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2020-11-22, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
I mostly disagree with your analysis here. Dark Eldar work as Dark Eldar when gunboat spam is allowed which feels pretty different from every other faction. It was Venoms in 8th. Currently Dark Eldar struggle because of bring it down, so they almost start with a 15 point deficit. Well that and Eradicators being OP. Well that and they got hammered in the points update. But in a meta where Gravis Armor is a thing, Dark Eldar Poison gets a lot of value and Blaster spam is always really good.
Though when it comes to sitting on objectives, I expect that you need Wracks. And Wytch Cult units really got hammered by Space Marines going up to 2 wounds.
The big problem with that is the amount of time it will take. Swapping out units isn't always equivalent so it takes time to calculate how much each is worth and what can be swapped out for what.Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2020-11-22 at 01:39 PM.
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2020-11-22, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
As others have stated, too much time. Maybe some sort of sideboard system where like three quarters or something of the list stays the same and you can swap out the other 500 (or fewer) points could work, as long as you had defined sideboards of roughly equivalent points so you could do the swap quick rather than going unit by unit.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2020-11-22, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
For Marines, a "Sideboard" list would be pretty easy: Tailoring your list for Guard/Marine/Terminator/Horde/Vehicle heavy armies or equivalents. And most of the time, this boils down probably to swapping out the Bolt Rifles for Auto/Stalker Bolters (or the equivalent for other units), and whether you're going with Onslaught GCs/Heavy Bolter or Multi-Meltas Invaders/Land Speeders/Attack Bikes, and Eliminators vs Eradicators. All other considerations would simply be determining how your opponent plays against Marines.
Update on the Rebuild project, in addition to the secondhand Shadowspear Phobos Marines, I also got 10 Bolt Rifle Intercessors along with them. So as squads of 5, that should round out my Troops nicely with a total of four squads (with only really wanting to consider Heavy Intercessors if I'm not using Tacticals for a "pocket Heavy/Special weapon" and want Troops with a bit more staying power)
Bladeguard Veterans, Eradicators, Invaders, Redempter/'Vicky Dreadnought/Warsuits are on my high priority list, as is a Primaris Apothecary.Last edited by Razgriez; 2020-11-22 at 04:39 PM.
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2020-11-22, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
It works with Power Rating, less well with Points.
Secondly, it doesn't change anything.
The Factions with the tools to perform, are still better than the Factions that don't have the tools they need to perform. A PR 5 unit with options, will almost definitely be better or more usable, than a PR 5 unit without options.
A bad Faction is a bad Faction. You can't fix it by swapping in units. Because you're also allowing your opponent to tailor to you at the same time. Giving a net neutral. So whoever started in the better position in the first place, is still in a better position.
Depending on how different each list is, can very quickly turn into 'Pay to Win'.
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2020-11-22, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
I'm reading through the Forge World Legends document right now, and it just kind of rubs it in that they buffed the Destroyer tank hunter's heavy laser destroyer at the same time they effectively removed it from play. (They nerfed its Wounds down to 10, though, even though it's on the Russ chassis; at least it's still T8.) S12, AP-4, and D3+3 damage now.
Also from the look of the Stormhammer they haven't improved the Baneblade chassis' survivability any (the reason I was actually looking). They also made autocannon Chimeras Krieg only, just in time for the Wolverine APC (which is totally an autocannon Chimera) that was a stretch goal for the second Rampart Kickstarter to get here."Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2020-11-23, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
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2020-11-23, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
New Battleforce boxes' price has been tentatively confirmed: ~£130 GBP, which works out at approximately ~€150 EUR / ~$170 USD / ~$230 AUS.
Less than I was expecting, more than I had hoped for. About 'okay' assuming you can actually buy one from GW and not get immediately scalped. Again.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2020-11-23, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-23, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
Yeah, about that... (prices in US$ in case there is some confusion)
COMBAT PATROL: BLOOD ANGELS $140.00
BLOOD ANGELS DICE SET $35.00
SPACE MARINES: ASSAULT INTERCESSORS $60.00
SPACE MARINES GLADIATOR $80.00
SPACE MARINES: INTERDICTION FORCE $200.00
CHAOS SPACE MARINES: DECIMATION WARBAND $200.00
ASTRA MILITARUM: BASTION PLATOON $200.00
TYRANIDS BROOD SWARM $210.00
NECRONS ERADICATION LEGION $210.00
T'AU EMPIRE STARPULSE CADRE $210.00
For reference, each one is approximately 33% off RRP from GW, or 45% off RRP from a third party seller that does a 25% discount.
Necrons Edradication Legion
27 figure multi-part plastic box set containing: • 1 Technomancer, 1 Canoptek Spyder, 1 Night Scythe / Doom Scythe, 1 Triarch Stalker, 3 Canoptek Scarab Swarms, 10 Necron Warriors, 5 Immortals / Deathmarks, 5 Triarch Praetorians / Lychguard
Approx 59% added value
Tyranid Brood Swarm - 52%
Starpulse Cadre - 50%
Decimator Warband - 50%
Bastion Platoon - 50%
Interdiction Force - 54%Last edited by LansXero; 2020-11-23 at 09:27 AM.
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2020-11-23, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
What kind of dollar?
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2020-11-23, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-23, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
Hm. Tzeentch box is probably worth it then, for anyone who doesn't have a Lord of Change already.
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2020-11-23, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
We're coming at the same numbers from a different direction (and getting slightly different results because of the currency) - the RRP for the contents is around £180 as compared to the approximately £120 price. £120 is 66% of £180, £180 is 150% of £120
That particular one is especially crazy good value, as is the necron one.
Last edited by LeSwordfish; 2020-11-23 at 09:37 AM.
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2020-11-23, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
By the Emperor. I am going to need to strongly resist buying the Necron and Tzeentch ones, then. I don't have the money, or the time to paint all of that. But... I want it.
I used to do LP's. Currently archived here:
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2020-11-23, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
Ah, wasnt trying to correct you, just adding the published details from GW's file. Still, 200$ is a steep ask, regardless of 'value' since the price hike earlier this year on individual sets is still being digested. If you add 'value' in upgrade packs and whatnot, its even worse as at least here nobody cares about them and orders their bits and decorations from FW Covid or ebay / etsy / aliexpress.
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2020-11-23, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
I wandered past a spare Indomitus box at a FLGS and wound up impulse buying it to split with someone for the necron half. I'm wondering what I might need to do next to fill it out, how good a deal is this necron box set in "stuff I might actually use" terms.
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If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.
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2020-11-23, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
Soprekh Destroyers and Soprekh Lords are good. Scarabs are still cost effective filler, and the new models are much less fragile than the ones in the old warriors box. You probably know how you feel about warriors already (and know whether you need more), but Gauss Reapers were fixed in the codex so they're assault 2 12" instead of rapid fire 1 14", giving them a niche as reserves/transport units. Cryptothralls are also useful for keeping Crypteks safe from snipers.
The Canoptek Reanimator is bad, the new Overlord loadout is subpar compared to a Warscythe or Voidscythe, Plasmancers are ~eh, and the Royal Warden was obsoleted by Command Protocols.Last edited by Squark; 2020-11-23 at 10:03 AM.
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2020-11-23, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-23, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
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RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
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Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2020-11-23, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-24, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-24, 03:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
Ah. I see where I got confused now. Dragonus's first post name dropped Indomitus, and only referred to the Christmas box as "this box set." My mistake.
Okay, so you have Indomitus, and are looking at the Christmas box. The christmas box has...
-Technomancer with Canoptek Cloak (Decent. Technomancers are a good choice for your 2nd HQ in a battalion)
-10 Warriors +3 Scarabs (You already have 2 of this sprue from Indomitus. If you like warrior blobs, great. If not... well, use them as painting practice or something)
-5 Immortals or Deathmarks (Gauss Immortals are the way to go unless you really want snipers)
-5 Triarch Praetorians or Lychguard (Praetorians with rods of the covenant are great)
-Triarch Stalker (Decent. I reccomend the newly buffed Heat Ray, but the Gauss Cannons work too)
-Canoptek Spyder (Good in multiples. This gets you started at least. I'm not sure about whether to give them wargear or not, though)
-Night/Doom Scythe (The Death Ray/Portal piece fits in its place without any glue, so you can run whichever. Flyers are in a weird place as I understand, but I think these have potential)
Overall, most of the box set is decent-good, but it's a grab bag of units instead of focusing on a single theme/strategy.Last edited by Squark; 2020-11-24 at 03:02 AM.
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2020-11-24, 04:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
Let's Read with Cheesegear... Again!
Blood Angels
- When the Assault Doctrine is active, +1A when Charge or are Charged...Turn 3 onwards. Who is making Charges on Turn 3? Why are your Blood Angels so slow? What is wrong with you. Go home Blood Angels.
- Models with the Black Rage gain another +1A when Charge or are Charged. Irrespective of Assault Doctrine. Ignore Wounds (6+), and can't perform Actions. Super-fast INFANTRY that can't contribute to Deploy Scramblers? ...Co- cool? I think? Umm...I wonder if MSU Deploy Scramblers is a big part of the meta...IT IS!? OH NO-OOO...So it's nice of Blood Angels to politely remove an option that's completely open to them. I have a feeling that Death Company might be terrible, and 9th Ed. will be another edition where it's Sanguinary Guard's turn to take main stage. Death Company can have 10th.
- Red Rampage does what Flesh Tearers do, but only Turn 3 onwards because whoever did WarCom's article has no clue what's good - or not - in the Blood Angels' Supplement...
- ...I'd like to double down, as whomever wrote WarCom's article tells us that a good Warlord Trait is giving your Warlord a piece of Special-Issue Wargear...Which normally should only cost a single CP, and not blow your entire Warlord Trait...Oh ****. Will Blood Angels be DoA?
- We get told that Blood Angels will have to 'share' their Supplement with Flesh Tearers. As an Imperial Fist player, who has flashbacks every time I look at my supplement as my eyes glaze over because a portion of my own Supplement is banned to me, even though I'm painting my Marines exactly like the front cover...This is an awful idea.
- Relic gives all Blood Angels within 6" re-roll to Charge. Doesn't even look ANCIENT only. Get hyped for Blood Angels Drop Pods. Because fluff is dead.
- WarCom tells you about Magna-Grapples, which work great on VEHICLES...Then immediately shows us an image of a Furioso Dreadnought fighting a MONSTER, something that Magna-Grapples don't work against...Do we even know what continuity is?
The intent of WarCom is to make you consume and buy product. Mission failed! We'll get 'em next time.
How to sell Blood Angels:
- Here's how to Charge on Turn 1, dummy! AAAAAAAAGH.
- Holy ****. *Explosion* Give all your Infantry models Ignore Wounds using this Ancient so you can hold Objectives!
- POWER THIRST!!! POWER LIFTING. POWER RUNNING. POWER CHARGING.
- Charge on Turn 1 too hard and too gimmicky? FINE. CHARGE ON TURN 2. HERE WE GO.
- Here's a Stratagem that lets Death Company activate THREE TIMES in the Fight phase. You'll be Melee'ing as hard as World Eaters. WORLD EATERS.
- Mephiston. Holy ****. He's a Librarian. But he can fight harder than a Chapter Master when his Powers go off. And they will. 'Cause he's a Chief Librarian and sells his own soul for breakfast so hard that even other Blood Angels are afraid of him. Did you escape the Red Thirst? Didn't think so. Not even Cawl knows how to get rid of it. Mephiston isn't is a Marty Stu 'cause we said he isn't. Also we post-hoc'd explicitly why he isn't a Marty Stu and it all works. Stormwind Fallacy is called a fallacy for a reason.
- Is your blood pumping yet!? Here's a guide to converting Rubicon'd Gabriel Seth. SPACE AUSTRALIA. Let's go! The grimdark real one. Not the meme Catachan one. Instead of locking off Relics like we did in the Imperial Fists' Supplement, what we actually did was add in even more Special Issue Wargear for Blood Angels Successors. This means that there's even more stuff for Blood Angel Successors (because they're all best friends with each other, that's canon...Devastation of Baal, ever read it? No. GREAT. Here's a link. Buy it to see what's up with the Blood Angels in the Indomitus era...Gabriel Seth is mad.). But, because it's listed as Special Issue Wargear, actual Blood Angel enthusiasts don't get mad, 'cause it's their name and their colours, on the front cover, and they still have access to everything in the book...Except Gabriel Seth. But at this point he's grandfathered in so hard that it's kind of hard to get rid of him, especially since we've kind of tied him intimately to
Marty Stu'sDante's shadow...We didn't mean to do that. But we definitely did. - ...Here's ANOTHER way to Charge on Turn 1...Out of a Drop Pod!
- ...Also, post-Turn 3, Blood Angels can do a thing with Assault Doctrine up. But you're not mad at this because it isn't the first thing you read. Instead, you read all that other cool stuff, first, and now you're thinking that a Turn 3+ ability is just icing on the cake for help in the late game...Instead of the broken foundation that the cake is made of, because the meta currently runs hard at Turns 1 and 2, and 'Turn 3 is too late'.
What do I know, though? I'm just some guy who doesn't even have a YouTube channel or positive-reviews-only blog.
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2020-11-24, 06:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2020-11-24, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
My own hot take on the BA preview.
-Savage Echoes: [salty SW player on] Look at Savage Echoes. Now look at Savage Fury. This shouldn't even require a calculator. *sigh*[/salty SW player off]Assault Doctorine-based abilities come on too late. However, it's possible that GW copied from the Space Wolves codex and has a couple of ways to put your most important units into Assault Doctorine early.
-Black Rage: Cute. But I've never understood why Death Company share a slot with Sanguinary Guard (And now Bladeguard Vets), so I don't know see many Death Company showing up.
-Red Rampage: I've seen this before... ... This is a near copy-paste from the Space Wolves codex. Except they pay 2 CPs for it. Even discounted, this is still win-more.
-Artisan of War: Your Warlord gets a 2+/5++, +1 damage to their favorite weapon, or 5+ ignore wounds. That's not the worst warlord trait ever... if the SE wargear is free. Which it isn't by RAW - It just gives your warlord a second slot for mediocre relics that could be good relics on a different character.
-Icon of the Angel: Who needs Chapter Champions? Something actually, unequivocally good in this preview.
Magna-grapple: The art-fail is strong with this one.Last edited by Squark; 2020-11-24 at 08:38 AM.
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2020-11-24, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
Check the RAW.
"While the Assault Doctrine is active for your army..."
A Stratagem that gives one unit the Assault Doctrine (e.g; Bestial Nature), doesn't apply army-wide, and thus doesn't do what you think it does.
Artisan of War: Your Warlord gets a 2+/5++, +1 damage to their favorite weapon, or 5+ ignore wounds. That's not the worst warlord trait ever...
I can't decide if it's good or bad. But I do know that "Give your Warlord a Special-Issue Wargear." as a Warlord Trait isn't a good use of your Warlord Trait.
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2020-11-24, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
... Well. I appear to be out of board-safe expletives that convey my frustration.
Still ticked about Savage Fury, though.
There's a difference between "It's not bad.", and "It doesn't matter what it is, if it's not as good [x]."
I can't decide if it's good or bad. But I do know that "Give your Warlord a Special-Issue Wargear." as a Warlord Trait isn't a good use of your Warlord Trait.
... I've been failing to consider the Chapter Command Warlord traits. That does push this down the priority list considerably
*Until the FAQ hits, I'm open to the possibility that the Sergeant-Relic Strategems and this trait are supposed to not consume relic slots because that's the only way they'd be worthwhile.Last edited by Squark; 2020-11-24 at 09:34 AM.
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2020-11-24, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
No-one I know plays that they do, and certainly army lists that I've read from tournaments, don't.
My understanding of it is "Pay a CP to give a Sergeant a piece of SIW." Certainly seems to make sense.
If your reading "Pay a CP, to take your existing Relic slot, and give it to someone else, but then use that slot for not-even-a-Relic." would be a horrific nerf and make the like-Stratagems utter garbage, and now I can see why you'd rate giving your Warlord an extra SIW. Fair enough.
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2020-11-24, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
EDIT: Okay, I misinterpreted your pre-edited post. So, as best as I can tell (And this seems to be the interpretation I've seen on the other boards I post on), the strategems and this warlord trait only say that you can give a sergeant a piece of SIW as an exception to how relics usually work. So as best as I can tell, it just makes a Sergeant an eligible choice for one of your relics if you make it one of the listed (sub-par) relics. Which is hot garbage, and why I suspect this is a result of bad writing, and not RAI.
As for Artisan of War being good/bad... If the SIW is given to you simply for taking the warlord trait, a 5+++ feels reasonable compared to a 6+++ and some minor befits, and +1 Damage isn't bad compared to +1 Attack and something else. Math hammer decides which is better, of course. As I said above, though, I neglected to consider how many of the Chapter Command warlord traits are much better than the examples I listed above.Last edited by Squark; 2020-11-24 at 10:52 AM.
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2020-11-24, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions
Artisan of War used to be flat +1D to weapons. Still got picked many times because smash captain gotta smash.
As for the Drukhari analysis, so much wrong all piled up. The staple in Eldar soup were Ravagers for a reason, between rr1s to wound and access to Agents it pulled so much work, has nothing to do with being discount Craftworlds, we wish our Fire Prisms were that efficient. Kabals were what most people played because having ride-by shooting with dark lances and blasters was super useful; grotesques likely only work in the ITC potshot meta.