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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    That's sufficient evidence for me. All it takes is one missing comma, after all.
    Would have been my thought as well, except that the printed codex has ďPrimaris, Primaris Apothecary.Ē I suspect the second Primaris is a typo, given you donít get Primaris Techmarine or anything else written in the same way, but needs errata.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Forum ate my Fast Attack post.

    Short version:

    Assault Squads; Bad.

    Outriders; Resilient, but lack the firepower to be competitive in the New Marine meta. Bad.

    Invader ATVs; Gimmickly resilient. Lack the firepower to be competitive in the New Marine meta. What makes them good (i.e; A gimmick) is likely to get nerfed. Maybe wait until the first Errata - or CA'20? - until you go and buy 9.

    Bike Squads; Firstborn units with access to masse Grav-weapons, are very good - especially when they have 3 Wounds and T5. "What if Terminators could take Grav-weapons...They'd be really good..." Taking more than the minimum Bikers, is too many.

    Scout Bikes; Entire unit can have Astartes Grenade Launchers, and that's...Decent. Main use is in a Chapter where they can Advance and Charge. Alternatively, give them a bunch of bonuses to Charge and have them move normally. Their role is to be a non-Concealed Positions Turn 1 Charge, and that's not nothing, since Scout Bikes don't rely on deploying first to grab board control which allows them to Charge. They just have enormous movement, and auto-Advance 6", and carry all Assault weapons.

    Attack Bikes; Unsurprisingly very effective with Multi-Meltas. Arguably best in slot. But in their role, compete with Eradicators.

    Suppressors; Highly valued in the New Marine meta. Smokescreen and Phobos Keywords make them viable, even if they are 'only' T4 with 2 Wounds each.

    Inceptors; Trades firepower for resilience (T5, 3 Wounds). Here, we see that Inceptors never actually had Heavy Bolters, and are stuck at 1 Damage. Hopefully this means that Deathwatch will ramp them significantly. But, for now, trading firepower for resilience is something that only Iron Hands can gamble on.

    Storm Speeders; All terrible, too overcosted. T6 and 10 Wounds is bad. All bad. All the time.
    Storm Speeders have 3 Datasheets.

    Land Speeders; An argument could be made that they're better than Attack Bikes - because Fly - and they are much, much better than Storm Speeders - because points cost. Don't necessarily compete with Eradicators.
    Land Speeders have 3 Datasheets.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-10-29 at 11:31 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Another review of meta data from Goonhammer, with a lot more analysis on the first turn advantage and how scoring looks round by round. They conclude the meta is surprisingly healthy in terms of factions:

    Quote Originally Posted by Goonhammer
    Weíre in an interesting place. While marines are the dominant faction in terms of the number of armies in the field, theyíre not nearly the powerhouses they once were, and the preponderance of marine targets and armies opens things up for minority factions that do well in the 9th edition mission structure. The end result is a meta where thereís a decent variety of winning lists and competitive factions, even if some are hamstrung badly.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    They conclude the meta is surprisingly healthy in terms of factions:
    ...From three weeks ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Most Factions are fine.
    What most Factions are not, is 'the same as they were in 8th Ed.'
    Factions have never been the problem.
    You want to win with Orks? I can tell how you to win with Orks.
    You want to win with Tyranids? I can tell you how to do that, too.

    Any Faction, can compete. The game is currently very, very, very easy to play. Because the meta is so stale stable, and isn't likely to change for a while, until GW introduces some radically different Secondaries in upcoming Codecies, and nerfs...Everything. You don't have to play Space Marines. You just have to play like Space Marines. Most Factions can do that.* There's no problem with Factions, taken as entirety. The problem, is with Factions taking black markers and deleting entire pages from their Codex.
    "But the Faction still competes, so there's no problem." Wait...When did I become the casual? And Avaris, the competitive player?

    *Noting that the current top armies in the game have army-wide Invulnerable saves. Maybe that's something that might matter when Marines are rocking AP-2 as standard?

    Furthermore, of course Marines have seen a reduction, because they got a new Codex and everything good, was nerfed, so people currently have **** armies and can't adapt. Anyone who was running Intercessors with Bolt Rifles - or Auto Bolt Rifles - has found their Intercessors get nerfed into the ground. Got Stalkers? Nope? Eat ****. Hell, even if you have Stalkers, they're not as good. Just buy Heavy Intercessors already. Was your game plan pre-9th revolving around Centurion Devastators and Eliminators? Eat ****. Were you playing Raven Guard with Concealed Positions Assault Centurions? Eat ****. You can still do the Concealed Positions thing, but now you have to do it with Aggressors (because GW hates Centurions). Do you have Aggressors?

    What do you mean my loss rate went up after everything good I had got nerfed? That's craaazy. But I also know for a fact that that doesn't mean that there isn't anything good in my Codex. I just have to...Wait for it...[ Buy new models. ] ...Did you guess it? I bet you did. It's white text. Highlight it. See if you got the answer.

    How 'bout we wait longer than three weeks, so people can adapt to the new Codex and buy what they need to? Because we know that the Codex is really, really, really good. Even if the tournament data doesn't show it (because how can it possibly), because we have eyes and we can read. It doesn't matter that Centurion Devastators got nerfed, because Heavy Intercessors exist*, now. And how many 8th Ed. players have got 2-3 Company Veteran units lying around ready to go? No-one.

    * While we're talking about it; Heavy Intercessors and Primaris Chaplains on Bikes, still don't actually exist. Neither do Eradicators or Bladeguard. Some really fundamental units going forward, that most people, can't actually get. Maybe that fundamentally restricts what Space Marine players can take?


    Finally, what's great about Space Marines, is that everyone plays them. Which means global stats can't show the real picture, because *shock* skill level isn't equal. Space Marines aren't balanced because someone in a tournament goes 5-0, and someone else goes 0-5. That's...Not how that works.

    What you really want to do, is take a single, massive tournament where everyone is playing by the exact same rules in an extremely competitive meta. Get the top 16 army lists...Maybe pare it down to Top 8. See if you can spot some trends.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-10-30 at 10:58 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Another review of meta data from Goonhammer, with a lot more analysis on the first turn advantage and how scoring looks round by round. They conclude the meta is surprisingly healthy in terms of factions:
    I find it weird that the other top factions got a little blurb and the Orks didn't.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    @Cheesegear, I was simply highlighting a thing I found interesting from the article as part of sharing it, not saying you hadnít already been saying this! Iím still not a competitive player, but I find the data interesting, and seeing how factions are doing is a part of that, particularly where they have analysis around go first/go second and which battle round is most critical to victory. It sounds like a lot of games are decided on round 2, which feels suboptimal to me: ideally, every round dhould mattr, but that is clearly not the case.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    @Cheesegear, I was simply highlighting a thing I found interesting from the article as part of sharing it, not saying you hadnít already been saying this! Iím still not a competitive player, but I find the data interesting, and seeing how factions are doing is a part of that, particularly where they have analysis around go first/go second and which battle round is most critical to victory. It sounds like a lot of games are decided on round 2, which feels suboptimal to me: ideally, every round dhould mattr, but that is clearly not the case.
    I kinda wanna see a compilation of units usage rates. I have a feeling it's be pretty telling for some
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    * While we're talking about it; Heavy Intercessors and Primaris Chaplains on Bikes, still don't actually exist
    *confused penguin noises* (Wait, that doesn't make sense without my old avatar. *confused kobold noises*?)


    Glibness aside, If I recall correctly they were available in most of the world; Just not Australia, because GW struggles to get things to you guys on time.
    Last edited by Squark; 2020-10-30 at 02:05 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    *confused penguin noises* (Wait, that doesn't make sense without my old avatar. *confused kobold noises*?)


    Glibness aside, If I recall correctly they're available in most of the world; Just not Australia, because GW struggles to get things to you guys on time.
    They're out of stock for me in the US too.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    They're out of stock for me in the US too.
    That might be a case of them selling out, though. My FLGS definitely got some, but I don't know if they've sold out since I was in there two weeks ago. Since taking an already good unit and making it better at what it wants to do, for a relatively tiny increase in point cost, is a good way to sell a lot of a particular model (particularly since firstborn biker captains have to be kitbashed, and the only other fast moving, T5 beatstick characters are on Thunderwolves).

    Edit: Yup, they're sold out

    Edit2: For centurion Assault Squads, is it worth the points to upgrade them to meltaguns, or should I save the points and run flamers? Or a mixture of the two? Is it worth giving the two non-sergeants hurricane bolters?
    Last edited by Squark; 2020-10-30 at 04:33 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Primaris Space Wolves and Deathwatch Start Collecting! boxes have disappeared.
    If that's because the Combat Patrol boxes are the 9th Ed. replacements for SC! ...That's a real bad sign for new players.

    EDIT: Well, this is Warhammer Weekend, and if you spend money, you get free stuff...So I bought my local store's last remaining copies of the Space Wolves' and Deathwatch SC! boxes. Now I have to hope that GW doesn't **** me and delete Deathwatch Veterans from the Supplement. But, then again, now I have more than enough parts to make three squads of 'vanilla' Company Veterans. Which is a nice use for them, even if Deathwatch removes DW.Vets from the Troops slot (or just, significantly nerfs them). And the Primaris Space Wolves SC! box is good, because I have loads of snap-fit Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, and I need more Stalker Bolt Rifles. Also, Aggressors are the new Assault Centurions.

    EDIT II:

    Edit2: For centurion Assault Squads, is it worth the points to upgrade them to meltaguns, or should I save the points and run flamers? Or a mixture of the two? Is it worth giving the two non-sergeants hurricane bolters?
    r.e; Meltaguns. Not Really. If you want Meltaguns in your army, get them off Eradicators (when they come out), or start spamming Vehicles with Multi-Meltas.
    r.e; Hurricanes. Wait for nerfs. I find it hard to believe that GW will let you use the Assault Launchers Stratagem if only a single model in the unit has them.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-10-30 at 09:36 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Let's try this again.

    Spoiler: Fast Attack
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    Assault Squads: You're taking the Jump Packs. Ultimately, however, this unit is inferior to any Primaris unit with Concealed Positions (e.g; Incursors), and still manages to be inferior to other units with alternate deployment abilities (e.g; Reivers). Even if you were to play RAVEN GUARD, and using alternate deployment abilities, when the best thing you can say about a unit is "Well, they can take Plasma Pistols, which are pretty good." You know the unit is circling the drain.

    Outriders: T5 and 4 Wounds is pretty phenomenal. Being CORE BIKERS allows them to abuse several abilities in the Codex. But, at the end of the day, even though all of their attacks - ranged and melee - are AP-1, fact is, they're only 1 Damage attacks, and thus, there are better choices you can make with basically the same resilience.

    Invader ATVs: T5 and 8 Wounds, is ****ing amazing. Especially when Invaders are neither Characters, nor Vehicles - which means that they don't give up additional Secondary VPs when they're destroyed. However, similar to Outriders, their weapon loadout is quite terrible, being locked at 1 Damage, and, whilst Outriders have Twin Bolt Rifles; Invaders have Twin Auto Bolt Rifles, giving up their AP value. Still, with a Multi-Melta, Invaders are surprisingly good.
    • Nerf Alert: Since Invaders are BIKERS, rather than VEHICLES, this allows Apothecaries to use Combat Restoratives on Invaders, effect Invaders with the Narthecium Aura, and also use the Combat Revival Stratagem incredibly effectively on Invaders, since they have 8 Wounds each. For a single CP - or 0 CPs, even - you can bring back an 85 Point model with full wounds. It's just as good as Summoning...No wait. It's better. However, this does require that your Invader, actually come in Squadrons of minimum 2 for this to work. If you have a single Invader, and it dies, it's dead, Jim. Additionally, if you have a unit of 2 Invaders, if your opponent destroys one, they get no VPs, since the unit isn't destroyed, since they're not Vehicles, and they don't operate independently. It's entirely possible to play Musical Invaders. Your army can include multiple squadrons of Invaders, and multiple Apothecaries.

    Bike Squads: Generally competing with Shootynators, because a squadron of 3 has access to [Grav-Guns (x2), Combi-Grav], plus the Twin Boltguns on the front of the Bike. At 40 Points each, these guys are very, very, very good. They can annihilate 5-man squads with ease, and with their speed, cap Objectives, too. Very strong unit. However, taking more than a minimum sized unit, is too many Bikers. Since the only reason you want to take them is for the fast Grav-Guns that can get into Rapid Fire range very, very easily.

    Scout Bike Squad:; The entire unit can have Astartes Grenade Launchers. It's not much. But when your entire unit of 5 has S6, D3 Damage attacks, the Damage very quickly adds up. But, the problem with that, is that 5 Scout Bikes, are more expensive than 3, regular Bikers. Still, a very important note about this unit is their speed, combined with an Auto-Advance of 6", combined with every wargear option they have (except for the Twin Boltguns, which you replaced with AGLs, right?) are Assault weapons, which means that this unit can output a ton of firepower, whilst still moving very, very quickly anywhere they want on the board. Additionally, this unit works very, very well in WHITE SCARS, where Bikers can Advance and Charge in the same turn, which allows for a non-Concealed Positions Turn 1 Charge, so you're not reliant on deploying first to get the board control.

    Attack Bikes: Cheap as dirt with T5 and 4 Wounds. Imagine Outriders, but instead, all of them pack Multi-Meltas. Very, very strong contender for best in slot. Especially since unlike Invaders or Land Speeders, Attack Bikes have the CORE Keyword, which allows them to use several abilities that other models, couldn't.

    Suppressors: Surprisingly effective unit - despite only being T4, 2 Wounds, when everything good has T5, 3 Wounds - since they have the PHOBOS and SMOKESCREEN Keywords, which allows them to not get hit so badly, and allows them to do certain tricks. With a S7, 2 Damage weapon, Suppressors can punch holes in a lot of light targets allowing you to rack up some early-game Secondary VPs off of your opponent's Light Vehicle spam (e.g; Models with T6 and a lot of wounds). However, a glaring issue is that Bikers with Grav-Guns, and Scout Bikes with Krak Launchers, can do more or less the same job, for less points. Just, without FLY. But, as non-Melee units that can move quickly, terrain isn't a problem so it's fine. Furthermore, Suppressors take -1 to hit when they move, so you've got to be burning 2 CPs a turn for Steady Advance. Not a bad unit. But certainly not a good unit, either.

    Inceptors: ...Back to models with T5 and 3 Wounds. Whilst Inceptors don't get knocked out of the game by the new 2 Damage standard, a major problem with them is that they carry Damage 1 weapons of their own, and upgrading those weapons, turns them into many-shot Plasma weapons, with an even greater chance of killing yourself...Which is a total waste of your T5 and 3 Wounds.

    Storm Speeders - Generally speaking, they're overcosted. Additionally, being a VEHICLE, that's only T6, with 10 Wounds, is basically giving up your Secondary VPs. Each of the following is a separate Datasheet "There is no rules bloat.":
    • Hailstrike: For 150 Points, you have to find a better way to destroy hordes of Infantry.
    • Thunderstrike: The BS2+ is very nice, since you're packing low RoF weapons. But at 175 Points, there are simply better ways to remove Vehicles from your opponent's side of the board that don't involve having a Vehicle with 10 Wounds, only being T6.
    • Hammerstrike: The 'best' version of the Storm Speeder. But when you look at the competition, it's not like there is any. If it wasn't for other, cheaper things in Fast Attack that didn't give away Secondary VPs, this - or the Thunderstrike, depending on match-up - might just be the best in slot. Unfortunately, cheaper things do exist in the Fast slot...And in the Elites slot...And in the Heavy slot.

    Land Speeders - Their amazing speed lends them fantastically towards packing Multi-Meltas. Their main benefit over Attack Bikes, is that they FLY. But, once again, Attack Bikes are CORE, and not Vehicles, either, meaning that you can actually force multiply them pretty hard when you try. Each of the following is a separate Datasheet "There is no rules bloat.":
    • Land Speeder: Cheapest version, by virtue of having only one weapon (Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta). Oddly, the 'vanilla' Land Speeder can be used as a combo piece, giving your WHIRLWINDS +1 to hit, and that's nice. A Squadron of 3 with Multi-Meltas is 'only' 210 Points. And that's a bit of a joke. You could take two, with Multi-Meltas, and still be cheaper than a single Storm Speeder.
    • Tornado: Add another gun (Assault Cannon or Heavy Flamer). Not a great variant since the only weapon that matters on a Land Speeder is the Multi-Melta. However, the Assault Cannon is good in metas where your opponents run a lot of single-wound models that have Invulnerable saves (e.g; Harlequins, Daemons). But a lot of things can do that, too. And you don't neccessarily need a Land Speeder Tornado to do it...Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds will do the same job...And if you took a 'vanilla' Land Speeder, instead, that Whirlwind would even have +1 to hit.
    • Typhoon: ~60 Points less than a Storm Speeder, and does the same job. Could potentially be best in slot...If you weren't getting two Attack Bikes, with Multi-Meltas, for the same cost. Still, a very strong unit, that simply isn't as strong as the 'best' unit in the Fast slot.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-10-31 at 01:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Primaris Space Wolves and Deathwatch Start Collecting! boxes have disappeared.
    If that's because the Combat Patrol boxes are the 9th Ed. replacements for SC! ...That's a real bad sign for new players.

    EDIT: Well, this is Warhammer Weekend, and if you spend money, you get free stuff...So I bought my local store's last remaining copies of the Space Wolves' and Deathwatch SC! boxes. Now I have to hope that GW doesn't **** me and delete Deathwatch Veterans from the Supplement. But, then again, now I have more than enough parts to make three squads of 'vanilla' Company Veterans. Which is a nice use for them, even if Deathwatch removes DW.Vets from the Troops slot (or just, significantly nerfs them).
    Sounds like theyíre still around, and Deathwatch get an interesting variation on the combat doctrines now, allowing them to choose which doctrine applies each round, rather than being stuck Devastator to Tactical to Assault. Seems that the DW thing is Ďflexibilityí.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    I'm being sensible and not buying models i dont have plans to paint or play with immediately, and today that means humming "nearer my god to thee" and saluting as the SC Deathwatch i've been eyeing up for ages disappears below the waves.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    today that means humming "nearer my god to thee" and saluting as the SC Deathwatch i've been eyeing up for ages disappears below the waves.
    I think the writing is on the wall for all SC! boxes at this point.
    So if they've got some good value (they all do, one way or another, that's why they're generally very good with only one or two exceptions), anyone who wants one, should be buying them while they can.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I think the writing is on the wall for all SC! boxes at this point.
    So if they've got some good value (they all do, one way or another, that's why they're generally very good with only one or two exceptions), anyone who wants one, should be buying them while they can.
    I got my 3 Ad Mech ones already, and I had no interest in the Ork one. Sad to see it go though, it was a great box.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    I got curious so I decided to work out how the savings of the SC! And Combat patrol boxes compare, purely on a monetary basis.

    The Deathwatch Start Collecting! Box was, IIRC, £60. It included:
    10-man kill team £45
    Venerable Dreadnought £35
    Captain Artemis £17.50
    Deathwatch sprue £9

    For a total value of £106.50, meaning a discount of £45.50 or ~42.72%.

    The Combat Patrol box costs £85 and includes:
    10 deathwatch intercessors £43
    3 Aggressors £30
    Deathwatch Primaris Apothecary £30.50
    Primaris Lieutenant w/power sword £20
    (note the Deathwatch intercessors and Deathwatch apothecary both include a single Deathwatch upgrade sprue, each at a £1 discount from buying them separately)

    For a total value of £123.5, meaning a discount of £38.5 or ~31.17%.

    So that kinda sucks.



    Oh, completely unrelated, @Cheesegear (and the occasional others), I really appreciate the work you put into the codex guides you keep doing. Even as an utter casual, it's really useful to calibrate my expectations for what, say, 60 tactical marines will accomplish if I decide to field a full firstborn company for fluff reasons:D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrastos42 View Post
    The Combat Patrol box costs £85 and includes:
    10 deathwatch intercessors £43
    3 Aggressors £30
    Deathwatch Primaris Apothecary £30.50
    Primaris Lieutenant w/power sword £20
    I think the more insulting part is what the Primaris Space Wolves box used to be;

    10 Intercercessors
    3 Agressors
    Space Wolf Lieutenant

    ...Oh...So you just threw the Primaris Apothecary in, and raised the price $70 AUD? ...Neat!

    it's really useful to calibrate my expectations for what, say, 60 tactical marines will accomplish if I decide to field a full firstborn company for fluff reasons:D
    Space Marines, Battalion
    Captain; Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Jump Pack - 140 Points*
    Chaplain; Power Fist, Jump Pack - 105 Points

    Tactical Squad (x5); Grav-Cannon, Combi-Grav & Chainsword - 110 Points
    Tactical Squad (x5); Grav-Cannon, Combi-Grav & Chainsword - 110 Points
    Tactical Squad (x5); Grav-Cannon, Combi-Grav & Chainsword - 110 Points
    Tactical Squad (x5); Grav-Cannon, Combi-Grav & Chainsword - 110 Points
    Tactical Squad (x5); Grav-Cannon, Combi-Grav & Chainsword - 110 Points
    Tactical Squad (x5); Grav-Cannon, Combi-Grav & Chainsword - 110 Points

    **Apothecary - 75 Points
    **Company Ancient; Combi-Grav - 85 Points
    *Company Veterans (x5); Combi-Gravs (x5), Storm Shields (x5) - 170 Points**

    Bike Squad (x3); Grav-Guns (x2), Combi-Grav - 120 Points
    Bike Squad (x3); Grav-Guns (x2), Combi-Grav - 120 Points
    Bike Squad (x3); Grav-Guns (x2), Combi-Grav - 120 Points

    Devastators (x5); Grav-Cannons (x3), Heavy Bolter, Armorium Chreub - 135 Points
    Devastators (x5); Grav-Cannons (x3), Missile Launcher, Armorium Chreub - 140 Points
    Devastators (x5); Grav-Cannons (x4) - 130 Points

    Total: 2000 Points

    Reminds me of the 8th Ed. Sororitas list where you literally jam in as many Storm Bolters as you can and kick the **** out of hordes.
    ...If this was a 7th Ed. list, there'd be 10 free Razorbacks with Twin Heavy Bolters...Just sayin'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Stares off into the distance with the muted sound of grav fire and explosions as flashbacks play
    You want to put a Battle Company on the board? Easy. Done. That's what that looks like. It looks almost identical to a list I ran in 7th. It's even 2000 Points on the dot. What else do you want? The only thing missing is the Company Champion.

    It's actually a perfect example of what I've been saying:
    It's not that [X] can't be done; It's that most people don't have what it takes, or don't want to have what it takes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    You want to put a Battle Company on the board? Easy. Done. That's what that looks like. It looks almost identical to a list I ran in 7th. It's even 2000 Points on the dot. What else do you want? The only thing missing is the Company Champion.

    It's actually a perfect example of what I've been saying:
    It's not that [X] can't be done; It's that most people don't have what it takes, or don't want to have what it takes.
    My 7th ed Ad Mech army still mostly works. It's just that Kataphrons aren't as good as the once were so doing so is kinda dumb.

    Plus Onagers got weird nerfs, which makes them annoying to use.
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    Tying into something you said earlier Cheesegear, there's definitely still good Firstborn units. I don't think any of us are denying that. The concern I think being expressed is "how long before the next shoe drops? And if I don't have that unit already from the classic range, should I even risk spending cash on a unit likely to be overshadowed at best by a Primaris-version, or worse, outright have rules written in such a way that its better to retire the unit to the shelf?"

    I'm definitely of the view that at this point, I'd much rather just buy only Primaris for Astartes Armies at this point than risk Codex 9.2, or Codex 10th Edition, or Chapter Approved, changes making a unit I'm still in the process of building not-viable or worse yet: get shuffled into WH Legends and have to constantly ask my opponent "May I please use this unit?" and have it denied for whatever reason.

    So, presuming a New Player, being shown "Check out these cool Primaris models", a player determined to make an All-Primaris force for fluff reasons, or some salty player currently trying to figure out prices to rebuild his army, what's our "Primaris-Only" buyers' guide looking like? any Box-set deals worth getting to quickly get a 500-1000+ army rolling and not feel like you made some terrible mistake?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I think the more insulting part is what the Primaris Space Wolves box used to be;

    10 Intercercessors
    3 Agressors
    Space Wolf Lieutenant

    ...Oh...So you just threw the Primaris Apothecary in, and raised the price $70 AUD? ...Neat!
    >.> Yeah, Still feeling insulted by that. The Space Wolves box is a little better, but not by much. Invictors cost 10 USD more than Aggressors, but Rievers/Hounds of Morkai are pretty awkward at a combat patrol level, given how tight CPs are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    Tying into something you said earlier Cheesegear, there's definitely still good Firstborn units. I don't think any of us are denying that. The concern I think being expressed is "how long before the next shoe drops? And if I don't have that unit already from the classic range, should I even risk spending cash on a unit likely to be overshadowed at best by a Primaris-version, or worse, outright have rules written in such a way that its better to retire the unit to the shelf?"

    I'm definitely of the view that at this point, I'd much rather just buy only Primaris for Astartes Armies at this point than risk Codex 9.2, or Codex 10th Edition, or Chapter Approved, changes making a unit I'm still in the process of building not-viable or worse yet: get shuffled into WH Legends and have to constantly ask my opponent "May I please use this unit?" and have it denied for whatever reason.

    So, presuming a New Player, being shown "Check out these cool Primaris models", a player determined to make an All-Primaris force for fluff reasons, or some salty player currently trying to figure out prices to rebuild his army, what's our "Primaris-Only" buyers' guide looking like? any Box-set deals worth getting to quickly get a 500-1000+ army rolling and not feel like you made some terrible mistake?
    A little tricky at the moment. Losing Know no Fear and SC! Space Wolves* has left Primaris Space Marines without a good starter box. Maybe SC! Vanguard Marines, but Infiltrators and Eliminators are a bit specialized, and the Lieutenant in there is the second worst Phobos HQ (Being slightly better than the Reiver Lieutenant because at least the SC! Lieutenant brought a rifle and a melee weapon with AP).

    *If you can still find either of those boxes, buy them.

    As far as "What is good?" ...

    (Unreleased things in italics)

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    HQ:
    -Captains: Phobos is decent especially if your chapter has a relic to upgrade his gun. Heavy Bolt Rifle is good. Indomitus/Elite Edition/Command Edition Captain is worth considering if your metagame is lousy with mortal wounds
    -Lieutenants: Not as essential if you're not spamming HQs. Indomitus/Recruit Edition Lieutenant has a pretty nice kit, though, and the Space Wolves Battle Leader (Exclusive to the SC! and Combat Patrol boxes) is very solid.
    -Chaplains: If you can find the biker chaplain, buy that.
    -Librarians: Phobos is great
    -Named Characters: I didn't follow their release that closely, but I think they were mostly positively received?

    Troops:
    -Assault Intercessors are best in Assault based chapters (White Scars and Raven Guard stand out for their ability to get them into combat sooner)
    -Standard Intercessors fit provide more warm bodies than heavy intercessors will, while still having rifles with AP, and the option to take a D2 gun.
    -Incursors shine in Assault based chapters that don't have as strong a way to get into assault T1 (Space Wolves and Blood Angels)
    -Infiltrators are mostly used to bubble wrap things you don't want your enemy's reserves getting close too.
    -Heavy Intercessors are T5 W3 troops. That's good.

    Elites:
    -Aggressors aren't quite assault centurions, but they're a lot easier to force multiply, which can make up for that.
    -Paying five points to give your apothecary an extra wound and a heavy pistol isn't a bad deal, either. However, if your opponent is being asinine, Primaris Apothecaries can't become Chief Apothecary or use the Combat Restorative strategem, but are available to Space Wolves. Expect Errata to fix this.
    -Bladeguard Veterans are excellent

    Fast Attack:
    -Outriders have potential in a Sisters/Guard heavy metagame, but are otherwise too specialized vs. Hordes that don't have invulnerable saves.
    -Suppressors are a good choice, but only found in the SC! Vanguard box
    -Invader ATVs are broken at the moment when Apothecaries can bring them back. Expect that to get nerfed. Afterwords, they're just multi-melta delivery systems. Which isn't bad, but eradicators are coming.
    -Storm Speeders are a horrible idea. I haven't called out any other Primaris unit for being bad, so trust me when I say to avoid these unless secondaries get reworked.

    Heavy Support:
    -Eradicators: Everyone's eyeing the nerf hammer hanging over their heads like a sword of damocles. Even once they get their points readjusted, I expect them to have a home in many lists unless GW overcosts them (which might happen, GW being GW)
    -Eliminators kill characters that don't have a specialized bodyguard unit next to them. That's pretty handy.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    Tying into something you said earlier Cheesegear, there's definitely still good Firstborn units. I don't think any of us are denying that. The concern I think being expressed is "how long before the next shoe drops? And if I don't have that unit already from the classic range, should I even risk spending cash on a unit likely to be overshadowed at best by a Primaris-version, or worse, outright have rules written in such a way that its better to retire the unit to the shelf?"
    Hopefully, at least two years, probably three.
    That said, it really does seem like it's in GW's interests to release a new Marine Codex every year.

    I'm definitely of the view that at this point, I'd much rather just buy only Primaris for Astartes Armies at this point than risk Codex 9.2, or Codex 10th Edition, or Chapter Approved
    Me too. Unfortunately I don't think Deathwatch can be viable without Firstborn, and since Imperial Fists took a huge nerf, I'm going to try Deathwatch when they come out. If what I have doesn't work, I can't see myself buying anything for while.

    any Box-set deals worth getting to quickly get a 500-1000+ army rolling and not feel like you made some terrible mistake?
    Not really, and GW is doing their best to get rid of the boxes that do exist for other Factions. GW is currently in the business of whaling to make profit. I think even Conquest has been discontinued...I loved the idea of Conquest Mags, unfortunately, I'm way too late in my collection to need something like that. So, while I love(d) Conquest, it's just not for me. But back when I was 20? At Uni? I would've bought in on the ground floor.

    I can tell you that the Elite Edition is a good deal, but all the models suck. Maybe that's the point?
    The SC! Vanguard box was good...Until everything in it was nerfed - Suppressors weren't nerfed, but the rules of the game, changed, and Suppressors accidentally fit the mould to an extent.

    At this stage I can only hope that GW re-releases Know No Fear, or somehow finds a way to release the Dark Imperium content (especially 'cause DI was the only way to get a Primaris Ancient), which is more difficult than it sounds, because the 'good sprue' (Two Lieutenants, Ancient, and Squad A), was tied to Death Guard models, as well - hence why KNF was the way it was.

    I'm looking at (Australia's) webstore, and even all the easy-to-build (i.e; Cheap) stuff is gone, too. Not that it was good. But it was cheap.


    My current, sad advice is try and find boxes of the SC! Primaris Space Wolves. Even if you have no intention of playing Space Wolves, 10 Intercessors and 3 Aggressors are a good start and are unlikely to be bad anytime soon. But, that box is on its last legs as of yesterday... Good luck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Not really, and GW is doing their best to get rid of the boxes that do exist for other Factions. GW is currently in the business of whaling to make profit. I think even Conquest has been discontinued...I loved the idea of Conquest Mags, unfortunately, I'm way too late in my collection to need something like that. So, while I love(d) Conquest, it's just not for me. But back when I was 20? At Uni? I would've bought in on the ground floor.
    On the Conquest front, theyíre currently doing an AoS version in the UK (Mortal Realms) though there have been various delays to issues due to Covid. Conquest was only ever designed to go for 80 issues, as is Mortal Realms. Iíd expect to see Conquest v2 when Mortal Realms is around issue 60, so a little less than a year from now.
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    I'm struggling to decide whether a Thunderfire Cannon is terrible, or merely okay, after the horrific nerf:
    (S5, AP-1...To S4, AP-)

    Techmarine with Servo-Harness - 85 Points*
    Hurricane Bolter (on Stormraven) - 15 Points**

    * Whilst within 3" of the Cannon, the Gunner can't be targeted by ranged attacks. The Gunner can repair Vehicles, but can't give them +1 to hit.
    ** The most expensive incidence of the Hurricane Bolter. A Gunner is BS2+, so let's go with the most expensive version of it.

    Thunderfire Cannon - 120 Points

    A Hurricane Bolter is Rapid Fire 6, means it has 12 shots under half-range.

    A Thunderfire is Heavy 4D3, Blast. Means it has 8 shots on average, and only against units with 6+ models, it has 12 shots.
    A Thunderfire can see through walls.
    A Thunderfire is Heavy, and thus is AP-1 on Turn 1... But it's only S4, and only deals 1 Damage (But, in fairness, so is a Hurricane).


    Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars (x3) - 51 Points
    ...Well that's upsetting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I'm struggling to decide whether a Thunderfire Cannon is terrible, or merely okay, after the horrific nerf:
    (S5, AP-1...To S4, AP-)

    Techmarine with Servo-Harness - 85 Points*
    Hurricane Bolter (on Stormraven) - 15 Points**

    * Whilst within 3" of the Cannon, the Gunner can't be targeted by ranged attacks. The Gunner can repair Vehicles, but can't give them +1 to hit.
    ** The most expensive incidence of the Hurricane Bolter. A Gunner is BS2+, so let's go with the most expensive version of it.

    Thunderfire Cannon - 120 Points

    A Hurricane Bolter is Rapid Fire 6, means it has 12 shots under half-range.

    A Thunderfire is Heavy 4D3, Blast. Means it has 8 shots on average, and only against units with 6+ models, it has 12 shots.
    A Thunderfire can see through walls.
    A Thunderfire is Heavy, and thus is AP-1 on Turn 1... But it's only S4, and only deals 1 Damage (But, in fairness, so is a Hurricane).


    Heavy Weapons Team (x3); Mortars (x3) - 51 Points
    ...Well that's upsetting.
    The general view I'm gathering around the net is definitely a drop in usefulness on Thunderfires. If you're planning to make good use of the Tremor Shells, sure there's a possible place in your army still for it. There's also obviously the advantage of having another Techmarine outside of the usual Force-Organization slot. But... at the points cost now for the unit, you might just be better off taking another vehicle instead of worrying about having another a Heavy-slot tech marine to babysit one. Or more Eliminators/Eradicators/Grav-Cannon Devastators
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    I'm trying to figure out how someone looks at a Thunderfire and thinks the explosion from it is as powerful as a frag grenade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    I'm trying to figure out how someone looks at a Thunderfire and thinks the explosion from it is as powerful as a frag grenade.
    It's the ol' 'GW Completely Ruins It' play:

    TfC is 99 Points - ridiculous!
    TfC is S5, AP-1 - that's crazy!
    TfC has a Stratagem that can let it shoot twice - OMGWTFBBQ!?

    Remove all three of those good points to make it unplayable.
    There...Fixed?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Thunderfire is Heavy 4D3, Blast. Means it has 8 shots on average, and only against units with 6+ models, it has 12 shots.
    11+ models.

    Against 1-5, it has no minimum on number of shots.
    Agaisnt 6-10, it has a minimum of 3 shots total. But since it's 4d3, it'll never roll less than 3 anyway.
    Against 11+, it always gets max shots.
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