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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Yep. It was supposed to be the "If you don't like 8th edition then you can play this and carry on using the 7th ed rules" alternative, except that it quickly became apparent that 8th ed was the best thing to happen to 40k in a long, long time and then everyone very quickly got bored of Space Marines-vs-Space Marines being the only plausible match up.
    Don't say that on the 30k forums. Those guys are outright vindictive about how great their 7E rules set is and insist their community is growing by leaps and bounds. How dare anyway say that it is dead in their area. If its dead then you need to force other people to build 30k armies and start playing so its obviously your fault no one is playing in your area and the community is dead. But its not dead and your experience and meta is anecdotal and the greater community continues to grow and you are somehow missing out. And remember the once or twice a year HH tournament sells out each time faster than a Disney marathon. --EDIT no way in hell my wife would let me fly across the country, pay for a hotel room, and pay for entry just to play a game of 30k with a bunch of grognards who insist the game isn't dead. I think a lot of support for 30k comes from Europe and the UK where its quite easy to travel cheaply to other countries and get large groups of like minded players. A bit more difficult in a country where we measure distance as the time it takes to drive there by the hours.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    So just ran my Crusade 50 PL list into an Imperial Fist gunline:

    Spoiler: 50 PL of failure
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    ++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [50 PL, 7CP, 1,071pts] ++

    + Configuration +

    Battle Size [6CP]: 2. Incursion (51-100 Total PL / 501-1000 Points)

    Detachment CP

    Legion [1CP]: Red Corsairs

    + HQ +

    Daemon Prince with Wings [10 PL, 200pts]: Daemon-bound Power, Malefic talon, Prescience, Warlord, Wings
    . Slaanesh

    Sorcerer [6 PL, 125pts]: Combi-plasma, Death Hex, Force axe, Jump pack, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime

    + Troops +

    Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 60pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
    . 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun
    . Cultist Champion: Autogun

    + Elites +

    Helbrute [6 PL, 130pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
    . Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer
    . Power scourge

    Helbrute [6 PL, 130pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
    . Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer
    . Power scourge

    + Fast Attack +

    Bikers [5 PL, 113pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
    . Biker: Chainsword, Plasma gun
    . Biker: Chainsword, Plasma gun
    . Biker Champion: Combi-bolter, Power axe

    Bikers [5 PL, 113pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
    . Biker: Chainsword, Plasma gun
    . Biker: Chainsword, Plasma gun
    . Biker Champion: Combi-bolter, Power axe

    + Heavy Support +

    Defiler [9 PL, 200pts]: Combi-plasma, Mark of Slaanesh, Twin heavy flamer, Twin lascannon

    ++ Total: [50 PL, 7CP, 1,071pts] ++

    Created with BattleScribe


    I got stuck in Turn 1, but I lost the roll off so was down 1 unit of bikers and the Defiler. Couldnt manage to kill anything, got wiped in the return, conceded. Cant believe I ended up missing the survivability and damage output of melee Craftworlds, everything felt overcosted and crap.

    Dropping the campaign, Im sure people have their reasons to like CSM, but I cant stomach playing it atm.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    I think a lot of support for 30k comes from Europe and the UK where its quite easy to travel cheaply to other countries and get large groups of like minded players.
    I live 20 minutes away from Warhammer World, GW's head office and main HQ across the world. I can attest that 30k is very much dead in the UK, outside of the pre-arranged events and tournaments because they are the ONLY way that anyone can get a game.

    30k PUGs don't exist, and all 3 of the whatsapp groups I joined to find arranged games died off very, very quickly. As in, "before I could decide on what Legion I wanted to collect and buy any models for it" quickly. The best of them turned into 40k/Necromunda/Kill Team/ANYTHING ELSE within a couple of months of being established.

    I'm pretty sure at this point that 30k doesn't actually exist, and it's just GW code for their money laundering scheme.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2020-10-27 at 01:47 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I live 20 minutes away from Warhammer World, GW's head office and main HQ across the world. I can attest that 30k is very much dead in the UK, outside of the pre-arranged events and tournaments because they are the ONLY way that anyone can get a game.

    30k PUGs don't exist, and all 3 of the whatsapp groups I joined to find arranged games died off very, very quickly. As in, "before I could decide on what Legion I wanted to collect and buy any models for it" quickly. The best of them turned into 40k/Necromunda/Kill Team/ANYTHING ELSE within a couple of months of being established.

    I'm pretty sure at this point that 30k doesn't actually exist, and it's just GW code for their money laundering scheme.
    I think it also exists in the 'ohh, that looks like a fun project' space; I've certainly been tempted to make a small force of heresy era marines of some type. But I don't hold any expectation of ever playing it!
    Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    My group (which, to head off comments, has a high proportion of financially comfortably people in) got briefly entranced by it back in February-ish. Our plan was to all build armies for our meetup in April, but that got scotched by Lockdown. (I was going to take my Khorne to run as Ruinstorm daemons because I didn't have time to paint another army: a part of me is wishing I'd gone in on some Alpha Legion because I would have ended up with nearly a year to do it).
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Dropping the campaign, Im sure people have their reasons to like CSM, but I cant stomach playing it atm.
    People liked Chaos Marines when they almost had parity with the Loyalists.

    The Chaos Marine 8.2 Codex, was good. Especially compared to the Loyalist ones. Yeah, no Primaris Marines. But that's fine, because the Codex, is good.

    Then Codex Marine 8.2 dropped, and completely invalidated the BRAND NEW!!! Chaos Codex in what? Two months? Less?

    Then of course there's the new edition, and despite saying that they would, GW have not updated the Chaos Codex to make parity to Loyalists with 2 Wounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I'm pretty sure at this point that 30k doesn't actually exist, and it's just GW code for their money laundering scheme.
    We tried around Christmas. When Marines 8.2 and Maelstrom '19 made 8th Ed. a dumpster fire, a couple of bright sparks were like "Let's play 30K!", we played 30K at a club day, and we immediately remembered why 7th Ed. was terrible, and nobody has tried 30K since.
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    This happened a couple of days ago so it might already be well known, but I've only just found it - GW's upcoming rulebook Imperial Armour: Compendium is due out at the end of this week providing 9th edition rules for a swathe of Forgeworld units.

    191 units are getting updated rules, but the most interesting part is discussed over at Spiky Bits; that means there's another ~200 units (compared to the contents page for the 8th ed. versions of the book) which are NOT getting updated rules, and as such are quite likely going to become Legends, if at all.

    Not going to lie; I don't even recognise over 3/4ths of the stuff in either book let alone have ever seen them used on a table, so I can't say that I'm going to be heartbroken. Then again, both of the two Forgeworld units I have ever owned are getting new rules so possibly I am commenting with confirmation bias. "I got what I wanted, so it's probably going to be alright!", kinda thing.

    Still, seems like a hell of a cull and very early into the new edition - nothing says "transitioning to the new game will be easy and painless" like seeing your most expensive and unique centre-pieces getting immediately blacklisted.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2020-10-28 at 04:30 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    This happened a couple of days ago so it might already be well known, but I've only just found it - GW's upcoming rulebook Imperial Armour: Compendium is due out at the end of this week
    [...]
    there's another ~200 units (compared to the contents page for the 8th ed. versions of the book) which are NOT getting updated rules, and as such are quite likely going to become Legends, if at all.
    Not that I've checked, but Forge World has halted production on a ****-ton of models in the last year or so. Mostly Guard models.
    Cause and effect?

    Spoiler
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    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-10-28 at 04:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    "We've lost the Badab War characters!"

    Yes; apart from Asterion Moloc, Tyberos, Lufgt Huron, Sevrin Loth, Carab Culln, Armenneus Valthex, Ivanus Enkomi and Casan Sabius I suppose you have.
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Yes; apart from [the ones with models that Forge World sells]
    Fixed that for you.

    Essentially what we've learned, is that when your models go OOP, they get removed from the game.
    How long 'til GW stops making Tactical Squads?
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-10-28 at 06:15 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    They still have Legends rules, which should be good enough for casual play. I'm not best pleased that my Caestus is no longer in the book but I was hardly going to take it to tournaments.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    [The melancholy of no Repressor]

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    "We've lost the Badab War characters!"

    Yes; apart from Asterion Moloc, Tyberos, Lufgt Huron, Sevrin Loth, Carab Culln, Armenneus Valthex, Ivanus Enkomi and Casan Sabius I suppose you have.
    Nope the Culln from Badad is dead now, which I need a new commander.

    They totally bent the guard over on this one. Yeah we expected the Elysians and chaos guard to be legended, but not all their vehicles. They had some of the most stylish vehicles with actually decent rules for guard. Guess we cant have the cool looking dune buggies compete with the retarded looking marine go carts. Then they cut the legs out of the most grim dark iconic guard army, the DKoK. The only thing they have left are the various Death Riders and engineers. My storm army is done, no more mobs of centaur riding grenadiers supported by efficient while not OP leman russ tanks. Then to put the nail in the coffin, the gave them the second worst doctrine that they could have given them(the poor mordians are still the worst as it stands). Hey if your vehicle doesn't explode roll a 4+ and fire a single weapon on your lowest profile Yay.

    I used to be a big fan of Forge World and all the kooky rules, I never power gamed with them. I have 4000 points of Elysians which due to the rules being kind of meh, I rarely used as Elysians anyway. But at least I had current rules for all the cool vehicles. Plus the Caestus was severely over costed but I loved having it on the table. Yeah we can use it for legends this edition but after that its a worthless pile of resin. Why have you failed me so bad GW?

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    I used to be a big fan of Forge World and all the kooky rules, I never power gamed with them. I have 4000 points of Elysians which due to the rules being kind of meh, I rarely used as Elysians anyway. But at least I had current rules for all the cool vehicles. Plus the Caestus was severely over costed but I loved having it on the table. Yeah we can use it for legends this edition but after that its a worthless pile of resin. Why have you failed me so bad GW?
    As was said when the Legends warscrolls were first announced, they have to draw the line SOMEWHERE, I guess.

    The Imperial Armour series evidently included about 600 units.
    Six hundred. That's.... what, about eight 40k codices worth? Probably way more if you don't include the newly fattened Space Marines?
    All designed in a dozen different books over the last 3-4 editions. It's no surprise at all that the worst selling ones had to be cut, otherwise what else could they do? Support all 600 units with new rules into perpetuity, even if they only ever sold 5 of them in 2012?

    You have my unqualified sympathy - you've just been told that hundreds of dollars worth of your favourite things are now worthless and you can't use them any more, and it's probably a feeling akin to being slapped in the face.

    I'm loathe to defend the multi-billion dollar corporation that not too long ago declared a price hike, and then a new edition of rulebooks that they're trying to sell during a global depression... But this is a sensible business move, and frankly GW making those is worth noting.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    [The melancholy of no Repressor]
    Came here to highlight this. A lot of older Sisters of Battle players had Repressors as a fairly key part of their collection, though as they haven’t been produced in a while I’m not surprised they’re gone.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Came here to highlight this. A lot of older Sisters of Battle players had Repressors as a fairly key part of their collection, though as they haven’t been produced in a while I’m not surprised they’re gone.
    Thanks, although there wasnt much to produce :( Its just a tiny add-on on top of a Rhino. A razorback is more different from a Rhino than the Repressor was :(. I guess they just dont want mech sisters seeing how they are all about the infantry these days. But, a riot supression vehicle from which you can fire made so much sense for the heresy hunters that its sad to see it gone.
    Last edited by LansXero; 2020-10-28 at 09:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Came here to highlight this. A lot of older Sisters of Battle players had Repressors as a fairly key part of their collection, though as they haven’t been produced in a while I’m not surprised they’re gone.
    It was literally just a different turret and a bit of extra height on the roof. Hell, most people who play Sisters that I knew made their own with card stock.

    I'm more surprised about the Renegade Guard considering that they seemed very popular
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    It was literally just a different turret and a bit of extra height on the roof. Hell, most people who play Sisters that I knew made their own with card stock.

    I'm more surprised about the Renegade Guard considering that they seemed very popular
    Renegade Guard might have their own plastic release alongside a supplement when the IG codex comes out (baseless speculation ofc).

    I really hoped the Sisters Rhino would include the Repressor option as a dual kit when they relaunched it.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    While Kutlakh and Toholk never had models, it's a bit sad to see the Maynarkh Dynasty basically die with their exclusion. Sure, Novokh is basically the same thing in "core" 40k lore now, but it's a bit sad nonetheless.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post

    I really hoped the Sisters Rhino would include the Repressor option as a dual kit when they relaunched it.
    Same, it was definitely a thing Sisters groups were calling for. I guess it fits in a similar space to the Immolator, but with the Immolator gaining a surprise heavy bolter anyway (and so deviating from the standard Rhino) they could have done a dual set with it or something.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Not that I've checked, but Forge World has halted production on a ****-ton of models in the last year or so. Mostly Guard models.
    Cause and effect?

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    Yeah. My Tauros vehicles are sad.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Oooh weee.

    Space Marine Elites, let's go...

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    Command Squad. In shockingly poor editing, there's a rule spread over multiple entries, and none of those entries are consecutive. Here are those rules, summarised:
    • If your Detachment includes a CAPTAIN (any kind, that is), if your Detachment also includes a COMMAND SQUAD (read; Company Veterans) in the same Detachment, the Company Veterans don't have to take a Role slot.
    • If your Detachment includes a COMMAND SQUAD (again read; Company Veterans), for each squad, if you also include one or more of the following; Company Champion, Apothecary and/or Company Ancient, you can have any or all of them not take up Role slots.

    Company Champion: Almost literally on par with a Melee-Captain. But unfortunately doesn't have the option for a Jump Pack or Bike, which means walking around on foot, which means that this guy is only reserved for certain Chapters, or unless you have a really specific battle plan. Since this guy has no options at all, a Company Champion makes an almost-perfect candidate to wield The Burning Blade, whilst your actual Captain wields something like a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer. Or, you may not want to waste one of your Relic slots so that your Primaris Chaplain on Bike can still use Benediction of Fury. Additionally, this model can Heroically Intervene 6", as long as it's towards a CHARACTER. Additionally, the Champion gains Always Strikes First when engaged with a CHARACTER, whether he targets the Character or not.

    Scout Squad: Concealed Positions. This is the cheapest unit in the Codex. Unfortunately, in the Elites slot, they have a lot of competition, especially because unlike everything else, they only have a single wound each, and thus are almost not even worth putting on the board. Especially when you have a bunch of Primaris units that can do the exact same thing, even with Concealed Positions. Their most useful...Use...Is that they can be equipped with Scout Sniper Rifles, which ignore Look Out, Sir which is very nice for dealing wounds to Characters, because remember on Turn 1, Sniper Rifles will have AP-2, and can actually put on the hurt for the low price of 80 Points. If your opponents decide not to hide their Characters out of LoS, they're potentially playing against you wrong.

    Apothecaries - Heal a model in a friendly INFANTRY or BIKER unit for D3 lost wounds. Additionally, all INFANTRY and BIKER units within 6" gain Ignore Wounds (6+).

    Primaris Apothecary: The Primaris version is only 5 extra Points, and comes with an extra Wound and better weapons. If you're playing with Power Level, they're the exact same Power Rating.

    Apothecary: The only reason to use one of these - instead of the Primaris version - is if you're doing something with Transports, that a Primaris model can't ride in, or, you're doing a thing with Company Veterans, and you're trying to max out your Elite slots, and you need to get the Apothecary outside of its Role slot.

    Ancients - A CORE unit within 6" gains +1 Leadership. Additionally, each time a model from a unit in range is destroyed, roll a 4+; That destroyed model may shoot one of its ranged weapons, or, may make a single melee attack. Obviously, an Ancient of one sort or another, is a must-have in any form of gunline. For Melee? Not so much.

    Company Ancient: Pick up a Boltgun. There's not a lot else to do. If you really, really, really want to run an Ancient straight into Melee, a Lightning Claw is a good choice. Remember how your Command Squads work.

    Primaris Ancient: 5 Points more for an extra attack and an extra wound isn't saying much. The 'better gun' in this case, is a Bolt Rifle, which probably isn't saying much if your Troops slots are loaded with Intercessors. Also, a Company Ancient with a Storm Bolter, costs the same 80 Points, and is probably better for basically the same thing, especially if you're abusing Command Squads.

    Bladeguard Ancient: In addition to the standard Banner Aura, a Bladeguard Ancient gives BLADEGUARD units within 6" (including himself), +1 Attack. This is great if you're going to be playing a specific Melee Chapter, or running specific Tactics, and spamming Bladeguard units.

    Ancient in Terminator Armour: It's an Ancient. In Terminator Armour. Is 100 Points worth it? ...Probably not. If you're playing Dark Angels, and your Detachment includes a DEATHWING COMMAND SQUAD, you can take one of these outside a Role slot. But again...100 Points...Why?

    Veteran Intercessor Squad: Nothing about their statline changes, except for +1A and +1Ld. Which has no effect on their guns. Except as VETERAN INTERCESSORS, they can be affected by the 'shoot twice' Stratagem...Except Intercessors in the Troops slot, do that, for less points, because ranged weapons don't scale with the model wielding them, so go with the cheaper ones. Veteran Intercessors also have no way of picking up the Assault Intercessor Keyword, so they can't use the 'fight twice' Stratagem at all, which, for their extra Attack, actually makes them objectively worse than Assault Intercessors - also in the Troops slot - when they take Chainswords. This unit has no need to be in the Codex. Ignore. Maybe you can paint them to represent Veterans. But you should, at no point, use them as Veterans, 'cause there's just no point.
    Veteran Intercessors and Veteran Assault Intercessors, same Datasheet. Couldn't possibly do that in the Troops slot. That would be craaazy!

    Bladeguard Veteran Squad: Very, very, very strong unit. For some reason they have three wounds each, when Gravis is not even a Keyword that they have. They also come stock with a Storm Shield, and S5, AP-2, 2D Melee weapons, making them straight-up bests, especially for their extremely cheap 40 Points per model. You'll want to get some.

    Company Veterans: (read; Command Squad) At 20 Points each, base, the most economical loadout is Storm Bolter, Storm Shield, done. Unfortunately, in a meta where models with multiple wounds and good armour saves dominate, you're way better off giving all of them Combi-Gravs, instead.
    • Bodyguard. If a friendly CHARACTER that has 9 or less Wounds is within 3" of this squad, that Character can not be targeted by ranged attacks. This is not the same as Look Out, Sir, this is a whole different rule that certain weapons (e.g; Sniper Rifles) do not ignore. Is your opponent forced to target the Company Veterans, instead? Nope. What's the downside, then? ...THERE ISN'T ONE! If you take a unit of Company Veterans, and you put any CHARACTERS near the unit, they are straight up immune to bullets. Fortunately (?), a group of Company Veterans maxes out at 5 models. Which is actually fine, 'cause you're Astartes and why would you want a squad with more than 5 models? However, there is nothing stopping you from running as many Company Veteran Command Squads as you want. You might even get one without spending a Role slot because you get one Captain per Detachment! In short, if you've got one of these units, Assassinate and Slay the Warlord become much less viable Secondaries for your opponent, and that means you're winning the game, easier.

    Your Detachment can include multiple squads of Company Veterans. Your Detachment can include multiple Company Champions, Company Ancients, and Apothecaries, without any of them taking Role slots.

    Vanguard Veterans: 19 Points, base. But, if you're going to have them on foot, you're better off with Company Veterans. So give them Jump Packs, and kit them out with whatever Melee Weapon & Storm Shield you want.

    Sternguard Veterans: These guys are totally outclassed by Company Veterans until the Bodyguard rule gets nerfed. Bodyguard actively contributes to your opponent not winning the game as easily as they could do. Whether you have a CAPTAIN in your Detachment or not. Bodyguard applies to every Character, and it's amazing.

    Judiciar: Fantastic melee Character... How does it get into Melee? Use your brain and CPs, or don't use him at all.

    Reiver Squad: Special Issue Bolt Pistols, now? These guys are not a good Melee unit. These guys' job is to get into Melee after you've done significant damage in the Shooting/Psychic phase, and force a Morale test at -2. In addition, remember that Reivers can be targeted by a fantastic Stratagem that simply turns off your opponent's Objective Secured, which is actually really strong. But, it's important to remember, that despite appearances, this unit is not a Melee unit. It's a Morale debuffer...Which honestly might not even have a place in the meta.

    Aggressor Squad: If hordes are a problem in your meta, these guys are very, very good. However, if hordes are not your problem, and you're more dealing with opponents who are running MSU Infantry (e.g; Space Marines, Custodes, Sororitas, etc.), you're much, much, much better off with Heavy Intercessors, which are the same unit, cheaper, and Troops.

    Terminator Assault Squad: As far as Melee units go, these guys are among the best in the book. However, they trade direct, killing power, for Storm Shields, which is fine. The AP-2 on Thunder Hammers isn't great, but if your opponent is running models with 3+ Wounds (Custodes, Death Guard Terminators), having Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields is really, really good, because models that are T5, with 3+ Wounds, tend to hit back just as hard, and that's where your Storm Shields come in.

    Terminator Squad: Storm Bolters and Power Fists. Come back when Terminators can take Combi-Gravs. Get Storm Bolters from Company Veterans. Get Power Fists from Vanguard Veterans, or just run the Assault Terminators, above. These guys try and do two things at once, and thus, fail at both.

    Relic Terminator Squad: Like regular Terminators, but also worse.

    Centurion Assault Squad: Why aren't they CORE? Who knows? These guys are the best Melee unit in the book. They're what Aggressors wish they were, and their Siege Drills are what Thunder Hammers, wish they were. Centurion Assault Launchers, lets you use the Assault Launchers Stratagem, and if you're Charging on Turn 1, that's kind of a big deal. If you're doing a Turn 2 Charge from Reinforcements, that works too. Very strong unit. GW really wants to make them bad. Unfortunately, they just can't. The only reason to not use this unit, is if you're playing heavily into Abilities that give CORE units Objective Secured, or, you're army has a Chapter Master in it.

    Invictor Tactical Warsuit: It's a not!Dreadnought (and thus, not CORE), with Concealed Positions. They're pretty good. Unfortunately, they're T6 Vehicles with 10+ Wounds. So if your opponent can kill them easily, you're basically throwing the game for some reason. They take a similar position in the Codex as Centurion Assault Squads, but don't quite cost as much, aren't as good, and don't require Stratagems and CPs to deploy halfway up the board to get into Melee on Turn 1. Very aggressive unit that's not even bad.

    Dreadnoughts - Reduce incoming Damage by 1 - to a minimum of 1. Very good.
    Dreadnought:
    Venerable Dreadnought: Not only does the Venerable Dreadnought have better WS/BS, it also has Ignore Wounds (6+). There is no reason to take a regular Dreadnought. Unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do with them. Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher...That's it.

    Contemptor Dreadnought: Similar to 'regular' Terminators, these Dreadnoughts try to do too many things and fail at all of them. Kheres-Pattern Assault Cannons only deal single damage, means that any unit or model that carries two Heavy Bolters - or Grav-Cannons! - is already better. The Dreadnought Combat Weapon is no different to any other Dreadnought Weapon, and the Contemptor still lacks the ability to actually get anywhere to use it, since almost all Movement and Deployment Stratagems only affect INFANTRY. On the other hand, it's a Vehicle with a 5+ Invulnerable save, which is really good. Still...It's main weapon only deals single damage, and trading it for a Multi-Melta...Just use something else.

    Ironclad Dreadnought: Use Invictor Tactical Warsuits.

    Redemptor Dreadnoughts: Since a Redemptor doesn't implode itself when it rolls a '1' on its Plasma weapon, take that, and stand next to a CAPTAIN and abuse that CORE Keyword. Unfortuantely, in 9th Ed.'s New-Marine meta, the Easy-to-Build (i.e; Cheap) version of the Redemptor has fallen into utter disuse, since single-Damage weapons are nowhere near as viable as they used to be.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Contemptors, unlike Redemptors, are at least small enough to be transported by Stormravens. So that's one way of getting to places they need to get to.

    Regarding the Primaris Apothecary - because they have "Primaris Apothecary" rather than "Apothecary" as their keyword, as written, they can't be a Chief Apothecary, or use that powerful Apothecary stratagem. I suspect that this will be errataed pretty fast.

    It's also unclear if Space Wolves can take them or not (Wolves can't take regular Apothecaries).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    COMMAND SQUAD (read; Company Veterans)
    Deathwing Command Squads also have this keyword. It can free up a lot of Elite slots for certain lists, I guess.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Regarding the Primaris Apothecary - because they have "Primaris Apothecary" rather than "Apothecary" as their keyword, as written, they can't be a Chief Apothecary, or use that powerful Apothecary stratagem.
    Once more I really want to consider that a feature, not a bug.
    Firstborn should take the vast majority of Veteran and Command roles in the Chapter. Primaris Marines are barely 100 years old, but suddenly they're everywhere.

    Well, umm akshully, a Space Marine can undergo the Rubicon procedure and technically become a Primaris Marine...
    Isn't that super rare and reserved for special occasions and desperation, only? Because of the fact that it goes wrong almost 100% of the time?
    (Ignoring that the Rubicon hasn't 'gone wrong' in any case where it actually might matter. Still waiting for the nail in the coffin; "And then Lysander underwent the Rubicon procedure, and died, melted and screaming on a surgery table. **** you.")

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntpencil View Post
    It can free up a lot of Elite slots for certain lists, I guess.
    Well, I don't know if it was planned or not, considering that Codecies are written at least 8 months in advance...

    When 9th Ed. first came out, everyone threw their Characters into the bin onto the shelf, because Assassinate was one of the best Secondaries in the game, and certainly one of the easiest, too (I myself, had Imperial Fists pre-nerf Eliminators). Space Marines - and Harlequins - not only have Characters in the HQ slot, but their Elites slots are full of Characters too, giving your opponent a free Secondary and losing one-third of every game without even trying to.

    With the Bodyguard rule, not only are Space Marine HQs back on the menu (especially if/when Blood Angels Company Veterans get Jump Packs...Though I think that'll just be Sanguinary Guard), but a whole host of Space Marine Elites characters are back on the menu, too, because those Characters - like Apothecaries - don't just insta-die anymore against Sniper-heavy armies (like Space Marines and any Vindicares).

    Did GW know that Space Marine Characters would be in the dumpster fire when 9th Ed. came out? Did they already know to fix it?

    But really, Command Squad/Bodyguard is something that only Firstborn can do. There is no Primaris equivalent.

    Once more for the cheap seats; 'Firstborn' does not mean 'Tactical Squads, only'. Use other units that aren't terrible - they do exist.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-10-29 at 02:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    Well, I don't know if it was planned or not, considering that Codecies are written at least 8 months in advance...
    There are some implications, from recent previews, that at least some planning might be getting done.



    'Ignore hit roll and Ballistic Skill modifiers for that attack' implies some degree of planning between Codexes, or at least a minor degree of future-proofing. As it stands, we have penalties to hit rolls, but there's no such thing as a 'Ballistic Skill modifier'. This seems to imply that Aeldari units may inflict penalties to Ballistic Skill as well as hit rolls - a way of getting round the -1 cap on modifiers to hit and wound rolls.

    Of course, knowing GW, I'm giving them too much credit. :D

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Once more I really want to consider that a feature, not a bug.
    Firstborn should take the vast majority of Veteran and Command roles in the Chapter. Primaris Marines are barely 100 years old, but suddenly they're everywhere.
    Ultima founding chapters made up entirely Primaris marines do exist; One of their Apothecaries has to be the chief by default
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Contemptors, unlike Redemptors, are at least small enough to be transported by Stormravens. So that's one way of getting to places they need to get to.

    Regarding the Primaris Apothecary - because they have "Primaris Apothecary" rather than "Apothecary" as their keyword, as written, they can't be a Chief Apothecary, or use that powerful Apothecary stratagem. I suspect that this will be errataed pretty fast.

    It's also unclear if Space Wolves can take them or not (Wolves can't take regular Apothecaries).
    FWIW, the app just has them as ‘Apothecary’ not ‘Primaris Apothecary’. But it’s not as if the app is a reliable source right now.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Once more I really want to consider that a feature, not a bug.
    Firstborn should take the vast majority of Veteran and Command roles in the Chapter. Primaris Marines are barely 100 years old, but suddenly they're everywhere.
    I'm focusing on "all-Primaris chapters" from the Ultima Founding here.

    An "All-Primaris chapter" can, RAW, have a Chapter Master, a Chapter Ancient, a Chapter Champion, a Chief Librarian, a High Priest (or whatever it's called) ... but they can't have a Chief Apothecary? Sounds like a bug to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    FWIW, the app just has them as ‘Apothecary’ not ‘Primaris Apothecary’. But it’s not as if the app is a reliable source right now.
    That's sufficient evidence for me. All it takes is one missing comma, after all.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-10-29 at 08:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntpencil View Post
    There are some implications, from recent previews, that at least some planning might be getting done.



    'Ignore hit roll and Ballistic Skill modifiers for that attack' implies some degree of planning between Codexes, or at least a minor degree of future-proofing. As it stands, we have penalties to hit rolls, but there's no such thing as a 'Ballistic Skill modifier'. This seems to imply that Aeldari units may inflict penalties to Ballistic Skill as well as hit rolls - a way of getting round the -1 cap on modifiers to hit and wound rolls.

    Of course, knowing GW, I'm giving them too much credit. :D
    Culexus Assassins and the Alaitoc ranger stratagem exist, you know?

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