Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Blackhawk748]

This is why the real solution is the mental shift required to choose things based on what you don't mind losing with. "keeping up with the meta" is expensive and pointless and annoying, don't get me wrong, but it's also entirely optional if you're chill.

I didn't keep up with the meta. I built the Ork army I wanted. And lost for 3 straight editions because it was terrible and it made me actively hate the game.

What did I lose to?

Casual Tau Fire Warrior Line
Silver Legion Necrons (very typically without Monolith)
Imperial Guard Armored Fist (hes literally not changed his list since 3rd edition)
MSU Space Marines.

What was my army?

9 KMK Mek Guns
120 Shoota Boys
10 Flash Gits
Grotsnik
Warboss
KFF Big Mek
45 Lootas
20 Tankbustas

Or some variant thereof. Does that look unreasonable? Does that Look weird? No, it looks like a standard Ork list. And it got wrecked. Not just beaten, not some close game, it got blown off the board on a regular basis by Turn 4. That wasn't fun, because I never had a chance.

From about 1/3rd the way into 5th all the way through 7th, the only army I ever had a halfway decent fight with was Necrons. Until 7th and then it was just pure unfiltered awfulness because the power discrepancy was so awful.

3 editions, something like 7 years, of abject ****show is the reason I have an Ad Mech army, and GW got a whopping 120 bucks for that outta me cuz I bought the Start Collecting boxes. Everything else is third party stuff. Then I actually had fun.

7 years of trying to get my Orks to work. Seven. That is the sort of stuff that makes people leave the game, because that is ridiculous. There is no reason your power balancing is so **** that you have entire Editions of armies being so hilariously awful that people can determine the winner in list building. For a company charging as much as GW does for its product, that is unacceptable.

[Cheesegear]

This is why the real solution is the mental shift required to choose things based on what you don't mind losing with. "keeping up with the meta" is expensive and pointless and annoying, don't get me wrong, but it's also entirely optional if you're chill.

You play a game with your friend, and they lose. They then say "Hmm...Why would I lose? I should improve my army."
Your friend then goes out to the local GW to buy a new unit or two. After having lost a game, they know what they did, and why they lost.
They buy one or two extra units that they think will win them games.
They do.
You are now behind your friend.
Now that your friend has bought new models and is winning games, the other guy you know buys new models, too, to keep up.
Now there are two armies better than yours.
The third guy who is just...'Around', sees what people are doing, and he also goes out and buys new units. But now the first guy has to buy a different unit to deal with that one, and the second guy has to swap his army around, realising that the unit he just bought less than two weeks ago, is surpassed and maybe he should put it back on his shelf, and now he needs to go out and buy something else to replace it.
You are now behind all the three people you know... Or however big your personal circle of friends is.

That's all it takes.
It doesn't have to be about following the meta. It is, and always has been, about chasing your meta.
Most people, have the desire to be good at, and/or improve at, the things they like doing.

If you're in a meta that grows and evolves as it plays games, because the players in it, learn and evolve, then congratulations, you're in a changing meta-game, and you need to keep up or fall behind. That's the arms race. All's it takes is the desire to improve, and the means to do so. One player in the group can ruin it for everyone. It doesn't take much to start an arms race. At some point, if the players can read good, your meta, eventually resembles the meta, because the rules of the game are the same for everyone regardless of where they are.
...Then, after everyone in your meta has done an arms race, GW nerfs everything that's good and now all the players have to start the cycle again - some of them might be mad about that.

If you're in a stale meta where no-one buys anything, then you don't have to, either. Win or lose games at your leisure because you probably have an almost even chance because your opponents - and their armies - will almost always be relatively the same. You don't have to do anything, because your opponents aren't, either.

[LansXero]

Counterpoint: a game that requires constant change is a bad game.

There are no good or bad games. Or rather, the distinction is academic and worthless. There are succesful games, as in, games that get played, and failed games, as in, games that get ignored save for a few dwindling niches, if at all. There is no objective parameter for quality, and much less for 'fun'.

The existence of a "meta-game" that requires continuous expenditure of time and money is a bad thing.

For whom? Certainly not for GW's shareholders, nor your local stores, nor the people who get a kick out of buying new stuff. Inflated margins aside, the core concept of a sustainable business model is to keep people buying stuff, and as player base isnt infinite, then product offerings have to grow as well. Thats what finances art, setting, risky side-games, community programs, etc. In GW's case obviously a couple private jets and gold plated yatchs too, but thats a numbers issue, not a core design issue.

Chess has no metagame

Has no resell value either. I can buy a magnetic set made in China for less than a beer's cost. Fancy artsy sets might be expensive but thats artisan value not game value.

The existence of a metagame is a symptom of a game being bad.

EVERYTHING has a metagame. Relationships, work interviews, food, poker, chess. Everything with options has a comparative slide of more desireable / more often picked options and less desireable / less often picked ones. Thats all a metagames is. Chess is absurdly competitive at the higher levels, with a ton of math and probability involved; same with Poker and board games. It'll vary by region, by competitor, by experience level, but it exists. As any 'meta' narrative, its simply distilled preferences. People prefer things that work.

The choices you make during a game, should matter far more than any choices made between games

Why? I mean thats your preference, but what makes one preferable to the other? Take sports for example, you might think its all chaotic and random due to how individual performance will vary hugely from game to game, but even there you have the team you have, the strat you have, the rehearsed plays you have. Take soccer for example, your players wont grow a few inches taller on the spot just because the other guy decided to focus on aerial play; your 4-3-3 scheme might be outdated and obsolete because the other guy's laterales are just too fast or part of a golden generation; etc. Meta decisions exist everywhere around you, in plenty of tremendously succesful games, and in many other parallel activities. So why is it suddenly a bad thing?

Buy what you want. Proxy what you want.
That's the smartest move. You will never worry about anything you don't have, getting buffed, and you'll never worry about what you have, getting nerfed.

To an extent, this is why we treat WYSIWYG as cancer in our store. Thats why we allow printed pdfs and keep promoting battlescribe, 1d4chan and hardware store primer.

A game is only good if it gets played. Playing gets you sales, sales make it worth the shelf space, your time, your investment. Playing gives customers a feeling of usefulness off parting with their hard earned cash. We still sell books, because some customers apreciate their qualities. The artwork, the independence from electronics, whatever. But we try and keep the game sustainable. Pushing crap on whales gets you buyer's regret sooner or later, but steering a casual away from a trap choice into a viable army gets you a loyal customer for life.

There is a lot that stores could do to curtail predatory / unhealthy practices, both from excessive tryhardism WAAC, and also to motivate or facilitate the inclussion of the everbusy / uberpassive into communities. But that takes work and in my experience store owners own stores precisely because they are allergic to having to do work.

[Brookshw]

snip

So point of clarification please, are you presuming these new models provide superior ways of winning, or alternative ways of winning? One is good design, the other, not. (Of course, between letting people edit their malestrom decks, clearly superior secondaries, GW seems to be empowering, if not encouraging, one side of the coin).

[Forum Explorer]

I didn't keep up with the meta. I built the Ork army I wanted. And lost for 3 straight editions because it was terrible and it made me actively hate the game.

What did I lose to?

Casual Tau Fire Warrior Line
Silver Legion Necrons (very typically without Monolith)
Imperial Guard Armored Fist (hes literally not changed his list since 3rd edition)
MSU Space Marines.

What was my army?

9 KMK Mek Guns
120 Shoota Boys
10 Flash Gits
Grotsnik
Warboss
KFF Big Mek
45 Lootas
20 Tankbustas

Or some variant thereof. Does that look unreasonable? Does that Look weird? No, it looks like a standard Ork list. And it got wrecked. Not just beaten, not some close game, it got blown off the board on a regular basis by Turn 4. That wasn't fun, because I never had a chance.

From about 1/3rd the way into 5th all the way through 7th, the only army I ever had a halfway decent fight with was Necrons. Until 7th and then it was just pure unfiltered awfulness because the power discrepancy was so awful.

3 editions, something like 7 years, of abject ****show is the reason I have an Ad Mech army, and GW got a whopping 120 bucks for that outta me cuz I bought the Start Collecting boxes. Everything else is third party stuff. Then I actually had fun.

7 years of trying to get my Orks to work. Seven. That is the sort of stuff that makes people leave the game, because that is ridiculous. There is no reason your power balancing is so **** that you have entire Editions of armies being so hilariously awful that people can determine the winner in list building. For a company charging as much as GW does for its product, that is unacceptable.

See I agree that those situations are awful. The game shouldn't be so unbalanced that entire factions are just unplayable altogether. 8th was the best for this. The gap between the weakest factions and strongest factions wasn't so large to be insurmountable. Some armies had trouble at the highest competitive level, but even then, they typically had a trick or two they could play. The multiple games modes helped with that.

9th seems to be much poorer designed in comparison. We've got one game mode (8th edition NOVA basically), and the meta has been stale because for the last 6th months it has been nothing but Space Marines. I still cannot fathom why they thought it was a good idea to front load Space Marines and nearly nothing but Space Marines for the first seven months of 9th.

[LansXero]

Oddly enough, thats a pretty solid basis for a decent 8E orky list :v

[Blackhawk748]

See I agree that those situations are awful. The game shouldn't be so unbalanced that entire factions are just unplayable altogether. 8th was the best for this. The gap between the weakest factions and strongest factions wasn't so large to be insurmountable. Some armies had trouble at the highest competitive level, but even then, they typically had a trick or two they could play. The multiple games modes helped with that.

9th seems to be much poorer designed in comparison. We've got one game mode (8th edition NOVA basically), and the meta has been stale because for the last 6th months it has been nothing but Space Marines. I still cannot fathom why they thought it was a good idea to front load Space Marines and nearly nothing but Space Marines for the first seven months of 9th.

8th ed was probably the closest to proper parity 40k has ever come. Necrons weren't doing so hot and Tau were in a really, really weird place but everyone else was generally fine with multiple viable lists.

Now? Now is awful.

Oddly enough, thats a pretty solid basis for a decent 8E orky list :v

Yes. Yes it was. I just chucked all the Lootas and Tankbustas for Buggies and Kommandoes.

[LansXero]

Now? Now is awful.

But now you get Crusade! In the MAIN RULEBOOK! So its obviously best.

[9mm]

Chess has no metagame.

LOL

or to be specific the game has been mined and optimized so completely that you literally need to be the one of the best in the world and have computer to run simulations before the metagame of what chess strategy to use when actually becomes a thing again.

Now? Now is awful.

welcome to every edition change ever.

[LansXero]

ION: Some Aussie tournament just finished and the winner is... possesed spam. Top places go to orks, Grey Knights, Black Templars and an Aeldari list, somehow.

Officially this proves... that australian meta is super weird.

Spoiler: Adelaide ITC Open results

Show

[Cheesegear]

EVERYTHING has a metagame.
[...]
Why? I mean thats your preference, but what makes one preferable to the other? Take sports for example...

You get the best player(s) for the amount of money you can afford.
...Who the best players are can be figured out from nerds who do stats for a living. And then there's a Draft, where losing teams get a rubber-band mechanic that allows them first picks. This means that good players go to bad teams, sometimes. And you need to know which player you're going to pick if they get Drafted, before it's your turn to pick.
And then you try and stay under the points limit I mean salary cap.
If you ****ed up at some point, you try and trade your players to other teams for their players. Sometimes, what you really want to do is trade away a player who's costing you too much, 'cause these days they're underperforming, and if you can drop that player, you go back under the salary cap. The best meta-play is to have that player do something stupid off-field, in their personal lives, that way you can just fire them, but that's if the dice go your way. This potentially gets you another 2 or 3 rookies who might be good, but can't negotiate for the high points cost pay scale yet.

Then, with the players you've got from building your Roster, you start trying to put together army lists Teams, and who and who doesn't go on the bench. When you know your players are getting tired, or flagging, you have to know when to switch in your bench, because the other team might be dominating you, and you might not be able to afford switching out one of your better players, even if they're tired...

...And I haven't even decided what sport I'm talking about, yet. Managing - and/or Coaching - is hard.

[Wraith]

Top places go to orks, Grey Knights, Black Templars and an Aeldari list, somehow.

4th Place - Luke Pearce: "The Normal Black Templars"
[EDIT] 'The Normal Blokes' is the team name apparently, I may have jumped the gun a teeny bit.. n/m

Normal!?! Goddamn you, you monster tell me your secrets!?!

[EDIT: *Googles 'Luke Pearce The Normal Black Templars 2021*
Results: 'There aren't many great results for your search, did you mean List of incidents of Cannibalism?

....I... don't even know... Did I? I mean, it sound like it could be the Australian meta....

[EDIT-EDIT] Seriously though, which event was this? The only one I can find in the last few days was the Perth GT which took place on the 16th, and their results were:

1st: Mytch Burne (Slaanesh Daemons + Emperor's Children - big block of Noise marines backing up two tooled up Keepers)
2nd: Dave Horne (Aeldari - Lots of Harlequins and an Outrider of 21 Drukhari Reavers)
3rd: Jordan Berresford (Sisters of Battle + Outriders of Death Korps Death Riders, an increasingly popular build which seems ot have earned the disgraceful nickname of the 'Death Korp Pony Club')
4th: Ben Leeper (Tyranids - 3 Lictors and 60 (!) Ravenors, and change)

Top 8 Included Black Templars, Necrons, Daemons (a wonky Slaanesh/Tzeentch/Nurgle mix headed by Be'lakor) and Aeldari again (Bikes and Boats this time). I mean, it's still a pretty eclectic collection of armies, but nothing about Grey Knights or the rest...?

[Avaris]

The event is here, not sure where you’d find the lists though: https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/02yq55bc (I believe there’ll be a Goonhammer report on the event in a few days)

Edit to add: there was also a three round invitational masters event run at the same place. I struggle to believe that someone invited to such a thing failed to score 0 points in every game though... https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/tufrh7l5

Relatedly, people might want to look up the Las Vegas Nopen: a load of streamers are doing an online knock out tournament where each round has the same lists but different players, i.e. in round 1 there are 8 games played by streamers, then each winning list is passed to another 4 pairs of players so they can play with it in person for the next stream: https://www.goonhammer.com/the-las-v...list-previews/

[LansXero]

[EDIT-EDIT] Seriously though, which event was this?

Adelaide Uprising Open; thats in AUS right?

Ben Leeper (Tyranids - 3 Lictors and 60 (!) Ravenors, and change)

Meme lists with hard spam; the 2nd place of the other event fielded 60 possessed :v.

Welcome to Fun'n'Interactive edition, where scoring is so messed up nothing makes sense anymore.

You get the best player(s) for the amount of money you can afford.
...Who the best players are can be figured out from nerds who do stats for a living. (..) Managing - and/or Coaching - is hard.

And you already failed. Who the best players are is only tangentially paired with results / performance. Marketability is at least half the point of a hire, specially the high profile ones. Thats why bad boys / drama magnets keep being signed, they keep making news which keeps fans invested which keeps merchandise and tickets sales rising. If he beds someone famous, all the better, you're guaranteed tabloid covers and free advertising.

Then of course you have team interactions. You'll often see older / underperforming players being retained because they make the team 'click'. They are the historic leader / were part of a golden generation / are super rich and can take the rookies on absurd excess-filled escapades, etc. This can make or break the team, so its a large factor nowadays.

Salary caps thus aren't tied to results / performance. Here we have a modern legend about Cienciano's 2000 team: A soccer club from a rural city, Cuzco, made up of has-beens and rejects. Straight out of those hallmark baseball movies, but with soccer instead. You have the former pro turned family man, the bad boy who has seen better days, the promising young star who drank his way to unemployment, the current pro in his goodbye tour due to injuries and age, etc.

That mishmash team went on to win both local championships back to back, facing teams where their salaries combined didnt match the top earner of the other team :v. And then through that went on to play in Sudamericana, facing pro teams all over South America... and winning. They played the finals vs Boca Junior; a large, famous, super rich argentina club. If you sold the entire Cienciano team plus their stadium you'll afford Boca's salary for... a month :v. It had players who were on the rise, alongside those with more than one world cup behind them.

And Cienciano won. It was a 3 day national holiday, because of the sheer impossibility of it all and its been used as a motivational lesson here since then. Forget David vs Goliath, we have our own modern day fairy tale.

Except... it isn't. That club doesn't exist anymore. Half that team retired right after, and no matter how much they won networks still offered crap for their tv rights. So the club folded and decided to cut their losses. Even after all that, what really mattered was advertising money and sponsorship contracts.

[Cheesegear]

Spoiler: 8th. Aeldari

Show

Prophets of Flesh, Patrol
Haemonculus; Electro Whip, Hexrifle

Wracks (x20); Ossefactors (x2), Hexrifle
Wracks (x20); Ossefactors (x2), Hexrifle
Wracks (x20); Ossefactors (x2), Hexrifle

Scourges (x5); Shredders (x4)
Scourges (x5); Shredders (x4)

The Soaring Spite: Serpent's Blood, Battalion
Shadowseer; Twilight Pathways, Veil of Illusision, Webway Dance
(W) Troupe Master; Choreographer of War, Darkness' Bite, Fusion Pistol, Skystrider, Pivotal Role, The Twilight Fang

Troupe (x5); Fusion Pistols (x5), Blade (x1), Caresses
Troupe (x5); Fusion Pistols (x5), Blade (x1), Caresses
Troupe (x5); Fusion Pistols (x5), Blade (x1), Caresses
Troupe (x5); Fusion Pistols (x5), Blade (x1), Caresses
Troupe (x5); Blade (x1), Caresses
Troupe (x8); Caresses

Starweaver
Starweaver
Starweaver
Starweaver

Spoiler: 7th. Celestine & Cawl

Show

Bloody Rose, Patrol
(W) Canoness; Inferno Pistol, Benifience
Celestine

Battle Sisters; Heavy Bolter, Simulacrum

Repentia (x9)
Repentia (x9)

Mortifiers (x4)

Sororitas Rhino

Mars, Patrol
Bellisarius Cawl

Kataphron Destroyers (x3); Plasma Culverins

Cybernetica Datasmith; Power Fist

Robots (x6); Heavy Phosphor Blasters (x18)

Onager Dunecrawler; Neutron Laser

Spoiler: 6. Harlequins

Show

Soaring Spite, Battalion
Shadowseer; Shield From Harm, Pivotal Role, The Shadowstone, Twilight Pathways, Veil of Illusion, Veil of Tears
(W) Troupe Master; Fusion Pistol, Choreographer of War, Skystrider, Twilight Fang
Troupe Master; Fusion Pistol

Troupe (x10); Fusion Pistols (x3), Blades (x2)
Troupe (x10); Fusion Pistols (x3), Blades (x2)
Troupe (x10); Fusion Pistols (x2), Blades (x2)
Troupe (x5); Fusion Pistols (x5), Blade (x1)
Troupe (x5); Fusion Pistols (x5), Blade (x1)
Troupe (x5); Fusion Pistols (x5), Blade (x1)

Death Jester; Humbling Cruelty
Solitaire; Chromatic Rush

Skyweavers (x3); Haywire Cannons, Zephyrglaives
Skyweavers (x2); Haywire Cannons, Zephyrglaives
Skyweavers (x2); Haywire Cannons, Zephyrglaives

Starweaver
Starweaver
Starweaver

Spoiler: 5. Orks

Show

Deathskulls, Outrider
(W) Warboss on Bike; Killsaw, Brutal But Kunnin', Super Cybork Body, Da Biggest Boss

Tankbustas (x11); Bomb Squig

Shokk Jump Dragastas (x3); Gyroscope Whirlgigs
Mega Trakk Scrapjets (x3)
Mega Trakk Scrapjets (x3)
Deff Kopta
Deff Kopta

Bonebreaker; Deff Rolla
Gunwagon; Big Shootas (x4), Da Boomer

Burna Bommer

Trukk

...This is the list I've been talking about.

Spoiler: 4. Black Templars

Show

Black Templars, Vanguard
Chaplain Grimaldus; Exhortation of Rage, Canticle of Hate
Primaris Chaplain on Bike; Divine Protection, Fervent Acclamation, Ancient Breviary, Master of Sanctity

Redemptor Dreadnought; Macro Plasma Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Redemptor Dreadnought; Macro Plasma Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Terminator Assault Squad (x6); Lightning Claws (x3), Thunder Hammer & Storm Shields (x3), Teleport Homer
Vanguard Veterans (x9); Power Fists (x3), Storm Shields (x9), Jump Packs
Vanguard Veterans (x9); Power Fists (x5), Storm Shields (x9), Jump Packs

Inceptors (x3); Plasma Exterminators (x2)

Black Templars, Patrol
Captain on Bike; Chapter Master, Master of the Codex, Teeth of Terra
Lieutenant in Reiver Armour; Rites of War, Crusader's Helm

Infiltrators (x5)

(W) Primaris Apothecary; Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer

Spoiler: 3. Grey Knights

Show

Grey Knights, Battalion
(W) Librarian; Warp Shaping, Armoured Resilience, Empyrean Domination, Lore Master, Artisan Nullifier Matrix
Chaplain; Projection, Focus, Edict Imperator, Sanctic Shard

Strike Knights (x5); Halberds (x5), Gate of Infinity
Strike Knights (x5); Halberds (x5), Vortex of Doom
Terminators (x10); Halberds (x6), Staves (x4)

Paladins (x10); Staves (x5), Halberds (x5), Psycannons (x4), Gate of Infinity
Purifiers (x8); Staves (x8), Sanctuary
Servitors (x4)

Purgators; Psilencers (x4), Halberd, Astral Aim
Purgators; Psilencers (x4), Halberd, Gate of Infinity

Rhino

Spoiler: 2. Chaos

Show

Word Bearers, Battalion
(W) Dark Apostle; Union, Dark Council, Benediction of Darkness, Epistle of Lorgar, Mark of Khorne, Soultearer Portent, Wrathful Entreaty
Master of Possession; Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Mark of Tzeentch, Mutated Invigortation, Malefic Tome
Sorcerer; Baleful Icon, Delightful Agonies, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime

Chaos Cultists (x10); Khorne
Chaos Cultists (x10); Khorne
Chaos Cultists (x10); Khorne

Possessed (x20); Icon of Excess, Slaanesh
Possessed (x20); Icon of Excess, Slaanesh
Possessed (x20); Icon of Excess, Slaanesh

Slaanesh, Patrol
Syll'Esske; Delightful Agonies, Hysterical Frenzy

Daemonettes (x10); Instrument

Spoiler: 1. Chaos

Show

Daemons, Patrol
Lord of Change; Exalted, Aura of Mutibility, Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Impossible Robe, Incorporeal Form

Nurglings (x3)

Beasts of Nurgle (x5)
Beasts of Nurgle (x5)

Slaanesh Daemons, Patrol
Keeper of Secrets; Exalted, Blessing of the Dark Prince, Shining Aegis
Keeper of Secrets; Exalted, Shining Aegis, Hysterical Frenzy, Symphony of Pain

Daemonettes (x10)

Emperor's Children, Patrol
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour; Prescience, Delightful Agonies

Cultists (x10); Autoguns

Terminators (x10); Lightning Claws (x10), Reaper Autocannons (x2), Icon of Excess, Slaanesh
Terminators (x10); Lightning Claws (x10), Reaper Autocannons (x2), Icon of Excess, Slaanesh

...Yep. That's a tournament.

[Wraith]

Meme lists with hard spam; the 2nd place of the other event fielded 60 possessed :v.

Nonsense; EVERYONE knows that MSU is the way to go in 9th edition, you must have read it wrong.

Welcome to Fun'n'Interactive edition, where scoring is so messed up nothing makes sense anymore.

I have to admit, even though it took me a while to figure out how it worked, I'm down for it.

Not just because it's Tyranids - for the last 5 editions I've been quietly cheering on their small victories as unloved underdogs, and because at one point *I* wanted to run a Ravenor-spam list because I just think they're cool - but because it means we're still in the early experimental stage of the game where stupid lists can go to a tournament and gank the so-called top tier ones just by being too stupid to figure out. It's always my favourite part of any new edition.

===

The Black Templars list that Cheese has found is more or less the same as the Perth GT, with the exception that one uses Helbrecht and the other uses Grimaldus and a slightly different balance of Terminators-to-Vanguard Veterans. This is super interesting to me because I own all of those models in both comps, with the exception of the Bikes who are easily arranged.

Shame about the Grey Knights, though - it's almost exactly the OPPOSITE of the list that I own, which is all Interceptors and Dreadknights for a super-alpha-strike. Still, I do love some Terminators and I have plenty that people kept telling me were bad and terrible for the last two editions....

Again maybe the Australia meta is just weird, and I'm slightly concerned how many top armies at both events used the exact same sort of "Hammer and Anvil" approach, but it gives me some hope nonetheless.

[Keraunograf]

Not just because it's Tyranids - for the last 5 editions I've been quietly cheering on their small victories as unloved underdogs, and because at one point *I* wanted to run a Ravenor-spam list because I just think they're cool - but because it means we're still in the early experimental stage of the game where stupid lists can go to a tournament and gank the so-called top tier ones just by being too stupid to figure out. It's always my favourite part of any new edition.

I think people are looking at the wrong list?

Spoiler

Show

Tyranid Battalion – Hive Fleet Jormungandr

HQ

The Swarmlord w/ Powers: Catalyst, Onslaught – 270 points, 14 PL

Malanthrope w/ Warlord, WT: Insidious Threat, Relic: The Ymgarl Factor – 150 points, 8PL

Troops

30 Termagaunts (150) w/ Devourers (60) – 210 points, 9PL

3 Tyranid Warriors (51) w/ 2 Scything Talons (0), Adrenal Glands (3) – 54 points, 4 PL

3 Tyranid Warriors (51) w/ 2 Scything Talons (0), Adrenal Glands (3) – 54 points, 4 PL

10 Hormagaunts – 60 points, 3PL

3 Ripper Swarms – 36 points, 2PL

Elites

Maleceptor w/ Power: Lurking Maws – 170 points, 9PL

Lictor – 37 points, 2PL

Lictor – 37 points, 2PL

Lictor – 37 points, 2PL

Fast Attack

3 Raveners (60) w/ 2 Scything Talons (0) – 60 points, 3PL

Heavy Support

Barbed Heirodule w/ Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis (Progeny of the Hive -1 CP) – 275 points, 14 PL

Barbed Heiordule – 275 points, 14PL

Barbed Heiordule – 275 points, 14PL

Total Points: 2000

This is what I found for that list, which is only running 3 Raveners so that it can use the Jormungandr stratagem to stick the Devilgaunts in the tunnel with them. They're a 60 point drop pod for your Gaunts, not Ravener spam. The big thing in the list is the Swarmlord +3 Barbed Heirodules, which while neat is not super unexpected. The new Heirodules were for sure gonna see play.

EDIT: Also a note you can't possibly bring more than 27 Raveners even if you wanted to, since they're in squads of 9 and rule of 3...

[Wraith]

3 Raveners (60) w/ 2 Scything Talons (0) – 60 points, 3PL

...That's 3 individual Ravenors for 60 points, isn't it? And not 3 SQUADS of Ravenors - (60) minis in total - as I first read?

That's what I get for speed-reading, badly.

[Cheesegear]

Nonsense; EVERYONE knows that MSU is the way to go in 9th edition, you must have read it wrong.

Well, I know Astartes armies are using Combat Squads where they have to.
And I know that Possessed spam is all about stacking as many buffs on as many models as possible. 20-man units means that the effective buffs, are more effective.

Again maybe the Australia meta is just weird...

I don't think so.
Everything I read makes complete sense...

and I'm slightly concerned how many top armies at both events used the exact same sort of "Hammer and Anvil" approach

...Because Factions don't win games; Playstyles, do. Every Faction in 9th Ed. is fine - even Thousand Sons, Grey Knights and Astra Militarum.

The problem in 9th Ed. is mono-builds. Not a 'Faction Tier List'. When 'Chaos' is 20 Terminators and 3 Exalted Daemons, something's gone wrong.
Another trend in the very-high-tier meta is basically exactly what people both predicted and feared would happen; 90% of Troops are garbage, because Objective Secured doesn't mean anything in 9th Ed., so why take Troops?

[Renegade Paladin]

Speaking of the Australian meta, evidently someone by the pseudonymous name of "Roger Miller" organized several 60 man GTs in an Aboriginal village in the Northern Territory. Every person registered to the events was inactive in BCP's system except one - the person who was reported to have won them all. Public Facebook post from Aushammer detailing the ITC's proceedings in investigating.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Imperial Fists
The Sons of Dorn

Spoiler: Abilities

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An IMPERIAL FISTS Detachment gains the following:
Chapter Tactics - Siege Masters: Your models ignore Light Cover when making ranged attacks. Additionally, 'Bolt'-weapons make an additional hit - not an attack - when they roll a '6' to hit.

An IMPERIAL FISTS Army gains the following:
Legacy of Dorn: When the Devastator Doctrine is active, your Heavy weapons, with a Strength of 7+, deal +1 Damage vs. VEHICLES and BUILDINGS

...This is trash. Bolt weapons cap out at S5, which means that they're non-compatible with the Imperial Fists' bonus to Devastator Doctrine. Second, in order to even get that bonus, you have to jump through a few hoops, it's only good on Turn 1, and it's only good if your opponent has spammed VEHICLES that have a lot of wounds where that extra damage might come into play. But with the way the meta is, that's...Unlikely. Which means that it isn't worth playing an Imperial Fists' army - not really - and you're much better off taking a single Detachment of them to spam S5-Bolt Weapons in, and then use a second Detachment with a strong Melee component (e.g; Space Wolves or White Scars).

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Successor Tactics
The key to playing Imperial Fists Successors is...Don't. The extra hits off of S5-Bolt weapons is better than anything in the Successor Tactics list, and as previously mentioned, the Devastator Doctrine bonus isn't even worth playing to. But, if you must, remember that the following could also be played with any other Chapter, with better results:

- Master Artisans. If you're gonna run high-strength weapons, they're usually only one or two shots each, they're not Bolt weapons, which means that every hit needs to count.
- Stealthy. Shoot those Heavy weapons from way back in your own DZ so you get the benefits of Light Cover even when you're not in Cover.

---

Crimson Fists
Imperial Fists get to share their Supplement with a pseudo-Successor Chapter that steals their page space. CRIMSON FISTS are not IMPERIAL FISTS, additionally, 'Your Successor' also aren't CRIMSON FISTS.

Chapter Tactics - No Matter the Odds: When one of your units makes a ranged attack against a unit with at least 5 more models than your unit, your unit gains +1 to hit. VEHICLES count as exactly 5 models, both ways. So, if you have a VEHICLE, it gains +1 to hit if the enemy unit has 10+ models in it. If you're shooting at a VEHICLE, you're unlikely to get anything. Additionally, 'Bolt'-weapons make an additional hit - not an attack - when they roll a '6' to hit.

Due to the way that the meta is (check postdate and last edited), this Chapter Tactic is near worthless. Just play Imperial Fists.

---

Black Templars are not an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter. For reasons. That's actually probably a good thing. 'Cause Imperial Fists are among the worst Space Marine Chapters you can play, whereas Black Templars, are not.

Spoiler: Army List Options

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Warlord Traits
Imperial Fists Successors - not Crimson Fists - are IMPERIAL FISTS.

1. Your Warlord has +1 to wound vs. VEHICLES and BUILDINGS...Worthless. This should be unit buff. It isn't.
2. Your Warlord can't be wounded on less than a 4+. This can be extremely useful if your Warlord is T5.
3. Once per battle, if your Warlord doesn't move, at the end of your turn, do a terrible version of the Orbital Bombardment Stratagem that is more random and more terrible.
4. Your Warlord takes half Damage (round up) from attacks. However, cannot Fall Back.
5. Aura 6". IMPERIAL FISTS CORE units (and not Characters) in cover, ignore the AP of AP-1 weapons. It's so ****ing weird that your Warlord can't even affect himself with this ability. Terrible.
6. At the start of the battle, gain +D3 CPs. Very handy.

Captain Lysander has #2.
Tor Garadon has #1.

Crimson Fists Warlord Traits
1. The first time your Warlord is destroyed, instead of using any ability that triggers off of being destroyed (e.g; Astartes Banner, Only in Death Does Duty End, etc.), you can try to roll a 4+. If you do, set up your Warlord as close to where he was destroyed as possible, that is more than 1" away from enemy models with D3 wounds left. This can be useful because it takes your model out of Engagement Range of enemy units. But also, you trade off your chance to use Only in Death Does Duty End, for a chance to fail the roll to get back up. A very terrible use of your Warlord Trait that might not even work. Avoid.
2. Your Warlord gains +D3 Attacks if there are 5+ enemy models within 6". Unfortunately, since this is Melee attacks, it doesn't stack with your Chapter Tactics, making it...Not good. Unlike before, this ability does not have the stipulation about enemy VEHICLES - they only count as 1 model.
3. Aura 6". CRIMSON FISTS CORE and CRIMSON FISTS CHARACTERS gain Objective Secured. If a unit or model already has this ability, then each model counts as two models. Due to the second part of this Trait, it is straight up better than Rites of War from the Codex.

Pedro Kantor has #3. The best one.

---

Relics of the Fists
Only IMPERIAL FISTS can choose these Relics, or they can choose Special-Issue Wargear. Crimson Fists can only choose their specific Relics, or, from Special-Issue Wargear.

The Spartean. [Bolt Pistol or Heavy Bolt Pistol]. 2 Shots, AP-3 and deals 2 Damage a pop. Additionally, ignores Look Out, Sir! Double-tapping an enemy CHARACTER seems like a nice idea. Especially if you accidentally roll a '6' to get that extra hit. Unfortunately, it's still using your Relic slot to pick up a Pistol. Don't use.

The Banner of Stagnada. ANCIENT. Aura 6". IMPERIAL FISTS CORE and IMPERIAL FISTS CHARACTERS gain +1 to hit with Melee attacks...Uhh...You do know what Imperial Fists' Chapter Tactics are, don't you?

The Eye of Hypnoth. Aura 6". You're a LIEUTENANT, Harry! Not great. Just take a Lieutenant.

The Bones of Osrak. LIBRARIAN. Re-roll Psychic tests when you manifest from the Geokinesis Discpline.

Duty's Burden. CRIMSON FISTS [M-C Auto- or Stalker- Bolt Rifle]. It's a Heavy Bolter, with Rapid Fire 2, and AP-2. As far as Crimson Fists go, giving your Primaris Captain, or Primaris Lieutenant a powerful Relic like this isn't actually a bad idea. Unfortunately, Captains don't affect themselves, so can't be re-rolling 1s into 6s to get those free hits.

Fist of Vengeance. CRIMSON FISTS [Power Fist]. It's an AP-3 Thunder Hammer that doesn't have negs to hit. Try and stack it with the Warlord Trait that gives you extra Attacks.

Special-Issue Wargear
Imperial Fists and Successors can choose from the following when selecting Relics:

Adamantine Mantle. Ignore Wounds 5+. Pretty decent. Only because you're Imperial Fists. The idea is to stack it with one or both the #2 and #4 Warlord Traits, then find a way to get T5. This is possible. Your Warlord wont die for a while.

Artificer Armour. 2+ Save and 5+ Invulnerable is only really useful for Librarians, and to a lesser extent, Techmarines.

Master-Crafted Weapon. Mostly for Centurion Sergeants via Gift of the Phalanx.

Digital Weapons. Whenever your model makes a Melee attack, make an extra attack. If it hits, deal a Mortal Wound.

Fist of Terra. [Power Fist]. It doesn't have negs to hit, and it gives an additional attack. Very good. Actually better than the Fist of Vengeance.

Gatebreaker Bolts. [Bolt weapon]. The model gains an alternate fire; Roll one attack, if it hits, make D3 wound rolls, instead of just one. The wounds have AP-5 and deal 1 Damage. Not a great special ammo. AP-5 is...Nice? But you're dealing a random amount of wounds that are also rolled randomly - and you still have to hit. There are just too many points of failure. It dealing 1 Damage, is also a big problem, because anything that already shoots a single shot, deals more than 1 Damage, so...What's this even for?

Auric Aquila. 4+ Invulnerable save, and, Ignore Psychic phase Mortal Wounds (5+). The wording does allow your Librarian to potentially ignore Perils of the Warp wounds, as they are Mortal Wounds dealt during the Psychic phase. Also, your Librarian gets an Invulnerable, and that's not nothing. It's...Okay.

Warden's Cuirass. +1 Wound. No.

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Geokinesis Discpline
1. WC6, Aura 12". Enemy units have -2 to Charge. Pretty solid.
2. WC6, 18". Target an enemy unit wholly in or on a terrain piece, or target one BUILDING. Roll nine 5+ - +1 vs. a BUILDING - and deal an amount of Mortal Wounds equal to the successes. Ideally, you'll get an average of 3 Mortal Wounds, making it already better than Smite, and you have a potential to deal nine Mortal Wounds, which is incredibly strong...Hence the stipulation that you have to target a unit inside a terrain piece. But you can target units that FLY, and AIRCRAFT, which is odd. Though, given the playstyle of the game, good units are typically found in terrain pieces. You can **** up CHARACTERS bad with this Power. This Power is legitimately one of the few good things Imperial Fists have access to. It will never not be used many times in a game.
3. WC6, 18". Select a point on the board and roll a 4+ for each enemy unit within 6", and deal a Mortal Wound. It's like Orbital Bombardment but not as good, and doesn't cost CPs.
4. WC4, 12". Target IMPERIAL FISTS INFANTRY or BIKER model regains D3 wounds. It's like a ranged Apothecary.
5. WC5, Self. Gain +2S and +2T until your next Psychic phase. Phobos Librarians in Melee on Turn 1, are pretty good.
6. WC6, 18". Roll 2d6 vs. target non-FLY enemy unit. If you roll lower than their Movement, deal a Mortal Wound. If you roll equal to their Movement, D3 Mortal Wounds. If you roll greater than their Movement, the target unit takes 3 Mortal Wounds.

Spoiler: Stratagems

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Imperial Fists Successors count as IMPERIAL FISTS for the purposes of Stratagems. However, not all Successors are CRIMSON FISTS. Seems unfair.

Bitter Enmity. Re-roll to hit and to wound with Melee attacks vs. IRON WARRIORS.

Bolster Defences. Once per game. If an IMPERIAL FISTS unit is 'receiving the benefits of cover', it gains +1 to its Armour Save until it moves for any reason.
I still don't understand why this is only once per game.

Sappers. Your unit gains +1 to hit and to wound vs. BUILDINGS for the phase.

Pain is a Lesson. For a phase, target non-VEHICLE, non-SERVITOR unit gains Ignore Wounds (6+). Not great.

Close-Range Bolter Fire (2). Target IMPERIAL FISTS CORE or IMPERIAL FISTS CHARACTER unit changes the weapon type on their Bolt weapon, to Pistol. This is incredibly good when used on a unit packed with Heavy Bolt weapons (e.g; Heavy Intercessors, Devastators, etc.), as it means they can move and shoot their Heavy weapons without Penalty, 'cause now they're shooting Pistols...You could also probably use the Stratagem to blast a unit away that's in Melee with you...If you're into that sort of thing.

Bolter Drill (2). Target IMPERIAL FISTS CORE or IMPERIAL FISTS CHARACTER unit scores an additional hit on a '6' to hit with their Bolt weapons. The reason this is 2CPs is because it stacks with your Chapter Tactics, making it incredibly good.

Stubborn Defence (2).

Tank Hunters (2). Your unit gains +1 to wound vs. VEHICLES for the phase. Strong. 2 CPs is a bit much.
This was clearly written before Imperial Fists had their Devastator Doctrine nerfed into the ground.

Champion of Blades. When your Successor Chapter chooses a Relic for your army, you can choose one from The Relics of the Fists - including the Crimson Fists' ones.

Sentinel of Terra. Your Warlord gains an extra Imperial Fists Warlord Trait:

- Captain on Bike (T5, 6W), Storm Shield,
- Warlord; Can't be wounded on less than 4+,
- Sentinel of Terra; Half damage,
- Adamantine Mantle; Ignore Wounds (5+)

Of the very, very, very few good things Imperial Fists have access to, this is one of them.

Clearance Protocols. Every model in the unit can throw a Grenade. Can be very, very good.

Praetorian's Wrath (2). Army wide. Whilst Devastator Doctrine is active, rolling a '6' to wound with a Heavy or Grenade weapon increases its AP by 1.
This Stratagem does not explicitly stack with Combat Doctrines. However, if it doesn't, it's useless. But if it does stack, isn't that why it's 2 CPs?

Gift of the Phalanx. Choose a 'Sergeant' in your army, and give it one of the following:

Master-Crafted Weapon, Digital Weapons, Fist of Terra, Gatebreaker Bolts

Fist of Terra requires you to have a Sergeant in your army with a Power Fist. So...Uhh...Vanguard Veterans? As Imperial Fists? ...Scratch that. Gatebreaker Bolts? No. They're bad. The best one here is actually the regular Master-Crafted Wepaon. For whatever that's worth. Depends on the unit.

The Shield Unwavering (2). At the end of your turn, until the start of your next turn, an INFANTRY unit within 3" of an Objective gains +1 Attack and gains +1 to its Armour Saves. This isn't bad, as it's explicitly designed to prevent your opponent from Charging you off of an Objective - that's nice.

Slay the Tyrant. A CRIMSON FISTS unit gains +1 to hit vs. CHARACTERS.

A Hated Foe. A CRIMSON FISTS unit gains re-rolls to hit and to wound with Melee attacks vs. ORKS.

Spoiler: Characters

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Captain Lysander: CAPTAIN, TERMINATOR. His Thunder Hammer is S+6 (10), and AP-3, and doesn't have negs to hit. He has a 3+ Invulnerable save, which is nice. Is that all he does? ...Aura 6"; IMPERIAL FISTS within 6" auto-pass Comat Attrition tests (but they can still potentially fail the Morale test itself, losing Oaths of Moment VPs). Not a great model. Go back to Captains on Bike. They're more resilient than Lysander will ever be. S10 isn't anything. Ignore.
Ultimately, as a Terminator, Lysander can Teleport Strike. Is that it? ...That's it. So bust out your Chapter Champion Warlord, and get to re-roll Charges? But that's a terrible idea. Don't do that. Maybe you want to play Black Templars instead?

Tor Garadon: CAPTAIN, GRAVIS. S*3 (12!) Thunder Hammer, with AP-3, does have negs to hit. But, as a Gravis Captain, he has an extra attack over Terminator Captain Lysander...So Lysander double-sucks. His Thunder Hammer is worse, and he doesn't hit as much. Garadon is also kitted with a Grav-Gun for some reason. It isn't bad, per se, but it's jarring that neither Imperial Fists' unique Characters interact with their Chapter Tactics. In addition to his normal Captain-Aura, Garadon hands out +1 to hit every turn to an IMPERIAL FISTS unit within 3". Finally, for no reason whatsoever, all of Garadon's attacks - melee and ranged - deal +1 Damage to VEHICLES and BUILDINGS. But, once again, it sucks if your opponent plays Chaos or Tyranids and likes spamming MONSTERS, so you get nothing.

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CRIMSON FISTS

Pedro Kantor: CHAPTER MASTER. Has an extra Wound and an Attack over a Captain, and also wears 2+ Armour. He comes with a Master-Crafted Storm Bolter, which is solid because Chapter Tactics - remember those? Also he has a regular Power Fist which isn't totally helpful. However, Aura 6"; CRIMSON FISTS CORE units gain +1 Attack. Which isn't really a thing, because you're still Imperial Crimson Fists, and the majority of your strength comes from Bolt-weapons and Heavy weapons - not Melee attacks.

[Forum Explorer]

For those who haven't heard, Las Vegas Open has been replaced with the Las Vegas Nopen. It's a simple 16 player elimination tournament. However, since people can't actually play in person, the lists are being passed around instead, with 1 player playing multiple different armies as the tournament goes.

They are also having a bracket prize game. Whoever predicts the tournament best wins a prize! You can make your predictions here

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

Where can we see the full lists? I don't see it through your link (or maybe I'm just missing it).

[snowblizz]

However, since people can't actually play in person, the lists are being passed around instead,

For a moment there I thought you were going to say "they just looked at the list to see who won".

[Avaris]

Where can we see the full lists? I don't see it through your link (or maybe I'm just missing it).

Goonhammer has been going through them in detail over the last week or so. Can’t find a single link, but if you search the site you’ll find them, and there is an intro article here: https://www.goonhammer.com/the-las-v...list-previews/

[Cheesegear]

For a moment there I thought you were going to say "they just looked at the list to see who won".

That's our job. That's where the voting comes in.

However, it's not entirely that simple. As much as LansXero said "Australian meta gonna Australia.", from what I saw, nothing was weird. Because what works in the current meta, is any unit that conforms to a playstyle. Any Faction with the right tools, can participate. I guess the Australian meta isn't as insular and incestuous as the US meta. At a certain point, you can put almost anything on the board, as long as it fits the meta.

"Grey Knights suck, 'cause all's they have is Warding Staves, Gate of Infinity, and Paladins."
...Yeah. But what if the controlling player likes Warding Staves, Gate of Infinity, and Paladins?

...What if an Ork player likes Meganobz and Kustom Force Fields?

Factionally-speaking, there's nothing wrong with a Codex, if it's a mono-build Faction with several auto-includes.

Black Templars are bad, because Crusader Squads are basically just non-specialist Firstborn, and that makes the entire (Sub-)Faction bad.
Who told you that? Who told you that Black Templars = Crusader Squads? That's not a rule. Black Templars have free re-roll Charges, and get free (and encouraged) access to Abhor the Witch. Black Templars have never been bad. You're just stuck with an arbitrary list in your own head. Troops - mostly - died out with the launch of 9th Ed., and, additionally, the Space Marines' Codex includes at least two ways (that is, the ones off the top of my head) to give non-Troops Objective Secured. So if you're stuck in the mindset of fielding Crusader Squads, that's your problem, not the Faction's.

Guy in my meta is currently building an Astra Militarum list with x30 Bullgryns. I think that's a mistake. Because Bullgryns come in boxes of 3 - but he's buying them in stages, mostly off of auction and second-hand sites - and that Astra Militarum doesn't even have a Codex yet and who knows what will happen.

But, on the other hand, there's no doubt in my mind, that an Astra Militarum list with x30 Bullgryns in it, can work. It's just that it requires someone crazy enough to want to do it.
"Australian meta gonna Australia."? Or, Astra Militarum actually do have a unit that works in the current meta, that nobody in any previous edition would have tried, so nobody has it yet. Which means that the first person to do it is gonna look weird.

[LansXero]

While the statline might appear solid, they can still get overcosted to oblivion, or something else made much better.

Anyhow, speaking of troops being for dorks, new DA rules give all ravenwing in an outrider and all deathwing in a vanguard obsec. Because wtf even is a greenwing? :v

[Avaris]

While the statline might appear solid, they can still get overcosted to oblivion, or something else made much better.

Anyhow, speaking of troops being for dorks, new DA rules give all ravenwing in an outrider and all deathwing in a vanguard obsec. Because wtf even is a greenwing? :v

What really surprises me is it only hits Terminators, rather than anything Primaris. I’d have expected Deathwing Bladeguard at the very least.

[hamishspence]

I would speculate that it's because Terminators teleport and Bladeguard don't.

[LeSwordfish]

It's definitely strange - presumably dark angels Bladeguard are Deathwing, at least - their friend the Primaris Lieutenant with Storm Shield can be, and he's going to be pretty lonely as the only primaris in the deathwing, having his lunch money taken by the terminators.