Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Cheesegear]

I'm opposed to that on behalf of all those Space Marine players who stubbornly refuse to buy Primaris Marines.

But does that mean that those players will buy Firstborn?
Judging from what I've seen, the people who refuse to buy into Primaris Marines already left the hobby sometime in the last three years. They did not end up buying more Firstborn to make up the difference in power.

By not buying Primaris Marines, you are of course buying more Firstborn that you don't already have? Right?

"I refuse to buy Primaris Marines."
Cool. So what you're gonna do now, is buy 15-30 Scouts (in 8e, this is), Sternguard/Vanguard, 2+ units of Devastators and 2+ Thunderfire Cannons. Those are all Firstborn units, and all of them are very good. This goes double for any Chapter that aren't Codex Marines - like Space Wolves and Deathwatch, who rely on their non-Primaris units to form the backbones of their army. You can absolutely run an all-Firstborn army (in 8e).
"Well, no. I just wont buy anything."
Oh, okay. You already have an army, and you're mad that it's not good anymore (likely Tactical Squad and Drop Pod/Razorback based) - or has at least been superseded* - and by refusing to buy Primaris Marines, what you mean is that you're refusing to buy new models?

...

Or at least, have a bunch of Firstborn units that they just like and refuse to switch off of.

...Debunked this one time and time again. GW's business model is to invalidate what you already have (Scouts are Elites. If you didn't buy Primaris Troops during 8e, well, in 9e you kind of have to.)
The money you've spent, you've already spent. GW needs you to spend more.

Primaris Marines aren't a 'lost sale', because that person wasn't buying in the first place, because they already have what they own.

And of course, there is the ever present group of people who just don't have the money to update the reason.

a) Not actually a lost sale, and
b) If you want to update, but can't, that's an issue with GW's pricing.

inb4; Of course, less players means less games, and less games means the hobby dies, and it's actually in GW's interests - if not directly so - to cater to people who already have Firstborn and refuse to buy new models, because at least those people with Firstborn can still play games and do stealth-marketing for the hobby. I get it.

Though actually, I kinda do like the idea, because than I imagine most Firstborn units would just be considered 'count as' their Primaris equivalent.

In M42.100, all Firstborn have at least a century of combat experience, minimum, and of course, it's not like there are any new ones. Non-Veteran Firstborn (or at the very least, non-Specialists) just shouldn't exist at this time in the fluff if GW was serious about it.

*Tactical Marines have 2 Wounds now, they compare decently to Intercessors now! ...No. No they really don't.

[Forum Explorer]

But does that mean that those players will buy Firstborn?
Judging from what I've seen, the people who refuse to buy into Primaris Marines already left the hobby sometime in the last three years. They did not end up buying more Firstborn to make up the difference in power.

By not buying Primaris Marines, you are of course buying more Firstborn that you don't already have? Right?

"I refuse to buy Primaris Marines."
Cool. So what you're gonna do now, is buy 15-30 Scouts (in 8e, this is), Sternguard/Vanguard, 2+ units of Devastators and 2+ Thunderfire Cannons. Those are all Firstborn units, and all of them are very good. This goes double for any Chapter that aren't Codex Marines - like Space Wolves and Deathwatch, who rely on their non-Primaris units to form the backbones of their army.
"Well, no. I just wont buy anything."
Oh, okay. You already have an army, and you're mad that it's not good anymore - or has at least been superseded - and by refusing to buy Primaris Marines, what you mean is that you're refusing to buy new models?

...



...Debunked this one time and time again. GW's business model is to invalidate what you already have.
The money you've spent, you've already spent. GW needs you to spend more.

Primaris Marines aren't a 'lost sale', because that person wasn't buying in the first place, because they already have what they own.



a) Not actually a lost sale, and
b) If you want to update, but can't, that's an issue with GW's pricing.

inb4; Of course, less players means less games, and less games means the hobby dies, and it's actually in GW's interests - if not directly so - to cater to people who already have Firstborn and refuse to buy new models, because at least those people with Firstborn can still play games and do stealth-marketing for the hobby. I get it.



In M42.100, all Firstborn have at least a century of combat experience, minimum, and of course, it's not like there are any new ones. Non-Veteran Firstborn (or at the very least, non-Specialists) just shouldn't exist at this time in the fluff if GW was serious about it.

From GW's perspective, their current path is the best. Writing rules for Firstborn doesn't cost that much really. They'll still move the occasional box of Firstborn (yes, it does happen. Not often, and it's never a good decision on part of the player but hey) so they clear out some extra stock, and they don't drive away the players who hate Primaris but like Space Marines. Or can't afford the new Primaris stuff, but still have a bunch of Firstborn.

Deleting the Firstborn from the game doesn't really provide any benefits besides adhering to fluff better, which they've always only kept as a rough guideline than a goal to aim for.

[Cheesegear]

Deleting the Firstborn from the game doesn't really provide any benefits besides adhering to fluff better...

Tell that to my 208-page Codex.
Rules Bloat for Space Marines at this stage is rather insane.

[hamishspence]

Because non-Veteran Firstborn no longer make sense in the current fluff.

Sure they do. Just because chapters can create Primaris now, doesn't mean that all chapters have completely stopped creating Firstborn. Some 8e material has specifically stated that some chapters only implant a portion of their new recruits as Primaris - and so the remainder are implanted as Firstborn.

Others (especially Crusading chapters) may simply have been isolated from the Imperial bureaucracy for decades.



In addition, being a Veteran isn't something you automatically become at 100. It's more associated with being transferred into the 1st Company, generally speaking (though there are exceptions, such as with the Dark Angels). Sometimes the 1st Company just isn't attriting that quickly, so people don't end up being transferred into it from the Battle Companies, so serve for quite a bit longer than usual.

If you dig into the fluff, it's not unheard of for regular Tactical marines to be 300 or more.

[Cheesegear]

Some 8e material...

What?

In addition, being a Veteran [is more] associated with being transferred into the 1st Company

You're right. A white - or Company-coloured - helmet - or similar markings (e.g; White Scars) - can be given to anyone. In the first Company or not. We're agreed?

Spoiler

Show

though there are exceptions

All Companies can potentially have Company Veterans, usually serving as the Captain's - or Chaplain's - Command Squad, seconds, and bodyguards. Often becoming Lieutenants-in-training, and spread throughout the Company as Sergeants. Sometimes a Company has so many 'Veterans' in it that they form their own cool kids' club that they form their own squad with their Captain's approval. Many Companies even have their own Company Champion whom they put forward during Chapter-wide celebrations and contests.

If you're explicitly talking about Sternguard and Vanguard, yes, they are 1st Company. But 'Veteran' is simply an honourific, given to anyone.

EDIT:
I realise that what I want, not shockingly at all, is Deathwatch; Who now consist of Primaris Marines and Veteran Firstborn only.

[Forum Explorer]

Tell that to my 208-page Codex.
Rules Bloat for Space Marines at this stage is rather insane.

Benefit to GW. More pages just means they can brag more about providing you with more information.

[hamishspence]

Some 8e material has specifically stated that some chapters only implant a portion of their new recruits as Primaris - and so the remainder are implanted as Firstborn.

What?

Specifically, Codex Space Marines 8e, 2nd edition, page 20.

The Indoctrinated (Chapters making new Primaris marines)
...
So the process began. Some Chapters implanted all of their aspirants with the full suite of Primaris organs, while others gifted only a portion of their novitiates in this fashion. These newly conditioned battle-brothers benefited not only from the strength of their Primaris enhancement, but also from the tactical versatility imparted by a full and rounded progression through the ranks, coupled with all the cultural and spiritual indoctrination required to properly initiate the neophytes into their Chapter.

A white - or Company-coloured - helmet - or similar markings (e.g; White Scars) - can be given to anyone. In the first Company or not. We're agreed?

Spoiler

Show

Regarding Veterans and 1st Company - the fluff for Bladeguard Veterans is in the 1st Company section. Combined with the fact that Dark Angel Bladeguard automatically get the Deathwing keyword, it's safe to say that they are the Primaris version of Terminator Squads, Vanguard Veteran Squads, etc.

Plus, in their unit entry, it says "Members of their chapter's elite 1st Company of Veterans."

Interestingly, the example White Scars Bladeguard veteran has a red helmet - same as White Scars Vanguard Veterans.

At least by default, "Company Veterans" of the Ultramarines, of the kind that are used as Command Squads, don't normally get the white helmet. GW Studio's Firstborn Command Squads normally have the same helmet colour as line battle brothers.

[9mm]

I am happy that Heavy Intercessors cost 28 Points and don't break the entire Codex, and don't replace Devastators-with-Grav-Cannons.
That being said, something probably should replace Devastators-with-Grav-Cannons, that, or give Grav-Cannons a hard nerf.
No idea what the solution is.
Maybe GW should just pull the trigger and get rid of Firstborn units that don't have the Veteran tag?
Because non-Veteran Firstborn no longer make sense in the current fluff.

Posted from phone.

I'm still shocked we didn't end up with a second weapon option for Suppressors, I was positive they'd get either las-talons or a grav option.

edit: also am I blind or is there only 2 units with access to melta bombs?

[Squark]

I'm still shocked we didn't end up with a second weapon option for Suppressors, I was positive they'd get either las-talons or a grav option.

edit: also am I blind or is there only 2 units with access to melta bombs?

I count 3; Vanguard Vets, Assault Squads, and Tactical Squads.

[HoldTheLine31]

Speaking of Melta Bomb carrying units are Assault Squads still trash since Vanguard exist or is there now a point to taking them?

I'm also finally nearing the final third of the pile of shame, thanks lock down, and it includes a hellblaster box and several intercessor boxes.
Considering the new codex and all and never having played SM can any of the more experienced SM players offer some advice?

On the Intercessors I'm thinking about a mix of ABR and normal rifle squads, but am stumped on how to equip the sarge - power sword, fist or leave it cheap and cheerful with a chain sword?

As for the Hellblasters is the heavy plasma now worth considering, D3 and S9 seem to be quite nice for AT/anti elite, or is the rapid fire version still the way to go?

[Squark]

Speaking of Melta Bomb carrying units are Assault Squads still trash since Vanguard exist or is there now a point to taking them?

Nope!

I'm also finally nearing the final third of the pile of shame, thanks lock down, and it includes a hellblaster box and several intercessor boxes.
Considering the new codex and all and never having played SM can any of the more experienced SM players offer some advice?

On the Intercessors I'm thinking about a mix of ABR and normal rifle squads, but am stumped on how to equip the sarge - power sword, fist or leave it cheap and cheerful with a chain sword?

As for the Hellblasters is the heavy plasma now worth considering, D3 and S9 seem to be quite nice for AT/anti elite, or is the rapid fire version still the way to go?

1) Pourquoi non les trois? Magnets are very handy. If you have to choose, I'd go with chainswords and save the power swords/power fists for any Assault Intercessors. Also, I'd lean towards stalker bolt rifles and the classic bolt rifle over auto bolt rifles in an MEQ meta.
2) Eradicators are better for anti tank unless GW over corrects on the next point change. I'd stick with the standard option.

[Cheesegear]

Specifically, Codex Space Marines 8e...

I don't know what that is.

Regarding Veterans and 1st Company - the fluff for Bladeguard Veterans is in the 1st Company section.

So GW made a mistake on their paint jobs? lol. My point was correct, if my example wasn't (but my example was something GW themselves, did, so lol).
Alright, Veteran Intercessors and Company Veterans.

Speaking of Melta Bomb carrying units are Assault Squads still trash since Vanguard exist or is there now a point to taking them?

Assault Squads are still bad, yes.

On the Intercessors I'm thinking about a mix of ABR and normal rifle squads

Depends on your Chapter.
Assault Bolt Rifles are only good if you plan on doing something with them, or have some kind of ability that improves Bolt weapons or you have some kind of proc that gets better, the more dice you roll (e.g; Storm of Fire Warlord Trait). Bolt Rifles and Stalker Bolt Rifles, are where it's at. That being said, there is something for shooting twice, and Assault Bolt Rifles becoming Assault 3x2. But, in the current meta, which looks like 'All Space Marines, all the time, for the next 6 months (and a few players who like Necrons for some reason)', AP[dash] is trash.

but am stumped on how to equip the sarge - power sword, fist or leave it cheap and cheerful with a chain sword?

What is the likelihood of your regular Intercessors being in Melee? Will it be your choice, or are you in a meta where being in Melee is your opponent's choice?
There is no reason not to take a Chainsword.
If you're going to get into Melee at some point, take a Power Fist.

As for the Hellblasters is the heavy plasma now worth considering

Plasma is less viable now because Supercharging is now more mandatory to do. You're much, much better off using a weapon that simply does a flat 2 Damage (like Heavy- and Stalker Bolters). Heavy Plasmas look good, until you see the Heavy 1, and 'paying points to miss'. The Rapid Fire is better, yes. But ultimately, Hellblasters aren't good no matter what you give them.

[hamishspence]

So GW made a mistake on their paint jobs?

What mistake? White helmets are standard for Imperial Fists terminators - so Imperial Fists Bladeguard having white helmets and being in the First Company, wouldn't be a mistake.

Some chapters don't give their terminators white helmets though, or only give them white helmets sometimes.

If you're thinking of the shoulder trim - that can be rationalised as "Sometimes attached units from other companies, repaint parts of their armour, to suit the company they've been temporarily attached to".

After all, it is very common for Tactical Squad Veteran Sergeants to have been transferred from the 1st company, back to one of the Battle Companies to lead those Tactical squads. And they always repaint their shoulder armour to match their company when they do so.

I don't know what that is.

It is the second version of Codex Space Marines released, between the release of the 8e 40K rules, and the 9e 40K rules.

Alright, Veteran Intercessors and Company Veterans.

Back in 8e, Veteran Intercessors (Intercessor squads benefiting from the Veteran Intercessor stratagem) were typically described as members of the 1st company and given white shoulder trim. The 8e Imperial Fists supplement did it this way.

Though that might have been due to the fact that this was the only way to represent Primaris 1st Company and make them mechanically distinct, before the introduction of Bladeguard.

[Cheesegear]

More Space Marines!

Spoiler: Troops

Show

Intercessor Squad: The standard Space Marine; T4, 3+ Save with 2 Wounds, at a nice-and-even 20 Points. Their standard ranged weapon comes stock at AP-1, to make every model they attack, slightly worse, and at 30" range with Bolter Discipline, Intercessors happen to be one of the better Troops in the game. Their options, are also incredibly good; Auto Bolt Rifles lose the AP, but gain Assault 3, which is very strong under Chapters that improve Bolt weapons (e.g; Imperial Fists). Alternatively, Intercessors can be equipped with an AP-2, 2D (again, Bolt) weapon, that's really strong under any Chapter that improves Heavy weapons (e.g; Iron Hands).

• Sergeant; Always take a Chainsword, there's literally no reason not to. If you're desperate to get your Intercessors into Melee, or you believe that your meta is melee-heavy, always bring a Power Fist where it's available.
• Rapid Fire (2 CPs). Remember that Rapid Fire doesn't refer to Rapid Fire weapons. It refers to the unit. Your Stalkers are shooting twice, and your Assault 3 Auto Bolt Rifles, are now Assault 6, and of course your Astartes Grenade Launcher - or Hand Flamer - can shoot twice. It's pretty good. But at 2 CPs, it's probably not a good idea to base your whole list around Rapid Firing Intercessors.

Assault Intercessors: "We can't give Intercessors an option for Chainswords, whole new Datasheet!" Costing 1 Point less than regular Intercessors, having 3 Attacks each makes them better at Melee than almost every other Troop in the game, if Troop-on-Troop violence is your thing, then yeah. Good, job. However, being that this is the Space Marine Codex, if you want Melee units, you really, really should be looking elsewhere unless you're White Scars or Raven Guard. Alternatively, if you have bonuses to Charge (e.g; Black Templars), it's always worth remembering that you can place Assault Intercessors into Reserves and have them Outflank.

• Sergeant; The only upgrade is to a Power Fist. Same as the regular Intercessors before them.
• Honour the Chapter (2 CPs). Your only unit in the book that can Fight twice. If this is your plan, please make sure that you brought a Power Fist.

Heavy Intercessors: T5 and 3 Wounds in the Troops slot is incredibly good (just ask Custodes!), since D2 weapons no longer kill you outright and get sad. S5, AP-1 in the Troops slot is incredibly strong, especially since you're Space Marines, and AP-1 turns into AP-2 for no real reason. Multi-Damage weapons, as standard, in the Troops slot is exceptional. All of those things together, at only 28 Points each, they're just one of the best units in the Codex. The only thing they lack, is an Invulnerable save (See; a Librarian). Heavy Intercessors can also pick up a Heavy Bolter, giving them access to Hellfire Shells, which is really strong, when required. It will always be worth having at least one model in your army that can pop Hellfire Shells, and here's a really good unit!

• Unyielding in the Face of the Foe. For only 1 CP? To give yourself a 2+ Sv. against garbage weapons means that your unit will actually need dedicated firepower to drop it down, rather than just peppering your Heavy Intercessors with Lasguns and Boltguns and having them fall down. Remember to try and be in Cover for the sweet 1+ Save. Or just be Salamanders or Iron Hands. You know what to do.

Infiltrators: Concealed Positions. Okay. This unit is bad... But necessary... Maybe? This unit has a worse gun than Intercessors-with-Auto Bolt Rifles, and Auto Bolt Rifles aren't even that good. What you're really looking at, with this unit, is the same reason you look at the Phobos Captain. Concealed Positions + Omni-Scrambler is a potent combination that quite potentially has the ability to shaft your opponent pretty hard. Since, while the Phobos Captain is only a single model, a 5-man Infiltrator squad can have a not-insignificant footprint, where that 12" no-enemy Reinforcements bubble can actually be quite large and may help protect a lot of your units. However, at 124 Points minimum, you have to be aware that that's what you're paying for. Since they're no better than any other Primaris Marine, and, as mentioned, their guns are simply weaksauce, even with the free wounds, because AP- just isn't good, and 1 Damage just doesn't factor into the meta anymore.

Incursors: Concealed Positions. Ignore Cover, ignore (negative) modifiers to hit with their ranged attacks. At 21 Points, compared to an Assault Intercessor's 19, Incursors lose the +1A from Astartes Chainswords - but they keep the AP-1. In return, they get to deploy using Concealed Positions and get Engaged on Turn 1, popping Gene-Wrought Might if necessary. A fairly solid unit, if that's what you're into (e.g; Blood Angels, Space Wolves).

Tactical Squad: "Just pay the 2 Points for Intercessors." Joking...Also not joking. Same statline as Intercessors, but their guns aren't as good and you can't use Stratagems on them. So what's the point? Generally speaking, in a Tactical Squad, there are only two models that matter; The guy with the Heavy or Special Weapon (28 Points...Where have I seen that number?), and the Sergeant, carrying a Combi-Weapon - also 28 Points. What are the other three models doing? I uh oh *shrug* Tactical Squads just aren't very good. Tactical Squads are, however, what you can run in your meta if you're feeling...Charitable. Since, at the end of the day, they are Space Marines, and good. They just can't use the tools that make them very good:

• Can't Fight twice,
• Can't Shoot twice,
• Can't ignore 3s to wound,
• Can't get a 2+ Save,
• Can't get put into Reinforcements or Redeploy
• Can't pick up -1 to hit.
• They are, however, one of the few units in the Codex that can use Melta Bombs...Except that you should use one of the other of the few units to do it, since those units actually want to be in Melee.

[Squark]

Where are you getting +1 strength for Astrates chainswords when you talk about Incursors?

[Cheesegear]

Where are you getting +1 strength for Astrates chainswords when you talk about Incursors?

...I don't know.

[LansXero]

So after absolutely roflstomping an innocent guy with a rain of daemons, Summoning got nerfed in our Crusade campaign. Understandably, of course.

Spoiler: Fair and Balanced, 25 PL

Show

Thats at the end of Turn 3, having started with roughly 500 points on the table

But since my roster is now useless I've forfeited both the last games :v.

Next week we play again with 50 PL. I can toss everything out and get whatever in, so long as I dont go over the PL req. and stick to the chosen faction (Chaos Space Marines, ugh)

Any ideas whats fun to play in CSM at 1000 points aprox. that doesnt suck? Both of the things I wanna play (Dev. Battery gunline and daemon engines with triple disco lord) dont work until 2k points, if at that.

[Forum Explorer]

So after absolutely roflstomping an innocent guy with a rain of daemons, Summoning got nerfed in our Crusade campaign. Understandably, of course.

Spoiler: Fair and Balanced, 25 PL

Show

Thats at the end of Turn 3, having started with roughly 500 points on the table

But since my roster is now useless I've forfeited both the last games :v.

Next week we play again with 50 PL. I can toss everything out and get whatever in, so long as I dont go over the PL req. and stick to the chosen faction (Chaos Space Marines, ugh)

Any ideas whats fun to play in CSM at 1000 points aprox. that doesnt suck? Both of the things I wanna play (Dev. Battery gunline and daemon engines with triple disco lord) dont work until 2k points, if at that.

Knowing that summoning was broken, and understanding that breaking it would likely get it nerfed, why didn't you propose nerfing it from the get go?

[LeSwordfish]

Seems a little cruel of your friends to de facto ban your roster and not let you re-pick to respond to that for your last few games.

[Dragonus45]

Knowing that summoning was broken, and understanding that breaking it would likely get it nerfed, why didn't you propose nerfing it from the get go?

I believe they did, and that army was their way of making the point more thoroughly.

[Blackhawk748]

Knowing that summoning was broken, and understanding that breaking it would likely get it nerfed, why didn't you propose nerfing it from the get go?

He did but they didn't go for it. He was proving a point.

[Forum Explorer]

He did but they didn't go for it. He was proving a point.

Ah. Well if that's what it takes I suppose.

[Blackhawk748]

Ah. Well if that's what it takes I suppose.

It's definitely the nuclear option, but hey, if that's what it takes to point out to everyone how broken Summoning is.

[LansXero]

Yeah, its somewhere in the last thread, but they were like 'nah summons dont level up so its balanced'. Even after that picture was posted to the discord there was a bit of resistance (because they thought it was game's end). Once they realized it was just Turn 3 and I actually stop summoning stuff because I ran out of space, it was clear it had to go

Well, they didnt wanna let me repick until we reread the rules and there is no 'letting', crusade lets you reshuffle your entire roster at whim so long as you dont keep anything (so good bye relic and WTs). Its in the book so it must be fair :v.

So, suggestions?

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, its somewhere in the last thread, but they were like 'nah summons dont level up so its balanced'. Even after that picture was posted to the discord there was a bit of resistance (because they thought it was game's end). Once they realized it was just Turn 3 and I actually stop summoning stuff because I ran out of space, it was clear it had to go

Well, they didnt wanna let me repick until we reread the rules and there is no 'letting', crusade lets you reshuffle your entire roster at whim so long as you dont keep anything (so good bye relic and WTs). Its in the book so it must be fair :v.

So, suggestions?

Uh... Chosen Special Weapon spam?

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, its somewhere in the last thread, but they were like 'nah summons dont level up so its balanced'. Even after that picture was posted to the discord there was a bit of resistance (because they thought it was game's end). Once they realized it was just Turn 3 and I actually stop summoning stuff because I ran out of space, it was clear it had to go

Well, they didnt wanna let me repick until we reread the rules and there is no 'letting', crusade lets you reshuffle your entire roster at whim so long as you dont keep anything (so good bye relic and WTs). Its in the book so it must be fair :v.

So, suggestions?

I've always wanted to see if Red Corsairs running Berserkers was any good. Take Huron and/or a Sorcerer, cast Warp Time on a unit so it can make a first turn charge. Get 3 min squads of CSM for the extra CP.

[Cheesegear]

When the second Chaos Space Marines' book came out in 8e, I didn't pick it up and my knowledge went out the window.
When...Whatever Chaos got in Psychic Awakening came out, I was even less interested.
...Then 9e came out and the sky was the limit!
...And then the Loyalist Space Marine Codex came out giving everything +1W, which Chaos...Just didn't get.

I don't even know what Chaos even do anymore.

My first thought is
a) Sorcerer and minimum Cultists, and
b) Elites/Heavy choices with 2 Wounds that deal 2 Damage, but I don't know what those would be.

Can Red Corsair Bikers still Advance and Charge on Turn 1? 'Cause do that.

[hamishspence]

Regarding 9e Codex bloat, at least part of it isn't just the new entries - it's splitting up old entries that had been merged in the past. Predator Annihilator and Predator Destructor. LS Typhoon and LS Tornado no longer being in the LS entry, but separate entries.

Possibly this is because of the "Rule of 3" - so you can have more of them than you could before?

[DaedalusMkV]

When the second Chaos Space Marines' book came out in 8e, I didn't pick it up and my knowledge went out the window.
When...Whatever Chaos got in Psychic Awakening came out, I was even less interested.
...Then 9e came out and the sky was the limit!
...And then the Loyalist Space Marine Codex came out giving everything +1W, which Chaos...Just didn't get.

I don't even know what Chaos even do anymore.

My first thought is
a) Sorcerer and minimum Cultists, and
b) Elites/Heavy choices with 2 Wounds that deal 2 Damage, but I don't know what those would be.

Can Red Corsair Bikers still Advance and Charge on Turn 1? 'Cause do that.

You bet they can. Red Corsairs are the turn 1 charge faction. Aside from that...

Helbrutes are quite good at melee, especially in Red Corsairs. Move 8" plus advance and charge gives them a very decent threat range, and with Fist/Scourge they rip both tanks and multiwound infantry *cough Marines cough* to pieces very efficiently.

Obliterator spam is still a thing. Many shots, kill Marines good-like, maybe vehicles too, and they're reasonably tough with 4 Wounds, T5 and Terminator saves. Stratagem to shoot twice if they're Slaanesh. Can't go wrong, as long as you're willing to spend some CPs on rerolls to make sure that they never roll a 1 for Damage.

Emperor's Children can make... One unit of Noise Marines... Hilariously deadly? Especially to 2W models, thanks to getting 6 shots per model at +1 to Hit, +1 to Wound, +1 Damage, AP1 Ignores Cover. Requires you to throw around a lot of Command Points, though. Like, 4 per turn to do that. And any other squads you have are nothing special.

... Otherwise, yeah. Daemon Engines give up a lot of secondary points and are a bit fragile against Marine anti-tank. And CSM infantry are basically just worse versions of Loyalist infantry right now. Trust me. I've got a friend who's really into Blood Angels. The number of times we've compared units and come to the conclusion that the Blood Angel version is just superior in every way for very few more points is not comfortable. Most 8e tourney CSM were all-in on stacking negative to hit modifiers, and that... Does not work anymore.

[Cheesegear]

You bet they can. Red Corsairs are the turn 1 charge faction. Aside from that...

Yeah, I knew they were, but I don't know whether or not that had been taken out of the options, yet.

Obliterator spam is still a thing.

I guess in context, we're dealing with Lans' Crusade list, which is low PL/Points - and by extension, low CPs - so I'm trying to recall economical options whilst trying to not make it blatantly obvious that I'm woefully out of touch when it comes to Chaos Space Marines. I remember Red Corsair Bikers with a Power Fist dominating small tables at the tail-end of 8th.

...If we were talking about Death Guard I'd know exactly what to do. But that's not the same.

Otherwise, yeah. Daemon Engines give up a lot of secondary points and are a bit fragile against Marine anti-tank.

Las already said Daemon Engines were out. Again, likely due to points.

And CSM infantry are basically just worse versions of Loyalist infantry right now.

Again, I'm angry that Heretic Astartes didn't get a +1W update. Which is bizarre, because GW did exactly that at the back-end of 8th Ed., when Space Marines got a new Codex, but Dark Angels and Space Wolves and Blood Angels, didn't, so GW published a document (e.g; Remember when Aggressors got +1W and became the best unit in the Dark Angels Codex?). We know GW can do this. And we know that giving Heretic Astartes +1W is the plan. But, once again, they simply choose not to 'for reasons'.