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  1. - Top - End - #271
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Anything that isn't Troops, that becomes Troops by way of the Kill Team rules.
    And of course I'm waiting for Centurion Devastators to get nerfed so that Centurion Devastator Sergeants can't give all their Bolt weapons special ammo.
    (e.g; Core Sergeants only. **** you.)
    I'm waiting for Eliminator Sergeants to get nerfed so they can't take Banebolts.
    Terminators and Vanguard can be slingshootted.

    Incurors and anything Melee-related are slightly better, since now you can choose when Assault Doctrine happens (e.g; Turn 1 and 2), instead of waiting 'til Turn 3/4, if you want to go all out with Incursors and Vicky Warsuits, you'll have AP-1 from go.
    Ah, yes, stuff does get better when it becomes Troops:D Worth emphasising though. Slingshotting terminators sounds fun, I was planning to make some Tartaros terminators into Deathwatch at some point...

    And glad to hear that at least some Primaris Vanguard have potential, I've been eagerly waiting for their full range to be available to Deathwatch since they were first announced. They just fit so well!

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post

    [SNIP]
    First Space Marine and Necrons FAQ are up

    Primaris Apothecaries are now Primaris, Apothecary as predicted. Also, Black Templars finally got their index, and the Forgeworld legends PDF is up.
    Bugger, I hadn't noticed that the Chaplain Dreadnought had got legends'd. How am I supposed to find a HQ choice to bring only dreadnoughts to a competition now?

    (Ok, I suspect Librarian dreads and Bjorn are HQ choices but they are chapter-specific)

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrastos42 View Post
    And glad to hear that at least some Primaris Vanguard have potential, I've been eagerly waiting for their full range to be available to Deathwatch since they were first announced. They just fit so well!
    Speaking of Primaris Vanguard; I still rate anything Space Marines, that is S5+ that does 2+ Damage (e.g; Suppressors).

    Space Marines are good.
    Deathwatch are Space Marines.
    Ipso facto.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-11-09 at 04:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrastos42 View Post
    (Ok, I suspect Librarian dreads and Bjorn are HQ choices but they are chapter-specific)
    I think that Chapter-specific is the intentional way they're going with HQ dreads, to be honest. They were always a bit of a niche, now doubly so that GW have had a chance to clear out all of the wonky stuff with the new edition.

    There are still a couple of options available in the newest Imperial Armour Compendium. Carab Culln the Risen (Red Scorpions) was a HQ choice and I don't envision that changing any time soon - his stats were pretty damn scary too, though from what I've read on the 'net you're probably better off just claiming him to be an Ultramarines Successor. Hecaton Aiakos is still there too, although in his old rules yo couldn't take him as your Warlord so that might not be something you can work around.

    More will be seen when IA comes out, most likely, but it's still doable.
    ~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
    RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    So a somewhat broad question for a returning, long absent, player. Starting from scratch I wanted to do Space Marines. Specifically Minotaurs with their FW chapter master. I found a great third party for insignia and such.

    As I understand Minotaurs don't have a listed chapter tactics, so fluff and effective wise what Chapter would would you recommend for rules and how to start building around their CM?

  5. - Top - End - #275
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Issabella View Post
    Starting from scratch I wanted to do Space Marines. Specifically Minotaurs with their FW chapter master.

    As I understand Minotaurs don't have a listed chapter tactics, so fluff and effective wise what Chapter would would you recommend for rules and how to start building around their CM?
    Black Templars
    Blood Angels
    Space Wolves
    White Scars

    White Scars are unlikely to change anytime soon.
    Space Wolves just came out.
    Black Templars just got a free Index.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Space wolves/Minotaurs sounds interesting. Now to figure out how to convert Thunder wolves into Brass Bulls.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Issabella View Post
    Space wolves/Minotaurs sounds interesting. Now to figure out how to convert Thunder wolves into Brass Bulls.
    Wrongthink.
    How to convert Juggernauts into Thunderwolves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Wrongthink.
    How to convert Juggernauts into Thunderwolves.
    Isn't the Minotaurs thing spears? If correct, then Skullcrushers would be a better base.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    The new Forgeworld book suggests that the Minotaurs work best as an Imperial Fists successor that uses the "build your own Chapter" rules (it gives recommended Chapter Tactics, but I can't recall them offhand)- so it would appear that they can use material from the Imperial Fists Codex Supplement from 8e.

    EDIT: The recommended Chapter Tactics were Duellists and Stalwart.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-11-10 at 11:08 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Those are suggested traits but not required thankfully. I would go with White Scars for Minos. Hungry for Battle and Master Artisans would be the fluffy doctrines.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Guide to Ultramarines


    Spoiler: Abilities
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    Chapter Tactics - Codex Discipline: ULTRAMARINES have +1 Ld. This is good for when one of your Librarians is manifesting Psychic Scourge. Additionally, Ultramarines units can Fall Back and Shoot in the same turn, albeit with -1 to hit. This has some situational uses like for when your opponent is Turn 1 Charging you - like Harlequins or Daemons - and you need to get out of there.

    If you have an ULTRAMARINES Army:
    Scions of Guilliman: Whilst Tactical Doctrine is active, if your models don't Advance or Fall Back, they count as remaining Stationary when making Shooting attacks - they can still declare Charges later in the turn. Ideally, this Chapter Doctrine is supposed to mean that you can pump out Bolter Discipline all day, whilst maintaining board control. But, additionally, it means your Heavy weapons maintain relevance well into the mid-game, as moving-and-shooting no longer imposes -1 to hit.


    Successor Tactics: +1 Leadership obviously has extremely limited usefulness. Likewise, Falling Back and Shooting in the same turn, also has limited usefulness, but also it would depend on your opponent and how aggressive they are. That being said, if your opponents in your meta play aggressive armies, you're almost better off playing equally as aggressive and running units like Bladeguard Veterans. However, if you're going to do that, you're better off playing another Chapter, since Scions of Guilliman really, really wants you moving around the board with Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons:
    • Bolter Fusilades. Re-roll 1s to hit with Bolt weapons. Pairs perfectly with Scions of Guilliman and Intercessors with Bolt Rifles and Stalkers.
    • Long-Range Marksmen. +3" range to your Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons. What does Scions of Guilliman encourage, agian?
    • Stealthy. Always a good pick for a shooty Chapter.


    Spoiler: Army List Options
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    Warlord Traits
    1. Everytime you spend a CP, roll a 5+, and refund the CP. Remember, only procs once per round.
    2. Per Round, choose a unit within 6", Tactical Doctrine is active until the end of the Round. You can choose to pop this at any time. Including in your opponent's turn, when you go to fire Overwatch.
    3. Aura 6". ULTRAMARINES units within range do not take the -1 to hit penalty when using Codex Discipline to Fall Back and Shoot. Obviously useless if you're using Successor Tactics.
    4. '6's to wound deal Mortal Wounds, in addition to normal damage. A Captain in Phobos Armour has a S4, AP-2, 3D weapon that ignores Look Out, Sir! Remember that CAPTAINS don't give themselves rr1 to hit, and that's where Bolter Fusilades can come in.
    5. Aura 6". INFANTRY and BIKERS can perform Heroic Interventions. This is great for units with Bodyguard, since they're almost always going to be hanging around your Warlord anyway. When your opponent declares a Charge against your Warlord, dunk on 'em.
    6. Heroic Intervene 6".

    Relics of Macragge - ULTRAMARINES (specifically) can choose from Relics or Macragge or a Special-Issue Wargear, when choosing a Relic.

    Soldier's Blade: It's The Burning Blade, except way, way worse.

    The Sanctic Halo: CAPTAINS or CHAPTER MASTERS. Gain a 3+ Invulnerable save, and you can Deny the Witch like any other Psyker. Not only is this way better than The Shield Eternal, but it doesn't take a 'hand' to take, can be taken on any model, and since it's not a Storm Shield, it's actually free. Well done. Good job, Relic. I'm proud of you.

    The Standard of Macragge Inviolate: ANCIENTS. Aura 6". ULTRAMARINES CORE units gain +1 Attack. Aura 12". ULTRAMARINES auto-pass Morale tests. For Melee-Ultramarines. Not impossible to do. Just not recommended.

    Armour of Konor: TERMINATOR. 4+ Invulnerable, and take half damage. This would be good if Terminator Captains were worth anything.

    Helm of Censure: Re-roll one '1' to hit and one '1' to wound, each time the model attacks. Additionally, against ADEPTUS and HERETIC ASTARTES, the model gains +1 to hit and wound. At the time of writing, this is almost a silver bullet to the meta. You'll have Phobos Captains dropping bodies all day.

    Vengeance of Ultramar: [Storm Bolter]. It's Rapid Fire 4 (holy ****), that re-rolls to wound vs. VEHICLES... It deals 1 Damage.

    Tarentian Cloak: 5+ Invulnerable save, and regain D3 wounds per turn. Not bad. There are just other priorities.

    Special-Issue Wargear - Ultramarines Successor Chapters can only take Special-Issue Wargear as their Relics.

    Adamantine Mantle: Ignore Wounds (5+). Yep.

    Artificer Armour: 2+ Save, 5+ Invulnerable. Yep.

    Master-Crafted Weapon: Choose a weapon that isn't a Relic or Master-Crafted weapon already; Add 1 to its Damage. Solid. Extra Damage is usually good.

    Digital Weapons: Whenever the bearer Fights, make an additional special attack. If the special attack hits, deal a Mortal Wound. Looks useful, isn't.

    Reliquary of Vengeance: Once per Battle, at the start of the Fight phase; Aura 6". CHAPTER CORE or CHARACTERunits gain +1 Attack per model. Once again, it's not that Melee-Ultramarines can't work. It's that you're building towards an army list that could be done better, by another Chapter.
    That said, if you already have an Ultramarines army, and are looking to switch it up by playing a Melee Chapter, you can actually do that. The core (lower case, that is) of your list is already painted, and you can pick up some Melee units, and your whole collection will stay uniform.

    Seal of Oath: At the start of the first Battle Round, choose an enemy unit. Aura 6". Your CHAPTER CORE or CHARACTER units re-roll to hit and wound vs. that unit. Very strong for an alpha strike and taking out your opponent's centerpiece on Turn 1.

    Hellfury Bolts: Choose a Bolt weapon the model is armed with. You can choose to, instead of firing normally, roll to hit. Deal a Mortal Wound.

    Sunwrath Pistol: [Plasma Pistol]. Pistol 2. It's a Supercharged Plasma Pistol that never explodes. First; It's still a Pistol. Second; Choose something else.

    Indomitus Discipline
    1. WC5, Self. Gain a 5+ Invulnerable, and all attacks against your Librarian have -1 to hit.
    2. WC7. Immediately gain a CP. Or, target model within 18" can re-roll one of the following this turn; To hit, To wound or Damage.
    3. WC7, 24". Roll 2d6+2 vs. target unit's Leadership. Deal Mortal Wounds equal to the difference. Very strong Power. That's why it's WC7.
    4. WC6, 18". Roll a 6 for each enemy model in the closest visible enemy unit. Deal Mortal Wounds.
    5. WC6, 18". Target enemy unit halves their Move value, and has -1 to Advance and Charge. Does not stack with Tenebrous Curse (Obscuration Discipline).
    6. WC5, 12". Target CHAPTER LIBRARIAN gains +2 to Psychic tests and can't Perils on double 1s or 6s (but can Perils in other ways).


    Spoiler: Stratagems
    Show
    All Ultramarines Successors count as Ultramarines.

    Martial Precision: When an ULTRAMARINES model makes an attack in the Shooting phase, the attack automatically hits. Very strong. Combine with Hellfire Shell or Flakk Missile. Many, many applications for this Stratagem.

    Vengeance for Calth: One of your ULTRAMARINES units re-rolls to hit and wound vs. WORD BEARERS units for the Fight phase. Not only this is this Heretic Astartes-specific, but it only applies to a specific subset of Heretic Astartes, so, as fluffy as it is, for most games, this simply reads as wasted page space.

    Inspiring Command: During a Shooting, or Fight phase; A CHAPTER MASTER, CAPTAIN or LIEUTENANT have their Aura abilities increased by 3" - to a max. of 9". This includes Auras granted by Relics.

    Cycle of War: If the Assault Doctrine was active last Battle Round, for the current Battle Round, Devastator Doctrine is active. This is perhaps one of the very, very few reasons for Ultramarine armies to accelerate to Assault Doctrine on Turn 3 - instead of waiting 'til Turn 4 - so you can second-cycle into Devastator.

    Rapid Redeployment (2): At the start of the first Battle Round, redeploy up to three units, as described in the Deployment section of the Mission. Since it is no longer actually deployment - it's actually pre-Turn 1 - abilities like Concealed Positions don't work when deploying using this Stratagem.

    Sons of Guilliman: In the Shooting or Fight phase, target INFANTRY or BIKER unit can re-roll 1s to hit.

    Avenge the Fallen: When an ULTRAMARINES unit in your army is destroyed by an attack by an enemy unit; All of your ULATRAMARINES re-roll 1s to hit vs. that unit for the entire rest of the battle. It's baffling that this is allowed to be used multiple times per game.

    Courage and Honour!: All [ULTRAMARINES in your army gain +1 Leadership for a Morale phase. Garbage.

    Tactical Expertise (2): If the Tactical Doctrine is active, all ULTRAMARINES in your entire army with Rapid Fire and Assault weapons improve their AP by -1 on 6s to wound. Another army-wide buff, that for 2CPs, means that even Ultramarines Successors really want to run Rapid Fire and Assault weapons a lot, and the Chapter really isn't set up to improve Melee units...Only specific Melee units.

    Fall Back and Re-Engage (1/2): This Stratagem costs 2 CPs if the target unit doesn't have the Codex Discipline Chapter Tactic (another reason to just play 'vanilla' Ultramarines, and not to bother with Successors). The target unit can Fall Back, Shoot and Charge all in the same turn. In addition, if the unit has Codex Discipline, ignore the penalties to hit, this Stratagem takes precedence.

    Defensive Focus (2): When an ULTRAMARINES unit is Charged, up to three units that are within 6" of the unit, can fire Overwatch as well.

    Exemplar of the Chapter: Your non-named Warlord gets a second Warlord Trait.

    Squad Doctrines: Target ULTRAMARINES INFANTRY or BIKER unit has whatever Combat Doctrine you want, until your next turn.

    Honoured Sergeant: Army list. Target 'Sergeant' in your army can be given; Master-Crafted Weapon, Digital Weapons, Hellfury Bolts or a Sunwrath Pistol.
    These are...Not Good choices. Hellfury Bolts and Sunwrath Pistols just aren't worth it.

    Tactical Insight (2): Dead Stratagem. However, the Errata for Ultramarines has left it in. What? Future proofing?

    Honoured by Macragge: When choosing a Relic for one of your Ultramarines Successor models, you can choose for the Relic to come from the Relics of Macragge, instead of being able to only choose from Special-Issue Wargear or the Relics from the Codex.
    Once again, play Ultramarines. Or pay resources to be like Ultramarines anyway. Why does GW do this?


    Spoiler: Characters
    Show
    Lord of War

    Roboute Guilliman: MONSTER, PRIMARCH. Bobby G's biggest problem is that he's not INFANTRY...Oh, and he costs 380 Points. But lets move on. He has a Rapid Fire 3 ranged weapon that deals 2 damage a pop, so he's got that. However, he also suffers from 'The Gravis Captain' problem, of having two Melee weapons, where one Melee weapon is clearly better than the other one; The Emperor's Sword is a S8, AP-4, deals 3 Damage and deals additional D3 Mortal Wounds on a '6' to wound. Very, very strong model in Melee. But he has a massive problem where he can't actually get there. Additionally, Bobby G must be your army's Warlord, superseding any model with a similar rule, and for the 'privilege', he also gives you +3 CPs, which you can use for spamming more Relics in your army. Finally, Bobby G is one of the few models left in the game with a 3+ Invulnerable save, and, the first time Bobby G is destroyed, roll a 4+, and return him to play more than 1" away from enemy models, with D6 Wounds. Yes, Bobby G can teleport if your opponent goofs. But, for 380 Points, you need a lot more than what Bobby G is. No, he's actually a massive force multiplier:
    • Aura 12". IMPERIUM units gain +1 to Advance and Charge, re-roll 1s to hit, and re-roll Morale tests. Obviously, this Aura applies to Guilliman himself, and of course, it has nothing at all to do with CORE units. So this Aura hits stuff like Vehicles and Centurions, too. Ideally, this Aura is designed so that you can insert Guilliman into any Faction, any army you want. But, with army-wide Faction bonuses, Guilliman, missing key Faction...Keywords...Means that inserting Guilliman into an IMPERIUM army, is actually deleterious in some fashion. The best place for Bobby G to be, is where he belongs - in an ULTRAMARINES army. Simply because unlike every other Aura, Guilliman does affect units like Centurions and Vehicles.
    • Aura 6". ULTRAMARINES CORE and CHARACTER re-roll 1s to wound. This is not a selectable buff. This is all units, including Bobby G, himself, since he's an ULTRAMARINES CHARACTER. Remember, the above Aura is larger than this Aura. Bobby G has 12" of re-roll 1s to hit, and 6", of re-roll 1s to wound.
    • Fixed Warlord Trait #5. ULTRAMARINES INFANTRY and BIKERS can perform Heroic Interventions. Not useless. Just situational. Remember that you can perform Heroic Interventions, for units that aren't Bobby G. Bobby G doesn't have to get Charged for you to perform an Intervention. This Warlord Trait can create very powerful Melee-castles. Because there are scant few units in the game that are going to Charge Bobby G on purpose. Your opponent just wont do it, because they're not made of straw. But, your opponent will Charge other units. That's where Heroic Interventions come in.

    The major factor that defines Bobby G, is his Auras. He is a Melee beast...With no way to get there. What is he doing, while marching up the board? He is massively improving those powerful, shooty units that Ultramarines are known for. "What units does Guilliman go best with?" ...The ones that are already good.


    HQ

    Marneus Calgar: GRAVIS, CHAPTER MASTER. T5 with 8 Wounds, 2+/4++. Additionally, Calgar takes half damage from all attacks. Very, very strong Character. He carries the normal Rites of Battle Aura, and the Chapter Master selectable buff. He carries a Master-Crafted Storm Bolter, and a pair of bad Power Fists that do D3 Damage, instead of 2. If Calgar is your Warlord, you gain +2 CPs, and his fixed Warlord Trait is refunding CPs. So if spamming Stratagems is what you want to do (it is), Calgar is your guy. At only 210 Points, Calgar can be seen as preferable to Guilliman, not least because you can potentially take another 2 HQs (one of which can be a Lieutenant, to pick up re-roll 1s to wound), and still be less points than Guilliman. Be wary of taking too many Characters and giving your opponent free Assassinate. But we'll come back to this. The major point of contention between them is that Bobby G does give re-roll 1s to hit to Centurions and Vehicles - that's a massive difference and one that can't be ignored.

    Chief Librarian Tigurius: PRIMARIS, CHIEF LIBRARIAN. He has +1 to Psychic and Deny tests without eating your Warlord Trait for no reason like a normal Chief Librarian would. Additionally, his Force Stave is AP-3 which is very good. But, on top of that, at the start of a Battle Round, choose an ULTRAMARINES CORE or CHARACTER unit within 6"; Your opponent has -1 to hit them. This is an extraordinarily strong ability to grant to any unit with the Bodyguard rule - your Character(s) can't be targeted, and the units that can be targeted, are at -1 to hit. Very good. Tigurius is always worth his points.

    Chaplain Cassius: MASTER OF SANCTITY. T5 is nice. Cassius carries a Combi-Flamer-with-Master-Crafted Boltgun, and his Artificer Crozius. Both of which simply have an extra AP over their usual counterparts. He has Spiritual Leader. But, also he has a b0rked version of an Astartes Banner, which is both better and worse than normal; Aura 6". When an ULTRAMARINES CORE or CHARACTER model is destroyed by a Melee attack, roll a 6, and the enemy unit that made the attack suffers a Mortal Wound.
    Coming home from the Deathwatch, Cassius now talks more, but speaks softer. Also T5. Remember kids, Cassius (Deathwatch) and Cassius (Ultramarines) both exist and neither are Legends'd. GW can have 'character progression' in the game whenever they want. They choose not to.

    Captain Sicarius: Carries a Plasma Pistol that doesn't explode, and a Force Sword that deals Mortal Wounds instead of normal Damage. Ultimately, not very good, since he's missing a key piece of wargear; A Jump Pack. A horrific use of your one CAPTAIN slot. However, his only ability that's actually worth anything, is that every round, one ULTRAMARINES CORE or CHARACTER unit within 6" gains Objective Secured. Situational, but not useless...But also Sicarius is useless.

    Sergeant Telion: SCOUT. He's essentially a Captain in Phobos Armour that doesn't take your CAPTAIN slot. His ability to ignore Look Out, Sir! is pretty potent when he deals 2 Damage with a chance for Mortal Wounds. His ability to ride around in a pimp wagon Land Speeder Storm and still shoot out the top is deceptively strong, because you effectively Telion T6 with 7 extra Wounds, on a platform that has even more weapons. If you aren't going to run Telion around in his very own ride, he does hand out BS2+ to an ULTRAMARINES SCOUT unit within 3" - not +1 to hit. However, the only real reason to do this is if you're using Scouts to fire off Hellfire Shells or Flakk Missile.

    Sergeant Chronus: For +35 Points, he makes a non-Primaris Vehicle BS2+, and the Vehicle regains a Wounds every turn. He's not terrible. Particularly because any Warlord Trait he has, is applied to the Vehicle. Which has some very strong applications. Additionally, Chronus reads as a 35 Point HQ, which means he fits right in with a Combat Patrol in a 'small game' where min-maxing your army lists is king. Costing less than an Astra Militarum HQ, in a Space Marines' list, is a big deal. As always, you want to avoid making terrible units, mediocre. Your real goal is make good units, really good. To that end, the Vehicles to put Chronus in:
    • Vindicator. T8, 2+ Save against ranged attacks.
    • Whirlwind. Can hide out of LoS.
    • Stalker. T8 with a solid 48" range weapon.
    • Land Raider. The +35 points you add to the Land Raider is only a fraction of its real cost, making Chronus much more efficient, here. As always, the standard variant has the Twin Heavy Bolters (2 Damage each), and four Lascannon shots. Bonus, 'cause Chronus doesn't take a 'spot' in the Land Raider, which means you can still run a bunch of Melee models inside.


    Spoiler: Elites
    Show
    FAQ
    Q: Can any of the datasheets in this supplement be from a successor Chapter?
    A: No. These datasheets and named characters can only be from the Ultramarines Chapter.
    Rekt. Play Ultramarines. Not a Successor. Play what GW tells you to play. Although, it's arguable you wont even want to.

    Victrix Honour Guard: Competing quite heavily with Bladeguard Veterans. But, we know that units of 2 models don't mean anything at all. Luckily, these models have Bodyguard, and as such, Look Out, Sir! doesn't apply. But comparing to Bladeguard, Victrix have WS2+, and 4 Attacks, which means that not only do they have more attacks, but their attacks actually connect, too. Another improvement is that as Honour Guard, Victrix have a 2+ Save, and their Ultima Storm Shields give them a 3+ Invulnerable. So, additionally, Victrix are better defensively, too. Finally, Victrix can perform Heroic Interventions (because they're actual Bodyguards), and don't take up Role slots if their Detachment includes a MARNEUS CALGAR model. None of them do. So if you can find a way to run 6 (3*2), you can do that...Although now you're looking at a situation where 6 non-Character models represent 3 Kill Points...But, Victrix are demi-Characters in their own right. As they are Bladeguard+. However, one place where they absolutely fall apart, is that they are only wielding regular Power Swords, which only deal 1 Damage apiece, and are therefore pretty, pretty terrible. But, as a Bodyguard unit with a 2+/3++, offensiveness isn't really what you're taking them for.
    Remember that Guilliman's Warlord Trait is giving Infantry around him the ability to Heroic Intervention. Choose another Bodyguard unit. Victrix are clearly designed to be used with Marneus Calgar, and Hell, the rules actually reinforce that.
    While we're at it, despite being a MONSTER, Guilliman is a CHARACTER with 9 or less Wounds. He can absolutely be Bodyguarded...Which is arguably the only way he should be run.


    Unlike Codex: Space Marines units, the following 'Command Units' do not gain Keywords, they have the Keywords, that they have, and none of them have the Command Squad rule, and all of them are arguably unplayable because of it.

    Chapter Ancient: Take a Chapter Ancient, give it a 2+ Save and a mandatory Power Sword. Lame.

    Chapter Champion: Take a Chapter Champion. +1 Attack, 2+ Save, and replace its Combat Shield with a **** Dagger. This is directly in opposition to the correct way to run a Chapter Champion, which is to replace its Combat Shield with The Shield Eternal. Do not use this model. It's not worth it. The 5+ Invulnerable is better than a **** Dagger. If I've learned anything from YouTube, the most powerful defensive capability of any Infantryman, is a Shield.

    Honour Guard: Company Veterans with a 2+ Save, with Power Axes and Boltguns. Dog****. These guys terrible Bodyguard units, since they're just asking to be shot at and removed anyway. Take whatever Company Veterans you currently have, make them look as cool as possible, and give them whatever wargear you want (Grav-Guns and Storm Shields, come to mind), and call them Honour Guard, because mechanically, taking actual Honour Guard? ...You need your head checked.

    Tyrannic War Veterans: Sternguard, except they're only 17 Points each...Good! Because they're terrible. Except they can re-roll to and wound vs. TYRANIDS only. Oh, your opponents are playing Sororitas? Never mind. They can't take Combi-, Special or Heavy weapons. As superseded by Company Veterans as Sternguard already are, at least Sternguard have options. Do you have a meta that's full of TYRANIDS? ...Cool. Take whatever you want, make them look as cool as possible, and give them whatever wargear you want, and call them Tyrannic War Veterans.
    (Bonus points if you have Primaris Marines as Tyrannic War Veterans. It's just as cool as giving your Deathwatch Librarian a Black Templars Chapter badge. )

    Buff Alert? Tyrannic War Veterans only have one Wound each. That should probably change.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    I've just recently gotten into this game with a Dark Eldar army, and I've noticed something. Space Marines are so ridiculously popular, I find that whenever people talk about units in other armies, the majority of conversations I've seen always manage to compare them to Space Marines stats. So... I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and learn about Space Marines, aren't I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralCheez View Post
    Space Marines are so ridiculously popular, I find that whenever people talk about units in other armies, the majority of conversations I've seen always manage to compare them to Space Marines stats. So... I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and learn about Space Marines, aren't I?
    If you want to take the game seriously, the game is not in a good place right now. Astartes players are finding it incredibly easy to build good army lists, even by accident. Whilst non-Astartes players are left out in the cold, putting black markers into many datasheets and sweeping many of their units not only off the shelf, but into the bin, and being forced into buying or playing certain units and completely ignoring others. Do you like the unit that you've been told to ignore? ...That's a shame.

    Not only are Astartes popular...Astartes are good. Very good. That's why everything is compared to them.

    So, more or less, Astartes are the meta. Now, by 'learn about', all's you really have to know is that Marines are T4 with 2 Wounds, or T5 with 3 Wounds, usually with a 3+ save. There are exceptions of T4 with 3 Wounds (Terminators). But whatever kills T5, 3 Wounds; Kills T4, 3 Wounds, too. If you can get your head around what that means, you know all you need to know.


    Mostly though. What's 'popular' online, doesn't mean anything. 'Cause what really matters is what you play against in the real world. Sometimes, rarely, but sometimes, your meta - as opposed to the meta - wont be clogged with Astartes (or Custodes, or Sororitas).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    If you want to take the game seriously, the game is not in a good place right now. Astartes players are finding it incredibly easy to build good army lists, even by accident. Whilst non-Astartes players are left out in the cold, putting black markers into many datasheets and sweeping many of their units not only off the shelf, but into the bin, and being forced into buying or playing certain units and completely ignoring others. Do you like the unit that you've been told to ignore? ...That's a shame.
    I'm mostly playing with a small group of friends right now, so I'm not taking the game too seriously. I'm mostly just building things that look neat to me, and having fun with it, which is working out so far. I'm just hoping that whatever I'm buying now doesn't become obsolete too quickly.

    So, more or less, Astartes are the meta. Now, by 'learn about', all's you really have to know is that Marines are T4 with 2 Wounds, or T5 with 3 Wounds, usually with a 3+ save. There are exceptions of T4 with 3 Wounds (Terminators). But whatever kills T5, 3 Wounds; Kills T4, 3 Wounds, too. If you can get your head around what that means, you know all you need to know.
    That does make sense, and that's quite helpful, actually! That'll make mental math much easier.


    Mostly though. What's 'popular' online, doesn't mean anything. 'Cause what really matters is what you play against in the real world. Sometimes, rarely, but sometimes, your meta - as opposed to the meta - wont be clogged with Astartes (or Custodes, or Sororitas).
    In the three games I've played so far, I've faced Necrons, Chaos Space Marines, and regular Space Marines. Somehow managed to win all three, so I'm quite happy with that record. I would much rather look at anything besides Astartes models on the board, but killing them does bring a certain satisfaction in its own way!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    *Nerf Alert. CENTURIONS, being INFANTRY, only take up a single space in a Blackstar because copy-paste rules don't account for Centurions being part of the army roster. Expect this to be rectified.


    And it wouldn't surprise me at all, if GW 'corrected' the fact that Deathwatch were allowed Centurions at all.
    That is a bit odd. Especially when the Space Wolves supplement didn't make that mistake with their flyers, and specifically stated that Centurions take up 3 slots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Space Wolves next. I'm seeing positive things. But they said positive things about the last Space Wolves Codex, too, and that was dead on arrival.
    I have a feeling it might end up simply being ipso facto; Space Marines are good. Space Wolves are Space Marines. Space Wolves are good.
    Full access to grav-cannons, grav-guns, etc, might be a big enough difference, that many SW players will want to add them to the relevant units.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-11-11 at 02:17 PM.
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    Spoiler: Black Templar
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    Been a long time since I posted any minis here, so here's my two most recently finished items. Got lazy with Fabius' base, but after having him unfinished for months I just wanted him done and off my desk. Might go back and redo that sometime.

    The primaris bladeguard and assault intercessors have got me thinking about starting up that Black Templars army I've been putting off since 5th edition, but I'll need to paint the guys I have and see if I still feel happy with them ten models in. I have learned much better techniques for white armour and cloth since my last attempt to make a Crusader unit, so maybe I'll keep the momentum better this time around.
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    More Ultramarines' stuff.

    Spoiler: Stratagems
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    All Ultramarines Successors count as Ultramarines.

    Martial Precision: When an ULTRAMARINES model makes an attack in the Shooting phase, the attack automatically hits. Very strong. Combine with Hellfire Shell or Flakk Missile. Many, many applications for this Stratagem.

    Vengeance for Calth: One of your ULTRAMARINES units re-rolls to hit and wound vs. WORD BEARERS units for the Fight phase. Not only this is this Heretic Astartes-specific, but it only applies to a specific subset of Heretic Astartes, so, as fluffy as it is, for most games, this simply reads as wasted page space.

    Inspiring Command: During a Shooting, or Fight phase; A CHAPTER MASTER, CAPTAIN or LIEUTENANT have their Aura abilities increased by 3" - to a max. of 9". This includes Auras granted by Relics.

    Cycle of War: If the Assault Doctrine was active last Battle Round, for the current Battle Round, Devastator Doctrine is active. This is perhaps one of the very, very few reasons for Ultramarine armies to accelerate to Assault Doctrine on Turn 3 - instead of waiting 'til Turn 4 - so you can second-cycle into Devastator.

    Rapid Redeployment (2): At the start of the first Battle Round, redeploy up to three units, as described in the Deployment section of the Mission. Since it is no longer actually deployment - it's actually pre-Turn 1 - abilities like Concealed Positions don't work when deploying using this Stratagem.

    Sons of Guilliman: In the Shooting or Fight phase, target INFANTRY or BIKER unit can re-roll 1s to hit.

    Avenge the Fallen: When an ULTRAMARINES unit in your army is destroyed by an attack by an enemy unit; All of your ULATRAMARINES re-roll 1s to hit vs. that unit for the entire rest of the battle. It's baffling that this is allowed to be used multiple times per game.

    Courage and Honour!: All [ULTRAMARINES in your army gain +1 Leadership for a Morale phase. Garbage.

    Tactical Expertise (2): If the Tactical Doctrine is active, all ULTRAMARINES in your entire army with Rapid Fire and Assault weapons improve their AP by -1 on 6s to wound. Another army-wide buff, that for 2CPs, means that even Ultramarines Successors really want to run Rapid Fire and Assault weapons a lot, and the Chapter really isn't set up to improve Melee units...Only specific Melee units.

    Fall Back and Re-Engage (1/2): This Stratagem costs 2 CPs if the target unit doesn't have the Codex Discipline Chapter Tactic (another reason to just play 'vanilla' Ultramarines, and not to bother with Successors). The target unit can Fall Back, Shoot and Charge all in the same turn. In addition, if the unit has Codex Discipline, ignore the penalties to hit, this Stratagem takes precedence.

    Defensive Focus (2): When an ULTRAMARINES unit is Charged, up to three units that are within 6" of the unit, can fire Overwatch as well.

    Exemplar of the Chapter: Your non-named Warlord gets a second Warlord Trait.

    Squad Doctrines: Target ULTRAMARINES INFANTRY or BIKER unit has whatever Combat Doctrine you want, until your next turn.

    Honoured Sergeant: Army list. Target 'Sergeant' in your army can be given; Master-Crafted Weapon, Digital Weapons, Hellfury Bolts or a Sunwrath Pistol.
    These are...Not Good choices. Hellfury Bolts and Sunwrath Pistols just aren't worth it.

    Tactical Insight (2): Dead Stratagem. However, the Errata for Ultramarines has left it in. What? Future proofing?

    Honoured by Macragge: When choosing a Relic for one of your Ultramarines Successor models, you can choose for the Relic to come from the Relics of Macragge, instead of being able to only choose from Special-Issue Wargear or the Relics from the Codex.
    Once again, play Ultramarines. Or pay resources to be like Ultramarines anyway. Why does GW do this?
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-11-15 at 08:08 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    So here's a few more questions as I go about rebuilding my Astartes

    About updated Reivers: The old logic (when not struggling to compete against, well, pretty much every other Elite unit type), was that Heavy Bolt Pistols + Bolt Carbines were the better options as opposed to HB Pistol + Combat Knife, because trading away the advantage of standard Bolt Rifle range Assault 2 gun, for +1 melee Attack was frankly silly, and certain individuals here have thoroughly made their opinion on Pistols-Only (particularly when sold on the idea of "But you can fire in Engagement range!") known.

    But now that the HB Pistols have been handed over to the Assault Intercessor, and Reivers received "Special-Issue Bolt Pistols" with AP-2, changes to their Terror Troops trait to -2 LD, and general encouragement to throw these guys at an opponent's ObSec Troops on Turn 2+ after bringing them in from Reserve (especially ones not melee-focused), what's the preferred Reiver loadout looking like now? I imagine Bolter Focused Chapters (like Imperial Fists), are going to want to continue with Bolt Carbines, but what about other chapters?

    Anyways, here's where my rebuild is standing right now, Prefer keeping them Ultramarines (especially since I have Guilliman, just not sure if I can justify his points cost yet. Unit suggestions anyone?:
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    HQ:
    1x Captain in Phobos Armor
    1x Lt in Phobos Armor
    1x Librarian in Phobos Armor

    Elites:
    -5x Reivers
    -5x Reivers

    Troops:
    -5x Infiltrators
    -5x Infiltrators

    Fast Attack:
    -3x Suppressors

    Heavy Support:
    -3x Eliminators
    Last edited by Razgriez; 2020-11-14 at 04:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    But now that the HB Pistols have been handed over to the Assault Intercessor, and Reivers received "Special-Issue Bolt Pistols" with AP-2, changes to their Terror Troops trait to -2 LD, and general encouragement to throw these guys at an opponent's ObSec Troops on Turn 2+ after bringing them in from Reserve (especially ones not melee-focused), what's the preferred Reiver loadout looking like now? I imagine Bolter Focused Chapters (like Imperial Fists), are going to want to continue with Bolt Carbines, but what about other chapters?
    Combat Blades are only good useful in Melee.
    Pistols are only good <12".
    Terror Troops basically only works when they're engaged.
    Picking up Outflank or Death From Above, is mandatory for Reivers to not be actual garbage. Which makes them 20 Points each.

    So you pick up those Knives for any Melee Chapter, sure. That could arguably work. Because it's CP-free Reinforcements, and Terror Troops does have value, and if you're going to be Charging an enemy unit; You can always turn off their Objective Secured...But remember that Reivers aren't ObSec either. So it's benefit is very, very situational. But certainly not useless.

    If you're talking about Bolt Carbines...S4, AP-, in the Elites slot, of all places? Choose literally anything else. That sounds like one of the worst units in the Codex.
    Try and convince you're opponent that they're Infiltrators if you really, really like the models (some do, I think they're hideous).

    Anyways, here's where my rebuild is standing right now, Prefer keeping them Ultramarines (especially since I have Guilliman, just not sure if I can justify his points cost yet. Unit suggestions anyone?
    Phobos-heavy armies tend to skew Melee in the end. Only because Incursors and Vicky Warsuits are that good.
    But, since you're talking about Ultramarines...I've been inferring that Ultramarines can play Melee - not that they should. But certainly they can. All the good Melee units are typically Firstborn, so that might be a problem. Otherwise, Ultramarines are Space Marines, and Space Marines are shooty. Just pick up all the better units.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-11-14 at 09:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Combat Blades are only good useful in Melee.
    Pistols are only good <12".
    Terror Troops basically only works when they're engaged.
    Picking up Outflank or Death From Above, is mandatory for Reivers to not be actual garbage. Which makes them 20 Points each.

    So you pick up those Knives for any Melee Chapter, sure. That could arguably work. Because it's CP-free Reinforcements, and Terror Troops does have value, and if you're going to be Charging an enemy unit; You can always turn off their Objective Secured...But remember that Reivers aren't ObSec either. So it's benefit is very, very situational. But certainly not useless.

    If you're talking about Bolt Carbines...S4, AP-, in the Elites slot, of all places? Choose literally anything else. That sounds like one of the worst units in the Codex.
    Try and convince you're opponent that they're Infiltrators if you really, really like the models (some do, I think they're hideous).
    Yea, admittedly, this is a case of "I have a box of 10 Reivers I picked up for Kill-Team", and as stated, I'm pretty much on the "Primaris-Only" train for future Astartes purchases and army building (unless I can find some useful place to stick what Firstborn marine models I still have that I can still field, both from a "having to fix them up from early years of bad painting, or missing parts" and a "Are these guys even still worth the Force Organization slot/points?" perspective. And well, DW Black and Silver is looking tempting for that if I want to keep my classic Ultramarines Firstborn rolling).

    My main concern with Knife-Reivers still is that they're a unit which should probably still be deployed by mid-game, specifically to chase ObSec units off the board, but they really don't ramping up until Turn 3-4 (and as you pointed out, playing a Ranged combat chapter and flipping to Assault immediately is a tough strategy to play around. More so when relying on Infiltrators for the time being as my troop choices, I need Tactical Doctrine to give a bit more bite to their Marksman Carbines.

    I guess the better way to phrase it in my case is this: For Ultramarines, should I build Reivers All Knives, All Carbines, 5 with knives, 5 with Carbines? And also, which mobility option should I pick with each?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Phobos-heavy armies tend to skew Melee in the end. Only because Incursors and Vicky Warsuits are that good.
    But, since you're talking about Ultramarines...I've been inferring that Ultramarines can play Melee - not that they should. But certainly they can. All the good Melee units are typically Firstborn, so that might be a problem. Otherwise, Ultramarines are Space Marines, and Space Marines are shooty. Just pick up all the better units.
    Building Infiltrators from the Shadowspear box. Which my strategy for them is definitely pretty basic, Stick'em on objectives for early points, try to keep'em alive with cover and Smokescreen, +Omni-scramblers, but take advantage of Ultramarines ability to make fighting retreats/tactical withdraws as needed. Especially since Ultramarines appear to be built around mid-game power with late game clean-up.

    My main concern right now, is the obvious gaps. No Anti-Vehicle. Relying on two units that can only field as units of 3 models for dealing with big threats each leaves me a bit wanting in the ranged department. Reivers are good for shutting down ObSec and chasing weakened Troops off the board, but cleaning up other units becomes a more difficult proposition. And Phobos HQ tend to be prime Melee charge targets to your opponents (with the exception of the Librarian)
    Last edited by Razgriez; 2020-11-14 at 04:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quick question for modellers out there: How do Firstborn Space Marine helmets compare in scale to Primaris helmets?

    A while ago I built a Grey Knights Sevrin Loth, and for my next project I've decided on Primaris Dark Angels, starting with sending Chapter Master Azrael through the Rubicon.

    It won't be too hard - take Master Lazarus, give him the boltgun/sword option and swap his generic helmet for one with wings. Ideally I'd use a Primaris helm, but the only winged one I can find is Lazarus' own which is partially obscured by his hand, so I'd have to cut it out and resculpt which sounds like it could go horribly wrong. As a back-up I'd use a Dark Angels Deathwing Companion helm, but I'm not sure if it would be properly to scale or would look too small. Any suggestions?

    In the same vein, I'll be turning a Primaris Chaplain into Primaris Cypher with the addition of a spare Heavy Bolt Pistol and an SM Hooded head... is it going to look silly or is it about right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    Yea, admittedly, this is a case of "I have a box of 10 Reivers I picked up for Kill-Team", and as stated, I'm pretty much on the "Primaris-Only" train for future Astartes purchases and army building (unless I can find some useful place to stick what Firstborn marine models I still have that I can still field, both from a "having to fix them up from early years of bad painting, or missing parts" and a "Are these guys even still worth the Force Organization slot/points?" perspective. And well, DW Black and Silver is looking tempting for that if I want to keep my classic Ultramarines Firstborn rolling).

    My main concern with Knife-Reivers still is that they're a unit which should probably still be deployed by mid-game, specifically to chase ObSec units off the board, but they really don't ramping up until Turn 3-4 (and as you pointed out, playing a Ranged combat chapter and flipping to Assault immediately is a tough strategy to play around. More so when relying on Infiltrators for the time being as my troop choices, I need Tactical Doctrine to give a bit more bite to their Marksman Carbines.

    I guess the better way to phrase it in my case is this: For Ultramarines, should I build Reivers All Knives, All Carbines, 5 with knives, 5 with Carbines? And also, which mobility option should I pick with each?
    for Reivers, the answer is pretty much knives and grav chutes, grapnels are optional. Like Cheese said, they need to be in melee for their best abilities to do anything, and the carbines are just bad. The fact you might not ever move to Assualt doctrine isn't a real deciding factor. Also in Kill team you take a single Reiver Sgt as a Combat specialist again with knife for a blender that makes hilarious "tink" noises.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Quick question for modellers out there: How do Firstborn Space Marine helmets compare in scale to Primaris helmets?

    A while ago I built a Grey Knights Sevrin Loth, and for my next project I've decided on Primaris Dark Angels, starting with sending Chapter Master Azrael through the Rubicon.

    It won't be too hard - take Master Lazarus, give him the boltgun/sword option and swap his generic helmet for one with wings. Ideally I'd use a Primaris helm, but the only winged one I can find is Lazarus' own which is partially obscured by his hand, so I'd have to cut it out and resculpt which sounds like it could go horribly wrong. As a back-up I'd use a Dark Angels Deathwing Companion helm, but I'm not sure if it would be properly to scale or would look too small. Any suggestions?

    In the same vein, I'll be turning a Primaris Chaplain into Primaris Cypher with the addition of a spare Heavy Bolt Pistol and an SM Hooded head... is it going to look silly or is it about right?
    Helmets are pretty much exactly the same scale.(Primaris marines are bigger but more sensibly proportioned, so have the same heads and hands.) I use Tactical Marine helmets for all my primaris marines (just prefer the vox-grille look) and they look perfectly good. Only thing is to watch the raised gorget that primaris have - can restrict the angles you can put beaky helmets or similar wide helmets at.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Vengeance for Calth: One of your ULATRAMARINES units re-rolls to hit and wound vs. WORD BEARERS units for the Fight phase. Not only this is this Heretic Astartes-specific, but it only applies to a specific subset of Heretic Astartes, so, as fluffy as it is, for most games, this simply reads as wasted page space.
    Vengeance for Cadia at least applies to all Chaos units. That's an... interesting design decision on their part.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    I guess the better way to phrase it in my case is this: For Ultramarines, should I build Reivers All Knives, All Carbines, 5 with knives, 5 with Carbines? And also, which mobility option should I pick with each?
    All Knives, all the time, regardless of Chapter.
    Bolt Carbines are ****. If you are a Chapter where Assault Bolt weapons are your goto...You can still pick any other unit because Reivers are terrible and do not do what they say on the tin. And one of the big reasons for this is simply because they aren't Troops. They're Elites. Which means you compare them to Elites, and you compare them to other Factions' Elites.

    "This is my Elites-slot unit, it can destroy bad Troops units that have already been damaged."
    ...Good...Job? I think?

    Building Infiltrators from the Shadowspear box...
    So why have Reivers with Bolt Carbines when you already have Infiltrators?

    Reivers are good for shutting down ObSec and chasing weakened Troops off the board doing what any other unit could do, except worse at it
    Fixed. Reivers don't do the job. That's what makes them one of the worst units in the Codex.
    Just 'cause they do something, doesn't mean they're good at it.

    Reivers, simply, are one of the worst implemented units in the Codex. And they were last edition, too. Releasing Infiltrators/Incursors, in the Troops slot, too, was their death knell.

    And Phobos HQ tend to be prime Melee charge targets to your opponents (with the exception of the Librarian)
    Then you need Victrix Honour Guard...Which only come out of the Marneus Calgar box...Who would replace Guilliman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Vengeance for Cadia at least applies to all Chaos units. That's an... interesting design decision on their part.
    That's because Death to the Traitors! comes out of the main Codex already.
    Death to the Traitors; Re-roll to hit in the Fight phase vs. Heretic Astartes.
    Vengeance for Calth; Ultramarines re-roll to hit and wound in the Fight phase vs. Word Bearers.

    It works as a design choice.
    It's just a bad design choice. Other Supplements have similar.

    "It was designed to be bad, so it's fine."
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    I’m trying to work out if there is a way of evoking the sort of thing Vengeance for Calth aims for in a way that is actually a good addition to the game. ‘My specific subfaction hates this specific subfaction so here is a new ability they can use’ is the straightforward way of doing it, but rarely relevant, and even when it is may not be used, given the CP cost and that it only applies to one unit. So although it does what it was designed to do, I’d say it was poor design.

    Perhaps something like this would be better:
    Vengeance for Calth - 0cp
    If your opponent’s warlord is a Wordbearer, you may immediately use a stratagem a second time this phase. You still pay the CP cost for that stratagem.
    So each phase you get to reuse one stratagem if you’re facing a favoured enemy. No additional effects to remember, just do more of what you were doing already. Represents your units fighting slightly harder against a hated foe. Possibly broken if there are stratagems that are really good if you can use them twice, but could control for that by specifying which stratagems can be used in this way.
    Last edited by Avaris; 2020-11-15 at 04:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    I’m trying to work out if there is a way of evoking the sort of thing Vengeance for Calth aims for in a way that is actually a good addition to the game.
    Why start there? The worst offender is Deathwatch:
    Use this Stratagem vs. Aeldari,
    Use this Stratagem vs. Orks,
    Use this Stratagem vs. Necrons,
    Use this Stratagem vs. T'au Empire,
    Use this Stratagem vs. Tyranids.
    If my opponent plays a Xenos race, I get to use one of them. But, my opponent 'this game' is currently playing Astartes, so I guess I'll go **** myself? However, on the reverse end, Deathwatch have a guaranteed maxed Secondary if they're up against Xenos...But that only works if Xenos are the meta - which they aren't.

    A similar pain has been by Grey Knights in every edition. Your opponent doesn't play Daemons? That's cool. Depending on the edition, a significant percentage of the abilities you non-optionally pay points for, don't even work. That's why when Custodes came out, their gimmick was "We're like Grey Knights, but we work against everything." Spoiler alert; Custodes are really, really strong.

    Similarly, you've got Aeldari vs. Slaanesh. When it doesn't work, it does nothing at all. When it is applied, it's a guaranteed loss. Sweet mechanics!
    Same thing with the aforementioned Deathwatch Secondary. Most of the time it wont do anything at all. When it does apply? That's a GG by Turn 2.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Now for why you should play Ultramarines...The specials.

    Spoiler: Characters
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    Lord of War

    Roboute Guilliman: MONSTER, PRIMARCH. Bobby G's biggest problem is that he's not INFANTRY...Oh, and he costs 380 Points. But lets move on. He has a Rapid Fire 3 ranged weapon that deals 2 damage a pop, so he's got that. However, he also suffers from 'The Gravis Captain' problem, of having two Melee weapons, where one Melee weapon is clearly better than the other one; The Emperor's Sword is a S8, AP-4, deals 3 Damage and deals additional D3 Mortal Wounds on a '6' to wound. Very, very strong model in Melee. But he has a massive problem where he can't actually get there. Additionally, Bobby G must be your army's Warlord, superseding any model with a similar rule, and for the 'privilege', he also gives you +3 CPs, which you need, because your Warlord wont be in your Battalion Detachment, which means your Battalion is going to cost you 3 CPs. Guilliman's +3 CPs is not 'extra' CPs. It's giving you back the CPs you lose by taking Guilliman in the first place. Finally, Bobby G is one of the few models left in the game with a 3+ Invulnerable save, and, the first time Bobby G is destroyed, roll a 4+, and return him to play more than 1" away from enemy models, with D6 Wounds. Yes, Bobby G can teleport if your opponent goofs. But, for 380 Points, you need a lot more than what Bobby G is. No, he's actually a massive force multiplier:
    • Aura 12". IMPERIUM units gain +1 to Advance and Charge, re-roll 1s to hit, and re-roll Morale tests. Obviously, this Aura applies to Guilliman himself, and of course, it has nothing at all to do with CORE units. So this Aura hits stuff like Vehicles and Centurions, too. Ideally, this Aura is designed so that you can insert Guilliman into any Faction, any army you want. But, with army-wide Faction bonuses, Guilliman, missing key Faction...Keywords...Means that inserting Guilliman into an IMPERIUM army, is actually deleterious in some fashion. The best place for Bobby G to be, is where he belongs - in an ULTRAMARINES army. Simply because unlike every other Aura, Guilliman does affect units like Centurions and Vehicles.
    • Aura 6". ULTRAMARINES CORE and CHARACTER re-roll 1s to wound. This is not a selectable buff. This is all units, including Bobby G, himself, since he's an ULTRAMARINES CHARACTER. Remember, the above Aura is larger than this Aura. Bobby G has 12" of re-roll 1s to hit, and 6", of re-roll 1s to wound.
    • Fixed Warlord Trait #5. ULTRAMARINES INFANTRY and BIKERS can perform Heroic Interventions. Not useless. Just situational. Remember that you can perform Heroic Interventions, for units that aren't Bobby G. Bobby G doesn't have to get Charged for you to perform an Intervention. This Warlord Trait can create very powerful Melee-castles. Because there are scant few units in the game that are going to Charge Bobby G on purpose. Your opponent just wont do it, because they're not made of straw. But, your opponent will Charge other units. That's where Heroic Interventions come in.

    The major factor that defines Bobby G, is his Auras. He is a Melee beast...With no way to get there. What is he doing, while marching up the board? He is massively improving those powerful, shooty units that Ultramarines are known for. "What units does Guilliman go best with?" ...The ones that are already good.


    HQ

    Marneus Calgar: GRAVIS, CHAPTER MASTER. T5 with 8 Wounds, 2+/4++. Additionally, Calgar takes half damage from all attacks. Very, very strong Character. He carries the normal Rites of Battle Aura, and the Chapter Master selectable buff. He carries a Master-Crafted Storm Bolter, and a pair of bad Power Fists that do D3 Damage, instead of 2. If Calgar is your Warlord, you gain +2 CPs, and his fixed Warlord Trait is refunding CPs. So if spamming Stratagems is what you want to do (it is), Calgar is your guy. Unlike Guilliman, Calgar can be taken in a normal Detachment, and as such, those are actually a bonus 2 CPs, with which you can use to pick up extra Relics. At only 210 Points, Calgar can be seen as preferable to Guilliman, not least because you can potentially take another 2 HQs (one of which can be a Lieutenant, to pick up re-roll 1s to wound), and still be less points than Guilliman. Be wary of taking too many Characters and giving your opponent free Assassinate. But we'll come back to this. The major point of contention between them is that Bobby G does give re-roll 1s to hit to Centurions and Vehicles - that's a massive difference and one that can't be ignored.

    Chief Librarian Tigurius: PRIMARIS, CHIEF LIBRARIAN. He has +1 to Psychic and Deny tests without eating your Warlord Trait for no reason like a normal Chief Librarian would. Additionally, his Force Stave is AP-3 which is very good. But, on top of that, at the start of a Battle Round, choose an ULTRAMARINES CORE or CHARACTER unit within 6"; Your opponent has -1 to hit them. This is an extraordinarily strong ability to grant to any unit with the Bodyguard rule - your Character(s) can't be targeted, and the units that can be targeted, are at -1 to hit. Very good. Tigurius is always worth his points.

    Chaplain Cassius: MASTER OF SANCTITY. T5 is nice. Cassius carries a Combi-Flamer-with-Master-Crafted Boltgun, and his Artificer Crozius. Both of which simply have an extra AP over their usual counterparts. He has Spiritual Leader. But, also he has a b0rked version of an Astartes Banner, which is both better and worse than normal; Aura 6". When an ULTRAMARINES CORE or CHARACTER model is destroyed by a Melee attack, roll a 6, and the enemy unit that made the attack suffers a Mortal Wound.
    Coming home from the Deathwatch, Cassius now talks more, but speaks softer. Also T5. Remember kids, Cassius (Deathwatch) and Cassius (Ultramarines) both exist and neither are Legends'd. GW can have 'character progression' in the game whenever they want. They choose not to.

    Captain Sicarius: Carries a Plasma Pistol that doesn't explode, and a Force Sword that deals Mortal Wounds instead of normal Damage. Ultimately, not very good, since he's missing a key piece of wargear; A Jump Pack. A horrific use of your one CAPTAIN slot. However, his only ability that's actually worth anything, is that every round, one ULTRAMARINES CORE or CHARACTER unit within 6" gains Objective Secured. Situational, but not useless...But also Sicarius is useless.

    Sergeant Telion: SCOUT. He's essentially a Captain in Phobos Armour that doesn't take your CAPTAIN slot. His ability to ignore Look Out, Sir! is pretty potent when he deals 2 Damage with a chance for Mortal Wounds. His ability to ride around in a pimp wagon Land Speeder Storm and still shoot out the top is deceptively strong, because you effectively Telion T6 with 7 extra Wounds, on a platform that has even more weapons. If you aren't going to run Telion around in his very own ride, he does hand out BS2+ to an ULTRAMARINES SCOUT unit within 3" - not +1 to hit. However, the only real reason to do this is if you're using Scouts to fire off Hellfire Shells or Flakk Missile.

    Sergeant Chronus: For +35 Points, he makes a non-Primaris Vehicle BS2+, and the Vehicle regains a Wounds every turn. He's not terrible. Particularly because any Warlord Trait he has, is applied to the Vehicle. Which has some very strong applications. Additionally, Chronus reads as a 35 Point HQ, which means he fits right in with a Combat Patrol in a 'small game' where min-maxing your army lists is king. Costing less than an Astra Militarum HQ, in a Space Marines' list, is a big deal. As always, you want to avoid making terrible units, mediocre. Your real goal is make good units, really good. To that end, the Vehicles to put Chronus in:
    • Vindicator. T8, 2+ Save against ranged attacks.
    • Whirlwind. Can hide out of LoS.
    • Stalker. T8 with a solid 48" range weapon.
    • Land Raider. The +35 points you add to the Land Raider is only a fraction of its real cost, making Chronus much more efficient, here. As always, the standard variant has the Twin Heavy Bolters (2 Damage each), and four Lascannon shots. Bonus, 'cause Chronus doesn't take a 'spot' in the Land Raider, which means you can still run a bunch of Melee models inside.


    Spoiler: Elites
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    FAQ
    Q: Can any of the datasheets in this supplement be from a successor Chapter?
    A: No. These datasheets and named characters can only be from the Ultramarines Chapter.
    Rekt. Play Ultramarines. Not a Successor. Play what GW tells you to play. Although, it's arguable you wont even want to.

    Victrix Honour Guard: Competing quite heavily with Bladeguard Veterans. But, we know that units of 2 models don't mean anything at all. Luckily, these models have Bodyguard, and as such, Look Out, Sir! doesn't apply. But comparing to Bladeguard, Victrix have WS2+, and 4 Attacks, which means that not only do they have more attacks, but their attacks actually connect, too. Another improvement is that as Honour Guard, Victrix have a 2+ Save, and their Ultima Storm Shields give them a 3+ Invulnerable. So, additionally, Victrix are better defensively, too. Finally, Victrix can perform Heroic Interventions (because they're actual Bodyguards), and don't take up Role slots if their Detachment includes a MARNEUS CALGAR model. None of them do. So if you can find a way to run 6 (3*2), you can do that...Although now you're looking at a situation where 6 non-Character models represent 3 Kill Points...But, Victrix are demi-Characters in their own right. As they are Bladeguard+. However, one place where they absolutely fall apart, is that they are only wielding regular Power Swords, which only deal 1 Damage apiece, and are therefore pretty, pretty terrible. But, as a Bodyguard unit with a 2+/3++, offensiveness isn't really what you're taking them for.
    Remember that Guilliman's Warlord Trait is giving Infantry around him the ability to Heroic Intervention. Choose another Bodyguard unit. Victrix are clearly designed to be used with Marneus Calgar, and Hell, the rules actually reinforce that.
    While we're at it, despite being a MONSTER, Guilliman is a CHARACTER with 9 or less Wounds. He can absolutely be Bodyguarded...Which is arguably the only way he should be run.


    Unlike Codex: Space Marines units, the following 'Command Units' do not gain Keywords, they have the Keywords, that they have, and none of them have the Command Squad rule, and all of them are arguably unplayable because of it.

    Chapter Ancient: Take a Chapter Ancient, give it a 2+ Save and a mandatory Power Sword. Lame.

    Chapter Champion: Take a Chapter Champion. +1 Attack, 2+ Save, and replace its Combat Shield with a **** Dagger. This is directly in opposition to the correct way to run a Chapter Champion, which is to replace its Combat Shield with The Shield Eternal. Do not use this model. It's not worth it. The 5+ Invulnerable is better than a **** Dagger. If I've learned anything from YouTube, the most powerful defensive capability of any Infantryman, is a Shield.

    Honour Guard: Company Veterans with a 2+ Save, with Power Axes and Boltguns. Dog****. These guys terrible Bodyguard units, since they're just asking to be shot at and removed anyway. Take whatever Company Veterans you currently have, make them look as cool as possible, and give them whatever wargear you want (Grav-Guns and Storm Shields, come to mind), and call them Honour Guard, because mechanically, taking actual Honour Guard? ...You need your head checked.

    Tyrannic War Veterans: Sternguard, except they're only 17 Points each...Good! Because they're terrible. Except they can re-roll to and wound vs. TYRANIDS only. Oh, your opponents are playing Sororitas? Never mind. They can't take Combi-, Special or Heavy weapons. As superseded by Company Veterans as Sternguard already are, at least Sternguard have options. Do you have a meta that's full of TYRANIDS? ...Cool. Take whatever you want, make them look as cool as possible, and give them whatever wargear you want, and call them Tyrannic War Veterans.
    (Bonus points if you have Primaris Marines as Tyrannic War Veterans. It's just as cool as giving your Deathwatch Librarian a Black Templars Chapter badge. )

    Buff Alert? Tyrannic War Veterans only have one Wound each. That should probably change.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-11-15 at 08:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Helmets are pretty much exactly the same scale.(Primaris marines are bigger but more sensibly proportioned, so have the same heads and hands.) I use Tactical Marine helmets for all my primaris marines (just prefer the vox-grille look) and they look perfectly good. Only thing is to watch the raised gorget that primaris have - can restrict the angles you can put beaky helmets or similar wide helmets at.
    Good to know, thanks for that. I think Lazarus will be okay since his model has a head/helmet option already, so putting another helmet in place will be fine. And if not, nothing that can't be solved with a bit of work with my dremmel.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Since Guilliman is a Primarch, he can go in a supreme command detachment instead of a super-heavy detachment, which costs 0 CP and refunds the CP from one patrol/batallion/brigade detachment, actually.
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