Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Blackhawk748]

EDIT:
Another amazing stat, that I pointed out at the time, came from Goonhammer; It's not enough to win - or lose - it's by how much? I remember reading that on average, Orks could only barely scrape their wins by 1-2 VPs, whilst Harlequins dominated their opponents with a ~10 VP separation, that when you go up against Harlequins, you've already lost the game before it starts.

That's a set of stats I'd like to see. How much are the people winning by? I know that this may get complicated by certain matchups, but that's why I'd just take an average.

[Cheesegear]

That's a set of stats I'd like to see. How much are the people winning by? I know that this may get complicated by certain matchups, but that's why I'd just take an average.

The problem is that - at least publicly - places that do this sort of thing are taking the wrong average. Or, more accurately, an average of the wrong sample. I have a feeling I know why.

But this is what I was talking about, from Goonhammer, from October.

Spoiler: For/Against

Show

(I believe, after Space Marine Codex, but before Deathwatch and Space Wolves Supplement. So that's 'vanilla' Space Wolves at the top, and 'vanilla' Deathwatch at the very bottom.)

Daemons and Harlequins, win games by a lot. Let's see what armies are on top right now?
Daemons, Harlequins, Sisters, Custodes, AdMech, Death Guard, Orks*, Salamanders.
(Does that match the above Table? ...Huh, that's weird, isn't it?)

*One of these things are not like the others. But, just for the sake of argument, let's see what a Kustom Force Field and 3x3 Meganobz doe- Oh. Nevermind.

My previous post, combined with the above image/table is probably more valuable than anything you may have just read on WarCom.

[Renegade Paladin]

So, funny story. I put the Imperial Armour Compendium in my Forge World shopping cart but didn't pull the trigger yet because I'm trying to rustle up a group order to get free shipping. So they sent me a reminder e-mail about it - and in said e-mail advertised the indices that they just made obsolete and aren't selling anymore.

[Squark]

So, Durkhai will be the first xenos codex of 2021, and the first codex of 9th edition where a 3+ Save isn't considered standard. That's not a bad choice, although I would have gone with Nids to contrast all the Marines.

[Wraith]

Drukharii and Dark Angels both in short order. The Space Elves get buffed attacks and weapon damage, whereas the First Legion get Deathwing Dreadnoughts and a bunch of crap Stratagems that will never, ever get used. Win some, lose some, but I was seriously considering a new Dark Angels army and Deathwing Dreads sound right up my alley.

On a tangentially related note as it came as part of the same preview: The new Van Saar expansion for Necromunda looks incredible! They're absolutely stupid, but in exactly the right way that I adore, like the robotic Ambulls and the Palatine Enforcers' robot dogs. Haven't played the game in over 2 years, but I want them.

[JNAProductions]

Just got my Indomitus Box, finally.

Can't build the models yet (work, work, work) but did have a chance to take a gander at Crusade.

Has anyone attempted to make their own Crusade stuff? Possibly patterned after the Crons and Marines stuff?

[AdmiralCheez]

Drukharii and Dark Angels both in short order. The Space Elves get buffed attacks and weapon damage, whereas the First Legion get Deathwing Dreadnoughts and a bunch of crap Stratagems that will never, ever get used. Win some, lose some, but I was seriously considering a new Dark Angels army and Deathwing Dreads sound right up my alley.

New drukhari stuff? I picked a good time to start that faction! Any idea if new models are coming with that update like the Necrons got, or is it just a new codex?

[LeSwordfish]

New drukhari stuff? I picked a good time to start that faction! Any idea if new models are coming with that update like the Necrons got, or is it just a new codex?

At least one new model - probably Lilith - has been teased, but I wouldn't bet on any others.

[Tome]

I dunno, I'd say there's good odds of a new model for Vect. He had one already, and he does still show up a lot in the lore.

[Forum Explorer]

So, Durkhai will be the first xenos codex of 2021, and the first codex of 9th edition where a 3+ Save isn't considered standard. That's not a bad choice, although I would have gone with Nids to contrast all the Marines.

Wait, are they the codex with the weird skull on the front? Or has that been confirmed as something else?

[AdmiralCheez]

At least one new model - probably Lilith - has been teased, but I wouldn't bet on any others.

I dunno, I'd say there's good odds of a new model for Vect. He had one already, and he does still show up a lot in the lore.

Well, a couple of unique characters is still better than no new models at all!

[Wraith]

Wait, are they the codex with the weird skull on the front? Or has that been confirmed as something else?

If you're referring to the two "[REDACTED]" codices that were shown on the roadmap last month, then yes it appears so. The full list appears to be:

November 2020: Space Wolves & Deathwatch (Confirmed in October 2020)
December 2020: Blood Angels & Death Guard (Confirmed in October 2020)
January 2021: [REDACTED] & [REDACTED] (Teased in October 2020, confirmed to be Dark Angels & Drukhari in November 2020)

[Saambell]

Wait, are they the codex with the weird skull on the front? Or has that been confirmed as something else?

Its the codex that has a Dark Eldar right on the front. Its basically mono chrome of all dark blue, so easily to be missed. Dark blue armour, on dark blue background, with a little bit of light blue fog and a small dash of dark red hair. But its right there with a Wytch(I think? Might be a khabalite) on the front. Under the Death Guard stuff, but before the Dark Angel stuff.

Edit: I was going off hour old memory and forgot the colours already. Red fog, blue armour, and right under the Death Guard Crusade stuff.

[Forum Explorer]

Its the codex that has a Dark Eldar right on the front. Its basically mono chrome of all dark blue, so easily to be missed. Dark blue armour, on dark blue background, with a little bit of light blue fog and a small dash of dark red hair. But its right there with a Wytch(I think? Might be a khabalite) on the front. Under the Death Guard stuff, but before the Dark Angel stuff.

Edit: I was going off hour old memory and forgot the colours already. Red fog, blue armour, and right under the Death Guard Crusade stuff.

Yeah, the new Codex cover is completely different than that redacted picture. No idea what that was supposed to be if anything.

[Squark]

At least one new model - probably Lilith - has been teased, but I wouldn't bet on any others.

If current releases are anything to go by, a fortification is a virtual certainty.

[Avaris]

Yeah, the new Codex cover is completely different than that redacted picture. No idea what that was supposed to be if anything.

It was a clip of artwork from the main rulebook that people got over excited over. A placeholder, nothing more!

[Cheesegear]

So, Durkhai will be the first xenos codex of 2021, and the first codex of 9th edition where a 3+ Save isn't considered standard.

Diversity of Faction isn't the same as Diversity of Play.

Drukhari are currently a hybrid of Death Guard and Harlequins, and as good as neither.
Where does the new book go?

More like Harlequins and Wych spam?
Or more like Death Guard and Grotesque and Engine spam?

...Or - the worst choice - more like Astartes with Kabal units?

I look forward to seeing their Faction Secondaries, and nothing else. Because that's what causes Diversity of Play - the win conditions.

[Squark]

Diversity of Faction isn't the same as Diversity of Play.

Drukhari are currently a hybrid of Death Guard and Harlequins, and as good as neither.
Where does the new book go?

More like Harlequins and Wych spam?
Or more like Death Guard and Grotesque and Engine spam?

...Or - the worst choice - more like Astartes with Kabal units?

I look forward to seeing their Faction Secondaries, and nothing else. Because that's what causes Diversity of Play - the win conditions.

Fair point. I guess I meant I was hoping the Dark Eldar's reputation for frail but mobile units would lead to play that differed from "Camp 2 centerfield objectives, murder your opponent off one of theirs"

Then again, Frail but mobile encourages alpha strikes, so... blegh.

[Cheesegear]

Fair point. I guess I meant I was hoping the Dark Eldar's reputation for frail but mobile units

Which 'frail' units are you talking about? Because I would never rate any army that has both an Invulnerable save and Ignore Wounds as 'frail'.

Oh right. T3. Must be 'frail'.
Let's see how Sororitas and Harlequins are doing...
...Oh


Drukhari haven't been 'fragile' since they were Dark Eldar.

[Squark]

Which 'frail' units are you talking about? Because I would never rate any army that has both an Invulnerable save and Ignore Wounds as 'frail'.

Oh right. T3. Must be 'frail'.
Let's see how Sororitas and Harlequins are doing...
...Oh


Drukhari haven't been 'fragile' since they were Dark Eldar.

I was mostly thinking of what happens to wyches who get caught out of melee in kill team. But that's an extreme example in which things have gone wrong. I concede the point.

[Forum Explorer]

Which 'frail' units are you talking about? Because I would never rate any army that has both an Invulnerable save and Ignore Wounds as 'frail'.

Oh right. T3. Must be 'frail'.
Let's see how Sororitas and Harlequins are doing...
...Oh


Drukhari haven't been 'fragile' since they were Dark Eldar.

Their Invulnerable is usually a 5++ and they ignore damage on a 6. Now, I wouldn't count Homunculus Coven as fragile, but everything outside of them sure is. Particularly since their Ignore Wounds is a lot less valuable now that multi-damage rules the meta and they are mostly 1 wound models.

For that matter, they don't typically have a good armor save either. So against Space Marines you often don't get a save at all.

[Cheesegear]

Their Invulnerable is usually a 5++ and they ignore damage on a 6. Now, I wouldn't count Homunculus Coven as fragile, but everything outside of them sure is.

Well, that's what I'm talking about, and that's what I was getting at earlier.

In previous editions, Kabal units have always appeared as 'Craftworlds with Spikes', and, I don't know if you know this, but in every single edition Eldar/Craftworlds have been very, very strong. Whereas 'Craftworlds with Spikes', is the same thing you already have, except worse. Dark Eldar, and specifically Kabal units, have had a bad reputation for being terrible for as long as I can remember, and I literally don't remember a time when that wasn't the case. However, due to marketing and zeitgeist, I have a feeling that whenever people have thought about Dark Eldar, they've thought about Kabalite Warriors in paper boats, which, again, as far as I can remember, has been the worst way to play Dark Eldar, because Kabalite Warriors have never been good, except as a hard counter to NidZilla back in what, 3rd Ed.? However, Dark Eldar got their 3.5 Revision, and Tyranids 4th BALEETED NidZilla from existance. So, yeah. Warriors have just never been required except for an extremely brief window between Tyranids 3rd, and Dark Eldar 3.5?

Playing 'Craftworlds with Spikes' has never appealed to me, and neither has Venom spam.

What's appealed to me has been Wyches and Hamonculi.
Unfortunately, 5th Ed. dropped Dark Eldar on their heads, and the Faction just didn't recover until it was renamed Drukhari in late(ish) 8th Ed. But, 8th Ed. also gave rise to:
a) Death Guard, an extremely noob- and newb-friendly Faction, and
b) Harlequins were really good - and then they were really terrible.

In late(ish) 8th., you had a choice with Drukhari. You could play bad Death Guard, you could play bad Harlequins, or you could play second-fiddle to the Craftworld Detachment that was actually the core of your army, and the Drukhari were just...There.

Finally giving you a really, really, really ****ty choice:
- Grotesques cost a ****-ton, each, and you need at least 10.
- Talos/Cronus Engines cost a ****-ton, each, and you want loads of 'em. (Like Bloat Drones, but not as good!)
- Let's see what it takes to make a decent Beastmaster unit...Oh. Nevermind. It's like building an AdMech Robot list, except you buy the Robots individually!

In order to make Drukhari good, you had to spend a lot of money. Except, as you may have guessed, 'good Drukhari', doesn't actually mean anything, 'cause you're still not even close to the clocked Space Marine-meta (by which I mean Space Marines, Craftworlds, T'au and Daemons), and you don't hold a candle at all to the non-clocked horde meta. Is there only Venom spam (...yes)?

But here, at the beginning of 9th where nothing looks like it's changing, Venom-spam is definitely on the way out, and you're asking yourself, why didn't you spent the last two years buying up Grotesques and Talos/Cronus Engines before GW priced hiked them?

But that still leaves the problem of Drukhari trying to be three armies at once, and not as good as any single army that already exists:
Craftworlds with Spikes
Harlequins with Spikes
Death Guard with...Well, umm...Less tentacles and warts?

Two out of those three are on top of the meta right now.

[AdmiralCheez]

Granted, I've only played three small games (<700 points each) against friends, but my Drukhari have dominated each of those games. Sure, if you get caught in a bad spot or get unlucky with the dice, they can get taken down, but the invulnerable saves and chance to ignore wounds has saved my army more than anything else. I wouldn't call them frail unless you roll poorly. It's just an alternate form of defense instead of straight armor. And if you're not taking advantage of the open-topped vehicles to give another layer of protection to your troops as they fire from within, that's just a wasted opportunity.

[druid91]

Honestly.... I'm kind of curious, how a tournament would go if you could say.... take a 3000 point 'army' but only field 1500-2000 points of it in any given game. Giving you the ability to swap out or tailor to a degree.

[Tvtyrant]

Honestly.... I'm kind of curious, how a tournament would go if you could say.... take a 3000 point 'army' but only field 1500-2000 points of it in any given game. Giving you the ability to swap out or tailor to a degree.

Pretty sure that would just benefit the Imperium, since they have the most choices.

[Avaris]

Honestly.... I'm kind of curious, how a tournament would go if you could say.... take a 3000 point 'army' but only field 1500-2000 points of it in any given game. Giving you the ability to swap out or tailor to a degree.

That’s kind of what Crusade is intended to do, and also seen in Kill Team (though I think the roster system there has problems? Cheesegear has talked about it before). If running this, I’d probably want to either use Power Level or have some system that allows for a bonus if you have significant points left over after making your choices: getting a roster where the units are genuinely interchangeable would be difficult, a lot of players would have one or two builds they tend to use.

A similar thing that could be fun would be to take a leaf out of the Necromunda book: random selection from a roster. As a system I am making up as I go, tell each player to bring a 3000 point force, subdivided into 6 strike forces (strike forces don’t need to be exactly 500 points, but it is advisable to be near that. Then, for each game, the player randomly selects two strike forces they deploy as normal, and a third that is strategic reserves, or whatever. Could vary number of strike forces etc in use game to game.

[Squark]

Honestly.... I'm kind of curious, how a tournament would go if you could say.... take a 3000 point 'army' but only field 1500-2000 points of it in any given game. Giving you the ability to swap out or tailor to a degree.

Pretty sure that would just benefit the Imperium, since they have the most choices.

Soup would probably have to be outlawed. I don't see this working very well at higher value points without making it so that you're just switching out detachments, either. Rosters struggle when points are too granular.

[Wraith]

A similar thing that could be fun would be to take a leaf out of the Necromunda book: random selection from a roster. As a system I am making up as I go, tell each player to bring a 3000 point force, subdivided into 6 strike forces (strike forces don’t need to be exactly 500 points, but it is advisable to be near that. Then, for each game, the player randomly selects two strike forces they deploy as normal, and a third that is strategic reserves, or whatever. Could vary number of strike forces etc in use game to game.

It's an interesting way to make a game, but the problem remains the same; either you have to allow all 6 strike forces to be the same, in which case everything just gets 6 of their best unit, or you force them to all be different in which case things get REALLY wonky.

What is 'different'? Space Marine Lieutenant with a Chainsword vs. exactly the same but with a Power Sword? 5 man Devastator Squad with 3 Gravcannons/1 Missile Launcher vs. 2 Gravcannons/2 Missile Launcher (or whatever, you get the idea)? What if you're playing Custodes and you can't build a legal force in 500 points? Or worse, what if you're Grey Knights or Tyranids and you don't have enough units worth taking in your Codex to fill 6 different forces?

Either everyone has the same units that they always do, in which case the best armies spam their best units like they would do anyway, or you handicap the bad armies who have to actually think about what they put in their army and can't reliably field something good in every slot.

[Avaris]

It's an interesting way to make a game, but the problem remains the same; either you have to allow all 6 strike forces to be the same, in which case everything just gets 6 of their best unit, or you force them to all be different in which case things get REALLY wonky.

What is 'different'? Space Marine Lieutenant with a Chainsword vs. exactly the same but with a Power Sword? 5 man Devastator Squad with 3 Gravcannons/1 Missile Launcher vs. 2 Gravcannons/2 Missile Launcher (or whatever, you get the idea)? What if you're playing Custodes and you can't build a legal force in 500 points? Or worse, what if you're Grey Knights or Tyranids and you don't have enough units worth taking in your Codex to fill 6 different forces?

Either everyone has the same units that they always do, in which case the best armies spam their best units like they would do anyway, or you handicap the bad armies who have to actually think about what they put in their army and can't reliably field something good in every slot.

Yeah, there’s definitely some wonkiness to be sorted out. I’d probably make it so the 3000 point list has to be legal in terms of detachments and rule of 3 (or 4 at that level?), but the smaller ones don’t. So something like Custodes could have one or two units per strike force without caring about if each of those sub forces is a legal army. Certainly would only be a novel event though.

Reminds me of another interesting event I heard about: mirror match tournament. Each player brings a marine list (or I guess other armies could work) and are told the datasheets they MUST bring. But they are free to vary equipment and subfaction choice etc within that restriction. So you know exactly what your opponent will have, and have to think about how best to counter it while knowing they will be doing the same for you.

[Artanis]

All this sounds kinda like WarmaHordes tournaments, where the players bring two lists, and decide which one to use based on what their opponents' two lists are.