order buy now week'; 'Real' people get their hands on the Codex and give their thoughts.

    I've only ever bought the ETB 3-pack of Reivers for Kill Team.
    I have never, in my life, put a unit of Reivers on the board in a game of real 40K.
    They were the worst unit in the Codex in 8th Ed., and I'm pretty sure they're the worst unit in 9th Ed., too...Though if you call me on that I wouldn't be able to tell you what is the worst unit in the Codex, if not Reivers, off the top of my head. Rules bloat means that there are lots of good units in the Space Marine book, and there are lots of bad units, too.

    How do I know that Reivers are bad if I've never used them?
    How could I possibly know!? That's not possible!

    What we have, is the 'playtest crowd'. People who can't read good, who can't play games, deny what's happening because they haven't done it themselves, yet. Lots of these kinds of people are in the UK and the US and make up the largest markets, who both have rolling lockdowns. There are massive sections on the internet, who may or may not agree that the game is bad. But, they can't come out and positively say so one way or the other, because who knows? Maybe they'll have fun, despite the badness?
    ('A Fun Game' and 'A Good Game' are not the same thing, but a lot of people will say Fun and Good are the same thing, but then also refuse to accept that Winning Is Fun.)

    The game is neither good nor bad 'until they play it for themselves'. But they want the game to be good, despite not being able to play it.

    (I don't need to drink bleach 'for myself' to agree that it's probably a bad idea to do so, but here we are.)



    Part of the problem is that they don't, though.
    Have you actually played in a Crusade league? We still haven't been able to play games, not on a league level anyways, here where I live.


    It is much more limited. I've only really played one person since last March and that's it. So we haven't been able to explore what Crusade is like or anything along those lines. I know other places like Australia have been able to play more, but is is quite different here.

    As for Imperial Guard, they can spam Heavy Weapon teams and various tanks. They aren't lacking for options when it comes to heavy weapons, that's for sure.
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  3. - Top - End - #483
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    I haven't been able to play at all. I'm going to exclusively play Crusade with buddies. Any sort of league that I've attempted to run or play in has been garbage, so I'm not chancing anything with strangers this time.

  4. - Top - End - #484
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    As for Imperial Guard, they can spam Heavy Weapon teams and various tanks. They aren't lacking for options when it comes to heavy weapons, that's for sure.
    HWTs have BS4, in a world with Obscuring and Dense that means BS5 to be able to see at all, and with a Vexilia thats a 6+ to hit. On top of those sucky odds, Custodes with a 2+ in cover save on 3s vs anything but lascannons, and on 4s vs lascannons on the odd chance they get hit, then wounded.

    Tanks likewise have 4+ because HQ slots are now less common, so commanders arent so ubiquitous. One bracket later they become useless, and if they get tagged they cant shoot into melee because blast.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    HWTs have BS4, in a world with Obscuring and Dense that means BS5 to be able to see at all, and with a Vexilia thats a 6+ to hit. On top of those sucky odds, Custodes with a 2+ in cover save on 3s vs anything but lascannons, and on 4s vs lascannons on the odd chance they get hit, then wounded.

    Tanks likewise have 4+ because HQ slots are now less common, so commanders arent so ubiquitous. One bracket later they become useless, and if they get tagged they cant shoot into melee because blast.
    Penalties don't stack. At worst, it's a 5+ to hit. And with a strat, you can give a HWT +1 to hit and wound.

    Basilisks and the like are really nice since they ignore all LoS effects, and are AP -3. Similarly Manticores, but those are more expensive. I actually think Basilisks are better than Leman Russes right now cause of the nearly 30 point gap at minimum. I'm not sure how good fully loaded Leman Russes are, but that's an option too. But I think that's worse than just taking the Heavy Weapon Teams and Basilisks.

    Yes, the Vexilia is a problem, but you're Imperium. Bring Assassins. Or if you insist on playing pure Guard, spam Ratlings. They aren't good, but they are cheap. And with the new rules on how penalties to hit work, you can move up, shoot, and scurry back out of LoS and still be hitting on a 4+.

    Tagging is a problem, but it always was. If you're playing Guard, you need a way to prevent it unless you are up against Tau.

    Don't get me wrong, it's a tough match for Guard, but they've got the tools they need to win.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Penalties don't stack. At worst, it's a 5+ to hit. And with a strat, you can give a HWT +1 to hit and wound.
    So you go first. Run around and try to land xd6 shots on 5s like it matters, then try to wound on 4s at best, and what little sticks gets saved on 3s. All to get what, 1 model?

    Then on their turn you're banking on T3 models with no inv and a 5+ save to stand against Custodes firepower. Sure thing.

    Basilisks and the like are really nice since they ignore all LoS effects
    No, they still get screwed by Dense

    , and are AP -3. Similarly Manticores, but those are more expensive
    So it goes back to 4+, or 3+ for the ones with shields. On a BS4 platform so thats again on 5s with a random number of shots to begin with. Meanwhile a BS2 Ares or one of the FW tanks or a dread can blow it up next turn.

    Yes, the Vexilia is a problem, but you're Imperium. Bring Assassins
    Vindicares ignore invulnerables... but are shooting at 1+ save models. The melee ones aren't even worth mentioning. What psychic powers is the Culexus protecting you from?

    Don't get me wrong, it's a tough match for Guard, but they've got the tools they need to win.
    In so far as it is possible due to dice existing sure. Its not a reasonable expectation if your opponent isnt a potato though, and this sort of whisful magical land thinking is what keeps people from realizing the issues with their faction

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    So you go first. Run around and try to land xd6 shots on 5s like it matters, then try to wound on 4s at best, and what little sticks gets saved on 3s. All to get what, 1 model?

    Then on their turn you're banking on T3 models with no inv and a 5+ save to stand against Custodes firepower. Sure thing.



    No, they still get screwed by Dense



    So it goes back to 4+, or 3+ for the ones with shields. On a BS4 platform so thats again on 5s with a random number of shots to begin with. Meanwhile a BS2 Ares or one of the FW tanks or a dread can blow it up next turn.



    Vindicares ignore invulnerables... but are shooting at 1+ save models. The melee ones aren't even worth mentioning. What psychic powers is the Culexus protecting you from?



    In so far as it is possible due to dice existing sure. Its not a reasonable expectation if your opponent isnt a potato though, and this sort of whisful magical land thinking is what keeps people from realizing the issues with their faction
    Why 4s to wound? Do Custodes have an aura of -1 to wound I'm unaware of? I know they've got a Transhuman ability, but you just switch targets when they pop that. And it depends on the faction. Either 5+ rerolling 1s, or rerolling everything with an order, or you do Skilled Gunners so it's XD6, rerolling. With Basilisks that's 2D6, take the highest, reroll the lowest. You should average something like 5 shots with that combo.

    The Guardsmen are chaff. They are there to perform actions, hold objectives, and screen out charges. They can die all they want, they don't matter besides that.

    For that matter, how are your hypothetical Custodes always in cover? The Custodes are a lot shorter range, and will need to move up if they actually want to do damage. Regardless, yeah, a 4+ isn't that great of a save, keep hammering them and picking them off. And if they are in Cover, then they don't get Dense. Which also, if you are unable to draw a line to hit without crossing Dense no matter what target you're choosing, than you have too much terrain on the table.


    Can't see the Basilisks, they are behind Obstructing, where they will sit all game because they don't need to move. Or you can go full hog wild on the things and run 9 of them. That's only 1125 points so still plenty of room for a bunch of Guardsmen, Yarrik to give the Basilisks reroll 1s, twenty Ratlings because why not (there's lots of reasons why not), a Vindicare, and still have 150 points left over.


    I'd probably go with Vindicares, yeah. Which also ignore Cover btw, so the Custodes would get a 5+ save only against them. But I used the general term, cause if you are running an assassin, you are likely keeping it general and using a strat to swap which assassin you need per game. Actually, I can't remember. If there any reason you can't just run 3 Vindicares if you wanted? I don't even think that would be a bad choice. Fill up your elites with Vindicares and a Culexus to mess with their CP, and pop D3 mortals on someone later.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Have you actually played in a Crusade league? We still haven't been able to play games, not on a league level anyways, here where I live.
    It lasted a month. It was more a case of 'New Edition, New Army', than that we wanted to try out Crusade. I attempted Deathwatch - of course.
    Beyond the Veil didn't add anything great.
    The 'campaign' was broken before it started.

    As for Imperial Guard, they can spam Heavy Weapon teams and various tanks. They aren't lacking for options when it comes to heavy weapons, that's for sure.
    Heavy Weapons Teams...Maybe.

    Tanks? No.
    More than 11 Wounds, no Invulnerable, no ignore Wounds.
    Vertus Praetors pick up Bring it Down, and introduce all the Leman Russes to Salvo Missiles.
    Thanks for playing.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It lasted a month. It was more a case of 'New Edition, New Army', than that we wanted to try out Crusade. I attempted Deathwatch - of course.
    Beyond the Veil didn't add anything great.
    The 'campaign' was broken before it started.



    Heavy Weapons Teams...Maybe.

    Tanks? No.
    More than 11 Wounds, no Invulnerable, no ignore Wounds.
    Vertus Praetors pick up Bring it Down, and introduce all the Leman Russes to Salvo Missiles.
    Thanks for playing.
    How so? What made it so broken right from the get go?


    I'd have to play more games to see, but I get the feeling Guard is one of those armies that do better if you just accept that Bring it Down will give up a ton of points and just load up on as many tanks as you want. Though I really really want to try Astropaths doing Psychic Ritual and being guarded by Ogryn Bodyguards. And that's who denies things cover. But they've got to get within 18 inches of their target, but an Astropath along plasma veterans would be a nice anti-Custodes unit.

    Mind you, I feel like the army that really just slams Guard into the ground is Harlequins. Super fast, strong melee with tons of attacks, plus lots of melta and haywire weapons? And that's before you get into basically everything having a -1 to hit and having a 4++.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Why 4s to wound? Do Custodes have an aura of -1 to wound I'm unaware of? I know they've got a Transhuman ability, but you just switch targets when they pop that. And it depends on the faction. Either 5+ rerolling 1s, or rerolling everything with an order, or you do Skilled Gunners so it's XD6, rerolling. With Basilisks that's 2D6, take the highest, reroll the lowest. You should average something like 5 shots with that combo.
    Yeah, transhuman. Low model count even on their big ass bases means the available targets aren't plentiful enough for picking and choosing, of course considering your oponent isn't potato and deploys using their brain.

    The Guardsmen are chaff. They are there to perform actions, hold objectives, and screen out charges. They can die all they want, they don't matter besides that.
    HWTs also have chaff stats and they are the one thing that can actually wound Custodes with a prayer of bringing them down.

    For that matter, how are your hypothetical Custodes always in cover?
    Because by the time they leave cover the hypothetical weapon teams suffer critical existence failure. Alpha Strike is the only strike that matters.

    The Custodes are a lot shorter range, and will need to move up if they actually want to do damage.
    Plenty of Custodes weapons are rapid fire or assault, since they are aiming at poor save, T3 models they dont depends on heavy weapons as much as IG does so moving isnt problematic. Also BS2. Also, Dreads and Flying Tanks and Flying Bikes.

    Regardless, yeah, a 4+ isn't that great of a save, keep hammering them and picking them off. And if they are in Cover, then they don't get Dense. Which also, if you are unable to draw a line to hit without crossing Dense no matter what target you're choosing, than you have too much terrain on the table.
    But you will always slam into the vexilia aura so between both there is a high chance the Basilisks are hitting on 5s.


    Can't see the Basilisks, they are behind Obstructing, where they will sit all game because they don't need to move.
    Do remember Custodes have the same 'within 1d6+3' deepstrike that Callidus assasins have. Also, flying Jetbikes. Also, Basilisks cant shoot into melee because of Blast.

    Or you can go full hog wild on the things and run 9 of them. That's only 1125 points so still plenty of room for a bunch of Guardsmen, Yarrik to give the Basilisks reroll 1s, twenty Ratlings because why not (there's lots of reasons why not), a Vindicare, and still have 150 points left over.
    Other than free secondary VPs, 9 basilisks and chaff means you auto-lose on primaries.

    I'd probably go with Vindicares, yeah. Which also ignore Cover btw, so the Custodes would get a 5+ save only against them. But I used the general term, cause if you are running an assassin, you are likely keeping it general and using a strat to swap which assassin you need per game. Actually, I can't remember. If there any reason you can't just run 3 Vindicares if you wanted? I don't even think that would be a bad choice. Fill up your elites with Vindicares and a Culexus to mess with their CP, and pop D3 mortals on someone later
    .

    The strat covers 1 assassin, but its not as general as it was, got changed. Regardless, both of you can do it and seeing an eversor slam into guardsman is much funnier than seeing him try to do the same against Custodes

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    How so? What made it so broken right from the get go?
    The fact that it's 40K without Points?
    It's still the same game!

    The Core Functionality of the game is busted:
    First Turn is best turn,
    Terrain still doesn't matter, except when it does,
    Blast and unit coherency rules still exist
    Providing XP/buffs to good units makes better units, providing buffs to bad units, makes mediocre units.

    Nothing changes!
    The problem with 40K, is the rulebook. I don't know how I can make that any more clear.
    Nothing GW does, no expansion that doesn't alter how the game is played, will ever change anything.

    Only Errata and Chapter Approved changes anything; "This rule is ****, we changed it.", "This is broken, so we added a new rule."
    Unfortunately, apparently GW only does Errata after sales die down. So that's cool.

    The only difference between Crusade and any other normal functioning army, is that you, as an individual, have slightly more investment into your army because they're Your Dudes. However, I'm me. I couldn't give a **** about your Crusade army, because it isn't My Crusade Army. Maybe, maybe you have a creative person in your meta who can write up a page of storyline after each of their games...Maybe...Which can keep their investment in other players' armies because they still remember what's going on. But that's if you're lucky...And it's only one guy who manages to maintain investment.

    I understand how this is supposed to work; You and all your friends get together and create a storyline and a few memes. The beer flows smoothly and the pretzels are crunchy without being too salty. Outside of that, if everyone isn't invested, it falls apart just like every other campaign you've played where everything falls apart because people lose investment.

    "My army is brave. So my unit of Intercessors can't fail Morale! This is my narrative of my brave, stalwart Space Marines. Defenders of Humanity, indeed."
    "This is my unit of Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors, they can stay in Devastator Doctrine all game, every game, because their Captain told them not to be dumb and let them be autonomous and make their own decisions. Delegation is a true sign of leadership."

    Same unit. Same XP table. Both players forge a narrative...One narrative is bad.

    The only way Crusade works, is if you force people to roll their upgrades, rather than pick-and-choose their XP upgrades. Otherwise players have no reason to not pick the best upgrade every time.

    Mind you, I feel like the army that really just slams Guard into the ground is Harlequins.
    Guard are at the bottom tables.
    Their Vehicles are not durable enough, their Infantry are not durable enough. Everything they are about, is currently out of the meta. Makes sense. Because if a design goal of 9th is to remove Guard from the top tables, then job's a good'un.

    They can pick up a few Secondary Objectives easily enough. But they give away extremely easy Kill Points, and their impotent durability means that they can't survive through their opponent's turn to score Primary Objectives Tiebreaker Points.


    Thought Experiment:

    Start Collecting! Militarum Tempestus "One of the best boxes in 8th Ed."
    3 - Tempestor Prime

    3 - MT Scions (x5)

    3 - MT Command Squad (x4; *Two Special Weapons available of each kind only*)
    2 - Commissar

    6 - Taurox Prime

    Total: 17 Power

    'One Box of Custodes'
    7 - Shield-Captain

    11 - Custodian Guard (x4)

    Total: 18 Power. Storm Shields are free, of course. Wouldn't mind changing one of the Guard to a Vexillus, for -1 to hit ('cause Banners are free, 'cause Power). But a Vexillus is +6 Power Rating.
    ...Still, it'd only be 5 models all out of the same box.

    Point is, Custodes in 9th are what Grey Knights were in 5th. They are exactly what the meta calls for.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Yeah, transhuman. Low model count even on their big ass bases means the available targets aren't plentiful enough for picking and choosing, of course considering your oponent isn't potato and deploys using their brain.



    HWTs also have chaff stats and they are the one thing that can actually wound Custodes with a prayer of bringing them down.



    Because by the time they leave cover the hypothetical weapon teams suffer critical existence failure. Alpha Strike is the only strike that matters.



    Plenty of Custodes weapons are rapid fire or assault, since they are aiming at poor save, T3 models they dont depends on heavy weapons as much as IG does so moving isnt problematic. Also BS2. Also, Dreads and Flying Tanks and Flying Bikes.



    But you will always slam into the vexilia aura so between both there is a high chance the Basilisks are hitting on 5s.




    Do remember Custodes have the same 'within 1d6+3' deepstrike that Callidus assasins have. Also, flying Jetbikes. Also, Basilisks cant shoot into melee because of Blast.



    Other than free secondary VPs, 9 basilisks and chaff means you auto-lose on primaries.

    .

    The strat covers 1 assassin, but its not as general as it was, got changed. Regardless, both of you can do it and seeing an eversor slam into guardsman is much funnier than seeing him try to do the same against Custodes
    Yeah, talking about it, I'd say Basilisks are a much better choice than HWT. Perhaps not the silly idea of taking 9 of them, but I could certainly see 6 + 1 Manitcore. They also can Alpha Strike freely, while Custodes would struggle with getting range on most things.

    Since we're now getting into specifics, I decided to look at an actual list to see how much anti-tank Custodes actually bring. The list I used was the one found in this Goonhammer article. And going by that, it's reasonable for 6 Basilisks, +1 Manticore to actually wipe out all of the shooting anti-tank turn 1, even with the -1 to hit. Though the Transhuman would mess with that a fair bit to be fair.

    And going second would be really bad, I feel like that Custodes list would only reliably kill two tanks back (it takes about 3D6 to reliably kill a tank, and getting at least one failed hit/wound is reasonable among the 6 shots, even with rerolls), and would lose the -1 to hit in order to do so.

    Holding Objectives is the hard part, for sure. Yeah, you've got some 90 Guardsmen to do so, but it is very much a game of hoping you have more bodies than they have bullets. Which is actually pretty much the case. Put 20 Guardsmen on an objective, and it'll likely hold against Custodes shooting at least. They only have 2 shots per model after all, and only if they are within 12 inches. Melee is a different game, but it is very much a game of lasting long enough to allow your artillery to kill them.

    The 1D6+3 deep strike just slams into guardsmen. And I'd want them to take Eversors. Guardsmen can actually kill those with their Lasguns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The fact that it's 40K without Points?
    It's still the same game!

    The Core Functionality of the game is busted:
    First Turn is best turn,
    Terrain still doesn't matter, except when it does,
    Blast and unit coherency rules still exist
    Providing XP/buffs to good units makes better units, providing buffs to bad units, makes mediocre units.

    Nothing changes!
    The problem with 40K, is the rulebook. I don't know how I can make that any more clear.
    Nothing GW does, no expansion that doesn't alter how the game is played, will ever change anything.

    Only Errata and Chapter Approved changes anything; "This rule is ****, we changed it.", "This is broken, so we added a new rule."
    Unfortunately, apparently GW only does Errata after sales die down. So that's cool.

    The only difference between Crusade and any other normal functioning army, is that you, as an individual, have slightly more investment into your army because they're Your Dudes. However, I'm me. I couldn't give a **** about your Crusade army, because it isn't My Crusade Army. Maybe, maybe you have a creative person in your meta who can write up a page of storyline after each of their games...Maybe...Which can keep their investment in other players' armies because they still remember what's going on. But that's if you're lucky...And it's only one guy who manages to maintain investment.

    I understand how this is supposed to work; You and all your friends get together and create a storyline and a few memes. The beer flows smoothly and the pretzels are crunchy without being too salty. Outside of that, if everyone isn't invested, it falls apart just like every other campaign you've played where everything falls apart because people lose investment.

    "My army is brave. So my unit of Intercessors can't fail Morale! This is my narrative of my brave, stalwart Space Marines. Defenders of Humanity, indeed."
    "This is my unit of Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors, they can stay in Devastator Doctrine all game, every game, because their Captain told them not to be dumb and let them be autonomous and make their own decisions. Delegation is a true sign of leadership."

    Same unit. Same XP table. Both players forge a narrative...One narrative is bad.

    The only way Crusade works, is if you force people to roll their upgrades, rather than pick-and-choose their XP upgrades. Otherwise players have no reason to not pick the best upgrade every time.



    Guard are at the bottom tables.
    Their Vehicles are not durable enough, their Infantry are not durable enough. Everything they are about, is currently out of the meta. Makes sense. Because if a design goal of 9th is to remove Guard from the top tables, then job's a good'un.

    They can pick up a few Secondary Objectives easily enough. But they give away extremely easy Kill Points, and their impotent durability means that they can't survive through their opponent's turn to score Primary Objectives Tiebreaker Points.


    Thought Experiment:


    Point is, Custodes in 9th are what Grey Knights were in 5th. They are exactly what the meta calls for.
    Besides it's without points, yes. I've always been fully planning on converting it from Power to Points anyways.

    So it does sound like it needs an organizer in order to actually work. Also fine, because we need one of those for a league anyways. I suppose mandating that people roll for level ups is very much an honor system, but I'm confident the players in my meta wouldn't abuse that.

    And the missions pretty much just play the same then? I've played a few Crusade missions and found them to be sometimes very weird in their scoring.


    I agree that Guard are low tier, and it is much much harder to make a competitive Guard list than it is a Custodes list. But that's why I'm interested in doing so. Mind you, I'm just writing lists geared to fight Custodes, and I acknowledge that Custodes could gear up a lot harder against Imperal Guard than the Guard can against them. An actual all-comers list to bring to a tournament is a different kettle of fish. Though I suspect Basilisks and Manticores are just one of the best options right now. That, and just putting 100 Guardsmen on the board. That still leaves you with about 500 points to play with too. I'm thinking a bunch of assassins, but I'm not 100% on that one.


    Gotta admit though, this conversation is starting to depress me. It's hammering in how long it is until I can actually play a game again. All these calculations and thoughts aren't going to matter, cause at this rate Guard or Custodes are going to get a new Codex before I can actually play in a tournament.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Yeah, talking about it, I'd say Basilisks are a much better choice than HWT. Perhaps not the silly idea of taking 9 of them, but I could certainly see 6 + 1 Manitcore. They also can Alpha Strike freely, while Custodes would struggle with getting range on most things.
    Most people don't have what it takes to win.
    Most people aren't willing to do what it takes to win.
    6 Basilisks is right up there.

    As I said...If you're a Custodes player, and you buy literally nothing but Custodian Guard and Dawneagle Jetbikes, you're good.
    "I like Custodes. They're cheap(ish; in currency) and expensive (in points). I can get to 2000 Points quickly and start playing games with my friends by buying the same two boxes over and over and over again. I've even got Shield-Captains and Vexillas out of the same boxes!"
    Ooops. My army is accidentally good and my friends wont play with me...They've also spent two-three(-four?) times as much money as I have on this game. What did I do wrong?

    My friend can't play with me unless he explicitly buys six Basilisks just to deal with me.

    And the missions pretty much just play the same then? I've played a few Crusade missions and found them to be sometimes very weird in their scoring.
    Once again, each almost all Missions score at the start of your turn. So durable units are required to last through your opponent's turn if you want to score Points. The counter-meta is that you need to alpha strike hard-as-nails to bypass that durability to prevent your opponent from scoring. So, the game is built around alpha striking your opponent. Armies that can survive an alpha strike, do better. Nothing has changed.

    Secondary Objectives Agendas:
    Agendas, mechanically, are almost identical to Secondary Objectives. But they don't award VPs, which means they don't actually help you win the game. In Crusade, the Mission Objective is the Primary Objective. That's what wins the game. Great. Good Job. You based the game around Objectives and board control. There are no Secondary Objectives. The way to win the game is to leave your DZ. So far, so good.

    How can we **** this up?

    Agendas award XP.
    XP gives a unit bonuses.
    The best bonuses are those ones tied to durability and killpower, because those are what wins games.
    Therefore, strong units that rack XP quickly and easily (e.g. Devastators) get stronger, faster, allowing them to kill off weaker units.

    Out of Action:
    Devastating Blows and Battle Scars:
    If one of your units gets destroyed during a game, there's a chance that they get ruined. The least-bad effect, is that they lose D6 XP, and don't gain any XP from the game you just played.

    Crusade strongly encourages you to not have bad units that get destroyed.
    Conversely, you are strongly encouraged to take strong units that blast the **** out of your opponents units - especially the good ones.

    We're back to the standard game loop: Alpha strike hard-as-nails and try and survive Alpha Strikes.

    We also see a very, very disturbing trend, and probably why Crusade campaigns fizzle out:

    Winners win. Losers lose.

    Once losers realise that they have no incentive to keep playing, why keep playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Besides it's without points, yes. I've always been fully planning on converting it from Power to Points anyways.
    Unfortunately, it's like Kill Team with its Roster system. The system has to be based around Power Rating, or the 'Roster System' can't work.
    If the Roster system can't work, you can't tailor to your opponent.
    If you can't tailor to your opponent; Winners win, losers lose.

    If you are using the Roster system...Pay to win, I guess.
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    How to Play Crusade
    Learn to Like Bookkeeping

    Order of Battle. Your Order of Battle starts at 50 PR, and increases as you play (and win) games. If you don't play (and win) games, you wont get more stuff.
    Supply Limit. Get extra units.
    Requisition Points. Get extra stuff on your units.

    Abilities that a unit selects before the battle (e.g; Warlord Traits, Psychic Powers, Relics, etc.) are permanent. Don't choose wrong. It's not like the game forces you to pick out the best stuff. But, if you pick out bad stuff, you're stuck with it forever. So, don't stress out or anything...I said don't stress.

    Experience.
    - A unit gains +1 XP every time you take a unit in a game.
    - A unit gains +1 XP every time it destroys an enemy unit...Take good units that can do this. Units get more XP for destroying models. Not for holding Objectives. Think about it.
    - Each Battle just give any unit you want +3 XP. They don't have to have done anything. Just give it to 'em.

    Choose a number of Agendas according to the Mission size. You can't choose an Agenda from the same category twice.
    Agenda Tallies are reset to 0 after a Battle.


    Purge the Enemy
    Assassins. A unit gains +1 XP for each two CHARACTERS it destroys.

    Priority Target. A unit gains +1 XP for each two MONSTERS or VEHICLES it destroys.

    Titan Hunter. A unit gains +4 XP for each TITANIC unit it destroys. (+1 XP for destroying a unit, +1 XP for being part of the game = +6. Taking Titans is like giving your opponents free level ups. So be cool and play Titans. Your opponents will love you for it.)

    King Slayer. A unit gains +3 XP for destroying a Warlord. Not a great Agenda, since only one unit can score it per game. But you know you can score it every game.

    No Mercy, No Respite
    First Strike. A unit gains +1 XP for each unit it destroys in the first Round of a Battle. Very low-earning Agenda. Do not use.

    Cull the Hordes. A unit gains +1 XP each time it destroys six or more models in a single phase. Thanks for playing.

    Reaper. The unit in your army that destroys the most enemy units in the game, gains +2 XP. Garbage. Only one unit can achieve it per game. But, that unit can potentially gain 6+ XP for destroying that many units +2, so that's a nice level up in a single game.

    Battlefield Supremacy.
    Sentinel. At the start of your first turn, pick a unit, pick an Objective. At the end of the game, if that unit, is holding that Objective, the unit gains +4 XP. Your opponent just unloads everything they can into that unit, right? Not only do you not get the XP, but your unit potentially gains negative XP for going OoA. And, once again, only one unit gets this XP per game.

    Breakthrough. At the end of the game, choose three units wholly within 6" of your opponent's board edge. They each gain +2 XP.

    Survivor. At the start of your first turn, pick a unit. That unit gains +4 XP if it's alive at the end of the game. Or, it only gains +2 XP if it's under half-strength. Like Sentinel (above), but your unit isn't forced into being on a particular spot on the board.

    Shadow Operations
    Secure the Area. An INFANTRY unit gains +1 XP each time it performs an Action [End of Move phase to End of Turn] in the centre of the board.

    Search for Archeotech. An INFANTRY unit gains +3 XP if performs an Action [End of Move phase to End of Turn] in your opponent's DZ, twice during the game.

    Deploy Vox-Relays. Choose an INFANTRY unit after Deployment but before the first turn. That unit can perform an Action [End of Move phase to End of Turn] on an Objective. The unit gains +2 XP for each Vox'd Objective at the end of the game. An enemy unit destroys a Vox when it controls an Objective.

    Recover Mission Archives. One INFANTRY, BIKER or CAVALRY unit can perform an Action [End of your Move phase to Start of Your Next Turn] on an Objective Marker per turn; The same Objective Marker can't be searched twice in a game. At the end of the game, roll a D6; If the result is equal to or less than the number of times you performed this Action, or, if you performed this Action on every Objective in the Mission, one unit of your choice that participated in the Actions, gains +6 XP.
    **** yeah. I did the Action four times! Rolls a '5'. ...Oh cool I get nothing.

    Warpcraft
    Witch Hunter. +1 XP for destroying a PSYKER. Gain +3 XP instead if the Psyker was a CHARACTER. You should play Grey Knights and give all your friends free XP.

    Lord of the Warp. The unit in your army that manifests the most Powers, Denies the Witch, or performs Psychic Actions (cumulative), gains +2 XP.

    Scry Battle Plans. Psychic Action (WC4). +5 XP if you perform the Action within 18" of an enemy CHARACTER every two times.


    Out of Action.
    If a unit is destroyed, at the end of the game, roll a 1. That unit eats ****. Choose one:
    - Lose D6 XP, and don't gain any XP from participating the game you just played.
    - Or, the unit becomes bad. Just delete it off your Order of Battle, and recycle the unit. Don't know why you would choose this. But some metas actually force it. And then wonder why nobody wants to play anymore when half their units are garbage.

    So:
    Take units that are really good. They'll earn XP the fastest. Remember, you get +1 XP just for destroying an enemy unit. So a good unit might very well have +6 XP before the end of the first game. Before you even factor in Objectives. Remember to hand out your +3 XP wisely. The better your units become, the better they are. Start strong; Finish strong - as they say. Sometimes, a unit might get too good. That is, their upgrades increase their Power Rating, and now you're over your Supply Limit. Simple. Delete the unit off of your Order of Battle and start again...After all, if it starts out as a strong unit, there shouldn't be any problems 'resetting' it, because it will quickly get good again...Probably after a single game.

    Take units that don't die. A unit that doesn't die, is less likely to lose XP and gain Battle Scars and become next-to-worthless.

    Q. If my army is ****, and has few Crusade Points and my opponent's is really good and has a lot of Crusade Points...Will extra CPs actually help?
    A. Depends how far ahead of you they are. But doubtful. As always, Stratagems make good units, better. If your units are bad, being able to play extra Stratagems during the game is unlikely to help.

    TL;DR. Take strong, durable units. If you play 40K, nothing has changed. The meta is the same. But also now way worse.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    How so? What made it so broken right from the get go?
    Remember this is supposed to be 500 points:

    https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...60/unknown.png

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Crusade has been great, I'm playing in a league with some friends that has gone for about two months now.
    Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Remember this is supposed to be 500 points
    It's also not real models. Not only is abusing a known exploit of Summoning not in the spirit of the game, but abusing the fact that you're not using real models, is even worse.
    Also, you broke Crusade deliberately. You set out to do that. And when you were told not to do that, you immediately ran out of ideas. So I'm not sure what you proved on that one. That Summoning was broken in Narrative Games? ...Like I said; Known exploit.

    A game isn't broken unless you can do it by accident. Which, don't get me wrong, you can. Because Crusade is still 40K, and they use the same rules. Even the Agendas are basically just copy-pasted Secondaries that still encourage just tabling your opponent (seriously, go check the Space Marines' Codex). If it's broken at the top; It's cracked all the way down.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    My off the cuff read of crusade;

    -Power Level is necessary for Rosters, but will inevitably lead to more balance issues. It also changes how you're incentivized to load out your units, which might lead to people not having the optimal build available to them if your metagame is hardline WYSIWYG

    -While GW may be trying to push the idea that you don't need to be in a league/campaign to play crusade, you kind of do, because why should I care/believe your units are the way they are.

    -The internal balance of crusade upgrades is borderline non-existant. People who make certain fluffy choices will be at a major disadvantage against those who chose for pure efficiency (or happened to choose the best options because they liked those). I'm not sure this is a huge issue because a lot of the good/bad choices are obvious, and most people want their special narrative units to be badasses, but this does mean you can get screwed over by "trap" options, as well as...

    -The haves vs. have-nots of codex/supplement-specific crusade options is even more painful than the lack of unique secondary objectives for 8th edition codexes, because you're also missing bespoke upgrades. So Marines can give any unit they want the ability to choose it's own doctrine and keep their "super-doctrine" active if applicable*, and other armies get... nothing.

    -Using command points to correct for imbalances is... dubious. Especially if things start to snowball.

    -It's still 9th edition 40k, with all its current issues.

    *Because unlike every other rule that allows you to change what doctrine is active for a unit, Centurio Studs let you pretend that doctorine is active for the entire army, and thus can activate such things. So Sanguinary Guard can get -1 AP and +1 Attack. Forever.

    That's not to say you and your friends can't have fun with it. But one competitive player can throw things off for everyone else, and there's always the landmines of someone just liking the best stuff.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Power Level is necessary for Rosters, but will inevitably lead to more balance issues. It also changes how you're incentivized to load out your units, which might lead to people not having the optimal build available to them if your metagame is hardline WYSIWYG
    Correct. The instant you change a unit's wargear, that actually costs an RP. Or, it loses all XP and 'counts as' a new/fresh unit. So you shouldn't be switching wargear, which causes someone who can read, to just take the best stuff from day dot.

    While GW may be trying to push the idea that you don't need to be in a league/campaign to play crusade, you kind of do, because why should I care/believe your units are the way they are.
    Correct again.

    The internal balance of crusade upgrades is borderline non-existant. People who make certain fluffy choices will be at a major disadvantage against those who chose for pure efficiency (or happened to choose the best options because they liked those). I'm not sure this is a huge issue because a lot of the good/bad choices are obvious...
    It is a huge issue, because with 9th Ed. the way it is, the rules of the game funnel you into a certain playstyle. Certain playstyles achieve Agendas and win games, earning RP and XP.

    Don't like that playstyle? Or maybe you just happen to like the wrong units? After all, this is Narrative, take what you like, right? It's your story.
    You don't win games, earning less RP.
    You don't achieve Agendas, earning less XP.

    Yeah. You can 'fix' your Roster by spending RP. But why would you need to fix anything if it was good in the first place? The player in your meta who hasn't made bad choices - on purpose or by accident - is spending their RP adding PR and extra Warlord Traits and Relics to their Crusade list.

    Remember, in Crusade, you can have as many Warlord Traits and Relics on the board as you want. As long as, at some point in time, you paid an RP to get that Relic or Warlord Trait on your list. I hope you can trust people.

    The haves vs. have-nots of codex/supplement-specific crusade options is even more painful than the lack of unique secondary objectives for 8th edition codexes, because you're also missing bespoke upgrades. So Marines can give any unit they want the ability to choose it's own doctrine and keep their "super-doctrine" active if applicable*, and other armies get... nothing.
    I mean, that's a temporary problem. I'll admit that it's a problem. But it's not one that doesn't go away eventually.

    Using command points to correct for imbalances is... dubious. Especially if things start to snowball.
    Correct. Rubber Band Mechanics only work if everyone is more-or-less the same. Which they're not.

    It's still 9th edition 40k, with all its current issues.
    I think it's worse.
    Mission Objectives are the only way to win games. There are no Secondary Objectives. There is only one way to win games. Winning games earns faster RP. More RP means more stuff.
    The way XP works, only reinforces that playstyle. Destroying your opponent's units is the fastest way to earn XP. Having your units destroyed, potentially loses them XP.

    Forge a Narrative, but also play to win. Also play to earn XP.
    You don't have to Forge a Bad Narrative.

    That's not to say you and your friends can't have fun with it.
    1. Do I roll my Battle Honours, or can I pick? Why don't I just pick the best ones?

    2a. Do I roll my Battle Scars, or can I pick? Why don't I just pick the least bad one? 'Cause if I can pick my Battle Scars, I'll take the -1 Crusade Point if it makes no difference.
    2b. If I roll a Battle Scar, and it makes the unit unplayable, what's to stop me from just deleting the unit and picking up a new one?
    2c. If my unit is 'really good' and I've spent RP on them, or they're BH 3 or whatever, why wouldn't I just choose to lose XP, instead of rolling a Battle Scar?

    But one competitive player can throw things off for everyone else
    One player who's read the rules and built their Roster for the rules, can throw things off for everyone else.
    The only defence against this is to cry Stormwind Fallacy. However, that's not always going to be true - that's why it's a fallacy.
    Once again, playing Narratively isn't an excuse for playing badly.

    Crusade requires a moderator. Someone who keeps track of everything that's happened.
    That moderator, doesn't exist, outside of a tightly run campaign between friends. But that's not how GW sold it. GW sold it as you can travel anywhere in the world (something, something pandemic, but GW will ignore that and continue business as normal) and pick up your Crusade exactly where you left off.
    (Yes, my Crusade is 200 PR, and has 5 Warlord Traits and 10 Relics...That's just how many games I've played. Trust me.)

    and there's always the landmines of someone just liking the best stuff.
    As I've said repeatedly, 9th Ed. is a game that new and/or bad players can break by accident.
    (8th Ed. was too, but nowhere near as badly)
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    Crusade
    An 'Escalation League' It Is Not!

    Due to biased marketing bad hype trains, in addition to not actually being able to play games a lot of people don't actually know what Crusade is. This should cover it.

    Order of Battle (Bookkeeping Rule 1)
    It's everything you own. Your Supply Limit (SL) starts at 50 Power Rating (PR). As your Supply Rating increases, your Order of Battle increases. Your SL, is probably not going to be the same as your opponent's. Or rather, it probably shouldn't be, if you're playing correctly. When you and your opponent decide to have a game, you each take a look at each others' Order of Battle, and choose what units to bring, based on what you can read. Remember you should be able to make a Battle-forged army.

    Your Order of Battle is not your Army. At some point you should be able to tailor towards your opponents.

    Additionally, you cannot add new units to your Order of Battle unless you increase your Supply Limit.

    1. Delete a unit from your Roster and replace it with something better. That is, put a unit on your shelf and never use it again. GW thanks you for buying the unit you'll never use again, or
    2. Deliberately set out to play - and more importantly, win - more games, increase your Supply Limit using Requisition Points. This is a feature, not a bug.

    Requisition Points (Bookkeeping Rule 2)
    Your Order of Battle starts its Crusade with 5 Requisition Points (RP). It is used to purchase upgrades for your army. Straight off the bat you probably want to use 1 RP to give a Character a Warlord Trait, and you want to give a Character a Relic. This leaves you with 3 RPs left at the beginning of your Crusade.

    Once you use an RP to give a model a Warlord Trait or Relic, it's permanent. Additionally, even when they aren't your WARLORD, they are treated as such for the purposes of the Trait. So choose wisely, and choose well.

    With your 3 remaining RPs, you can immediately increase your Supply Limit on your Order of Battle by +15 PR. This means that your starting Roster will have 65 PR on it, and your opponent's may not. Even if you're currently only playing Combat Patrol 50 PR games. You can tailor towards whomever your opponent, is.

    You gain 2 RPs for winning a game, and 1 RP for losing a game. There are also Agendas that increase your RP gain. Those Agendas are really good.
    Winning games, will accelerate your Crusade progress significantly. You could say that winning games increases your progress by 100%.

    When meta-gaming, comparing RP rewards should always be compared to +5 to your Supply Limit. Because your Supply Limit is equal to your ability to tailor to your opponents.

    Remember, you and your opponent's Order of Battle should rarely be equal in Power. This is a feature, not a bug.
    'Good' players with 'good' Orders of Battle, are definitely not radically incentivised to play against 'bad' players with 'bad' Orders of Battle. You're reading the rules wrong.

    At some point, your Supply Limit will be so huge that your opponent's eyes glaze over when reading your Order of Battle.

    Experience (Bookkeeping Rule 3)
    Battle Honours. Your units Rank Up by being used in games and achieving Agendas. This keeps you invested in the game. When your units Rank Up, they can choose a Battle Honour; Trait, Enhancement, Psychic Fortitude or Crusade Relic. This does not increase their Power Rating, so it doesn't affect your Supply Limit, which means you should Rank Up as fast as possible and as hard as possible, 'cause there's (almost) no downside to Ranking Up. If the unit has PR of <10, increase its Crusade Points by +1. If the unit has a PR of 11+, increase their Crusade Points by +2. What's a Crusade Point? ...Jesus Christ.

    You can choose, or randomly roll, your Battle Honours. If you randomly roll a bad one, or you choose the perfect Honour for your unit, the Crusade Point total still only increases by +1. Hope you don't roll like ****, or just choose the best ones, 'cause the outcome on your Roster is the same. What matters is how they perform in the game.

    Battle Scars. Your units also get Destroyed most games. At the end of the game, destroyed units roll an Out of Action test. On a '1', you can choose one of the following:
    - Lose D6 XP, and don't gain any XP from the Battle just fought. The unit does not 'lose Rank'. It just makes it harder to get to the next Rank.
    - Earn a Battle Scar.
    Battle Scars decrease the unit's Crusade Points by 1.

    You can choose, or randomly roll, your Battle Scars. If you randomly roll a bad one, or you choose the perfect Scar for your unit, the Crusade Point total still only increases by -1. Hope you don't roll like ****, or just choose the best ones, 'cause the outcome on your Roster is the same. What matters is how they perform in the game.

    This bookkeeping must be kept on every, individual unit in your army. Enjoy.

    Crusade Points (Bookkeeping Rule 4)
    After you've chosen your army, count up the number of Crusade Points in it. The army with the least number of Crusade Points in it, gains the difference in Command Points to use during the Battle.

    ...But, the person with the better Order of Battle, and the better units, has already tailored to their opponent using their Order of Battle. So c'est la vie.

    Power Rating
    Power Rating is how you group your Order of Battle, and your army lists.
    Because of the way Requisition Points interact with your Supply Limit, you can group things by how much RP they cost, and whether they're worth it or not.

    e.g. Every time you lose a game, you can add a unit of 5 Intercessors to your Order of Battle. If you win a game, you can add a unit of Aggressors and a Company Ancient. However, remember, your army is defined by its Supply Limit. Jamming your Order of Battle full of units isn't what helps you win games. Having more choices than your opponent, is what wins games.
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  21. - Top - End - #501
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

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    So, I'm not a particularly good painter. I lack patience and skill.

    But I'm thinking about getting into Tyranids, and kinda want to do a rainbow scheme. The first picture in the above spoiler looks cool as all heck, but is probably something I don't have the skill or patience for. The second isn't as impressive, but looks much simpler to do.

    To the forum, then, I ask these questions:

    1) How would I do the first scheme? If anyone knows how.
    2) What are some cheap paints that still get good results? I'm not really inclined to buy GW paints right now, due to price.
    3) Brushes too-should I just grab craft store brushes, and will they get okay results? Or should I pony up for better ones? Keep in mind, not a good painter.
    4) Any other general tips or advice?
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  22. - Top - End - #502
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Well. Having played some 9th as my good ol' trusty Admech.... I'm considering swapping from running them as Graia to Rad Saturated.

    My entire strategy with Graia simply doesn't work with a more mobile force, which is needed for 9th. Like, sure I could *try* to keep an elaborate formation going pinging off of the warlord trait but...

    Anyway. The main loss is the anti-psyker. But I'm thinking of reworking the force to go heavy Pteraxii so I can probably just... Fly them over and kill psykers.
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  23. - Top - End - #503
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
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    So, I'm not a particularly good painter. I lack patience and skill.

    But I'm thinking about getting into Tyranids, and kinda want to do a rainbow scheme. The first picture in the above spoiler looks cool as all heck, but is probably something I don't have the skill or patience for. The second isn't as impressive, but looks much simpler to do.

    To the forum, then, I ask these questions:

    1) How would I do the first scheme? If anyone knows how.
    2) What are some cheap paints that still get good results? I'm not really inclined to buy GW paints right now, due to price.
    3) Brushes too-should I just grab craft store brushes, and will they get okay results? Or should I pony up for better ones? Keep in mind, not a good painter.
    4) Any other general tips or advice?
    I reckon you could get something close to the first scheme, quickly and with minimal skill using a blue (for the body) and green (armour plates) gw contrast paint. Then you just paint the bottom two thirds of each plate yellow and the bottom third red. Practice a couple of times on a spare genestealer to get the transition you like (Dettol is your friend for starting again when it doesn't work) and you're good to go.
    Sadly it's using gw paints though, hopefully someone else can help you with the cheaper options.

  24. - Top - End - #504
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
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    So, I'm not a particularly good painter. I lack patience and skill.

    But I'm thinking about getting into Tyranids, and kinda want to do a rainbow scheme. The first picture in the above spoiler looks cool as all heck, but is probably something I don't have the skill or patience for. The second isn't as impressive, but looks much simpler to do.

    To the forum, then, I ask these questions:

    1) How would I do the first scheme? If anyone knows how.
    2) What are some cheap paints that still get good results? I'm not really inclined to buy GW paints right now, due to price.
    3) Brushes too-should I just grab craft store brushes, and will they get okay results? Or should I pony up for better ones? Keep in mind, not a good painter.
    4) Any other general tips or advice?
    I was about to call you a liar when I saw the first image, but then I realised these were examples, and not your stuff. Everyone starts out by not being a great painter, you only get better with practice, but the amount of guides and step-by-step instructions and videos out there mean that even total newbies can get a really nice paintjob consistantly with a little bit of effort just by following a guide. One of the best things for me was to go into my FLGS (mine is a GW) and ask the better painters how to do [x], most of them will be more than happy to show you how and explain the little nuances. I found it much easier this way, as I could ask a bunch of questions whenever and about whatever and get a quick answer and often they could show me how to do it on one side of the mini and I could replicate it on the other side.

    As to the first question, look up "Feathering" (or more accurately, "Tyranid feathering") and then pick your favourite person to listen to or writing style as there's a million examples on how to do it. Here's a Duncan Rhodes vid with him painting a gaunt and he shows of feathering about 8 minutes in - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJaW_rQIS_s If you basically do the same thing, but with multiple layers of feathering in different colours, you'd get the rainbow effect on the first image.

    For the second, I can't help, I use all GW stuff, but I'm sure a legion of people will happily tell you their favourite alternatives.

    Question 3: It's much easier to not be a terrible painter if you have half decent brushes. I don't know that I would go out and buy a full set of Windsor Newtons right away, but if you've got even the most basic painting skills and a little bit of care for your stuff, a half decent set of brushes really, really helps boost your painting skills. You'd be surprised how few brushes you need, the better the painter, the more you can do with the "wrong" brush, but realistically, I'd say you only need about 4 brushes - a fine detail, a detail/standard, a base coat/large and a drybrush, and even if you pick up something nice in those 4, it shouldn't be too expensive. - Edit: And the drybrush doesn't need to be nice either, 'cause it's a drybrush, so yeah. Also, don't basecoat by hand, get a coloured (of the primary colour you're going to have for the majority of your minis) primer in a rattlecan, it's worth the small extra cost to save that much time.

    Last question - Practice is the only thing that will make you better. Sucking at something is the first step to being good at something. Don't be discouraged by anyone elses work, do your thing, keep getting better and keep your first mini to see how much you improve. Lighting is also a big thing that gets overlooked, and while a lot of people have fancy lighting set-ups, just sitting somewhere that gets enough light on your mini will be a big help. Obligatory Duncan tip of the day - thin your paints (ie mix them with a tiny bit of water) and do 2 thin coats instead of slopping the paint on in 1 thick layer. It'll take longer but look 10 times better. Really, the painting side of things is a little bit of upfront cost, but you'd be surprised how long a pot of paint will last you. I've never thought the paints were expensive TBH, but I do remember saying "gee, why would anyone ever need THAT many paints?" when GW used to do their xmas paint bundle, and now I have 2/3rds of their paint range.
    Last edited by Drasius; Today at 05:51 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #505
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    How bad would it be to pick up some cheap paints from JoAnn Fabrics or something? Specifically, acrylics?
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  26. - Top - End - #506
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Craft paints will work, just... not very well? Best to save that sort of thing for terrain. Even acrylics are typically much thicker than mini paints to start with. For minis, Vallejo and Army Painter are both cheaper than GW, and come in dropper bottles instead of terrible pots. You don't need that many paints. You can get by with one in each major colour you want, white, black, maybe a brown or two, and a brown and black wash/ink. That's only about 12 paints - normally I'd also recommend a silver and a gold, but you're doing Tyranids, you have way more justification to skip the metallics.
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  27. - Top - End - #507
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    How bad would it be to pick up some cheap paints from JoAnn Fabrics or something? Specifically, acrylics?
    Probably not great, though I have no idea what "JoAnn Fabrics" is. As long as it's acrylic, you can probably make it work OK, but I'd be buying a brand from here - https://www.fauxhammer.com/top-10/be...s-models-2019/

    IIRC, there's a thread or two over on Dakkadakka about people trying out cheap and nasty paints, and some of the better painters got passable results, but if you're spending $90 on a box of [whatever], do you really want to ruin it to save $10 on paint? If you're on a mission to be a better painter, it'll be a lot easier to get discouraged and quite if you start out using garbage. That's not to say use the top of the line everything, but at least use something made for painting minis.

    The more skilled you get as a painter, and the more techniques you want to be able to do, the more colours and brushes and such you'll need, but you can get a really good paint job with only a few colours and 1-2 brushes. Even if 5 paints and a pair of brushes are a significant cost, I'd putting off buying more models until you can get some passable kit rather than buying el cheapo stuff and being disappointed with mediocre results.

    Edit: Had a quick look on the GW site set to US prices (as that's where I assume you are);
    - $8 Medium shade brush
    - $6.75 Small base brush
    - $22.75 five colours of your choice
    = $37.50

    That's about the same cost as a box of scouts.

    You can wait for suggestions on a coloured primer as GW's ones are generally called exceedingly expensive, even for them (though I don't find them so, but given that they're $20 US, and only $30 AUD, I guess that's part of it).
    Last edited by Drasius; Today at 06:43 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #508
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    when it comes to paint, pretty much every brand is fine. You just need to find which ever has the right mix of pigment to flow improver/medium you personally like. DakkaDakka has a paint equivalency chart that is relatively helpful as is this https://redgrimm.github.io/paint-conversion/. I know that many people suggest army painters starter kit if you don't want to go GW. In the end though any water soluble acrylic will work, it just comes down to how much you have to thin it out. As for brushes I tend to stick with the Army painter line but again, its just find ones with a good point and maintain that point.
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