Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Forum Explorer]

What new models from Necrons are worth getting?

Silent King and the Void Dragon for sure. The melee Destroyers with the big blades are supposed to be pretty decent as well.

[Wraith]

Neat. Lets have a look at the contents.

My usual caveat for asking "Is this a good boxed set?" typically comes down to the question, "Is starting a new army by buying two of them - or one of them and a Start Collecting! box - a worthwhile investment?" The way I look at it is that the boxed sets are supposed to be a convenience and a way of saving money, so the less I have to do to their contents to make a functional army, the better.

I don't understand why GW doesn't look at it the same way as I do - what could they possibly hope for more than everyone in the world wanting to buy one of their boxes, if not everyone in the world wanting to buy two of them?

Space Marines - 2 Lieutenants? 20 Reivers? 2 Battlesuits? That's just all kinds of bad. The SC! Vanguard SM box is just 20 Primaris Marines in various configurations, I'd rather buy two of those for a cheaper price (presumably, at this point?) and spend the leftover money on a cool tank/dreadnought/whatever.

What I'd really like to see in one of these boxes would be something like a multikit HQ option - a Lieutenant/Captain who also comes with a spare head and hands to make him into a Chaplain, for example, or a Librarian. Everything is CAD these days, I can't imagine it would be too hard to add an 'upgrade sprue' so that I could buy two of these boxes and instead of having a duplicate of the HQ I could build them slightly different for a different option instead of buying two boxes and then flooding eBay with spare lieutenants that actively takes money away from GW.

[LeSwordfish]

I don't understand why GW doesn't look at it the same way as I do - what could they possibly hope for more than everyone in the world wanting to buy one of their boxes, if not everyone in the world wanting to buy two of them?

Because they might buy one of these discounted boxes and then everything else for an army at full price. The first hit is free (or, like, cheaper) but you don't get two of them.

[snowblizz]

I don't understand why GW doesn't look at it the same way as I do - what could they possibly hope for more than everyone in the world wanting to buy one of their boxes, if not everyone in the world wanting to buy two of them?

That everyone in the world buys 4 smaller boxes of the individual content at absolutely no discount at all.

What I'd really like to see in one of these boxes would be something like a multikit HQ option -[ ...] so that I could buy two of these boxes and instead of having a duplicate of the HQ I could build them slightly different for a different option instead of buying two boxes and then flooding eBay with spare lieutenants that actively takes money away from GW.

GW has an interesting relationship to the aftermarket in that they 1 do not believe it exists, 2 consider that you already bought the stuff anyway so hey profit for them and 3 you wouldn't do that to them would you?
Every solution you think of that includes "then I'd not have to buy..." is self-answering for why it's not done.

AFAIK GW still believes you'll buy an entire box just to get a small extra part. And get inordinately offended when you don't and someone else finds a logistical/financial solution to the problem.

Because they might buy one of these discounted boxes and then everything else for an army at full price. The first hit is free (or, like, cheaper) but you don't get two of them.

When there is even a discount at all.
GW is allergic to anything that even borderlines "customer savings". They've long operated on the assumption that their products are inelastic in demand. Be a shame if people realised maybe that's not necessarily how it has to be.

[Wraith]

Because they might buy one of these discounted boxes and then everything else for an army at full price. The first hit is free (or, like, cheaper) but you don't get two of them.

I suppose I knew the answer even before I asked. GW assumes that it is a monopoly, and that if you want to buy in to their product then you're definitely going to buy everything, all the time. There is no middle ground with plastic crack, either you're not their customer and they don't care if you even exist, or you're mainlining Agrax Earthshade directly into your veins.

Thing is, burying your head in the sand and pretending that's true doesn't make it so. Pandemic, Recession, Furlough, etc - all the stuff we've brought up before, continues to demonstrate how GW seems immune to the idea of making their product accessible and convenient at a time when disposable income is scarce.
Why don't they want a reasonably attractive product to be MORE attractive to new customers? Why DON'T they want to stop paying to produce a generic miniature whose duplicates go into the secondary market, costing GW both the production cost AND a second sale?

Make it easy for people to (want to) give you money, and give them more reasons to only give it to you. That's all I'm suggesting.

When there is even a discount at all.
GW is allergic to anything that even borderlines "customer savings". They've long operated on the assumption that their products are inelastic in demand. Be a shame if people realised maybe that's not necessarily how it has to be.

There is this also, of course. Everything I've said so far is based on the expectation that the new boxes are going to be approximately a little bit cheaper than buying the contents separately. GW have done this before where their 'special bundles' gets you something like 1 and a half Space Marine Bikers 'for free', and nothing else. It's entirely possible that the new boxes aren't generous at all, in which case... what the ****?

[Squark]

What new models from Necrons are worth getting?

The Silent King is strong. Void Dragon is good, although the Nightbringer is better until points adjustments hit and their costs diverge (After that, ideally they'd be balanced against each other. They won't, but one can dream). Canoptek Doomstalkers are also pretty solid, as are Soprekh destroyers.

[Cheesegear]

Space Marines - Interdiction Force
The set comes with a Captain in Phobos Armour, which is very good. A set of Incursors/Infiltrators, and pretty cool of GW, they give you a second set of Incursors/Infiltrators, but GW was really cool and gave you the option of building the Infiltrators/Incursors with skull helmets for no extra cost. Vicky Warsuits, are of course phenomenal, and Impulsors are a nice tank.

Necrons - Eradication Legion
Everything old is new again. Of course with the new 40K starter sets, GW isn't going to replicate any of the new models in another box. Fortunately, there's not a lot you can do with the Necron Codex that isn't already blatantly obvious. Take the units as-is and go to town.

Astra Militarum - Bastion Platoon
Have you ever wanted to play Guard, except not have anything actually good in your army? Now's your chance!

Chaos Space Marines - Decimation Warband
Yep. That's some Chaos Marines right there. Hard to go wrong with Chaos.

Damocles Primaris Marines - Starpulse Cadre
I'm not a fan of Damocles-variant Space Marines. They lose a point of Toughness, and their Armour save is worse, and they trade it for a S5 gun, which is basically the same as S4, AP-1. If you're looking to start a Damocles Chapter of Space Marines for 2021, this is a real bad start. The only thing actually good about the set is arguably the Terminators with Jet Packs. If you're interested in starting Damocles-variant Space Marines, maybe save your money and buy an SC! box or three, instead.

Tyranids - Brood Swarm
Don't do it!

Combat Patrol: Blood Angels
Yeah. If you place Space Marines, this - and the Space Wolves' one - is the Combat Patrol box to buy. Very good set. My only problem with the box is [insert rant about current GW pricing].

[Squark]

Combat Patrol: Blood Angels
Yeah. If you place Space Marines, this - and the Space Wolves' one - is the Combat Patrol box to buy. Very good set. My only problem with the box is [insert rant about current GW pricing].

The only issue with that set is the Librarian would much rather be in phobos armor so he can hang with the incursors. Well, and the Aggressors would be better off as Bladeguard Veterans, but GW is stubbornly refusing to release the last of the new Necron and Space Marine kits.

[Cheesegear]

The only issue with that set is the Librarian would much rather be in phobos armor so he can hang with the incursors.

Whatever goes in the Impulsor is what he hangs out with.

but GW is stubbornly refusing to release the last of the new Necron and Space Marine kits.

I think the issue may have something to do with worldwide problems with shipping, and England has gone into another lockdown pretty recently.


But ultimately I have to be angry at Combat Patrols because they're taking away Start Collecting!s.
...In this case I don't feel like I'm a grognard 'cause SC! boxes are/were really, really ****ing good.

[LeSwordfish]

I think the issue may have something to do with worldwide problems with shipping, and England has gone into another lockdown pretty recently.

IIRC the Vanguard took a while as well, since they came out alongside the supplements. At a guess, we'll get Bladeguard etc when the rest of the supplements are coming out.

[snowblizz]

Damocles Primaris Marines - Starpulse Cadre
I'm not a fan of Damocles-variant Space Marines. They lose a point of Toughness, and their Armour save is worse, and they trade it for a S5 gun, which is basically the same as S4, AP-1. If you're looking to start a Damocles Chapter of Space Marines for 2021, this is a real bad start. The only thing actually good about the set is arguably the Terminators with Jet Packs. If you're interested in starting Damocles-variant Space Marines, maybe save your money and buy an SC! box or three, instead.

I'm ashamed to admit it took me 2 whole sentences to twig. Space Marines indeed.

Kudos, sir, kudos.

[Adrastos42]

I think the issue may have something to do with worldwide problems with shipping, and England has gone into another lockdown pretty recently.

Yeah, I think that very Halloween-themed blood bowl team that only just went up for pre-order is good evidence that they're running behind schedule, also.

[Squark]

Whatever goes in the Impulsor is what he hangs out with... ...I think the issue may have something to do with worldwide problems with shipping, and England has gone into another lockdown pretty recently.

Phibis Librarians can ride vehicles too. Still, the regular Librarian isn't bad. I just think the box would be better with a phobos one instead. As for the Aggressors, I'm just annoyed they managed to give the blood angels the only melee unit in C:SM that prefers +1 to hit in melee over +1 to wound. That's just... poor planning.

[Grim Portent]

Trying to plan out a 2k Primaris Black Templars list, something of a spiritual successor to the old footslogging BT armies of editions past.

HQ

(W) Primaris Gravis Captain; Burning Blade, Frontline Commander

- Company Veterans*; Veteran Sgt/4 Veterans; 5x Power Swords, 5x Storm Shields

- Company Champion*

Primaris Chaplain; Master of Sanctity, Hero of the Chapter (Wise Orator) Ancient Breviary

- Canticle of Hate, Fires of Devotion, Fervent Acclamation

Troops

Assault Intercessors; Intercessor Sgt/4 Intercessors

Assault Intercessors; Intercessor Sgt/4 Intercessors

Assault Intercessors; Intercessor Sgt/4 Intercessors

Assault Intercessors; Intercessor Sgt/4 Intercessors

Assault Intercessors; Intercessor Sgt/4 Intercessors

Elites

Aggressors; Aggressor Sgt/5 Aggressors; Boltsorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Bladeguard Ancient

Bladeguard Veterans; Bladeguard Sgt/5 Bladeguard Veterans

Bladeguard Veterans; Bladeguard Sgt/5 Bladeguard Veterans

Bladeguard Veterans; Bladeguard Sgt/5 Bladeguard Veterans

Primaris Apothecary; Chief Apothecary, The Armour Indomitus, Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer)


Strategems

x2 Relics of the Chapter, 2x Hero of the Chapter



Obviously a one trick pony list, but that's themed BT lists for you.

*The only non-Primaris in the list, but I feel the Veteran Squads bodyguard rule has too much potential to pass up.

[Forum Explorer]

Tyranids - Brood Swarm
Don't do it!

Is that against Tyranids in general or that box in particular? Because for someone starting Tyranids, it seems quite decent. Two of their best ranged units, a good HQ choice, 2 Troop choices, and Gargoyles which aren't good, but can be converted into Termagaunts.

[Saambell]

Is that against Tyranids in general or that box in particular? Because for someone starting Tyranids, it seems quite decent. Two of their best ranged units, a good HQ choice, 2 Troop choices, and Gargoyles which aren't good, but can be converted into Termagaunts.

If I recall, the idea is that Tyranids want to focus on Warriors rather then any of their other troops. Which means that box is only good for the Exocrine, Hive Guard, and maybe the Tyrant though if focusing on Warriors you would prefer Primes as they give a more focused support to them. So that makes the value of the box pretty poor as you really only get anything out of 2 of the kits included. Though if their 9th edition book does something to redeem their swarms, like a rule on termagaunts making them not count for that "kill a bunch of models" victory condition, then maybe we might talk about them beyond Warriors.

[Forum Explorer]

If I recall, the idea is that Tyranids want to focus on Warriors rather then any of their other troops. Which means that box is only good for the Exocrine, Hive Guard, and maybe the Tyrant though if focusing on Warriors you would prefer Primes as they give a more focused support to them. So that makes the value of the box pretty poor as you really only get anything out of 2 of the kits included. Though if their 9th edition book does something to redeem their swarms, like a rule on termagaunts making them not count for that "kill a bunch of models" victory condition, then maybe we might talk about them beyond Warriors.

Tyranid Warriors are a better choice for now, but Genestealers are a safe bet in that they are a staple unit. If Tyranids are ever good, usually that means Genestealers are good. The other thing is that you can run them in units of 5, so you can actually just fill the board with a bunch of little squads if you still want to run a horde army without suffering the downsides.

Genestealers are also much cheaper than kitted out Warriors, so there's that as well.

As for the Prime, you only need one. The Warriors bases are big enough that they can be pretty spread out, and the Prime's aura is big enough to cover a good amount of space. And the Prime is otherwise pretty trash. His melee isn't that impressive and the other HQs all have psyker powers to boot.

[Wraith]

Yeah, I think that very Halloween-themed blood bowl team that only just went up for pre-order is good evidence that they're running behind schedule, also.

You mean the Necromantic Horrors team? They're not meant to be Halloween themed, that's just what Necromantic looks like now. I get what you're saying though, but they're just the one example that doesn't quite work...

[Cheesegear]

Job's a Good 'un. Pretty sure I've finalised my thoughts on all the non-Roster stuff in the Space Marines' book.

****. There's so much stuff to go through with the current Space Marines' Codex. What I really want to do is tell you which entries to take black markers to. But with Space Marines it's just not that simple because there's so much **** that you can do, that potentially has merit, depending on your army build (i.e; Chapter), and depending on your opponent and whether or not you play other Astartes players, or whether you have a good meta that isn't terrible. And then even when you can do those things, why would you?

Also, of course, it's Space Marines. Why am I even complaining? "There is no rules bloat."

[Squark]

Squark’s Guide to Space Wolves in 9^th edition -Part 1

Spoiler: Foreward

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This guide assumes you are already familiar with the base Space Marines Codex. If you’re not, please look up a guide to that before reading this.
Stratagems are in italics
Keywords are in bold
Ability names are underlined

Spoiler: Space Wolves or Space Wolves Successor?

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The 9^th edition codex and supplement finally canonize full-fledged Space Wolf Successor chapters. This allows you access to all the rules regarding successor chapters established in 8^th edition, but if you’re brand new, or a Space Wolves player who didn’t pay attention to all that, I’ll summarize.
What you get by playing Space Wolves

• Access to Space Wolves Unique Characters
• The ability to take Space Wolves relics without using A Trophy Bestowed
• The Hunters Unleashed chapter tactic.

What you get by playing a Space Wolves successor

• The ability to use the successor tactics found in the Space Marines Codex

What you get regardless of which you choose

• Access to all Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Psychic Powers, and Detachment abilities found in both the codex and the supplement
• Access to the Space Wolves Special-Issue Wargear as well as all Relics found in the core rulebook
• Access to All non-unique units found in the supplement
• Access to All units found in the codex except Tactical Marines, Apothecaries, Sternguard Veterans, Vanguard Veterans, Assault Marines, and Devastators. Of the units listed, you have replacements for all but the Apothecary

Spoiler: Detachment Abilities and Special Rules

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Savage Fury: When in Assault Doctrine, unmodified melee attack rolls of ‘6’ cause an additional attack. Most such abilities tied to the assault doctrine struggle to be of much use because the first two turns of the game are by far the most important. You do, however, have several ways to force units into the Assault Doctrine early, making this more likely to come up. Try to avoid using them just because you can, though

Berserk Charge: If a unit with this ability has the Space Wolves keyword, or you chose the Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic, models without the Wolf Guard keyword in these units add one to their attacks characteristic if they charged this turn. This makes Blood Claws competitive with Assault Intercessors in Space Wolves, but not in their successors (because you should never, ever take Inheritors of the Primarch)

Headstrong: Unless a Headstrong unit has a Wolf Guard model in it, that unit can only charge the closest unit. Always found on units with Berserk Charge, so you shouldn’t run those units if you aren’t getting the benefits of Berserk Charge (Or were never planning to charge in the first place). Remember, though, that just because you are eligible to declare a charge, does not mean that you must do so.

Swift Hunters: Units with this ability can charge after advancing, and add 1 to the distance they pile-in and consolidate

In addition: Swiftclaw units (Bike Squads and Attack Bike Squads) gain Berserk Charge and Headstrong. Keep in mind these units cannot take Wolf Guard Pack leaders, and thus cannot avoid the downsides of Headstrong. Not that such units wanted to charge anyway

Spoiler: Stratagems

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Go for the Throat: 2 CP. Once per battle during the command phase once Assault Doctrine is active, until your next command phase, all Space Wolves models’ unmodified wound rolls of 6 improve the AP of your Pistol and Melee weapons by 1. Unfortunately, this only works when your entire army. An impressive coup de grace, but these are not the turns you needed this on.

Cunning of the Wolf: 1 CP per unit (Deployment is not a phase, so you can use this as much as you want). Give a Space Wolves Infantry unit outflank. Provides you with more angles of attack when coming out of reserves. More efficient on high power level units (E.g. Thunderwolves and Assault Centurions) than Strategic reserves. Conversely, Strategic Reserves is more efficient at fitting, say, a Character and a bodyguard unit. Remember that Harald Deathwolf has Outflank already, and is thus a great escort for anything you outflank that's Core.

The Emperor’s Executioners: 1 CP. Fluff stratagem that allows one unit to re-roll melee to-hit and to-wound rolls vs. Thousand Sons for a turn. You were already going to win this anyway in all probability, so why not rub salt in the wound.

Savage Strike: 1 CP for units less than 6, 2 CP otherwise. One unit that charged gets +1 to wound. Pretty good. In case you hadn’t caught on yet, GW is telling you to run units of 5 models. And since this bonus applies to every attack, it’s FAR more cost effective on a unit that makes tons of attacks. Like, say, Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Healing Balms: 1 CP. Heal D3 wounds from a Space Wolves Infantry, Biker, or Cavalry unit within 3” of a Space Wolves Wolf Priest (Chaplain). Weaker than getting free healing from an Apothecary, obviously, but Wolf Priests can actually fight, and thus may be interested in healing themselves.

Pack Hunters: 2 CP. If an enemy unit is engaged with a Space Wolves unit, Space Wolves Beasts and Cavalry roll an extra d6 when charging that unit (discard one die), and re-roll to-wound rolls with their (Crushing) Teeth and Claws weapons.

Relentless Assault: 1 CP. One unit consolidates 3” further. This bonus isn’t cumulative with other bonuses to consolidate.

Cloaked by the Storm: 2 CP. When a Space Wolves Psyker resolves a Tempestas power, this stratagem can be used to give that Rune Priest a 6” <aura that isn’t called an aura> until your next psychic phase. Enemy models subtract 1 from to-hit rolls with ranged weapons against friendly Space Wolves units in the <not-an-aura>

Deed Worthy of a Saga: 2 CP If a Space Wolves Character (vehicles excluded. Sorry, Murderfang) without a warlord trait does whatever is needed to fulfill a Deed of Legend (See below), that character gains the associated Saga ability at the end of the phase (Until the battle is over). Can be used on named Characters if you didn’t give them a warlord trait. Bjorn would appreciate Beastslayer’s aura.

A Trophy Bestowed: 1 CP. When giving a character from a Space Wolves Successor Chapter a relic, you can use this stratagem ONCE to allow it to take a Space Wolves relic instead.

Thane of the Retinue: 1 CP. Give a Sergeant or Pack leader a select piece of special-issue wargear (indicated below with an *). Only usable once. This also requires you to have a relic available for the sergeant to take, so effectively costs 2 CP.

Warrior of Legend: 1 CP. You warlord gets an extra Space Wolves warlord trait and its associated Saga/Deed of Legend.

Bestial Nature: 1 CP. 1 Infantry, Cavalry, or Biker only. Turn assault doctrine on for one unit until your next command phase.

Counter Charge: 0-1 CP. Once Space Wolves unit can perform heroic interventions even if it isn’t a character, and can do so from up to 6” away. Free for characters. Can lead to some mind games when The Armor of Russ (see below) or a Judicar is in play. Also worth considering with Wulfen, since they will always get to attack if they're killed in melee.

Keen Senses: 1 CP. Infantry, Cavalry, or Biker only. One unit gets to ignore penalties to hit and WS/BS, and ignores penalties to charge rolls.

Runic Wards: 1 CP. A Space Wolves unit within 12” of an enemy Psyker can make a Deny the Witch test as if it was a Psyker.

Spoiler: Warlord Traits and Sagas

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Space Wolf warlord traits have a Saga and Deed of Legend associated with them. Fulfilling the requirements of the Deed of Legend gives the unit the 6” Saga aura at the end of the phase.
Beastslayer: +1 to hit and wound vs. Monsters and Vehicles, and get an extra attack when you’re engaged with one (even if you don’t attack it). The hit and wound roll modifiers become an aura once the model destroys a Monster or Vehicle. Very match-up dependent (and thus not great). Potential target for Deed Worthy of a Saga, though.

Wolfkin: Shock Attack now gives +d3 attacks, and is always on. Destroying a model in melee gives the model an aura of perma-Shock Attack. Just… don’t.

Warrior Born: Fight first in the fight phase. Destroying a model makes this an aura. Fight-First abilities don’t do anything if you’re charged, and are thus garbage.

Hunter: +1 to advance and charge rolls, and you can charge even if you advanced or fell back. Successfully charging gives the model an aura that allows Space Wolves to charge after they advance, or advance after falling back if the unit has Swift Hunter. One of the better options.

Aura of Majesty: +3” range to Rites of Battle, Tactial Precision, Chapter Master, Spiritual Leader, and Litanies (Maximum range 9”). Deed of Legend is to be in range to contest an objective that’s at least 6” away from your deployment zone, aura is 6” (not extended by the trait) of auto-pass morale for Core units.

Resolve of the Bear: Ignore wounds on a 6, and your opponent can’t re-roll wound or damage rolls against the character. Losing a wound turns the ignore wounds into an aura, which sounds good, but remember characters who start losing wounds often lose a lot of them at once. Good candidate for Deed Worthy of a Saga, since by that point you should know if spending the resources is worth it.

Spoiler: Relics and Special-Issue Wargear

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To recap, only Space Wolves can take the Capital-R Relics normally, but Successors and Space Wolves can take special-issue wargear. Wargear eligible for Thane of the Retinue has an *.
The Armour of Russ: 2+/4++, and one enemy unit in engagement phase fights last. Very solid.

The Wulfen Stone: 6” Aura of re-roll charges. Once per battle, give one unit within 6” with Savage Fury active extra hits on an unmodified 5 as well as a 6. Another excellent choice.

Fireheart: The little Plasma Pistol that could. Relic pistols remain a terrible choice.

Black Death: Power Axe that makes d6 extra attacks. Take the teeth of terra instead, which won’t cost you points and does 2 damage.

Mountain-Breaker Helm: Before consolidating, deal D3 mortal wounds to an enemy unit within 1” on a 2+. You have better things to take

The Storm’s Eye: Librarian Rune Priest only. Once per turn after you successfully active a tempestas power, enemy units within 12” take 1 mortal wound on a 4+

The Pelt of the Balewolf: Enemy melee attacks are -1 to hit and wound. Interesting option for maximum tankiness.

Special-issue Wargear
Adamantine Mantle: Ignore wounds on a 5+

Artificer Armor: 2+/5++

Master-Crafted Weapon*: 1 weapon without the word master-crafted in its name gets +1 damage, and becomes a relic.

Digital Weapons*: Make 1 extra attack when you fight. If that attack hits, deal 1 mortal wound instead of rolling to wound with that attack.

Morkai’s Teeth Bolts*: One bolt weapon of your choice gains the ability to fire a single Morkai’s Teeth Bolt instead of its normal attacks. If the attack hits, you don’t do damage, but for the remainder of turn, re-roll 1’s to wound vs. that unit.

Wolf Tail Talisman: 4+ ignore mortal wounds in the psychic phase

Frost Weapon*: +1 Strength and Damage to a power sword, power axe, master-crafted power axe, master-crafted power sword, or lightning claw (this improves both lightning claws if you have 2). That (pair of) weapons is now a chapter relic.

Runic Weapon: +1 Strength to a force axe, force sword, or force stave, and +1 to deny the witch. Librarians Rune Priests only.

Spoiler: Tempestas Discipline

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Living Lightning: WC 6 Witchfire. Closest enemy unit takes d3 mortal wounds. Then, roll a d6. On a 2-4, deal 1 wound to each other enemy unit within 6” and line of sight of the original enemy, or d3 mortal wounds on a 5+

Murderous Hurricane: WC 6 Malediction. One enemy unit within 18” cannot fire overwatch unless its wholly on/within terrain, and it can’t fight until after all Space Wolves units have fought. Lasts until the start of your next psychic phase.

Tempest’s Wrath: WC 6 Malediction. One enemy unit within 24” gets-1 to hit until your next psychic phase.

Instincts Awoken: WC 6 Blessing. Switch to assault doctrine for a unit within 18” until your next psychic phase. If you’re already in the assault doctrine, instead improve that unit’s AP by 1 on an unmodified wound roll of 6 (cumulative with assault doctrine)

Storm Caller: WC 6 Blessing. 6” Aura of light cover for Space Wolves until your next psychic phase.

Jaws of the World Wolf: WC 7 Witchfire. Target an enemy unit within 18” within line of sight. Roll a D6 for each model in that unit, adding one if you rolled a 9 or better. Each 6+ deals one mortal wound.

Spoiler: Secondary Objectives

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Glory Kills (Purge the Enemy): 2 VPs each round for destroying at least one character, or 1 VP if you at least did 3 wounds to a character. 3 VPs each round for destroying a Monster, or 1 VP if you did at least 3 wounds to a monster. No double dipping on Character Monsters. Forcing you to delay killing important enemy assets to score more points is not a good plan.

Heroic Challenge (Purge the Enemy): You and your opponent each choose a Character model during the first command phase (or the Warlord if anyone lacks a character) to act as champion. Get 5 VPs for destroying the enemy’s champion, 10 VPs for destroying the enemy’s champion with a melee attack, or 15 VPs for destroying the enemy’s champion with a melee attack from your champion. Your opponent is going to make this very difficult for you. Take something else.

A Mighty Saga (No Mercy, No Respite): Each round, get 2 VPs for fulfilling objectives with your Warlord (max 15)
-Deal at least 1 wound to a Monster or Vehicle with melee attacks.
-Destroy at least 1 Monster or Vehicle with melee attacks.
-Destroy 1 Character with melee attacks.
-Destroy 5 or more models with melee attacks
-Be within range of an objective marker wholly within your opponent’s deployment zone (many missions don’t even have one of these).
Your Warlord has a big enough target on his head without this objective. Pass.

Warrior Pride (No Mercy, No Respite): Score 3 VPs at the end of your turn if at least two Space Wolves units charged or are engaged with enemy units. The best of the bunch, but you can probably earn more VP with Oath of Moment or one of the Core Rulebook objectives.

Still a rough draft. Comments and critiques?

[Adrastos42]

Still reading through the guide, Cheesegear, but I did notice one thing - you queried the Assault Launchers stratagem reducing attacks with no minimum. That's because the minimum is set in the rulebook:

S, T, A and Ld can never be modified below 1.

I don't have access to the main rulebook atm, but it's on page 8 in the basic rules pdf.

[Squark]

New Metawatch

"No, see, if you treat each space marine sub-faction as their own faction, they're actually underrepresented!"

...

...

... wut

[DaedalusMkV]

New Metawatch

"No, see, if you treat each space marine sub-faction as their own faction, they're actually underrepresented!"

...

...

... wut

The amount of willful blindness in that article is genuinely hilarious. "Codex: Space Marines represents 33% of everyone playing Warhammer 40k. But we'll count it sixteen times, because it's special, so actually it's not overused at all!"

- But what about Chaos? The Chaos Legions are damn near as heavily differentiated as Space Marine Chapters. We should probably count them at least ten times too, right? No? Just three? Okay. So for them it's about if you have a book. Guess we should have counted Space Marines... Like, three, for Deathwatch and GK? Five times? Seven? Ugh. Space Marines have too many supplements. DW and GK should definitely counted separately, they don't really play the same way at all, but the rest is one big 'I don't know how to fairly distribute this'. Though anyone who counts Ultramarines and Imperial Fists as different factions but not Black Legion and World Eaters needs a whack upside the head.

"Some factions have lower winrates, but show up at the top of tournaments with regular frequency. This means they're hard to play but effective, and thus skill isn't totally irrelevant!"

-Yeah, that's true. Except they're really not that different for the factions that win, and the example you used had a 60% winrate overall. That's nightmarish. Nothing should have a 60% winrate. MOBAs start rating characters 'broken' at 55% global winrate. Compare with an old favorite and still popular faction, T'au, with a 43% winrate and 0% appearance in winning slots at tourneys. Guess skill doesn't matter for them. A better example to make their point would have been CSM, who have a low 40% winrate, worse than the T'au, but still win tourneys because they're hard to use but potentially effective. None of which excuses Salamanders, Harlequins and Daemons* ~60% winrates.

That said? Those stats are nice, and actually well arranged and selected. That big old chart two thirds of the way in is pretty much exactly what someone in a position for balancing a game would want. If whoever actually assembles the statistics wrote the article doing nothing but pointing out which things fell outside of confidence intervals in which metrics, I'd have been quite pleased.


*Technically Ynnari are listed at a very high winrate as well, but like Deathwatch probably don't have a large enough sample size to be counted.

[Lord Torath]

The Falcon: The Adepta Sororitas have been a sleeper hit since they rang in the new year with their first fully fledged codex of the 3rd Millennium.

Wait does this mean Sisters of Battle haven't had a fully fledged codex since 2nd Edition (1997)? I mean, not counting the one they got at the beginning of this year, obviously.

What does "fully fledged" mean?

[Squark]

Wait does this mean Sisters of Battle haven't had a fully fledged codex since 2nd Edition (1997)? I mean, not counting the one they got at the beginning of this year, obviously.

Yes

What does "fully fledged" mean?

Exactly what you (Lord Torath, I mean) think it means. But it's not in GW's best interests to acknowledge that in what amounts to an ad blurb, so they didn't

[Wraith]

Wait does this mean Sisters of Battle haven't had a fully fledged codex since 2nd Edition (1997)? I mean, not counting the one they got at the beginning of this year, obviously.

What does "fully fledged" mean?

Haven't a clue. Codex: Witch-Hunters was specifically the inclusion of Sororitas - as opposed to Daemon-Hunters for Grey Knights - and it was published in 2003.

Then again, SoB 4th was a White Dwarf supplement, and 6th Edition was a full release but only available as a digital download and never as a dead-tree version, but otherwise it arbitrarily looks like he means "This is the first paper-bound book with the words 'Adeptus Sororitas' printed on the front".... which technically discounts Sisters of Battle 2nd edition too. Therefore it's the first and only release of Codex Ad.Sor. EVER!

[Squark]

Haven't a clue. Codex: Witch-Hunters was specifically the inclusion of Sororitas - as opposed to Daemon-Hunters for Grey Knights - and it was published in 2003.

Then again, SoB 4th was a White Dwarf supplement, and 6th Edition was a full release but only available as a digital download and never as a dead-tree version, but otherwise it arbitrarily looks like he means "This is the first paper-bound book with the words 'Adeptus Sororitas' printed on the front".... which technically discounts Sisters of Battle 2nd edition too. Therefore it's the first and only release of Codex Ad.Sor. EVER!

... I suspect that the writer forgot Witch Hunters was Sisters+Inquisition.

[Blackhawk748]

Wait does this mean Sisters of Battle haven't had a fully fledged codex since 2nd Edition (1997)? I mean, not counting the one they got at the beginning of this year, obviously.

What does "fully fledged" mean?

In order of their release

2nd Edition:: Sisters exist!
3rd Edition: Witch Hunters, so they share it with Ordo Hereticus. This is not a bad thing.
5th Ed: A white Dwarf Book
6th Ed: A terribly formatted digital release that only worked right in one reader. No, it wasn't Adobe.
8th Ed: We exist again!

So, if we wanna get technical, sure, but pretty much everyone loved the Witch Hunters book as it just added more stuff for SoBs to play with so it counts. The others are just the standard Sisters mess.

[Cheesegear]

Let's Read with Cheesegear.

New Metawatch

Okay, straight off the bat, they cite their source as 40Kstats.com and one the webmasters of said site. ****ing great. You did something right. 40Kstats is a great place to go. But, having said that, we know that just by virtue of being on WarCom, the disingenuousness is already off the charts, and I wonder if they'll address the actual talking points of the community:

- What Secondaries are people taking most often? Against which Faction?

- How many VPs are scored in Turns 1 and 2, vs. 3 onwards?

- Taking an entire meta's stats is poor science, 'cause what really matters is Top 8, or Top 4 in each tournament.

- Individual Factions are less important than the playstyle. Diversity of Factions is meaningless, if Diversity of Play, doesn't exist.

Of course, anyone who has re-rolled a 1 into a 1 will know first-hand that, when it comes to statistics, the Nurgling is in the details. These numbers are not deterministic – it’s up to you to make the most of them and use them to inform your choices as you approach building your list, mastering your strategy and, of course, debating the merits of the meta across the internet.

Nice out you wrote for yourself.

Finally, it canÂ’t go unsaid that, although thereÂ’s been no shortage of enthusiasm for the latest edition, our community hasnÂ’t played nearly as many games as we might like due to current world events.

If that's true, then why write this article at all?
No. The problem is that there currently is enough data, and people are spotting certain trends in the meta that worry them and make the game not worth playing. And GW needs to do damage control, because people figured out 9th Ed.'s meta a lot quicker than they had anticipated (keeping all old rules in circulation certainly helped with that). That's why the article is written, to try and tell 'competitive players on the fence' like me, who have the money to buy an army from scratch, to buy back into tournaments and spend big on a 2000 Point army. Instead of saying "Kill Team is a great game and I will only buy 20 models and stop."

[Each Faction should only account for 3.2% of the meta.]

If we take that as true, the data holds true, mostly. However, if you're like me, you consider Adeptus Astartes, Heretic Astartes, Sororitas, Custodes and Harlequins all as the same playstyle (and I'm still on the fence whether or not to include T'au, Daemons and Necrons in that assessment). That playstyle, represents ~50% of the meta. Infamously, an Ork list won the Adelaide GT with only 25 models in it. Faction isn't an issue. Playstyle, and choice of Secondaries, and Turns 1 and 2 alpha strikes, are.

[Player Skill Matters]

Of course it does. Because you're taking into account, players that shouldn't be taken into account. Your data is flawed. What you should really do is go back to 40Kstats and use that Top 4 page and sort the results using that, and only that page. "These are the Faction that the best players, consider the best Factions, and consider them highly enough to actually run them as opposed to something else, and not only run them, but win tournaments with them."

Also **** me dead, it really helps your argument when you split Astartes into Sub-Factions, because it means you get to claim that 'Space Marines' has a lower win percentage, because you don't actually have 'Space Marines' in the data. Again, I know that not all Space Marines play the same. But, defensively, in comparison to other Factions, all Space Marines are the same.

[Orks are good]

Aww sheeeeeit. The problem is that you've cited your source - in more ways than one. I can look this up.

1. I already know about the Adelaide GT Ork list with 'only' 25 models in it. So, let's calm down.
2. The Ork list provided on WarCom, that list came 2nd Place (the text implies that it won). That tournament, was ultimately won by Custodes.

But, I know what's actually happening. Because I've lived it, in 5th Ed. when I played Dark Eldar, and in 6th Ed., when I played Space Marines. And the problem is that the article straight up alludes to exactly what's happened, but then implies that people are stupid. Not that the people playing Orks, are actually really, really clever.
(Remember when you said player skill matters, not one paragraph ago?)

The Blast rule and an assumed focus on elite armies led many to think that the green tide was washed out.

What we have here, is a meta-buster. In 5th Ed., when I ran Dark Eldar Wych spam and threw Haywire Grenades at Razorbacks (and then Dark Eldar were nerfed into oblivion). In 6th Ed., when I played Space Marines with a Fortress of Redemption and three Vindicators and put pie-plates on Characters. I came up against a meta-buster in 7th Ed., against Ork players with 15 Deffkoptas and 30 Tankbustas vs. my Gladius - Razorbacks don't last too long under that kind of firepower, even when they're free.

When you know what the meta is, or will be, it's incredibly easy to actually take any Faction you want, as long as the Faction you want, has the tools it needs to win against the opponents that you know will be there.

1. You have Ork players who have 'read' the meta, and thus, tailored to the meta.
2. You also have Ork players, who come up against other players who have 'read' the meta, and thus are gottem'd when faced against an opponent with ~100 models in their army. They weren't expecting Orks, and loaded their lists with 2-shot, 2-Damage weapons, and thus have not considered that maybe, just maybe, they do need Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles, just in case.
3. Deathwatch doesn't have auto-win vs. Xenos yes, because their Supplement isn't factored into the tournament data, yet.

[Sororitas are good]

They sure are. The problem is that anyone who liked Sororitas, didn't pick them up, because they were ****. Now that they're good, and people want to buy them (rules sell models), they can't because worldwide reasons. But, additionally, Sororitas are Space Marines with a different name. So here we come to another problem in the community:

"I get to play the game, using the models I like. But, I have to play the game, in a way that I don't like. What do?"

[Chaos Daemons]

Multi-wound models with good saves do really well. Who knew?

Here is a more accurate depiction of the data that you really care about, taken from 40K stats - their source, too.

Spoiler

Show

Faction				Top 4	%Meta	Win
Chaos Daemons			9.00	8.41	4
Harlequins			9.00	8.41	4
Adepta Sororitas		7.00	6.54	3
Adeptus Custodes		7.00	6.54	3
Cult Mechanicus			7.00	6.54	1
Death Guard			7.00	6.54	1
Orks				7.00	6.54	4
Salamanders*			7.00	6.54	4
Ultramarines*			6.00	5.61	
White Scars*			6.00	5.61	1
Space Wolves*			4.00	3.74	1
Blood Angels*			3.00	2.80	1
Drukhari			3.00	2.80	
Genestealer Cults		3.00	2.80	1
Necrons				3.00	2.80	
Black Templars*			2.00	1.87	
Chaos Space Marines		2.00	1.87	
Dark Angels*			2.00	1.87	
Grey Knights			2.00	1.87	1
Imperial Fists*			2.00	1.87	
Imperial Knights		2.00	1.87	
Iron Hands*			2.00	1.87	
Raven Guard*			2.00	1.87	1
Tyranids			2.00	1.87	
Astra Militarum			1.00	0.93

*Space Marines			36	34	8

Sauce: 40Kstats.com
Factions that reach the Top 4 or 'semi-finals'.
n=107.

No T'au. No Thousand Sons. No Deathwatch...And frankly I'm surprised that GsC are there.

Ahh...That's a better representation of the meta that actually matters.
'Space Marines' - not Grey Knights - represent 34% of the high-tier meta. "Elite Armies with Good Saves' represent...Most of the high-tier meta. With Orks already known as the meta-buster (the exception that proves the rule). Turns out I should start calling Daemons, 'Space Marines' too.

EDIT:
Another amazing stat, that I pointed out at the time, came from Goonhammer; It's not enough to win - or lose - it's by how much? I remember reading that on average, Orks could only barely scrape their wins by 1-2 VPs, whilst Harlequins dominated their opponents with a ~10 VP separation, that when you go up against Harlequins, you've already lost the game before it starts.

[Wraith]

Ah, the age-old adage: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.

If anyone here was even remotely expected anything else, I have a bridge for sale that you might be interested in.