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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Again, I'm angry that Heretic Astartes didn't get a +1W update. Which is bizarre, because GW did exactly that at the back-end of 8th Ed., when Space Marines got a new Codex, but Dark Angels and Space Wolves and Blood Angels, didn't, so GW published a document (e.g; Remember when Aggressors got +1W and became the best unit in the Dark Angels Codex?). We know GW can do this. And we know that giving Heretic Astartes +1W is the plan. But, once again, they simply choose not to 'for reasons'.
    My hope is that it'll come out with Death Guard.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But, once again, they simply choose not to 'for reasons'.
    I believe the idea is that you are supposed to go out and buy an entire Space Marine army, that you then abandon later on when something you do want to play comes out.


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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Yeah, I knew they were, but I don't know whether or not that had been taken out of the options, yet.



    I guess in context, we're dealing with Lans' Crusade list, which is low PL/Points - and by extension, low CPs - so I'm trying to recall economical options whilst trying to not make it blatantly obvious that I'm woefully out of touch when it comes to Chaos Space Marines. I remember Red Corsair Bikers with a Power Fist dominating small tables at the tail-end of 8th.

    ...If we were talking about Death Guard I'd know exactly what to do. But that's not the same.
    Biker characters are gone. Index-only, likely never to return. So no Sorc on Bike plus Lord on Bike plus 10 Bikers plus a minumum squad of Chaos Marines to roll over the 500 point meta. But Chaos Bikers are still around, and they still sell the models so they're probably not going anywhere any time soon.

    As for what is a good 500 point CSM list... Hm. Three Obliterators, a Dark Apostle (with disciples) and five CSM with a Heavy Bolter just about fits in 500 points. That's a pretty rude surprise for anyone who has to deal with it, especially in Iron Warriors (for the Obliterator-boosting strats) or Alpha Legion (for the built-in -1 To Hit and ability to screw over Reserves). Maybe Emperor's Children? That one squad of Noise Marines you can boost to hilarious extremes could probably kill half or more of a 500 point army in a single shooting phase, and 10 Noise Marines and a Chaos Lord still leaves you with a bit over 100 points to play with and total freedom to spend it thanks to the noisy boys being Troops.

    Red Corsair bikers is probably still good too. A Jump Pack Lord, a bunch of Bikes and a minimum CSM squad will still run over a lot of armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Again, I'm angry that Heretic Astartes didn't get a +1W update. Which is bizarre, because GW did exactly that at the back-end of 8th Ed., when Space Marines got a new Codex, but Dark Angels and Space Wolves and Blood Angels, didn't, so GW published a document (e.g; Remember when Aggressors got +1W and became the best unit in the Dark Angels Codex?). We know GW can do this. And we know that giving Heretic Astartes +1W is the plan. But, once again, they simply choose not to 'for reasons'.
    Honestly, the way the initial release of 9th edition in general is shaping up just leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. We're right back to the beginning of 8th edition where 'get a codex release, or you don't get to play the game' was in full force, except five of the first six releases are all going to be Space Marines. That pretty much knocked me out of the game for most of 8th; I only started playing again because some of my friends dragged me back in, and I don't really want to leave most of my models on the shelf for the next year because GW decided that only Marines get to actually have an army that works in this edition. While you were errata-ing twelve weapons, would it have killed you to just update the points costs and toss an extra Wound at ten unit entries? Not that that would fix the problem entirely; Loyalists also get better Faction rules (Doctrines vs... Summoning? Death to the False Emperor?) and Chapter Tactics (most of the Chapter Tactics map directly to a Chaos equivalent, and then add a second benefit on top. Sometimes both Chapter Tactic bonuses are better than the one thing Legion Traits gives), and frequently also pack better weapons or additional special rules for the same price. Even if CSM had an extra Wound, they'd still just be comparing to Tactical Marines in usefulness, not Intercessors.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Honestly, the way the initial release of 9th edition in general is shaping up just leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. We're right back to the beginning of 8th edition where 'get a codex release, or you don't get to play the game' was in full force, except five of the first six releases are all going to be Space Marines.
    ...And the sixth is likely to be Inquisition, a Faction that helps Space Marines, because their only rules currently, come out of Psychic Awakening, and that ain't right. If GW knows what they're doing, it's probably going to contain the rules for Custodes, too.

    Loyalists also get better Faction rules (Doctrines vs... Summoning? Death to the False Emperor?) and Chapter Tactics (most of the Chapter Tactics map directly to a Chaos equivalent, and then add a second benefit on top. Sometimes both Chapter Tactic bonuses are better than the one thing Legion Traits gives), and frequently also pack better weapons or additional special rules for the same price. Even if CSM had an extra Wound, they'd still just be comparing to Tactical Marines in usefulness, not Intercessors.
    I think you'll find that most Chaos Marine players aren't looking for parity, or, at least are self-aware enough to know that they're never going to get it. But they are looking for 'Well, it's not ****. So that's good.' A meme going back as far as I can remember; Chaos Can't Have Nice Things.

    The meme was broken in late 7th Ed., when Traitor Legions and Traitor's Hate came out, within months of each other and off the back of Wrath of Magnus. Were any of those things as good as a Gladius, or War Convocation, or Craftworld Warhost? **** no. But it did draw Chaos players back from the cold, with supplements that, at the very least, 'Weren't ****'. If anything, the Magnus and Fatey Power Hour was put on the table and gave people nightmares. Alpha Legion Berzerkers. World Eater Warp Talons. Holy ****, Warp Talons were in the meta... And more besides. Giving Chaos Marines three Supplements all at the same time, opened up a lot of options... There was much rejoicing.

    In 8th Ed., the meme stayed broken. Chaos Marines were competitive for the large majority of the edition (especially because of how Keywords were used), until Cultists and Keywords got significantly nerfed, as most horde-units, did. But then around that time, Shadowspear came out, and Chaos was decently buffed again, with Obliterators coming out swinging and Venomcrawlers oddly finding a place in the meta. And Chaos Marines could always ally in Death Guard or Thousand Sons, and at least pretend that it was all Chaos Marines, on a technicality. So that was neat.

    But, as you said, 9th Ed. has thrown out a lot of things, and replaced those things with nothing. At least right now - actuality takes precedence over potentiality.
    And a major issue with this is consumer trust has been obliterated. How long 'til the next edition? 2 years and slightly longer? Is it even worth playing the game, when you know your Faction isn't going to get a Codex for 12-18 months? Luckily, I play Space Marines (and Necrons, and I've wanted to play Death Guard since mid-8th). All my armies are conveniently at the start of the edition. So I'm good.

    I'd hate to play [insert xenos Faction, you know the one].
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Can you reroll Obliterator's Fleshmetal Guns rolls with a CP anymore?

    I thought the command reroll got a lot more limited.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The meme was broken in late 7th Ed., when Traitor Legions and Traitor's Hate came out, within months of each other and off the back of Wrath of Magnus. Were any of those things as good as a Gladius, or War Convocation, or Craftworld Warhost? **** no. But it did draw Chaos players back from the cold, with supplements that, at the very least, 'Weren't ****'. If anything, the Magnus and Fatey Power Hour was put on the table and gave people nightmares. Alpha Legion Berzerkers. World Eater Warp Talons. Holy ****, Warp Talons were in the meta... And more besides. Giving Chaos Marines three Supplements all at the same time, opened up a lot of options... There was much rejoicing.

    In 8th Ed., the meme stayed broken. Chaos Marines were competitive for the large majority of the edition (especially because of how Keywords were used), until Cultists and Keywords got significantly nerfed, as most horde-units, did. But then around that time, Shadowspear came out, and Chaos was decently buffed again, with Obliterators coming out swinging and Venomcrawlers oddly finding a place in the meta. And Chaos Marines could always ally in Death Guard or Thousand Sons, and at least pretend that it was all Chaos Marines, on a technicality. So that was neat.
    When you say "Chaos was good" is that in the sense that even rando casual like me could have by mistake got good stuff. Or is it more that yes a specific "netlist" special character super dude combo strategically allied with a totally opposed faction lorewise was good? It sounded a bit like "yes chaos was good: Magnus, deamonprinces backed by Deathguard was good"?

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    When you say "Chaos was good" is that in the sense that even rando casual like me could have by mistake got good stuff...
    It was 7th Ed., and late-7th Ed., at that. So this was deep, deep into forming your army around Formations.
    It wasn't so much that so you would pick up stuff by accident. It was more so that if you did what the book blatantly and explicitly told you to do, you would have a good army.

    For a more recent example, let's cite 8th Ed. because the examples are really obvious:

    Imperial Fists: Bolt weapons are boosted. Heavy weapons are boosted. On a surface level reading of those rules, you're actively encouraged to use weapons with 'Bolt' in the name, preferably with the Heavy type. Even if they don't have both, you're pretty explicitly encouraged to pack your army full of Bolt weapons (e.g; Hurricanes) or high RoF Heavy weapons (e.g; Assault Cannons, Twin Assault Cannons). If you use Heavy weapons, Bolt weapons, and Heavy, Bolt weapons, your Imperial Fist army will do just fine. Just fine indeed.
    (For reference, this has changed in 9e, for better or worse)

    Iron Hands: If you use Heavy weapons, if you use Vehicles, with Heavy weapons; You will get a good army. If you simply 'follow the obvious instructions', you will be amazing. It's not rocket science.

    Salamanders: If you stack your army with Flame- and Melta- type weapons, your army becomes actively worse, to the point where in the 'Tier Rankings' of 8e, you had Space Marines resting solidly in the A-Tier, with Iron Hands, Raven Guard and White Scars, moving up to 'S-Tier', and Salamanders, on their own, moving down to B-Tier. Playing Salamanders, and 'following the instructions' was bad (insofar as as bad as 'B-Tier' might be considered during 8e).

    Formations, was basically that (especially towards the end of 7e. Some Formations at the start of the edition were naff. But by the end [especially by Traitor Legions/Traitor's Hate], they almost all pretty good). Do you like a unit or set of units (everyone likes something, right?). If there is a Formation for it, play the Formation, and the unit you like, should be good.
    'Follow the obvious instructions' for the unit(s) you like, and they'll be fine.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It was 7th Ed., and late-7th Ed., at that. So this was deep, deep into forming your army around Formations.
    It wasn't so much that so you would pick up stuff by accident. It was more so that if you did what the book blatantly and explicitly told you to do, you would have a good army.

    For a more recent example, let's cite 8th Ed. because the examples are really obvious:

    Imperial Fists: Bolt weapons are boosted. Heavy weapons are boosted. On a surface level reading of those rules, you're actively encouraged to use weapons with 'Bolt' in the name, preferably with the Heavy type. Even if they don't have both, you're pretty explicitly encouraged to pack your army full of Bolt weapons (e.g; Hurricanes) or high RoF Heavy weapons (e.g; Assault Cannons, Twin Assault Cannons). If you use Heavy weapons, Bolt weapons, and Heavy, Bolt weapons, your Imperial Fist army will do just fine. Just fine indeed.
    (For reference, this has changed in 9e, for better or worse)

    Iron Hands: If you use Heavy weapons, if you use Vehicles, with Heavy weapons; You will get a good army. If you simply 'follow the obvious instructions', you will be amazing. It's not rocket science.

    Salamanders: If you stack your army with Flame- and Melta- type weapons, your army becomes actively worse, to the point where in the 'Tier Rankings' of 8e, you had Space Marines resting solidly in the A-Tier, with Iron Hands, Raven Guard and White Scars, moving up to 'S-Tier', and Salamanders, on their own, moving down to B-Tier. Playing Salamanders, and 'following the instructions' was bad (insofar as as bad as 'B-Tier' might be considered during 8e).

    Formations, was basically that (especially towards the end of 7e. Some Formations at the start of the edition were naff. But by the end [especially by Traitor Legions/Traitor's Hate], they almost all pretty good). Do you like a unit or set of units (everyone likes something, right?). If there is a Formation for it, play the Formation, and the unit you like, should be good.
    'Follow the obvious instructions' for the unit(s) you like, and they'll be fine.
    I see. I spaced out some time late 5th turning to 6th when cost of keeping up became prohibitive and being a normal CSM was, as usual, a dumbass move. I never played with Formations but remember giving up and doing mostly WHFB when they started to be common. One of my last buys was a Heldrake because I liked the model and they were suddenly quite obscenely good. I was going to try and make on into a sitting landed on something pose or some such. I believe after looking over the model I gave up on that.

    As a Chaos player I also never really managed to be on the winnig team of stuff that was good (true for both WHFB and 40k) because there was always something that was head and shoudlers above the normal stuff. Khorne and Nurgle, usually, occasionally some Tzeentch stuff (but if it was there was no models for it you could buy).

    One of the few times something I wanted to paly was actively a super good choice was WHFB Storm of Chaos and the Cult of Pleasure list, combining Dark Elfs and Slaanesh. I had like half a sucky Dark Elf army and half a sucky Slaanesh army that combined became borderline broken. Good times.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    This sort of topic always intrigues me - "historical" list building and shifts to the meta over time. I may be the only one, but it's really interesting to me to see what is good and how it has changed, often not into something diametrically opposed but simply at a complete tangent.

    Second Edition
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    Didn't really have a meta as such, the game wasn't big enough and list building wasn't very sophisticated, but generally whoever had the bigger general tended to win - either a Space Marine Librarian in Terminator armour, or a Bloodthirster with WS10 and 10 attacks. The "Just throw dice at your opponents' models until they all go away" meta.

    Eldar were okay and this was the last time that the Avatar of Khaine was a strong inclusion in your army, but their models were all metal and thus expensive, and since their units each had their tactical niche you either had to whale it up and get one of everything or otherwise struggle against units that you could only sort-of counter at best.

    There were only 3 unique Space Marine Chapters - Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves - who all had the same problems as Eldar in that their special units' were impractically expensive because they required metal parts. Dark Angels had it worst - SB/PF Terminators were okay back then, but entirely metal and so the single most expensive gimmick in the game. Blood Angels were a bit better, but their Death Company was randomly generated, stealing individual models from your other units - if you got enough of them then you could make a decent proto-Death Star, but if not they were a liability that hamstruck the rest of your army by making it smaller. Space Wolves.... had a unique Dreadnought.


    Third Edition
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    The distant mists of time that I don't really remember as lists were still fairly crude, but this was the edition where Dark Eldar appeared and I distinctly remember a period where everyone ran out to buy the new army, smashed their first game with crazy drug-taking, open-topped melee charges, and then got boltored into oblivion in every subsequent game when everyone had realised the gimmick, because of how the 'new' AP rules worked.

    For similar reasons, someone would occasionally put down a Necron Monolith, be called a variety of horrible names for being insane enough to spend (300 or 400?)pts on one model, and within an hour either never get to play another game or (more often) never WANT to play another game depending on how their I'll Be Back rolls turned out. From the very beginning they were the army that would sit at either end of the bell-curve, but never anywhere near the middle.

    Tau basically did the same, 3 years later - Crisis Suits stuck around as competitive for far longer, but Riptides were still a few years away so as long as you could reliably beat AP4 armour (which most people could, because they were used to dealing with AP3 Space Marines) then the 'Suits were usually all that was left at the end of the game.

    Orks reached a peak, of sorts. While list building was still crude and people hadn't yet figured out what the newer armies could do, it was never a wrong move to throw down a Green Tide and stick to the meat-and-potatoes of drowning your enemy in Unbreakable blobs of infantry. Tyranids, less so - their key units like Warriors and Tyranids were still mostly metal and thus prohibitively expensive (not to mention, ugly as ****). Then again Genestealers were one of the single best melee-infantry units in the game who ate Terminators for snacks AND one of the few sets that were entirely plastic, so they always had an ace up their pocket.


    Fourth Edition
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    The Age of the Fast vehicles. If you could go fast and then stab someone in the face in the first turn, this was your edition - early on, Khorne Berzerkers in Rhinos and Orks in Trukks led the actual and proverbial charge, but then Blood Angles hit the scene with Fast Rhinos and their new super-Dreadnoughts that were specifically good at chewing through hordes of infantry.

    The alternatives were similar though generally inferior version by other Space Marines - Black Templars had their hay-day and, unknown at the time, their swan song - but the Red guys were out in front, just as conventional wisdom tells us they should.

    And then it got worse.

    Eldar got their new Codex, and someone had clearly overlooked an obvious misprint; Wraithlords, the shiny new flagship kit, had the "Monstrous Creature" keyword rather than "Walker". That couldn't be right, surely? Look, it even has a Toughness value of 8, clearly they have put the wrong name onto the Avatar's statline and printed it without looking!

    Nope, that really was the way it was meant to be. Triple-Wraithlord lists got more than a few people banned from PUGs, who then realised that they could run 2 Wraithlord and a big squad of Guardians who now moved faster than Space Marines, fired twice as many shots, could easily be given at least one invulnerable save, and be backed up by a Wave Serpent to boot. The dark times were upon us.


    Fifth Edition
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    Space Marines had a bit of a resurgence as they were best equipped to deal with the Eldar menace - AV3 armour stopped the worst of Shuriken Catapults, and Combat Squads effectively answered the "I can wipe out your entire squad in one turn" Eldar boast by just playing twice as many squads.

    And then the Imperial Guard hit the scene with their new codex, and they brought hell with them. Gone were the days when an IG tank was half-plastic/half-metal abominations, instead now all grey and ready to roll. By which I mean, turtle up in a corner and lay waste to the rest of the table, coining the term "Leaf Blower lists" for referring to the most efficient way of removing an enemies' models at the end of the first turn.

    Tau and Space Marines got in on the act as they had the second and third-strongest ranged attacks respectively - particularly Space Wolves, those well known warrior berserker Vikings and their famous proclivity for.. *checks* ...being really, really great with missile launchers - but they didn't really compete as they actually had to spend significant amounts of points on their stuff, which was clearly a huge handicap.

    Eldar hung in there by virtue of Psychic Powers still largely being their domain - either protecting their own from harm or increasing their own output, it was a clear advantage that others couldn't match since Thousand Sons didn't exist yet. Grey Knights almost came close but they were bulls*** for non-psychic reasons, instead relying on the nonsense inherent in their new - highly controversial - codex. Expensive units and a lack of ways to deal with being Leaf-Blowered kept them in their place, whereas in any other edition they would have ruined marriages across the lands.
    In fact in some cases they actually did with just two words: "Inquisitor Coteaz".

    What even is a Tyranid? Sisters of who? Dark what-now? ....D-Orks, more like! okay i'm done now

    Actually that last one wasn't quite true.
    Orks realised that if one guy wore a hat, and another wore sunglasses, and a third wore sunglasses and a hat they they could achieve immortality. As unlikely as it seemed, they were able to carry this on while riding sweet motorbikes for far longer than anyone thought possible, or reasonable.
    Similarly, Tyranids could sort-of get away with Nid-Zilla - masses of Tervigons churning out even larger masses of expendable chaff that most armies struggled to keep up with, unfortunately giving rise to the "just shoot the big ones" meme as it... well, it worked.


    Sixth Edition
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    Imperial Guard were still having a great time, and various flavours of Marines - both Loyal and Traitor - rode on their coat-tails to glory thanks to the new Allies rules. You're still a Space Marine army if you have 999pts of Hellhounds and Leman Russes, right? 51% is a majority, after all.

    Unfortunately, they weren't the only ones who could read between the lines, and Eldar's first new codex in 7 years - the longest wait of any major faction - kicked the doors in, smashed the pint glass out of IG's hands, swept their Tau fiancÚ up into it's proverbial arms and rode into the sunset while the rest of us looked on enviously.

    Sixth was the Age of the Death-Star. At some point everything thought they had a good one- the afore-mentioned Super Ork Bikers was most of what the faction had going for them for example - but the Eldar/Tau alliance (known as Taudar, a curse still on the lips of many) swept the board and sat at the top of the pile across multiple grand tournaments, in different formats, on all continents, for 18 months in a row and everyone else mostly bickered over who would take second place.

    To be fair, for the most part the competition was pretty fierce. Triple-Riptides became the new Triple-Wraithlords; Daemons became the next psychic-powerhouse ; IG lost a lot of respect but could still wipe tables against most others; in fact, most armies had at least one build that could be a serious challenge to most of the others, though oft-times whoever brought the most Star-Lances and Invulnerable saves would walk away the winner regardless of other factors.


    Seventh Edition
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    The End Times - not just because it was the last edition before the radical changes implemented by 8th, but because for many it was also the death of 'fun'.

    Taudar continued to be strong, but they set the trend for other horrible equivalents in the form of Death-Stars; vile amalgamations of HQ and Elite options shrouded in dozens of buffs, valued in points as much as half your entire army and more than capable of taking down the same on your opponents' side. Traitor Astartes/Daemons seemed to be among the top contenders, bolstered by the nonsense that made up Summoning rules at the time, but various flavours of Loyalist Astartes gave birth to variations of the Smash-Captain who distilled the concept into a single heroic miniature.

    Despite new attempts with codices, chapter approved and supplements, the game ultimately accreted into this format; Was your Death Star the most death-y-ist? Or did you have another unit that could reliable remove your opponents' Death Star? No? Back onto the trash-heap you go!

    A few factions were saved by power-creep, culminating in the Gladius Formation wherein Space Marines arbitrarily got free tanks for taking units that they were probably going to take anyway, because **** you.
    "Don't worry," said many people. "It's just their turn, and I'm sure we'll get similar comparable rules when our codex comes out, right?" they assured.

    And then the world ended. True story.


    Eighth Edition
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    Ah, 8th; The purest, most unadulterated form of skub known to mankind. Everything changed, from the core-rules, to the metagame, to the factions who even existed, which was clearly the biggest mistake that GW could ever have made and it would doom us all. I mean, what are they expecting from us - that we learn new rules? Outrageous!

    Turns out, it was just a minor storm in a cess-pool. 8th was actually pretty good - the strong armies were still pretty strong, but the reset did away with the most egregious examples like the Gladius, and the Psychic Powers, and everyone gained some breathing space where they had to try new things and see what stuck.

    Space Marines were still pretty good - most of the flavours had a way in which they could shine, and Guilliman at various times both lifted them up and dragged them down depending on which version of his rules you were using, though they would start to lose the plot towards the end with Iron Hands notoriously going off the deep end.
    We don't talk about Space Wolves. They had their chance and they blew it, but after the fiasco that was 5th edition very few people had much sympathy.

    Eldar were still pretty good - Not quite the crazy heights that they had gotten used to but manageable, with the biggest complaint against them being from people who had to endure a mere 95% win-rate.

    The changes to the rules that made horde armies good was just good news for many Factions. Orks, Tyranids, Daemons, Cultists Death Guard. Tzaangors Thousand Sons - all had variations that let them play the game for more than 2 turns. What more could you want? Even the new guys - Genestealer Cults - had a flash-in-the-pan success and a few gimmicks that could ensure an overwhelming (albeit unpredictable) win against anyone if they got a bit lucky.

    The biggest losers of 8th were probably Dark Eldar - they got to revisit their glory days of turn 1 melee from open-topped skimmers, but they didn't really have anything else going for them after that state of affairs was tweaked, yet at the same time they never completely sucked hard like 4th/Tyranids or 4th/Sisters before them. They weren't bad, they just weren't great. Chaos Marines felt similar, though their highs weren't quite as high neither were their lows quite as low.

    And then the world ended. Again.


    I'm sure there's more that I don't remember. Though mostly I think it was variations on "And the Eldar found something else that was horrible" like swarms of War-Walkers with dozens of scat-lazer shots per turn, or fleets of Wave Serpents firing the Lazer-Shield en masse until it wasn't funny any more, and I got tired of writing 'Eldar' over and over again. Good times!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    This sort of topic always intrigues me - "historical" list building and shifts to the meta over time. I may be the only one, but it's really interesting to me to see what is good and how it has changed, often not into something diametrically opposed but simply at a complete tangent.

    Second Edition
    Didn't really have a meta as such, the game wasn't big enough and list building wasn't very sophisticated, but generally whoever had the bigger general tended to win - either a Space Marine Librarian in Terminator armour, or a Bloodthirster with WS10 and 10 attacks. The "Just throw dice at your opponents' models until they all go away" meta.

    Eldar were okay and this was the last time that the Avatar of Khaine was a strong inclusion in your army, but their models were all metal and thus expensive, and since their units each had their tactical niche you either had to whale it up and get one of everything or otherwise struggle against units that you could only sort-of counter at best.

    There were only 3 unique Space Marine Chapters - Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves - who all had the same problems as Eldar in that their special units' were impractically expensive because they required metal parts. Dark Angels had it worst - SB/PF Terminators were okay back then, but entirely metal and so the single most expensive gimmick in the game. Blood Angels were a bit better, but their Death Company was randomly generated, stealing individual models from your other units - if you got enough of them then you could make a decent proto-Death Star, but if not they were a liability that hamstruck the rest of your army by making it smaller. Space Wolves.... had a unique Dreadnought.
    I think you might be mis-remembering the Death Company rules. In 2nd you could just choose to include a squad of Death Company. Having random members of your various squads suddenly become Death Company sounds like a Rogue Trader thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I think you might be mis-remembering the Death Company rules. In 2nd you could just choose to include a squad of Death Company. Having random members of your various squads suddenly become Death Company sounds like a Rogue Trader thing.
    Random models from units becoming Death Company was definitely a thing in 3rd edition at least, not sure about 2nd. The way it worked in 3rd was that a Death Company chaplain automatically came with D3+3, then you rolled a d6 for each infantry or bike unit and on a 4+ one of the members of the unit becomes Death Company. If you rolled a 6, roll again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I think you might be mis-remembering the Death Company rules. In 2nd you could just choose to include a squad of Death Company. Having random members of your various squads suddenly become Death Company sounds like a Rogue Trader thing.
    Rogue Trader didn't have Death Company. The Blood Angels existed, but they were still transhumans rather than Astartes, and they didn't have the Red Thirst/Black Rage on account of the Primarchs not existing at that time.

    I'm pretty sure it was second edition because I remember my brother doing it in his Blood Angels army, and he never played beyond second edition. Possibly the version was slightly different than I remembered it, but you had to roll SOMETHING for them and it was stupidly unreliable, even less so than the rules that Avaris mentioned, because you didn't automatically get a Chaplain and if you didn't volunteer to take points for one then the DC would move randomly or some such.

    Still; that's 25 years of poor 40k decisions, so if that's the only one you disagree with then I'm still doing pretty well
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post

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    Eldar got their new Codex, and someone had clearly overlooked an obvious misprint; Wraithlords, the shiny new flagship kit, had the "Monstrous Creature" keyword rather than "Walker". That couldn't be right, surely? Look, it even has a Toughness value of 8, clearly they have put the wrong name onto the Avatar's statline and printed it without looking!

    Nope, that really was the way it was meant to be. Triple-Wraithlord lists got more than a few people banned from PUGs, who then realised that they could run 2 Wraithlord and a big squad of Guardians who now moved faster than Space Marines, fired twice as many shots, could easily be given at least one invulnerable save, and be backed up by a Wave Serpent to boot. The dark times were upon us.
    Eldar Wraithlords were creatures rather than vehicles from the moment 3e came out. And they were Toughness 8 when their 3e codex came out (before that, they were Toughness 7).

    It is true though that they did not become Monstrous Creatures till 4e. Before that, their hitting power came from having Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons instead. Still good, but Str 10 + d6, was distinctly inferior to Str 10 + 2d6. To the extent that later editions reduced the Wraithlord's strength a little.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It is true though that they did not become Monstrous Creatures till 4e. Before that, their hitting power came from having Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons instead. Still good, but Str 10 + d6, was distinctly inferior to Str 10 + 2d6. To the extent that later editions reduced the Wraithlord's strength a little.
    Ah yes, 4th Ed. meant that they ignored saves - they were comparably handicapped by having Power Fists, which only gave them S10. Good catch.

    It's not an exhaustive list, as I said - just the highlights that I was able to pull together. Corrections and additions welcome, naturally.

    Although one critical oversight that I made regarding 4th edition: Tau's Fish Of Fury, and their abuse of the skimmer rules (using Devilfish to screen disembarked troops in a way that couldn't be assaulted or fired through). It didn't last long, as I recall, but it pissed off a lot of people while it was here.
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    I don't have a Space Marine codex yet, and am not sure where else to check.

    Can Outriders only be taken in squads of 3? I thought it was possible to take up to 6 per squad.

    Was under the impression there was something similar with Bladeguard Veterans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Ah yes, 4th Ed. meant that they ignored saves - they were comparably handicapped by having Power Fists, which only gave them S10. Good catch.
    4e codex's removing their powerfists (but still allowing them to keep S10) was a big buff - which is probably why their 6e codex cut their Str to Str 8.

    I noticed that Heavy Flamers became more available to Blood Angels squads as time went by. Initially (5e), only Sternguard got to take them them. Then Tactical Squads got to take them. Then Devastator squads got to take them too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    I don't have a Space Marine codex yet, and am not sure where else to check.

    Can Outriders only be taken in squads of 3? I thought it was possible to take up to 6 per squad.

    Was under the impression there was something similar with Bladeguard Veterans.
    Bladeguard and Eradicators are 3-6 (including the squad leader).

    Outriders and Suppressors are always 3, no more, no less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    When you say "Chaos was good" is that in the sense that even rando casual like me could have by mistake got good stuff. Or is it more that yes a specific "netlist" special character super dude combo strategically allied with a totally opposed faction lorewise was good? It sounded a bit like "yes chaos was good: Magnus, deamonprinces backed by Deathguard was good"?
    Chaos was actually fun to play, for like 6 months. Hell, Iron Warriors didn't suck and we couldn't say that since 4th ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I'm sure there's more that I don't remember. Though mostly I think it was variations on "And the Eldar found something else that was horrible" like swarms of War-Walkers with dozens of scat-lazer shots per turn, or fleets of Wave Serpents firing the Lazer-Shield en masse until it wasn't funny any more, and I got tired of writing 'Eldar' over and over again. Good times!
    You somehow forgot the absolute degeneracy that was triple Wraithknight in 7th.

    Also Orks hanging on desperately by their 45 Lootas and 3 Shokk Attack guns in 5th and 6th. It was a very bad time all around
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Bladeguard and Eradicators are 3-6 (including the squad leader).

    Outriders and Suppressors are always 3, no more, no less.
    Looks like I'm going to have way too many Outriders then, but just the right amount of Bladeguard.

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    I've been doing a lot of "side-by-side comparisons" between the 8e and 9e Marines codexes, and it's interesting to see all the little weapon changes - which weapons are now slightly worse, and which slightly better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post

    I'm sure there's more that I don't remember. Though mostly I think it was variations on "And the Eldar found something else that was horrible" like swarms of War-Walkers with dozens of scat-lazer shots per turn, or fleets of Wave Serpents firing the Lazer-Shield en masse until it wasn't funny any more, and I got tired of writing 'Eldar' over and over again. Good times!
    Late 4e was an interesting time. Chaos Marines and Orks had only just gotten Codexes, and man were those books good. Chaos Marines had a Do-Everything-Robot in the form of Obliterators, Daemon Princes were incredibly strong at a reasonable points cost and Lash of Submission let you move the enemy's models. Put two and two together and all of a sudden little things like 'being in cover is good' and 'don't clump up your infantry squads into tiny balls, the enemy has Plasma Cannons' no longer applied. And if you rolled at least a 7 on 2d6, you could first-turn charge with your Princes if you wanted, too! Two Lash Princes, nine Obliterators and whatever rounded out your points was broken, and everybody hated it. Well, almost everybody...

    Orks, meanwhile, all of a sudden had basic Troops that were pretty good in melee, and cost 6 points. 6. Nobody had 6 point dudes. Imperial Guard Conscripts were the only thing in the game that cheap, and they sucked horribly. So, they grabbed 180 of them, called it the Green Tide, and just shoved them forward at the enemy and won. 4e's combat and morale rules were extremely generous to huge melee units, and Orks had the hugest, melee-est units around.

    The last awful army in 4e was also the one that was around the longest; the flying circus. Good old Eldar. Falcon Grav Tanks are... Essentially unkillable. They can only be Glanced, never Penetrated, roll twice and pick whatever they want on the damage table, and ignore most of the results. You want to kill one, you need roll two 6s or get Weapon Destroyed four times. Harlequins are melee murder machines, with many attacks and Rending, which in 4e was hilariously overpowered (roll a 6 To Hit, auto-wound and ignore armour. Eldar had ready access to rerolls to hit. You see where this is going). Take three Falcons, fill 'em up with Harlequins, and melee the other guy to death. Nobody can interact with it. You just lose a bunch of models in melee, and your shooting does nothing. If you put your units close together, the Harlequins consolidate into them and kill them on your turn. Put them far apart and you aren't allowed to shoot the Harlequins, because Veil of Tears is dumb. Moral of the story: You don't get to shoot Harlies, and you won't win in Melee. GG WP. Only Orks beat this, because 30 Orks can actually beat 6 Harlequins in melee. All hail our new Ork Overlords... Except when Chaos clumps them into little bitty circles and kills two units a turn. Right. Chaos beats Orks beats Clowns beats Chaos. Rock-paper-scissors it is.


    6e had Flyer-spam as well as the stuff you mentioned, with Triple-Heldrake being the most egregious but Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Marines all got in on the plane train as time went on. Pretty much only Eldar and Tau didn't, and that's because they were too busy laughing about being the best to bother using their aircraft, which were merely mediocre as opposed to crazy strong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    You somehow forgot the absolute degeneracy that was triple Wraithknight in 7th.
    The horrible part is that I didn't forget it; they just didn't need it due to all the other nonsense that they had to hand at the time.

    Triple-Riptides and Tripe-Wraithknights were comparable, but only the former actually mattered in the grand scheme of things.

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    Eldar [...] were too busy laughing about being the best to bother using their aircraft, which were merely mediocre as opposed to crazy strong.
    Case in point. And even then, I remember some tournaments having Crimson Hunter-spam make it to the top of the table. "Mediocre" is a relative term, and Aeldari mediocre was Sisters of Battles' literally unattainable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    This sort of topic always intrigues me - "historical" list building and shifts to the meta over time. I may be the only one, but it's really interesting to me to see what is good and how it has changed, often not into something diametrically opposed but simply at a complete tangent.
    2nd-3rd Ed.
    I'm mostly going to consider this a wash. My friends and I were young, we didn't have a lot of money, and we 'played with what we had/could afford'. I do, however, remember Codex: Armageddon coming out, with Black Templars, and GW releasing Land Raider Crusaders, which dominated the latter half of 3.5. Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard and Chaos Space Marines also got their 3.5 Codecies and got really, really, really good. Many players still consider the 3.5 Chaos Marine and Imperial Guard Codecies to be the best ever...But also those people could also be grognards. But also, 3.5 was when Graham McNeill started writing Codecies and he was very passionate about making good rules, that matched the fluff.

    4th Ed.
    With the 'Trial Assault Rules' becoming Core Rules, you could no longer Charge out of a Vehicle...Except for Open-Topped Vehicles and Assault Vehicles. Graham McNeill would also write the 4th Ed. Space Marines, and the fantastic Black Templars Codex (and in my opinion, the best Codex ever written...But, lol...Every 'best Codex evar' is written by McNeill). Land Raider Crusaders still dominated the edition off of their popularity from 3rd Ed., and the only thing that could stop them were Orks and Dark Eldar. Orks, rolling up out of their Open-Topped Trukks and 'Wagons and dropping Tankbusta Bombs, and Dark Eldar rolling up out of their Raiders (that had Dark Lances, by the way), and annihilating Land Raiders with Haywire Grenades (Nice AV14, nerd. I wound you on 2+). Black Templars were also interesting because they allowed 'a horde of Space Marines' without being terrible like Space Wolves. Necrons played a similar game with Monoliths, and their AV14, combined with Living Metal. But I don't think I need to explain that Monoliths and Land Raider Crusaders aren't the same thing at all. Another important thing was that Land Raider Crusaders (Hurricanes and Assault Cannons) could take Multi-Meltas, and counter themselves which was super important. Whilst Space Marines were good, fact is, they were not the best in the meta, because they were straight up hard-countered by Dark Eldar and Orks. Holy ****, can you even imagine?

    5th Ed.
    Yeah, okay. AV13+ is a problem. Let's nerf it significantly. Now we enter an era where you can get three Razorbacks for the price of a Land Raider. 5th also introduced Matt Ward, who seemed a lot like the anti-Graham McNeill, less of a novelist, and more of a gamer. And went full Stormwind. You write the rules you want, and once you have the rules, you create the fluff to justify what you've done. 5th Ed. revised a lot of how Space Marines, and Space Marine Chapters worked (including Grey Knights, which Matt Ward would also write). Causing a lot of problems. 5th Ed. only had 9 Codecies written for the entire edition. So, whilst it was arguably the 'smallest' edition, it's arguably the edition that people remember most, because Space Marines simply dominated so hard. During 5th Ed., Dark Eldar got a Codex and were totally shafted out of the meta because of nerfs to literally everything that made them work. Many pessimists at the time, claimed that the reasons Dark Eldar had all of their mechanics significantly nerfed, was because 'Space Marines couldn't do it'.

    However, interestingly, the meta still revolved around Vehicles, which means Orks were still competitive (especially Nob Bikers). However, a big problem was that Orks were competitive, in a way that Ork players didn't want to play, like. 5th Ed. was very bad, in that it began the trend of 'You can't have what you want.'

    You can play the Faction the way you like, or you can win games. What You Like != What Is Good. Graham McNeill - and the other 'hobbyists-as-designers' - have left the building.

    Importantly, 5th Ed. was more or less when net-lists became popular, and people began posting tournament results, and this gave rise to theory blogs and in particular a guy called Stelek; A very unpopular theorycrafter, and an even worse TO. His problem wasn't necessarily his message, but the tone he said it in; The game was ****ed, and Matt Ward had ruined it, and if you were going to play the game competitively, you had to be ****ed, too.

    6th Ed.
    Brought in Hull Points making AV12 useless, but AV14 is still nerfed. So there was a sweet spot, in AV13 (e.g; Vindicators). Vehicles sucked now. But Allies being brought into the game, meant that Codecies were no longer hard trash compared to other Codecies. Importantly, the way Characters worked, and the way that Independent Characters could be grouped together, could totally **** with the flow of the game. Equally as importantly, was the rise of Character-like models, that is, units of multi-wound models that could be equipped differently, on each model. The ur-examples being Nob Bikers, and Thunderwolf Cavalry. However, what really, really, really ****ed the entire edition, was Psychic Powers. Specifically Biomancy (Enduarance), Telepathy (Invisibility), and almost all of Divination:
    • The Eldar Jet Council (or JetStar, as it was known in Australia). Importantly, Dark Eldar had a few tools, most notably, Ace Rimmer Duke Sliscus, that could be allied into an Eldar Death Star. And, oddly, you could even do the reverse. Play Dark Eldar with a ****-ton of Khymera and Razorwings, and put Farseers, in. Exact same basic idea as the Jet Council. But now you're Dark Eldar, instead.
    • The Chaos Daemon Tzeentch Screamer Council (and Slaanesh Seeker Council)
    • *Literally several layers of goodness later*
    • Ravenwing + ThunderWolf Cavalry. Space Wolves and Dark Angels best friends forever. True facts.

    Interestingly, the way Ordnance worked, was that all wounds were taken on the model under the hole. So, if you could roll a 'Hit' on your Scatter dice, one, specific model, would take like 8 wounds before wounds could be allocated to any other model, and, of course this was still an edition where models could be doubled-out, and S8 was instant death for most non-Vehicle models. So if you could drop an Ordnance Marker on a specific Farseer-on-Jetbike (only T4, of course), that Farseer was straight up dead, if it failed a single 2+ Look Out, Sir...And it had to make like, 8.
    (This is when that I learned that in a Death Star meta that had left Space Marines behind, Imperial Fists with Vindicators [AV13] and a Fortress of Redemption [yes, one of those], was really, really, really strong.)
    Very late in the edition, Sentinels of Terra and Clan Raukaan were released. Sentinels of Terra is confirmed to be the last book Matt Ward wrote by himself - and it's both awful, and good. Matt Ward may have written other things, since. But definitely not by himself, and definitely not with his name on the cover. SoT was very, very hit-and-miss. But Clan Raukaan was extremely good, most notably because of the inclusion of the Gorgon's Chain. Still, Space Marines were still **** in the meta, because Eldar Jet Councils and Daemon Screamer Councils, could Fly. That's game.

    Finally, the Tau Firebase Support Cadre, with Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) for some God-awful reason. If Eldar (Battle Brothers, with Tau) weren't already on top, and if Space Marine players weren't already being told to leave tournaments and never come back in 6th Ed...This was it.

    6th Ed. also did something to the game, that a lot of people, still, to this day, don't even understand, even when it's right in front of them:

    The game is broken. GW either can't or wont fix it, since it actually seems in GW's interests to keep the game in a broken state. Or, rather, it seems that it's in GW interests to keep certain units - or entire Factions - in a broken state. This is a problem that's been mentioned many times, and it's not my point. But, this lead to the rise of TOs and groups changing the rules of the game, and more often than not, changing the win conditions of the game. That is, many, many, many tournaments - including high-profile ones - were not playing by the rules, in the rulebook. However, net-listing was still going very strong. So people would often post results of a tournament, but not post the rules of the tournament, giving people very skewed ideas on what was, and wasn't good. This gave rise to 'pocket metas' and made online discussion very difficult because many metas simply weren't playing by the same rules.

    7th Ed. brought in Formations, and specifically DSDs. We remember how this went. All Factions were more-or-less good (but perhaps not 'good' in the way that people wanted them to be...Do Ork players really want to be running 30 Tankbustas again, with 15 Deffkoptas? ...Except we're in an edition now where you can't get plastic Deffkoptas for dirt cheap out of Assault on Black Reach anymore?). But no Faction was quite so dominant as AdMech, Space Marines, and Craftworlds - in ascending order.

    8th Ed. started with Space Marines dominating the meta for four-five months. All the tools that Space Marines had, that made them competitive, were nerfed, and replaced with nothing. Space Marines then dropped out of the competitive meta for the rest of the edition... But Blood Angel Smash Captains still very strong.

    However, a problem that started in 6th Ed., still persisted: In early-2019 (six months before the 8.2 Marine Codex), the ITC, an organisation that had convinced many people to not play using the rules in the rulebook, but, to all follow more-or-less the same meta, soft-banned hordes from the meta. However, net-lists were still posted, and, of course, all of the major tournaments that people actually gave a **** about, did not follow the rules in the rulebook. This was a disaster for non-ITC tournament players, and of course, the casual players, who did not understand what they were looking at. This became especially true when Space Marines got their second book, and began being the most Space Marine-like out of all of the Space Marine-like Factions (e.g; Craftworlds and T'au), because, as mentioned, the ITC had already soft-banned non-Space Marine-like Factions out of the meta six months ago.

    ...Which of course has led us to 9th Ed.: A system where even casuals are forced to try hard or get roflstomped, and also they have to play Space Marines.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Weirdly enough, the biggest gatekeeping aspects of the hobby are the ones you see the least amount of houserules to remove.

    WYSIWYG is a rich man's rule; 'must have physical book present' is another stupid ass rule that contributes to the perception of 'rules bloat', people thinking showing up somewhere with a case of minis is reasonable in the age of whatsapp and messenger groups, etc. There are so many QoL improvements people should be making to make the hobby easier to get into before touching rulebooks and mission packs, that they simply gloss over because if they had to do it, then by god everybody else forever will do it.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Weirdly enough, the biggest gatekeeping aspects of the hobby are the ones you see the least amount of houserules to remove.

    WYSIWYG is a rich man's rule; 'must have physical book present' is another stupid ass rule that contributes to the perception of 'rules bloat', people thinking showing up somewhere with a case of minis is reasonable in the age of whatsapp and messenger groups, etc. There are so many QoL improvements people should be making to make the hobby easier to get into before touching rulebooks and mission packs, that they simply gloss over because if they had to do it, then by god everybody else forever will do it.
    WYSIWYG is easy enough to bypass in casual games, but at a tournament it's a pain to ajudicate the boundary between reasonable substitution and confusing mess. Even putting aside the people taking the urine because it's a tournament, and those people will inevitably crawl out from under the rocks they live under (I'm not talking about being cash strapped; I mean terrible people deliberately trying to be obtuse so as to gain an advantage by being confusing), Units with laundry lists of wargear get messy and hard for the opponent to remember without the ability to look over and see what each model is carrying. WYSIWYG serves as a way to minimize drama and hurt feelings, since it's easy to explain and doesn't (usually) require adjudication.

    As for bringing the books... Well, as long as you can show me the official wording of the rules somewhere, I'm okay, whether that's the actual BRB/Codex/Supplement/PA book, or just a photograph you took of the relevant page.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    WYSIWYG is a rich man's rule
    Yes and No. Though I'm not sure whether you're talking about entire-unit proxies, or simply wargear switching.

    But ultimately WYSIWYG comes from an era of pre-5th Ed., and definitely not from tournament play, where your army lists were supposed to be hidden from your opponent. Your opponent was supposed to be able to make 'reasonable guesses' on what you had, based on what you modeled and/or put on the table. Hidden wargear, was exactly that - hidden. For example, in the Chaos 3.5 Codex, it was very common for a model to have a certain Daemonic Gift. It was too good not to take. However, you weren't supposed to tell your opponent which model had it, and if you just handed over your army list, they would just know.
    Pre-5th Ed. had many 'gotch'ya' moments when people would present their army lists "Joke's on you ****head, my model has had [wargear] the entire time, and now you're in Melee!" Like, you didn't have to reveal that your models had hidden wargear, until you used it. But when you used it, you would have to prove that you had it. ...Just as an aside, you also did not have to declare what units - if any - were inside what Transports, that's part of what made Transports so strong - your opponent had to guess what was inside, and if you had multiple Transports, your opponents could absolutely guess wrong.

    In the present, post-5th Ed. world, where handing your opponent your army list before the game even starts, is really common. Hell, sometimes your opponent simply holds onto your army list for the entire game (this is where 'no phones' really comes into play). If you've printed your list directly from Battlescribe (ew, gross), your opponent not only has your army list, but your opponent also has access to what everything does, too.

    "I know that model has a Plasma Pistol, but it's not written on your army list. Your army list says Bolt Pistol."
    ...The army list is correct. Always.

    But ultimately, WYSIWYG is a way to sell models, and that's why it exist. Otherwise people would just say that their Tactical Marines are now Intercessors, and there's no problem with Tacticals sucking, because there are no Tacticals anymore.

    Additionally, WYSIWYG wouldn't be a problem if what you liked, was good.

    'must have physical book present' is another stupid ass rule that contributes to the perception of 'rules bloat'
    I've never, ever been to a tournament where books are forced to have.
    The only rule I've ever been subjected to - and I 100% agree with - is 'no phones'.

    people thinking showing up somewhere with a case of minis is reasonable in the age of whatsapp and messenger groups, etc.
    How do chat groups change how physical miniatures work?

    There are so many QoL improvements people should be making to make the hobby easier to get into...
    And that starts with GW.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    How do chat groups change how physical miniatures work?
    It changes how much stuff you carry with you, no random odds and ends no need to be dissapointed by power levels or expectations not matching, no more 'cant get a game' afternoons.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    And that starts with GW.
    But doesnt end there. I guess I live in a weird 'organized non-tournament play' bubble

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    For what it's worth, I mostly store my models in their carry cases, so tend to cart my entire army anywhere I go, all I need to know is what game I want or can get. The exceptions are models I have out as decoration (Inquisition stuff, my Knight) and stuff so huge it needs a seperate box (Caestus, Baneblade) - worst case scenario someone offers me a game large enough(/wierd enough) to use them and I can't.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    It changes how much stuff you carry with you, no random odds and ends no need to be disappointed by power levels or expectations not matching...
    I guess that's only a problem if you take public transport?

    no more 'cant get a game' afternoons.
    Not usually bothered by that. When that did happen at my local store...I just painted in store. Or I went for beers for lunch. Or both.

    But doesn't end there. I guess I live in a weird 'organized non-tournament play' bubble
    I think I've told the story before. But local chat groups for my meta have been made before. They always...Devolve.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    So I haven't picked up the space marine codex yet, but I'm curious, for those who do have it - does the hammerfall bunker have a transport capacity?

    I had assumed from it being called a bunker that it does, but I'm not seeing an obvious door on the model and the description on games workshop's site makes it sound fully automated. Is it actually just a levelled-up deathstorm drop pod? If it is, I suppose that might fit better with established lore than marines getting fortifications.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Ok, so... I now have to completely rebuild the core of my Ultramarines.

    Thanks GW Marketing department. Couldn't play the long game anymore, and gently coax us long-time players to adding Primaris units over time, could you? Nope, just had to hard nerf classic models to the point of being unusable, even in friendly casual games. The Troop choices no less. That's just absurdly greedy. And that's already after Codex 8.2 and Supplements last year.

    This is where I'm torn between restarting my Marines 90% from scratch (and deciding if I stick with the Ultramarines since I first started playing, or go another route), or go ahead, build T'au. Yes yes I know, "They're sub-50% in Tourney play!", "They have no Fight/Psychic phase!". Though I would have the advantage of starting from scratch with T'au, and tailoring them to 9ths more Mobile, Objective focused requirements (More Pulse Blasters and Carbines perhaps?)

    What can I do with my old Tactical Marines at this point? Aside from Kill-Team games (and even then you just bring the ones with equipment along), the only other thing I can think of is sell/trade to a 30k player that doesn't mind Early 3rd Edition or latter Marines, or Convert into Sternguard by adding battle bling.

    And I want to know what's viable options/suggestions here for rebuilding before I even bother purchasing a 9th Edition codex.

    I do have someone willing to sell/trade me the Vanguard Primaris from a Shadowspear box he never built, so at least I can begin shaping up that huge void now left in my Troop choices. I've been slow to get back into updating and rebuilding my old army and don't have enough Primaris Troops yet otherwise.

    Are Combat Squads (Split Full squads in half) still a thing?

    Side note, given changes to Icarus weapons I'm hearing, viability of Sgt. Chronus (Ultramarines) in a Stalker tank? Or keep him in a Whirlwind/Vindicator/Predator still?
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