Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Forum Explorer]

Well, that's what I'm talking about, and that's what I was getting at earlier.

In previous editions, Kabal units have always appeared as 'Craftworlds with Spikes', and, I don't know if you know this, but in every single edition Eldar/Craftworlds have been very, very strong. Whereas 'Craftworlds with Spikes', is the same thing you already have, except worse. Dark Eldar, and specifically Kabal units, have had a bad reputation for being terrible for as long as I can remember, and I literally don't remember a time when that wasn't the case. However, due to marketing and zeitgeist, I have a feeling that whenever people have thought about Dark Eldar, they've thought about Kabalite Warriors in paper boats, which, again, as far as I can remember, has been the worst way to play Dark Eldar, because Kabalite Warriors have never been good, except as a hard counter to NidZilla back in what, 3rd Ed.? However, Dark Eldar got their 3.5 Revision, and Tyranids 4th BALEETED NidZilla from existance. So, yeah. Warriors have just never been required except for an extremely brief window between Tyranids 3rd, and Dark Eldar 3.5?

Playing 'Craftworlds with Spikes' has never appealed to me, and neither has Venom spam.

What's appealed to me has been Wyches and Hamonculi.
Unfortunately, 5th Ed. dropped Dark Eldar on their heads, and the Faction just didn't recover until it was renamed Drukhari in late(ish) 8th Ed. But, 8th Ed. also gave rise to:
a) Death Guard, an extremely noob- and newb-friendly Faction, and
b) Harlequins were really good - and then they were really terrible.

In late(ish) 8th., you had a choice with Drukhari. You could play bad Death Guard, you could play bad Harlequins, or you could play second-fiddle to the Craftworld Detachment that was actually the core of your army, and the Drukhari were just...There.

Finally giving you a really, really, really ****ty choice:
- Grotesques cost a ****-ton, each, and you need at least 10.
- Talos/Cronus Engines cost a ****-ton, each, and you want loads of 'em. (Like Bloat Drones, but not as good!)
- Let's see what it takes to make a decent Beastmaster unit...Oh. Nevermind. It's like building an AdMech Robot list, except you buy the Robots individually!

In order to make Drukhari good, you had to spend a lot of money. Except, as you may have guessed, 'good Drukhari', doesn't actually mean anything, 'cause you're still not even close to the clocked Space Marine-meta (by which I mean Space Marines, Craftworlds, T'au and Daemons), and you don't hold a candle at all to the non-clocked horde meta. Is there only Venom spam (...yes)?

But here, at the beginning of 9th where nothing looks like it's changing, Venom-spam is definitely on the way out, and you're asking yourself, why didn't you spent the last two years buying up Grotesques and Talos/Cronus Engines before GW priced hiked them?

But that still leaves the problem of Drukhari trying to be three armies at once, and not as good as any single army that already exists:
Craftworlds with Spikes
Harlequins with Spikes
Death Guard with...Well, umm...Less tentacles and warts?

Two out of those three are on top of the meta right now.

I mostly disagree with your analysis here. Dark Eldar work as Dark Eldar when gunboat spam is allowed which feels pretty different from every other faction. It was Venoms in 8th. Currently Dark Eldar struggle because of bring it down, so they almost start with a 15 point deficit. Well that and Eradicators being OP. Well that and they got hammered in the points update. But in a meta where Gravis Armor is a thing, Dark Eldar Poison gets a lot of value and Blaster spam is always really good.

Though when it comes to sitting on objectives, I expect that you need Wracks. And Wytch Cult units really got hammered by Space Marines going up to 2 wounds.

Honestly.... I'm kind of curious, how a tournament would go if you could say.... take a 3000 point 'army' but only field 1500-2000 points of it in any given game. Giving you the ability to swap out or tailor to a degree.

The big problem with that is the amount of time it will take. Swapping out units isn't always equivalent so it takes time to calculate how much each is worth and what can be swapped out for what.

[Renegade Paladin]

Honestly.... I'm kind of curious, how a tournament would go if you could say.... take a 3000 point 'army' but only field 1500-2000 points of it in any given game. Giving you the ability to swap out or tailor to a degree.

As others have stated, too much time. Maybe some sort of sideboard system where like three quarters or something of the list stays the same and you can swap out the other 500 (or fewer) points could work, as long as you had defined sideboards of roughly equivalent points so you could do the swap quick rather than going unit by unit.

[Razgriez]

As others have stated, too much time. Maybe some sort of sideboard system where like three quarters or something of the list stays the same and you can swap out the other 500 (or fewer) points could work, as long as you had defined sideboards of roughly equivalent points so you could do the swap quick rather than going unit by unit.

For Marines, a "Sideboard" list would be pretty easy: Tailoring your list for Guard/Marine/Terminator/Horde/Vehicle heavy armies or equivalents. And most of the time, this boils down probably to swapping out the Bolt Rifles for Auto/Stalker Bolters (or the equivalent for other units), and whether you're going with Onslaught GCs/Heavy Bolter or Multi-Meltas Invaders/Land Speeders/Attack Bikes, and Eliminators vs Eradicators. All other considerations would simply be determining how your opponent plays against Marines.

Update on the Rebuild project, in addition to the secondhand Shadowspear Phobos Marines, I also got 10 Bolt Rifle Intercessors along with them. So as squads of 5, that should round out my Troops nicely with a total of four squads (with only really wanting to consider Heavy Intercessors if I'm not using Tacticals for a "pocket Heavy/Special weapon" and want Troops with a bit more staying power)

Bladeguard Veterans, Eradicators, Invaders, Redempter/'Vicky Dreadnought/Warsuits are on my high priority list, as is a Primaris Apothecary.

[Cheesegear]

Honestly.... I'm kind of curious, how a tournament would go if you could say.... take a 3000 point 'army' but only field 1500-2000 points of it in any given game. Giving you the ability to swap out or tailor to a degree.

It works with Power Rating, less well with Points.
Secondly, it doesn't change anything.

The Factions with the tools to perform, are still better than the Factions that don't have the tools they need to perform. A PR 5 unit with options, will almost definitely be better or more usable, than a PR 5 unit without options.

A bad Faction is a bad Faction. You can't fix it by swapping in units. Because you're also allowing your opponent to tailor to you at the same time. Giving a net neutral. So whoever started in the better position in the first place, is still in a better position.

All this sounds kinda like WarmaHordes tournaments, where the players bring two lists, and decide which one to use based on what their opponents' two lists are.

Depending on how different each list is, can very quickly turn into 'Pay to Win'.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm reading through the Forge World Legends document right now, and it just kind of rubs it in that they buffed the Destroyer tank hunter's heavy laser destroyer at the same time they effectively removed it from play. (They nerfed its Wounds down to 10, though, even though it's on the Russ chassis; at least it's still T8.) S12, AP-4, and D3+3 damage now.

Also from the look of the Stormhammer they haven't improved the Baneblade chassis' survivability any (the reason I was actually looking). They also made autocannon Chimeras Krieg only, just in time for the Wolverine APC (which is totally an autocannon Chimera) that was a stretch goal for the second Rampart Kickstarter to get here.

[Cheesegear]

I'm reading through the Forge World Legends document right now, and it just kind of rubs it in that they buffed the Destroyer tank hunter's heavy laser destroyer at the same time they effectively removed it from play.

That's...Actually amazing.

"See this? Now this is what it should've been all along! ...Also, you can't really use it unless your opponent lets you. Knowing how good it is now, why would they?"

[Wraith]

New Battleforce boxes' price has been tentatively confirmed: ~£130 GBP, which works out at approximately ~€150 EUR / ~$170 USD / ~$230 AUS.

Less than I was expecting, more than I had hoped for. About 'okay' assuming you can actually buy one from GW and not get immediately scalped. Again.

[LeSwordfish]

New Battleforce boxes' price has been tentatively confirmed: ~£130 GBP, which works out at approximately ~€150 EUR / ~$170 USD / ~$230 AUS.

Less than I was expecting, more than I had hoped for. About 'okay' assuming you can actually buy one from GW and not get immediately scalped. Again.

For reference, each one is approximately 33% off RRP from GW, or 45% off RRP from a third party seller that does a 25% discount.

[LansXero]

New Battleforce boxes' price has been tentatively confirmed: ~£130 GBP, which works out at approximately ~€150 EUR / ~$170 USD / ~$230 AUS.

Less than I was expecting, more than I had hoped for. About 'okay' assuming you can actually buy one from GW and not get immediately scalped. Again.

Yeah, about that... (prices in US$ in case there is some confusion)


COMBAT PATROL: BLOOD ANGELS $140.00
BLOOD ANGELS DICE SET $35.00
SPACE MARINES: ASSAULT INTERCESSORS $60.00
SPACE MARINES GLADIATOR $80.00
SPACE MARINES: INTERDICTION FORCE $200.00
CHAOS SPACE MARINES: DECIMATION WARBAND $200.00
ASTRA MILITARUM: BASTION PLATOON $200.00
TYRANIDS BROOD SWARM $210.00
NECRONS ERADICATION LEGION $210.00
T'AU EMPIRE STARPULSE CADRE $210.00

For reference, each one is approximately 33% off RRP from GW, or 45% off RRP from a third party seller that does a 25% discount.

According to GW:

Necrons Edradication Legion

27 figure multi-part plastic box set containing: • 1 Technomancer, 1 Canoptek Spyder, 1 Night Scythe / Doom Scythe, 1 Triarch Stalker, 3 Canoptek Scarab Swarms, 10 Necron Warriors, 5 Immortals / Deathmarks, 5 Triarch Praetorians / Lychguard
Approx 59% added value

Tyranid Brood Swarm - 52%
Starpulse Cadre - 50%
Decimator Warband - 50%
Bastion Platoon - 50%
Interdiction Force - 54%

[Destro_Yersul]

What kind of dollar?

[LansXero]

What kind of dollar?

US American Dollaridoos.

[Destro_Yersul]

Hm. Tzeentch box is probably worth it then, for anyone who doesn't have a Lord of Change already.

[LeSwordfish]

According to GW:

Necrons Edradication Legion

27 figure multi-part plastic box set containing: • 1 Technomancer, 1 Canoptek Spyder, 1 Night Scythe / Doom Scythe, 1 Triarch Stalker, 3 Canoptek Scarab Swarms, 10 Necron Warriors, 5 Immortals / Deathmarks, 5 Triarch Praetorians / Lychguard
Approx 59% added value

Tyranid Brood Swarm - 52%
Starpulse Cadre - 50%
Decimator Warband - 50%
Bastion Platoon - 50%
Interdiction Force - 54%

We're coming at the same numbers from a different direction (and getting slightly different results because of the currency) - the RRP for the contents is around £180 as compared to the approximately £120 price. £120 is 66% of £180, £180 is 150% of £120

Hm. Tzeentch box is probably worth it then, for anyone who doesn't have a Lord of Change already.

That particular one is especially crazy good value, as is the necron one.

[Destro_Yersul]

By the Emperor. I am going to need to strongly resist buying the Necron and Tzeentch ones, then. I don't have the money, or the time to paint all of that. But... I want it.

[LansXero]

Ah, wasnt trying to correct you, just adding the published details from GW's file. Still, 200$ is a steep ask, regardless of 'value' since the price hike earlier this year on individual sets is still being digested. If you add 'value' in upgrade packs and whatnot, its even worse as at least here nobody cares about them and orders their bits and decorations from FW Covid or ebay / etsy / aliexpress.

[Dragonus45]

I wandered past a spare Indomitus box at a FLGS and wound up impulse buying it to split with someone for the necron half. I'm wondering what I might need to do next to fill it out, how good a deal is this necron box set in "stuff I might actually use" terms.

[Squark]

I wandered past a spare Indomitus box at a FLGS and wound up impulse buying it to split with someone for the necron half. I'm wondering what I might need to do next to fill it out, how good a deal is this necron box set in "stuff I might actually use" terms.

Soprekh Destroyers and Soprekh Lords are good. Scarabs are still cost effective filler, and the new models are much less fragile than the ones in the old warriors box. You probably know how you feel about warriors already (and know whether you need more), but Gauss Reapers were fixed in the codex so they're assault 2 12" instead of rapid fire 1 14", giving them a niche as reserves/transport units. Cryptothralls are also useful for keeping Crypteks safe from snipers.

The Canoptek Reanimator is bad, the new Overlord loadout is subpar compared to a Warscythe or Voidscythe, Plasmancers are ~eh, and the Royal Warden was obsoleted by Command Protocols.

[Dragonus45]

Soprekh Destroyers and Soprekh Lords are good. Scarabs are still cost effective filler, and the new models are much less fragile than the ones in the old warriors box. You probably know how you feel about warriors already (and know whether you need more), but Gauss Reapers were fixed in the codex so they're assault 2 12" instead of rapid fire 1 14", giving them a niche as reserves/transport units. Cryptothralls are also useful for keeping Crypteks safe from snipers.

The Canoptek Reanimator is bad, the new Overlord loadout is subpar compared to a Warscythe or Voidscythe, Plasmancers are ~eh, and the Royal Warden was obsoleted by Command Protocols.

There are soprekhs in these new boxes? I'm confused now.

[Wraith]

Yeah, about that...

I'm old and miserly, leave me alone!

[LansXero]

I'm old and miserly, leave me alone!

haha, less that, more 'if it was already much at 170, imagine learning that its actually 210' :v.

[Keraunograf]

Okay. The Necron half of Indomitus includes

-Overlord
-Royal Warden
-20x Warriors
-6x Scarabs
-3x Soprekh Destroyers +Anthrocyte (The tripod ones)

These models were reused for the new starter sets, and the non-characters also got released as their own boxes.

Then there's the (for-now) exclusives

-Soprekh Lord
-Plasmancer
-2x Cryptothralls
-Canoptek Reanimator

I think Dragonus is asking how useful the Necron Eradication Boxy Thingy is as a supplement to the Necron half of Indomitus, not... Not sure what you're answering, TBH.

[Squark]

I think Dragonus is asking how useful the Necron Eradication Boxy Thingy is as a supplement to the Necron half of Indomitus, not... Not sure what you're answering, TBH.

Ah. I see where I got confused now. Dragonus's first post name dropped Indomitus, and only referred to the Christmas box as "this box set." My mistake.


Okay, so you have Indomitus, and are looking at the Christmas box. The christmas box has...

-Technomancer with Canoptek Cloak (Decent. Technomancers are a good choice for your 2nd HQ in a battalion)
-10 Warriors +3 Scarabs (You already have 2 of this sprue from Indomitus. If you like warrior blobs, great. If not... well, use them as painting practice or something)
-5 Immortals or Deathmarks (Gauss Immortals are the way to go unless you really want snipers)
-5 Triarch Praetorians or Lychguard (Praetorians with rods of the covenant are great)
-Triarch Stalker (Decent. I reccomend the newly buffed Heat Ray, but the Gauss Cannons work too)
-Canoptek Spyder (Good in multiples. This gets you started at least. I'm not sure about whether to give them wargear or not, though)
-Night/Doom Scythe (The Death Ray/Portal piece fits in its place without any glue, so you can run whichever. Flyers are in a weird place as I understand, but I think these have potential)

Overall, most of the box set is decent-good, but it's a grab bag of units instead of focusing on a single theme/strategy.

[Cheesegear]

Let's Read with Cheesegear... Again!

Blood Angels

• When the Assault Doctrine is active, +1A when Charge or are Charged...Turn 3 onwards. Who is making Charges on Turn 3? Why are your Blood Angels so slow? What is wrong with you. Go home Blood Angels.
• Models with the Black Rage gain another +1A when Charge or are Charged. Irrespective of Assault Doctrine. Ignore Wounds (6+), and can't perform Actions. Super-fast INFANTRY that can't contribute to Deploy Scramblers? ...Co- cool? I think? Umm...I wonder if MSU Deploy Scramblers is a big part of the meta...IT IS!? OH NO-OOO...So it's nice of Blood Angels to politely remove an option that's completely open to them. I have a feeling that Death Company might be terrible, and 9th Ed. will be another edition where it's Sanguinary Guard's turn to take main stage. Death Company can have 10th.
• Red Rampage does what Flesh Tearers do, but only Turn 3 onwards because whoever did WarCom's article has no clue what's good - or not - in the Blood Angels' Supplement...
• ...I'd like to double down, as whomever wrote WarCom's article tells us that a good Warlord Trait is giving your Warlord a piece of Special-Issue Wargear...Which normally should only cost a single CP, and not blow your entire Warlord Trait...Oh ****. Will Blood Angels be DoA?
• We get told that Blood Angels will have to 'share' their Supplement with Flesh Tearers. As an Imperial Fist player, who has flashbacks every time I look at my supplement as my eyes glaze over because a portion of my own Supplement is banned to me, even though I'm painting my Marines exactly like the front cover...This is an awful idea.
• Relic gives all Blood Angels within 6" re-roll to Charge. Doesn't even look ANCIENT only. Get hyped for Blood Angels Drop Pods. Because fluff is dead.
• WarCom tells you about Magna-Grapples, which work great on VEHICLES...Then immediately shows us an image of a Furioso Dreadnought fighting a MONSTER, something that Magna-Grapples don't work against...Do we even know what continuity is?

The intent of WarCom is to make you consume and buy product. Mission failed! We'll get 'em next time.

How to sell Blood Angels:

• Here's how to Charge on Turn 1, dummy! AAAAAAAAGH.
• Holy ****. *Explosion* Give all your Infantry models Ignore Wounds using this Ancient so you can hold Objectives!
• POWER THIRST!!! POWER LIFTING. POWER RUNNING. POWER CHARGING.
• Charge on Turn 1 too hard and too gimmicky? FINE. CHARGE ON TURN 2. HERE WE GO.
• Here's a Stratagem that lets Death Company activate THREE TIMES in the Fight phase. You'll be Melee'ing as hard as World Eaters. WORLD EATERS.
• Mephiston. Holy ****. He's a Librarian. But he can fight harder than a Chapter Master when his Powers go off. And they will. 'Cause he's a Chief Librarian and sells his own soul for breakfast so hard that even other Blood Angels are afraid of him. Did you escape the Red Thirst? Didn't think so. Not even Cawl knows how to get rid of it. Mephiston isn't is a Marty Stu 'cause we said he isn't. Also we post-hoc'd explicitly why he isn't a Marty Stu and it all works. Stormwind Fallacy is called a fallacy for a reason.
• Is your blood pumping yet!? Here's a guide to converting Rubicon'd Gabriel Seth. SPACE AUSTRALIA. Let's go! The grimdark real one. Not the meme Catachan one. Instead of locking off Relics like we did in the Imperial Fists' Supplement, what we actually did was add in even more Special Issue Wargear for Blood Angels Successors. This means that there's even more stuff for Blood Angel Successors (because they're all best friends with each other, that's canon...Devastation of Baal, ever read it? No. GREAT. Here's a link. Buy it to see what's up with the Blood Angels in the Indomitus era...Gabriel Seth is mad.). But, because it's listed as Special Issue Wargear, actual Blood Angel enthusiasts don't get mad, 'cause it's their name and their colours, on the front cover, and they still have access to everything in the book...Except Gabriel Seth. But at this point he's grandfathered in so hard that it's kind of hard to get rid of him, especially since we've kind of tied him intimately to Marty Stu's Dante's shadow...We didn't mean to do that. But we definitely did.
• ...Here's ANOTHER way to Charge on Turn 1...Out of a Drop Pod!
• ...Also, post-Turn 3, Blood Angels can do a thing with Assault Doctrine up. But you're not mad at this because it isn't the first thing you read. Instead, you read all that other cool stuff, first, and now you're thinking that a Turn 3+ ability is just icing on the cake for help in the late game...Instead of the broken foundation that the cake is made of, because the meta currently runs hard at Turns 1 and 2, and 'Turn 3 is too late'.

What do I know, though? I'm just some guy who doesn't even have a YouTube channel or positive-reviews-only blog.

[Wraith]

The intent of WarCom is to make you consume and buy product. Mission failed! We'll get 'em next time.

Irrelevant. It buys the Space Marines or it gets the hose again.

[Squark]

My own hot take on the BA preview.


-Savage Echoes: [salty SW player on] Look at Savage Echoes. Now look at Savage Fury. This shouldn't even require a calculator. *sigh*[/salty SW player off]Assault Doctorine-based abilities come on too late. However, it's possible that GW copied from the Space Wolves codex and has a couple of ways to put your most important units into Assault Doctorine early.

-Black Rage: Cute. But I've never understood why Death Company share a slot with Sanguinary Guard (And now Bladeguard Vets), so I don't know see many Death Company showing up.

-Red Rampage: I've seen this before... ... This is a near copy-paste from the Space Wolves codex. Except they pay 2 CPs for it. Even discounted, this is still win-more.

-Artisan of War: Your Warlord gets a 2+/5++, +1 damage to their favorite weapon, or 5+ ignore wounds. That's not the worst warlord trait ever... if the SE wargear is free. Which it isn't by RAW - It just gives your warlord a second slot for mediocre relics that could be good relics on a different character.

-Icon of the Angel: Who needs Chapter Champions? Something actually, unequivocally good in this preview.

Magna-grapple: The art-fail is strong with this one.

[Cheesegear]

Savage Echoes: [salty SW player on] Look at Savage Echoes. Now look at Savage Fury. This shouldn't even require a calculator. *sigh*[/salty SW player off]Assault Doctorine-based abilities come on too late. However, it's possible that GW copied from the Space Wolves codex and has a couple of ways to put your most important units into Assault Doctorine early.

Check the RAW.
"While the Assault Doctrine is active for your army..."

A Stratagem that gives one unit the Assault Doctrine (e.g; Bestial Nature), doesn't apply army-wide, and thus doesn't do what you think it does.

Artisan of War: Your Warlord gets a 2+/5++, +1 damage to their favorite weapon, or 5+ ignore wounds. That's not the worst warlord trait ever...

There's a difference between "It's not bad.", and "It doesn't matter what it is, if it's not as good [x]."
I can't decide if it's good or bad. But I do know that "Give your Warlord a Special-Issue Wargear." as a Warlord Trait isn't a good use of your Warlord Trait.

[Squark]

Check the RAW.
"While the Assault Doctrine is active for your army..."

A Stratagem that gives one unit the Assault Doctrine (e.g; Bestial Nature), doesn't apply army-wide, and thus doesn't do what you think it does.

... Well. I appear to be out of board-safe expletives that convey my frustration.

Still ticked about Savage Fury, though.

There's a difference between "It's not bad.", and "It doesn't matter what it is, if it's not as good [x]."
I can't decide if it's good or bad. But I do know that "Give your Warlord a Special-Issue Wargear." as a Warlord Trait isn't a good use of your Warlord Trait.

I guess I evaluated the options, if they were free (Which they don't seem to be*, so this discussion is academic), and compared them to the Space Wolves and Vanilla Space Marine Warlord traits, and thought it would be a b-tier trait if you don't need to pay Command Points on top of using your warlord trait. Would it be Rites of War/Wise Orator/Steadfast Example/Martial Exemplar tier/Selfless Healer/Master of the Codex tier? ... Wait.

... I've been failing to consider the Chapter Command Warlord traits. That does push this down the priority list considerably


*Until the FAQ hits, I'm open to the possibility that the Sergeant-Relic Strategems and this trait are supposed to not consume relic slots because that's the only way they'd be worthwhile.

[Cheesegear]

Until the FAQ hits, I'm open to the possibility that the Sergeant-Relic Strategems and this trait are supposed to not consume relic slots because that's the only way they'd be worthwhile.

No-one I know plays that they do, and certainly army lists that I've read from tournaments, don't.

My understanding of it is "Pay a CP to give a Sergeant a piece of SIW." Certainly seems to make sense.

If your reading "Pay a CP, to take your existing Relic slot, and give it to someone else, but then use that slot for not-even-a-Relic." would be a horrific nerf and make the like-Stratagems utter garbage, and now I can see why you'd rate giving your Warlord an extra SIW. Fair enough.

[Squark]

No-one I know plays that they do, and certainly army lists that I've read from tournaments, don't.

My understanding of it is "Pay a CP to give a Sergeant a piece of SIW." Certainly seems to make sense.

If your reading "Pay a CP, to take your existing Relic slot, and give it to someone else, but then use that slot for not-even-a-Relic." would be a horrific nerf and make the like-Stratagems utter garbage, and now I can see why you'd rate giving your Warlord an extra SIW. Fair enough.

EDIT: Okay, I misinterpreted your pre-edited post. So, as best as I can tell (And this seems to be the interpretation I've seen on the other boards I post on), the strategems and this warlord trait only say that you can give a sergeant a piece of SIW as an exception to how relics usually work. So as best as I can tell, it just makes a Sergeant an eligible choice for one of your relics if you make it one of the listed (sub-par) relics. Which is hot garbage, and why I suspect this is a result of bad writing, and not RAI.

As for Artisan of War being good/bad... If the SIW is given to you simply for taking the warlord trait, a 5+++ feels reasonable compared to a 6+++ and some minor befits, and +1 Damage isn't bad compared to +1 Attack and something else. Math hammer decides which is better, of course. As I said above, though, I neglected to consider how many of the Chapter Command warlord traits are much better than the examples I listed above.

[LansXero]

Artisan of War used to be flat +1D to weapons. Still got picked many times because smash captain gotta smash.

As for the Drukhari analysis, so much wrong all piled up. The staple in Eldar soup were Ravagers for a reason, between rr1s to wound and access to Agents it pulled so much work, has nothing to do with being discount Craftworlds, we wish our Fire Prisms were that efficient. Kabals were what most people played because having ride-by shooting with dark lances and blasters was super useful; grotesques likely only work in the ITC potshot meta.