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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Honestly, I know where you're at. I've been saying it myself. If Drukhari doesn't knock it out of the park, or there aren't drastic changes to the MSU meta, I'm likely to quit 40K sometime in 2021.
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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Honestly, I know where you're at. I've been saying it myself. If Drukhari doesn't knock it out of the park, or there aren't drastic changes to the MSU meta, I'm likely to quit 40K sometime in 2021.
    Hold on, you expect the MSU-in-flying-boats faction to flip the MSU meta over? Unless you actually believe Covens will be viable in a world where you're tooled up to kill Gravis marines and have AP for days.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Hold on, you expect the MSU-in-flying-boats faction to flip the MSU meta over? Unless you actually believe Covens will be viable in a world where you're tooled up to kill Gravis marines and have AP for days.
    I mean, Wytches could pull a Meta Buster ala Orks if it works right. I'm not holding my breath but it would be nice to see some build diversity here.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    The T3 models with way less attack, no inmune-to-morality grandfathered in, elite costed because of a bunch of rules they wont live long enough to fully use and no blender / force multiplier HQs? I mean, new codex so anything goes, but I wouldnt hope for it.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Welcome to 5th I mean 9th Ed.
    Don't be silly. 5th wasn't 75%+ AoS.

    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But it's a moving castle.
    Tallarnic Howl's Moving Castle; or Basket, Eggs, All in One (Based on 8e Index Points values, because I don't have anything newer for IG. Also, this isn't serious. (Hopefully.) )
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    Battalion Detachment
    HQ
    2 : Company Commander <Tallarn> w/ Nothing

    Troops
    3 : Infantry Squad <Tallarn> w/ Nothing

    Elites
    3 : Command Squads <Tallarn> w/ 4 Meltaguns
    3 : Special Weapon Squads <Tallarn> w/ 3 Meltaguns

    Super Heavy Detachment
    2 : Stormlord Tank <Tallarn> w/ 4 Heavy Bolter/Lascannon Sponsons, Stormbolter
    1 : Shadowsword Tank <Tallarn> w/ 4 Heavy Bolter/Lascannon Sponsons, Stormbolter

    Total : 1954

    Hide your CCs and mandatory cannonfodder as best you can. Pregame, load all your Meltaguns with legs, sorry "special weapon carriers", into Stormlord(s). Just one if you're feeling the name really strongly, it has 20 fireports and you have 21 Meltaguns. Outflank Stormlord(s)*. Open fire. Eject meltaguns from armour as necessary. Spend 46 points on party favours.

    *If Tallarn has been errata'd not to work on Super Heavies (or never did), disregard entire... "Plan".

  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Misery Esquire View Post
    Don't be silly. 5th wasn't 75%+ AoS.

    ...



    Tallarnic Howl's Moving Castle; or Basket, Eggs, All in One (Based on 8e Index Points values, because I don't have anything newer for IG. Also, this isn't serious. (Hopefully.) )
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    Battalion Detachment
    HQ
    2 : Company Commander <Tallarn> w/ Nothing

    Troops
    3 : Infantry Squad <Tallarn> w/ Nothing

    Elites
    3 : Command Squads <Tallarn> w/ 4 Meltaguns
    3 : Special Weapon Squads <Tallarn> w/ 3 Meltaguns

    Super Heavy Detachment
    2 : Stormlord Tank <Tallarn> w/ 4 Heavy Bolter/Lascannon Sponsons, Stormbolter
    1 : Shadowsword Tank <Tallarn> w/ 4 Heavy Bolter/Lascannon Sponsons, Stormbolter

    Total : 1954

    Hide your CCs and mandatory cannonfodder as best you can. Pregame, load all your Meltaguns with legs, sorry "special weapon carriers", into Stormlord(s). Just one if you're feeling the name really strongly, it has 20 fireports and you have 21 Meltaguns. Outflank Stormlord(s)*. Open fire. Eject meltaguns from armour as necessary. Spend 46 points on party favours.

    *If Tallarn has been errata'd not to work on Super Heavies (or never did), disregard entire... "Plan".
    Tallarn only works on 1 vehicle, so there's no reason to run the Shadowsword as well. Instead, use those points to beef up the rest of the army.
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  7. - Top - End - #457
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Didnt expect it to be THAT far over the limit. Guess point costs really have changed huh?

    Spoiler: 2600 pts. of Super Heavy Guard
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    ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [24 PL, 12CP, 582pts] ++

    + Configuration +

    Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

    Detachment CP

    Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum

    + HQ +

    Company Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol, Relic: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh

    Company Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol, Warlord, WT: Grand Strategist

    Company Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

    + Troops +

    Infantry Squad [3 PL, 50pts]
    . 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
    . Sergeant: Laspistol

    Infantry Squad [3 PL, 50pts]
    . 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
    . Sergeant: Laspistol

    Infantry Squad [3 PL, 50pts]
    . 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
    . Sergeant: Laspistol

    + Elites +

    Command Squad [2 PL, 64pts]
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

    Command Squad [2 PL, 64pts]
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

    Command Squad [2 PL, 64pts]
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

    Special Weapons Squad [1 PL, 45pts]
    . 3x Guardsman: 3x Lasgun
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

    Special Weapons Squad [1 PL, 45pts]
    . 3x Guardsman: 3x Lasgun
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

    Special Weapons Squad [1 PL, 45pts]
    . 3x Guardsman: 3x Lasgun
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

    ++ Super-Heavy Detachment -6CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [96 PL, -6CP, 2,019pts] ++

    + Configuration +

    Detachment CP [-6CP]

    Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum

    + Lord of War +

    Shadowsword [32 PL, 673pts]: Storm Bolter, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter

    Stormlord [32 PL, 673pts]: 2x Heavy stubber, Storm Bolter, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter

    Stormlord [32 PL, 673pts]: 2x Heavy stubber, Storm Bolter, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
    . Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter

    ++ Total: [120 PL, 6CP, 2,601pts] ++

    Created with BattleScribe


    But then again, the entirety of the excess point cost comes from the sponsons alone.
    Last edited by LansXero; 2020-11-28 at 08:18 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Tallarn only works on 1 vehicle, so there's no reason to run the Shadowsword as well. Instead, use those points to beef up the rest of the army.
    Super Heavy Detachments come in 3-packs, although more sensibly I suppose it'd be an Auxiliary Super Heavy instead, allowing the selection of an individual tank. And Valkyries full of Melta Scions!

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Didnt expect it to be THAT far over the limit. Guess point costs really have changed huh?
    ~cut~
    But then again, the entirety of the excess point cost comes from the sponsons alone.
    Huh. Going back over my math I got mixed up a bit, it should've been 2,316 points. Meaning Forum Explorer's plan to cut (at least one of) the extraneous Super Heavies would be necessary. So, only ~300 points between editions, not six.

  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Misery Esquire View Post
    Huh. Going back over my math I got mixed up a bit, it should've been 2,316 points. Meaning Forum Explorer's plan to cut (at least one of) the extraneous Super Heavies would be necessary. So, only ~300 points between editions, not six.
    I mean, as mentioned the list minus sponsons is 1998 pts. You can strategic reserves the other Stormlord. Or do that and get the Tank Ace to make it Tallarn (SHAD units normally dont get regiments)

  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    I mean, as mentioned the list minus sponsons is 1998 pts. You can strategic reserves the other Stormlord. Or do that and get the Tank Ace to make it Tallarn (SHAD units normally dont get regiments)
    SHAD units don't get the regimental doctrine bonus, but they still gain the keyword and are eligible for stratagems.
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  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    9th Ed. 'Tactics':

    What is, actually up to you?
    1. Choose your army. Don't choose bad units. Make sure to take Secondaries into account.
    2. Read your opponent's army list. Read the Mission. Choose your Secondaries. Don't be bad. 1-2 Secondaries were potentially already chosen regardless of your opponent/Mission during list creation.
    3. Deploy to the Terrain; Make sure your shooty units have good firing lanes. Make sure your Melee units are in Dense and/or behind Obscuring Terrain, or in Reinforcements. In many metas - especially in and during tournaments - terrain placement is already decided and it's the same every game.

    4. That's it.
    Your army does what it was designed to do back in Step 1. Your army will win based on what you chose during Step 2. Your opponent is forced to play around what you chose to do in Step 3.

    5. Play the right Stratagems at the right time.

    6. The dice are gonna roll what they're gonna roll. During Steps 1 and 5 is when you can pick up re-rolls. But that's about it.


    7. Somehow believe that you lost at steps 5-6, but in reality you lost at steps 1-2 before you even knew who was going first.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-11-29 at 04:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    1000 point Space Wolves list

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    995/1000 points, 5 CP
    Battalion
    HQ: Bjorn the Fell-Handed (W)-180 points
    -Multi-melta

    Primaris Wolf Priest on bike -140 Points, 1 CP
    -Master of Sanctity, Wulfen Stone, Hero of the Chapter: Wise Orator
    -Mantra of Strength, Canticle of Hate

    Troops : 5x Infiltrators -120 points

    5x Incursors -105 points

    5x Incursors -105 points

    Elites: 3x Bladeguard Veteran -105 points

    Fast Attack: 4x Thunderwolf Cavalry -240 points
    -3x Powerfist+Storm Shield
    -Pack Leader with Powerfist+Stormshield


    Suggested improvements? I've got a few concerns/possible adjustments in mind that I'd like insight on

    -I really want to try out Bjorn's ability to use Wisdom of the Ancients to get both Rites of Battle and Tactical Precision on a single model, with a huge base and 9" aura to boot. But I worry he'll strugfle to keep up with the Faster units and concealed positions incursors.
    -Would a different relic/Litany combo be more practical on the biker chaplain? And is Hero of the Chapter+Master of Sanctity overkill?
    -The Infiltrators are there to bubble wrap Bjorn against melta-reserves shenanigans. But I'm worried they're not doing much else, even with Bjorn buffing them.
    -I'm kind of stumped on TWC loadouts. Is there a way to make them cheaper while still maintaining killing power?
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  13. - Top - End - #463
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    9th Ed. 'Tactics':

    What is, actually up to you?
    1. Choose your army. Don't choose bad units. Make sure to take Secondaries into account.
    2. Read your opponent's army list. Read the Mission. Choose your Secondaries. Don't be bad. 1-2 Secondaries were potentially already chosen regardless of your opponent/Mission during list creation.
    3. Deploy to the Terrain; Make sure your shooty units have good firing lanes. Make sure your Melee units are in Dense and/or behind Obscuring Terrain, or in Reinforcements. In many metas - especially in and during tournaments - terrain placement is already decided and it's the same every game.

    4. That's it.
    Your army does what it was designed to do back in Step 1. Your army will win based on what you chose during Step 2. Your opponent is forced to play around what you chose to do in Step 3.

    5. Play the right Stratagems at the right time.

    6. The dice are gonna roll what they're gonna roll. During Steps 1 and 5 is when you can pick up re-rolls. But that's about it.


    7. Somehow believe that you lost at steps 5-6, but in reality you lost at steps 1-2 before you even knew who was going first.
    I dont know whats new to 9th about steps 1 to 3. :s.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    I dont know whats new to 9th about steps 1 to 3. :s.
    Well, in 7th and 8th, we had a fun format called Maelstrom.
    You never knew when or even if you had to do something until you had to do it, and Kill Points were weighted a lot less than Objectives.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Well, in 7th and 8th, we had a fun format called Maelstrom.
    You never knew when or even if you had to do something until you had to do it, and Kill Points were weighted a lot less than Objectives.
    Sounds like a good example of things which seem like they offer a similar thing being radically different in play experience. Both secondary objectives and maelstrom are systems that ensure games donít always have the same objectives, but Maelstrom is certainly better because it requires you to react to it during the game. The various variants on Maelstrom over the course of 8th showed that there were a lot of ways it could be more or less satisfying depending on the amount of control players had, which proved difficult to get a balance that suited everyone (some people preferred true random choice, others liked being able to tailor their deck a bit, but if you tailor too much it gets too predictable).

    (Itís almost like uncertainty and randomness can improve the game if used in the right places)

    I wonder if there would be a way to introduce an element of this with secondaries, but suspect the wide disparity in secondary objectives would make it difficult: itís really easy to draw a secondary that is much harder to achieve than others, so youíre just putting a lot of emphasis on who draws the best objective to determine who wins. A few ideas though, based on systems Iíve seen elsewhere:
    1. Players get to choose the objective types (Purge the Enemy etc), but randomly determine the specific objective they get from within that type.
    2. Randomly determine the objective type you can use, but free choice of objective within them
    3. Each player gets to veto one type of objective that neither player can use in this game

    Iím not sure any of these particularly work unfortunately, they all have inherent problems. But interesting as a thought exercise in how the system could be mixed up a bit.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    The various variants on Maelstrom over the course of 8th showed that there were a lot of ways it could be more or less satisfying depending on the amount of control players had, which proved difficult to get a balance that suited everyone
    CA'18 Maelstrom suited everyone except ITC players.

    Since GW takes its balance critique from ITC, we get CA'19, which allows you to choose your win conditions based on your army. Except what it actually does was allow you to choose your army based on your win conditions...Just like the ITC already did.

    CA'19:
    "Make Eternal War more like Maelstrom; Make Malestrom more like ITC."

    9th Ed.:
    "Make 8th Ed. in its entirety, ITC."

    The writing was on the wall when 'that' White Dwarf came out in June or July.

    some people preferred true random choice, others liked being able to tailor their deck a bit, but if you tailor too much it gets too predictable
    Optional Discard good.
    Hard removal, bad.

    I wonder if there would be a way to introduce an element of this with secondaries...
    There's a lot you could do with the concept and idea of Secondary Objectives.
    You just can't do anything with the Secondary Objectives we actually got.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    There's a lot you could do with the concept and idea of Secondary Objectives.
    You just can't do anything with the Secondary Objectives we actually got.
    What if (spitballing here) Secondary Objectives were just worth a whole lot less. Enough to turn a close loss into a minor victory by outplaying the opponent on Secondaries or enough to turn a minor victory into a major one, but not enough to win the game outright. Instead of (from what I can tell) the good ones being a guaranteed 15 points, what if they capped at, say (numbers subject to change) 5 points? So that they're style points, tiebreakers, and a reward for really good play, rather than a basically-automatic win condition if you choose the right ones and don't have a bad faction matchup?

    Or outright purge the ones that reward you for doing the things you were going to do anyway. Have the big ones be rewards for taking risks in a thematic (to the faction) fashion.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    What if (spitballing here) Secondary Objectives were just worth a whole lot less. Enough to turn a close loss into a minor victory by outplaying the opponent on Secondaries or enough to turn a minor victory into a major one, but not enough to win the game outright. Instead of (from what I can tell) the good ones being a guaranteed 15 points, what if they capped at, say (numbers subject to change) 5 points? So that they're style points, tiebreakers, and a reward for really good play, rather than a basically-automatic win condition if you choose the right ones and don't have a bad faction matchup?

    Or outright purge the ones that reward you for doing the things you were going to do anyway. Have the big ones be rewards for taking risks in a thematic (to the faction) fashion.
    I would prefer that, but I feel the problem is more that a bunch of secondaries are just worse than what the ITC used to be. In fact, that's kinda the overarching problem with pretty much all of 9th's missions. It's like the ITC, but worse. Mostly because it has a lot less moving parts.

    ITC: You had 3 main scores. Killing, Holding, and Secondaries. Killing and Holding both had do it once, and do it more, so it was directly competing with your opponent at all times. Secondaries were well designed as they were continually updated to become so. What's more, is they were designed against strong armies. Was your army strong? Then there was pretty much a secondary designed to be picked against you. The only exception to that was they never really set anything up against Smite spam.

    9th: You have 2 Main scores. Holding and Secondaries. Holding is broken into Hold 1, Hold some, Hold more. However, since scoring happens at the start of the turn, hold more becomes a check on how many units you have remaining, since the maps are almost always parallel with an even number of objectives. The Secondaries are much worse, not only having entire factions not really give up any points, but as well having entire secondaries locked to being faction specific, making the disparity between good and bad secondaries even worse.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I would prefer that, but I feel the problem is more that a bunch of secondaries are just worse than what the ITC used to be. In fact, that's kinda the overarching problem with pretty much all of 9th's missions. It's like the ITC, but worse. Mostly because it has a lot less moving parts.

    ITC: You had 3 main scores. Killing, Holding, and Secondaries. Killing and Holding both had do it once, and do it more, so it was directly competing with your opponent at all times. Secondaries were well designed as they were continually updated to become so. What's more, is they were designed against strong armies. Was your army strong? Then there was pretty much a secondary designed to be picked against you. The only exception to that was they never really set anything up against Smite spam.

    9th: You have 2 Main scores. Holding and Secondaries. Holding is broken into Hold 1, Hold some, Hold more. However, since scoring happens at the start of the turn, hold more becomes a check on how many units you have remaining, since the maps are almost always parallel with an even number of objectives. The Secondaries are much worse, not only having entire factions not really give up any points, but as well having entire secondaries locked to being faction specific, making the disparity between good and bad secondaries even worse.
    Well that sucks. How much of a difference would moving scoring Holding (at least) to end of turn make? Or end of round (assuming I'm using those terms right--after both people have gone)? So if you're Player 1 and holding objectives, you have to not only hold them during your turn but during the other guy's turn as well.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Well that sucks. How much of a difference would moving scoring Holding (at least) to end of turn make? Or end of round (assuming I'm using those terms right--after both people have gone)? So if you're Player 1 and holding objectives, you have to not only hold them during your turn but during the other guy's turn as well.
    end of turn: be ObSec, run, cap. Disregard surviving, only CAP.

    end of round: cant contest if they are dead, alpha strike = only strike.

    The whole concept of 'board control' on a game where you cant shift people around by any means other than just killing them is broken.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Instead of (from what I can tell) the good ones being a guaranteed 15 points...
    The good ones aren't a guaranteed 15. The good ones are a guaranteed 8-12, with a potential for 15. Largely because your opponent usually can't prevent you from doing them because the good Secondaries that are guaranteed points are usually progressive as-you-do-them, or scored at the end of your turn...And also importantly, scored during Round 1.

    Meanwhile, the Primary Objectives are scored at the start of your next turn. Which means your opponent gets a whole one of their turns to prevent you from doing whatever you were doing. Sometimes they can, sometimes they can't. But the point is that sometimes they can. Your opponent can't stop you from good Secondaries. Additionally, Primaries can't be scored on Turn 1, which means that since there's nothing else to do; Alpha strike is the only strike, score those Secondaries as fast as you can. Turn 3 is too slow.

    Hence why LansXero put it the way he did:
    The Secondary Objectives are your Primary Objectives. The Primary Objectives are the tiebreaker.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Hence why LansXero put it the way he did:
    The Secondary Objectives are your Primary Objectives. The Primary Objectives are the tiebreaker.
    Awww. Glad someone remembers :v. I remember ranting about this whole secondaries situation long ago :p.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Well that sucks. How much of a difference would moving scoring Holding (at least) to end of turn make? Or end of round (assuming I'm using those terms right--after both people have gone)? So if you're Player 1 and holding objectives, you have to not only hold them during your turn but during the other guy's turn as well.
    It would shift the meta a fair bit, as cheaper becomes better than durable. So it would be a massive boost in power to Eldar, Imperial Guard, and Genestealer Cult. And likely others but those are the ones that jump out to me. It would also almost guarantee that you'd max out Primary pretty much every game, so Secondaries would become even more important.

    End of Round scoring means it'd likely mean that going second would be better than going first.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Hence why LansXero put it the way he did:
    The Secondary Objectives are your Primary Objectives. The Primary Objectives are the tiebreaker.
    And that's an indication of utterly screwed up design. Evident to even someone with only a theoretical knowledge of the game (read the rules, never really played). Good Jorb GW!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    And that's an indication of utterly screwed up design. Evident to even someone with only a theoretical knowledge of the game (read the rules, never really played). Good Jorb GW!
    Its a combination of things.

    Fun and Interactive terrain bring us to pot-shots around Obscuring / Dense; leading to focusing on hyper-survivable / efficient units. Blast, new coherence and the point rebalance means you cant survive by padding model count. So in that vein, it means you get to tie on Primaries (2 per, tiebreak with 'hold more' when you get lucky) because of a loop: if you can't bank on winning Primaries, you must have reliable, efficient secondaires; and because you have focused on reliable, efficiente secondaries AND SO HAS YOUR OPONENT you cant afford to fall behind and NOT tie on Primaries, so missing out on Hold 2 trying to get Hold more is a losing proposition (more so when you bring 'interesting' terrain into the mix.) So that means a stale meta of a repeated playstyle focused on... pretty much the latest Marine releases :v, or stuff on other factions that has a similar game plan.

    Basically, all of this is a condensation of 9th's stated design goals from the get go. Which, to me, were horrid, but lauded by the 'wait and see' crowd, who have now waited and hopefully are seeing.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    The whole concept of 'board control' on a game where you cant shift people around by any means other than just killing them is broken.
    QFT.

    What the game should be, is driving the enemy off objectives by getting into combat and forcing them to fail morale. Instead what we got was too many factions being immune to morale one way or another, and then they went and just flat turned it into "more killing". Everything since then has just been a grindfest.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    So what you're saying is you don't know how the list works and you're just assuming it's a static castle even though Ultramarines are designed around Rapid Fire and Assault weapons, explicitly being an army about mobile firepower?

    ...

    'Tactics' in 9th Ed., is reading your opponent's army list, and choosing the right Secondaries (and list-building).
    Once you've chosen your Secondaries, the vast majority of 'Tactics' is done. All's that's left is deploying to the terrain. But if you're in a meta where 'tournament terrain' is a general style, terrain is roughly going to be the same on every table regardless, so even deployment becomes elementary.

    ...

    Honestly, I know where you're at. I've been saying it myself. If Drukhari doesn't knock it out of the park, or there aren't drastic changes to the MSU meta, I'm likely to quit 40K sometime in 2021.
    In order:
    - Yes, I'm guessing since I haven't played a game of 9th, and only a single game of 8th (which I wasn't fond of).
    - That sounds terrible
    - That also sounds like it's not great

    On the last page, you're all complaining about how bad 9th is, so why has everything else been so positive? Is it 'cause nobody can get games in so people don't realise it's all hot garbage, or is everyone still drinking the "ITC is the best" koolaid and apparently 9th IS ITC, so they have every reason to think a non-interactive game where opposing lists have very little impact on your ability to max points every turn?

    From what I'm hearing, it would seem that 9th has doubled down on everything that I've been disliking about the direction 40k has gone over the last couple of years and it's unlikely to be worth coming back?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    so why has everything else been so positive?
    People who have what they want, are very, very, very happy - this includes Space Marines and Necron players.
    ...Did I mention that Space Marine players are happy? ...Which includes...Everyone?

    But I don't think it has? I think all the negative players have just left, creating a false echo chamber.

    Streamlining a lot of rules has people less confused. If the game is easy to play, it must be good.
    Newer = Gooder. It's just true.
    "I can see this becoming a good game. Don't **** your pants yet. Just wait and see." and/or "The framework is good."
    Anything is better than the garbage fire of late-8th Ed.

    Multiple Factions being able to play to the meta gives stats-people the ability to create a false narrative about Factions being competitive, when, in actuality, what's competitive is playstyles. "Ork players don't quit. You're at the top of the meta. Come back. Honest...Now that you're back, we need you to buy 3x3 Meganobz, 2x5 Mek Gunz, Ghazgkull, and a Kustom Force Field. And I guess you can throw in ~60 Boyz to give the illusion that you're playing Orks and not Space Marines."

    YouTubers give positive reviews for content. It was true in 8th Ed., and it's actually even more true, in 9th Ed. If YouTubers stop being positive, they stop receiving free content.

    "If Space Marines 'are the meta', why are Custodes and Sororitas better? Custodes and Sororitas don't have Space Marines written on the cover. If Space Marines 'are the meta', you're wrong. Boom. Checkmate, neckbeard."

    Is it 'cause nobody can get games in so people don't realise it's all hot garbage
    In Australia, and especially in QLD where we've been (relatively) COVID-free since Easter, I've been playing games the entire time because there has been no lockdown in our state since Good Friday.
    1. COVID means people can't try the game properly for themselves and see how unbalanced it is when you actually try more than not-at-all, and
    2. Casual players don't play games anyway, and don't try more than not-at-all, which means that even if they are playing games, they don't see how unbalanced it is. You can find it on YouTube, where two opposing armies will take the same Secondary Objectives and then I scream "WHY!?" at my monitor.

    so they have every reason to think a non-interactive game where opposing lists have very little impact on your ability to max points every turn?
    "If I just choose the right Secondaries, I can win the game."
    It's too bad you lost. Maybe if you made better choices, you can do it next time. Chin up, newb.

    I think it was Forum Explorer who suggested an Imperial Guard vs. Custodes game where by choosing the right Secondary, the Guard could get 8-9 Points off of that Secondary, because they weren't going to kill anything. Except if the Guard can't remove the Custodes' player's models, the Guard have already lost regardless. Because removing your opponents models is the easiest/best way to win the game - if your opponent doesn't have models on the board, they can't score points.

    Gentlemen's Agreement; "Yeah...I see what you're saying. But no-one would actually do that, right? And even if they did, well I just wouldn't play them. So nyeah!"
    If you tell your opponent what you arbitrarily think that they should be allowed to take, then there's no problem! Don't tailor your army - tailor your opponent's army...And your opponents!

    From what I'm hearing, [...] it's unlikely to be worth coming back?
    If you hated 8th Ed. ITC, then no.
    Unfortunately, you have to load that with qualifiers.

    Will GW release a CA'20 (I know they already did, but another one)?
    Will GW fix everything with January errata after everyone's bought stuff over the holidays?
    Will GW fix everything with April errata after the holiday season tournaments show that the meta is ****ed? (If those tournaments happen at all, and I don't think they will).

    The great thing with 'Wait and see', though, is that you can say it indefinitely and never be wrong.

    It's not good now.
    And they didn't fix it when they had the opportunity,
    Buuut...They have another opportunity soon, maybe they'll fix it then?
    And you just keep moving the goal posts as you get burned again and again.

    It will be good one day.
    "When is 'one day'?"
    One day, it will be good.
    "When is that, though?"
    ...One day. Soon. Probably. And if not soon, maybe later. Just wait and see...No but wait longer. Are you waiting? Still waiting? No, but keep waiting, we'll see...One day.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    People who have what they want, are very, very, very happy - this includes Space Marines and Necron players.
    ...Did I mention that Space Marine players are happy? ...Which includes...Everyone?

    But I don't think it has? I think all the negative players have just left, creating a false echo chamber.

    Streamlining a lot of rules has people less confused. If the game is easy to play, it must be good.
    Newer = Gooder. It's just true.
    "I can see this becoming a good game. Don't **** your pants yet. Just wait and see." and/or "The framework is good."
    Anything is better than the garbage fire of late-8th Ed.

    Multiple Factions being able to play to the meta gives stats-people the ability to create a false narrative about Factions being competitive, when, in actuality, what's competitive is playstyles. "Ork players don't quit. You're at the top of the meta. Come back. Honest...Now that you're back, we need you to buy 3x3 Meganobz, 2x5 Mek Gunz, Ghazgkull, and a Kustom Force Field. And I guess you can throw in ~60 Boyz to give the illusion that you're playing Orks and not Space Marines."

    YouTubers give positive reviews for content. It was true in 8th Ed., and it's actually even more true, in 9th Ed. If YouTubers stop being positive, they stop receiving free content.

    "If Space Marines 'are the meta', why are Custodes and Sororitas better? Custodes and Sororitas don't have Space Marines written on the cover. If Space Marines 'are the meta', you're wrong. Boom. Checkmate, neckbeard."



    In Australia, and especially in QLD where we've been (relatively) COVID-free since Easter, I've been playing games the entire time because there has been no lockdown in our state since Good Friday.
    1. COVID means people can't try the game properly for themselves and see how unbalanced it is when you actually try more than not-at-all, and
    2. Casual players don't play games anyway, and don't try more than not-at-all, which means that even if they are playing games, they don't see how unbalanced it is. You can find it on YouTube, where two opposing armies will take the same Secondary Objectives and then I scream "WHY!?" at my monitor.



    "If I just choose the right Secondaries, I can win the game."
    It's too bad you lost. Maybe if you made better choices, you can do it next time. Chin up, newb.

    I think it was Forum Explorer who suggested an Imperial Guard vs. Custodes game where by choosing the right Secondary, the Guard could get 8-9 Points off of that Secondary, because they weren't going to kill anything. Except if the Guard can't remove the Custodes' player's models, the Guard have already lost regardless. Because removing your opponents models is the easiest/best way to win the game - if your opponent doesn't have models on the board, they can't score points.

    Gentlemen's Agreement; "Yeah...I see what you're saying. But no-one would actually do that, right? And even if they did, well I just wouldn't play them. So nyeah!"
    If you tell your opponent what you arbitrarily think that they should be allowed to take, then there's no problem! Don't tailor your army - tailor your opponent's army...And your opponents!



    If you hated 8th Ed. ITC, then no.
    Unfortunately, you have to load that with qualifiers.

    Will GW release a CA'20 (I know they already did, but another one)?
    Will GW fix everything with January errata after everyone's bought stuff over the holidays?
    Will GW fix everything with April errata after the holiday season tournaments show that the meta is ****ed? (If those tournaments happen at all, and I don't think they will).

    The great thing with 'Wait and see', though, is that you can say it indefinitely and never be wrong.

    It's not good now.
    And they didn't fix it when they had the opportunity,
    Buuut...They have another opportunity soon, maybe they'll fix it then?
    And you just keep moving the goal posts as you get burned again and again.

    It will be good one day.
    "When is 'one day'?"
    One day, it will be good.
    "When is that, though?"
    ...One day. Soon. Probably. And if not soon, maybe later. Just wait and see...No but wait longer. Are you waiting? Still waiting? No, but keep waiting, we'll see...One day.
    I still don't understand why they dropped Maelstrom altogether. I may not have liked that game mode as much as Eternal War, but it was still fun, and I know a lot of people preferred it. Honestly, right now it feels like the game is ITC but worse, and Old Narrative/Eternal War (Crusade) missions.


    But I feel it's more about your latter point. No one is really talking about the bad, because they aren't playing games right now. While we still get the positive rave reviews.


    Also to be exact, I was saying Guardsmen weren't going to do anything to Custodes with their Lasguns. They might chip off a wound here or there, but that's not really enough. That doesn't mean Imperial Guard doesn't have the tools to kill Custodes, it's just not the basic trooper who is doing it. So the Guardsmen might as well perform actions instead.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I still don't understand why they dropped Maelstrom altogether. I may not have liked that game mode as much as Eternal War, but it was still fun, and I know a lot of people preferred it.
    I liked Eternal War, when it became Maelstrom, in CA'19. That's what I was playing in my non-lockdowned state until 9th Ed. hit.
    I hated Maelstrom, when it became ITC, in CA'19.

    Honestly, right now it feels like the game is ITC but worse, and Old Narrative/Eternal War (Crusade) missions.
    But we 'waited and saw' on Crusade and Pariah Nexus, the Space Marines and Necrons Codex is out. We see the template for Crusade, in actuality. No more potential, now. Actual.
    We know what Crusade is now. It's the best thing ever, right?
    ...RIGHT!?

    But I feel it's more about your latter point. No one is really talking about the bad, because they aren't playing games right now. While we still get the positive rave reviews.
    But there are people playing games. Maybe not in massive tournaments. But they are playing in their homes. They are having 'Gatherings of up to 5 people in a private residence', etc. I mentioned earlier about a 'tournament' in my meta where a guy has 10 people over and they play a 'tournament' in his farm shed. People are absolutely playing games. Outside of 'postitive Codex review pre-order buy now week'; 'Real' people get their hands on the Codex and give their thoughts.

    I've only ever bought the ETB 3-pack of Reivers for Kill Team.
    I have never, in my life, put a unit of Reivers on the board in a game of real 40K.
    They were the worst unit in the Codex in 8th Ed., and I'm pretty sure they're the worst unit in 9th Ed., too...Though if you call me on that I wouldn't be able to tell you what is the worst unit in the Codex, if not Reivers, off the top of my head. Rules bloat means that there are lots of good units in the Space Marine book, and there are lots of bad units, too.

    How do I know that Reivers are bad if I've never used them?
    How could I possibly know!? That's not possible!

    What we have, is the 'playtest crowd'. People who can't read good, who can't play games, deny what's happening because they haven't done it themselves, yet. Lots of these kinds of people are in the UK and the US and make up the largest markets, who both have rolling lockdowns. There are massive sections on the internet, who may or may not agree that the game is bad. But, they can't come out and positively say so one way or the other, because who knows? Maybe they'll have fun, despite the badness?
    ('A Fun Game' and 'A Good Game' are not the same thing, but a lot of people will say Fun and Good are the same thing, but then also refuse to accept that Winning Is Fun.)

    The game is neither good nor bad 'until they play it for themselves'. But they want the game to be good, despite not being able to play it.

    (I don't need to drink bleach 'for myself' to agree that it's probably a bad idea to do so, but here we are.)

    That doesn't mean Imperial Guard doesn't have the tools to kill Custodes...
    Part of the problem is that they don't, though.
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