Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Blackhawk748]

Irrelevant. It buys the Space Marines or it gets the hose again.

Good thing I'm already in my swimsuit

[Drasius]

So, since Muhreens are good, and we can have games in store again, and I was getting some Marines Errant painted before I lost interest in 8th, and it appears that most of what I like is good, how do I Marines Errant these days?

What I have, roughly and/or would like to get:

Spoiler: HQ

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[HQ]
Have:
Captain, Jump Pack, weapons TBA (currently the Lord Executioner model, will probably convert, could definately be convinced to convert him into a JP Chaplain though and kitbash a JP captain out of a VV box)
Terminator Chaplain (the original, because holy space christ on a jetbike, it's such a nice model and I actually painted it really well)
Limited Terminator Chaplain (the one with the purity seal pasties, NIB, door prize)
Telion (from when Allies was a thing and I needed a HQ)

Want:
Wouldn't mind one of the Primaris Lieutenants, but the ones I like are all event exclusives, so not out of the question, but limited in scope
Looks like you could kitbash a VV into a manlet Lieutenant with a jump pack pretty easily...

Spoiler: Troops

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[Troops]
Have:
10x Tacticals
10x Intercessors (unbuilt)
5x Sniper scouts (they're still listed as troops on GW's website, lol)

Want:
Wouldn't mind a few more Intercessors (of whatever flavour), they look neat.

Spoiler: Elite

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[Elites]
Have:
5x Hammernators (very cool, wouldn't say no to buying more termies)
10x VV's, weapons assorted - most have SS's (will buy as many of these as required, such a cool kit)
5x Sniper Scouts (don't really want to have to paint these unless I have to)

Want:
Aggressors - will be picking up 2 boxes, Other than the gauntlet bolters looking a bit odd, they're cool as
Wouldn't mind a box dread or two. Not keen on Contemptors or Redemptors, REALLY not keen on vickys.
You could probably twist my arm into some sternguard
A banner boy would be a nice test of painting skills

Spoiler: Fast Attack

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[Fast Attack]
Have:
20x Assault Marines, Jump Packs, 4x Flamers, 4x Evicerators

Want:
Would love some Land Speeders
Fairly keen on a few suppressor conversions

Spoiler: Heavy Support

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[Heavy Support]
Have:
10x Devs, 4x Multi-melta, 4x Grav Cannon
3x Cents, NIB (from tourney prize. Would require extensive conversion to use, 'cause they're ugly)

Want:
Whirlwind, dunno why, but these have always been so cool, but so bad. Would really like one.
You could twist my arm into getting a Land Raider, though I have one for my IW and it's a pain 'cause it doesn't fit into any of my cases. Cool model though.
You could probably convince me to get a Predator, but it'd be a tough sell

Spoiler: Flyer

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[Flyer]
Have:
1x Stormraven
2x Stormtalons

Want:
Nil

Spoiler: Dedicated Transport

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[Dedicated Transport]
Have:
3x Drop Pods
1x Land Speed Storm, Heavy Flamer

Want:
Nil

Spoiler: Proto-list

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UM Successor
Hungry for Battle
Long-Range Marksmen/Stealthy/Tactical Withdrawl?
Battallion?
HQ
140 - Captain, Jump Pack, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer (this feels like a given, I want some to punch faces in and hand out a rr1 aura. Is it worth the points to upgrade to Chapter master?)
100'ish - Second HQ slot, do I take a Jump Chaplain, Terminator chaplain or Jump Lieutenant? Jump Lieutenant feels like the right answer here, but I want to field the Termie Chaplain.

Troops
100 - 5x Intercessors (Is the 5 points for a 30" krak missile worth it?)
100 - 5x Intercessors (5x Firstborn with Lascannon is 105 and brings some more anti tank)
100 - 5x Intercessors (Why does it feel like anything but stalker bolt rifles is a trap?)

Elites
270 - 6x Aggressors (big old blob of dakka that also has powerfists)
213 - 8x Vanguard Veterans (Relic Blade/Storm Shield Sarge, 2x Double Lightning Claws, 5x Power Weapon/Storm Shield)
215 - 5x Hammernators (this feels sub-optimal compared to the VV, but I guess the fatty damage on the hammers makes up for it a bit)

Fast Attack
?

Heavy Support
135 - 5x Devs, 4x Grav Cannons, Cherub (anti-marines)
175 - 5x Devs, 4x Multi Meltas, Cherub (anti big thing)

Transports
70 - Drop Pod (for the Devs to hide in)

~1628, so ~370 to fill in.
Supressors would add more anti-marine and IIRC, can cancel overwatch on stuff they hit?
Land Speeders would add more anti-chaff (or anti-vehcile if Typhoon), but is more vehicles worth it?
Do I switch to a Vanguard and drop the troops and simply meme on people with a full roster of elites because objectives are for nerds?
Do I add a command squad and throw a bunch of secondary points away an apoth and some more fighty stuff in with the Agressor blob?
Do I take at least 1 big block of bolt rifle intercessors for the shoot twice strat to help clear out chaff?
Do I option the auto-boltgun and pick up the chapter trait to advance and fire with no penalty and completely control the midfield?
Wot do?

Trying again as I apparently mis-spelled "Cheesegear, please tell me how to build my army list"

[snowblizz]

Honestly.... I'm kind of curious, how a tournament would go if you could say.... take a 3000 point 'army' but only field 1500-2000 points of it in any given game. Giving you the ability to swap out or tailor to a degree.

I've palyed in tournaments that allowed similar, but in smaller format, something like 250-500p. It was hell. A bigger list? Will never work.*


Every thing like this comes down to this: "will this eat up game time from the alloted 1,5 hrs (or whatever)". If the answer is "probably" then it's a bad idea. People are chronically unable to stick to the clock for games. Anything making it worse means the tournament experience deteriorates.

* YMMV for never and work ofc

[Cheesegear]

So, since Muhreens are good, and we can have games in store again, and I was getting some Marines Errant painted before I lost interest in 8th, and it appears that most of what I like is good, how do I Marines Errant these days?

Trying again as I apparently mis-spelled "Cheesegear, please tell me how to build my army list"

I've been busy.

Ranged Ultramarines? But let's check my Deathwatch books:
Combat Doctrine: Space-faring Chapters don't use Vehicles; Assault Squads and Devastators take the place of the more common Vehicles.
Solo Mode: N/A.
Squad Mode: Short-ranged firepower.
Defensive Stance; Heroic Intervene like a mofo.

Straight off the bat you could play Space Wolves?
...Wait, wait, wait...I can already see you foaming at the mouth with rabid rage at the very thought of it. But it is true that Space Wolves would fit Marines Errant best, mechanically. I already tried back in 6th Ed., to make Space Wolves work using non-Space Wolves models...It didn't work. However, now Vicky Warsuits exist and ThunderCav are no longer...As neccessary as they once were. And Space Wolves get Centurions now. Could very easily go back to my 6th Ed. project of making Imperial Fist Long Fang spam.

(It just frustrates me that my dream of uniting an army of Imperial Fists and non-furry Space Wolves in an edition where both Factions are playable [including making a Space Wolf army without furries is actually doable], but the edition [or at least Astartes armies] strongly discourage allies.)

But, in canon, it's just that Ultramarines - and especially Ultramarine Successors - strongly discourage running Melee Marines. But let's see what we've got:
Chaplains - Of course.
Standard of Macragge Inviolate - Ultramarines only. Core units within 6" gain +1 Attack.
Reliquary of Vengeance - SIW. Once per game, Core and Characters within 6" gain +1 Attack.

I'm going to assume that you're in a reasonably competitive meta, and as such Specialist Detachments are banned, as per competitive rules. But, if they're not...Bust out your Vigilus book and run the Victrix Guard Detachment and play exactly how the book clearly tells you you should.

But, that said, I'm going to assume that you're serious. And you legit want to play an Ultramarines Successor, and leave all the Named Characters on the table.
First, what's your list?

Spoiler: Allegedly, not garbage

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Ultramarines Successor, Battalion
Hungry for Battle, Master Artisans

Captain; Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Jump Pack - 140 Points
Chaplain; Power Fist, Jump Pack, Canticle of Hate - 115 Points

Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, AGL, Chainsword - 105 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, AGL, Chainsword - 105 Points
Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Chainsword - 100 Points

Aggressors (x5); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers - 225 Points
Company Veterans (x5); Power Swords (x5), Storm Shields (x5) - 135 Points
Terminator Assaults (x5); Thunder Hammers (x5), Storm Shields (x5) - 215 Points

Devastators (x5); Grav-Cannons (x4), Boltgun & Chainsword, Armorium Cherub - 135 Points
Devastators (x5); Multi-Meltas (x4), Boltgun & Chainsword, Armorium Cherub - 175 Points

Drop Pod - 70 Points

Total: 1520 Points

Welcome to 9th Ed.:
Captains no longer give themselves rr1 to hit, and that's where Master Artisans comes in.
Never ever take units of 6+ if you don't have to. You're Space Marines. So you don't have to.
Currently, you should be trying to convert the sixth Aggressor from the box into a Heavy Bolter Gravis Captain. Then again, the Heavy Intercessor kit is surely coming at some point, and then where will you be?

213 - 8x Vanguard Veterans (Relic Blade/Storm Shield Sarge, 2x Double Lightning Claws, 5x Power Weapon/Storm Shield)

By my count, this squad is 243, minimum. Without Jump Packs. I assume that they don't have Jump Packs...Partly because they're way undercosted if they do, and also you haven't written it. So you can at least use them as Company Veterans.

There are a lot of things missing from that list.

Spoiler: Garbage fires

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Have List
Terminator Chaplains
Telion

Tactical Marines

Scouts with Rifles

Way too many Assault Marines

Centurions

Astartes Stom Wing (<3)

Extra Drop Pods.

Mostly terrible. Stormtalons are good. Let's see what you're at least willing to buy, though.

Want List
Primaris Lieutenant
Lieutenant with Jump Pack

Ancient

Land Speeders
Supressors

Whirlwind
Land Raider
Predator

Some of that, is actually worth having!

So...Stuff that's missing.
You're missing a re-roll Charge Aura.
You're definitely missing an Ancient.
Those Aggressors could do with an Apothecary.

(W) Chapter Champion; Martial Exemplar - 80 Points
Company Ancient; Boltgun, The Primarch's Wrath - 75 Points
Apothecary - 75 Points

But how to land the Bodyguard onto your two Jump Pack'd Characters?

Drop Pod - 70 Points

Now, lastly, we need our shots and goggles.

Land Speeder - 60 Points
Whirlwind; Whirlwind Vengeance Launcher - 135 Points

Total: 2015 Points...****.
Lose one of those Company Veterans for -27 Points, for 1988.
Give each Devastator Sergeant a Storm Bolter, or an Intercessor Sergeant, a Power Fist.
1998 Points.

Spoiler: Marines Errant

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Ultramarines Successor, Battalion
Hungry for Battle, Master Artisans

Captain; Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Jump Pack - 140 Points (CS)
Chaplain; Power Fist, Jump Pack, Canticle of Hate - 115 Points

Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, AGL, Chainsword - 105 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, AGL, Chainsword - 105 Points
Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Chainsword - 100 Points

(W, CS) Chapter Champion; Martial Exemplar - 80 Points
(CS) Apothecary - 75 Points
(CS) Company Ancient; Boltgun, The Primarch's Wrath - 75 Points
(CS) Company Veterans (x4); Power Swords (x4), Storm Shields (x4) - 108 Points

Terminator Assaults (x5); Thunder Hammers (x5), Storm Shields (x5) - 215 Points
Aggressors (x5); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers - 225 Points

Land Speeder - 60 Points

Devastators (x5); Grav-Cannons (x4), Boltgun & Chainsword, Armorium Cherub - 135 Points Storm Bolter?
Devastators (x5); Multi-Meltas (x4), Boltgun & Chainsword, Armorium Cherub - 175 Points Storm Bolter?
Whirlwind; Whirlwind Vengeance Launcher - 135 Points

Drop Pod - 70 Points
Drop Pod - 70 Points

Total: 1988 Points | 12 CPs

Didn't even use any CPs yet. Baller.
Relic of the Chapter; Give your Chapter Champion The Burning Blade or The Shield Eternal. My pick is the latter, since it's your Warlord.
Hero of the Chapter; Give your Captain The Imperium's Sword. I guess at this point you can choose who your actual Warlord is, and whoever that is, Shield Eternal them. Actually, given the size of the points, you could spend another CP to Burning Blade your Champion, and Shield Eternal your Captain.
Exemplar of the Chapter; Bonus Warlord Trait, every time you spend a CP, roll a 5+ to regen for the Round.

-3 | 9 CPs.

I still think you're missing out on Sanctic Halo, 'cause your list has no Librarians, which saves you points by not having to buy a Storm Shield. But if you don't play actual Ultramarines, that's another CP to get that, too. Freeing up another 10 Points and you can put that Veteran back in.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

*Reads Cheesegear's Blood Angels analysis*

Ah.

I see I picked a great time to finally decide that my Space Marines will be Flesh Tearers.

Well, I mean I'm basically building an army to lose out of scraps anyways so

[Drasius]

I've been busy.

Thanks cheese, much appreciated.

Not sure how I screwed up those vv costs so bad, but yeah, they've all got jp's, 'cause duh, of course they do.

If I'm throwing 5 vets and 3 bodyguards in a pod to get dumped on top of the chaplain and captain, do I save a bunch of points and just throw the characters in there too sans jp's, or do I leave as is to get the chaplains aura cranking turn 1 and have them still able to move around at a decent clip once they finish mulching their first target?

Feels a bit underdone on anti-tank?

[Cheesegear]

*Reads Cheesegear's Blood Angels analysis*
Ah.
I see I picked a great time to finally decide that my Space Marines will be Flesh Tearers.

I haven't done a Blood Angels' analysis...Partly because Blood Angels aren't out yet.

However, as a Successor Chapter, I already know that Flesh Tearers will have less choices than Blood Angels proper, and that the best way to play Flesh Tearers will be to convert Gabriel Seth's model to have a Jump Pack, and call it a Captain/Chapter Master with Teeth of Terra (because Blood Angels get that now, and it's really good), and tell your opponent that no actually, despite what the paint scheme tells you, they are actually Blood Angels.

In case people forget; My preferences, in order:
1. Drukhari
2. Imperial Fists (I maintain that they should be the 'default' Space Marines, not Ultramarines)
3. Deathwatch (If not, Deathwatch should be the 'default' Space Marines, 'cause they're the only thing that makes sense in a Galaxy of War)
4. Flesh Tearers
5. Non-Furry Space Wolves (rare as they are in the fluff)

If I'm throwing 5 vets and 3 bodyguards in a pod to get dumped on top of the chaplain and captain, do I save a bunch of points and just throw the characters in there too sans jp's, or do I leave as is to get the chaplains aura cranking turn 1 and have them still able to move around at a decent clip once they finish mulching their first target?

Well, you're 9" away;
+1 from Hungry for Battle
Re-roll from Martial Exemplar

Chaplain can hand out +2 to Charge, as well, but only if he's on the board, or you can pay 2 CPs. Do you need his Aura at all? Are you willing to pay 2 CPs for it?

Feels a bit underdone on anti-tank?

Because you started from a position of a Melee Ultramarines Successor (so no Calgar and Victrix Guard in an Impulsor), and then filled your core Roster with expensive units like Aggressors and Terminators that wont do anything until Turn 2?

Also, it's 9th Ed., not 5th or 7th. If your opponent has more than three 'Heavy' Vehicles, they're doing themselves a disservice, and got lucky with you as their match-up.

[Squark]

Also, it's 9th Ed., not 5th or 7th. If your opponent has more than three 'Heavy' Vehicles, they're doing themselves a disservice, and got lucky with you as their match-up.

I understand what you're saying, but it bears pointing out that the 'heavy' vehicles you're referring to include things like Impulsors and Whirlwinds, which those who don't have the most relevant secondaries at least somewhat memorized may not realize.

(For those still not following, taking more than 3 vehicles with 11 or more wounds is very, very risky)

[Cheesegear]

Secondary Objectives (Core)
From the Grand Tournament Mission Pack

Spoiler

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Source: Goonhammer, October 2020.
However, caveat, the data sample is 'everyone, including newbs and noobs who we shouldn't take into account', not just 'the good players who know what they're doing who are the only people we should actually care about.'

Remember, the '%Max' (second table) is also a function of the '%Players' (first table) of the people who took it in the first place. You can't take the lower table in a vacuum.
Of the 1% who took Pierce the Veil, 38% of them scored max points. But the average points scored off of it was 6.3...Except the minimum for PtV is 8.
So, maybe, just maybe, when you're looking at Objectives where the VPs gained is fixed, average doesn't work. What you really need is the 'mode.'

The above tables are heavily flawed, and require significant interpretation.
But they can be used to spot trends in the meta;
Such as Deploy Scramblers is very easy, and having units in your army that can perform Actions without being missed is something you do need to think about. Engage on all Fronts is incredibly easy to score highly with, even if you don't score max.

Battlefield Supremacy
Engage on all Fronts. End of Turn (2/3). Have units wholly within each table quarter, and away from the middle of the board. Very easy Objective. However often comes at the cost of destroying your opponent's models (e.g; Advancing instead of Shooting, Charging a unit you may not want to Charge, just to get that sweet VP), it also gives up control of the 'middle' of the board, which is often a Primary Objective in many Missions. Very strong in early game, but tends to fizzle in the late game. But an almost guaranteed 9 VPs (e.g; Max points for 3 Turns) is pretty good.

Linebreaker. End of Turn (4). If two of your units are wholly within your opponent's DZ, gain VPs. Good for one turn, maybe two (i.e; Turns 1 and 2). It's not often that your opponent will just let you hang out in their DZ for any amount of turns. Another Objective that seems easy, unless your opponent isn't made of straw.

Domination. End of Turn (3). Another low-scoring Objective because just 'cause you can do it for one, maybe two turns...If you calculate that, that's only 6 VPs. Your opponent isn't just going to let you have half the Objectives on the board. Engage on all Fronts is Just Easier.

No Mercy, No Respite
Thin Their Ranks. Progressive (1). "Why are Orks so strong?" ("Why can't other armies do what Orks can do?" Shut up. Say 'Hordes are good and you suck for complaining. Gitgud scrub.' and stop asking questions), "What is a Meta-Buster?" 1VP for each 10 models you destroy - Models with 10+ wounds, give a VP, each. This Secondary is arguably why the meta revolves around non-Monster, non-Vehicle units (more on this, below), with <10 Wounds (e.g; Custodes, Terminators, Meganobz, etc.). The existence of his Secondary has most horde players shaking in their boots, 'cause it's a guaranteed win. However, non-horde players know that horde-players know this, and so hordes obviously wont be part of the meta, 'cause what's actually the point? This means that Orks get to play the third negative; I know that you know that I wont play a horde...So I will. The vast majority of the meta isn't actually taking enough bullets to make this Secondary work the way it should, even when faced against Orks, because no-one thinks they need to take enough bullets.
"What about how Kustom For-" *Gets tackled and beaten in the parking lot.*

Grind Them Down. End of Round (3). "Kill More." Often reliant on your opponent being made of straw. How can you guarantee that your opponent sucks hard enough to make this worthwhile?

While We Stand, We Fight. (5/10/15). Pick out the highest-costing units in your army. Hold them in Reinforcements and/or behind Terrain and don't let them die. Gain 5 VPs for each of your three units that isn't dead. Telegraphs to your opponent how to basically negate one of your Secondaries. Not a good pick.

Purge the Enemy
Titan Hunter. (10/12/15). Destroy 1/2/3 enemy TITANIC models. You wont need it often. But when you do, how do you not score points? One of the reasons that Titans dropped out of 9e is because at minimum, you've potentially just handed your opponent a free 10 VPs before the game's even started.

Bring it Down. Progressive (2/3). Destroy enemy VEHICLES and MONSTERS, models with 11+ Wounds count as 3 VPs. One of the 'pro strats' of this Secondary, is that it doesn't compete with Thin Their Ranks (above), and, not only did you get 3 VPs from this Objective, but, if the model has 11+ Wounds, it gives another VP off of Thin Their Ranks for being a model with 10+ Wounds. Each 'Heavy' Vehicle is potentially worth 4 VPs to your opponent. That's a big problem. That being said, flooding the board with light, 'easy to destroy' Vehicles is also giving your opponent free VPs...Unless you're taking 8+. Once you decide that you're giving your opponent a free Secondary, why not just take 8 Land Speeders and go all in? They still only max out at 15 VPs no matter how many you take. So take more than they can handle. Hence why when you play Orks you may as well just take 10 Mek Gunz and overload your opponent - they can't kill 'em all!
It's very obvious when you should take this Objective, and you will almost always score big off of it when you take it.

Cut Off the Head. (13/10/6/3/1). Destroy your opponent's Warlord as fast as possible. No, faster that that. Alpha strike hard as nails. When your opponent picks this, just put your Warlord in Reinforcements? If you're giving your opponent more than 6 VPs on this, it's your own fault. If your opponent isn't made of straw, you shouldn't be able to get this one, either.

Assassinate. Progressive (3). Destroy your opponent's CHARACTERS. This is much easier than going for your opponent's Warlord straight off the bat. You can target anything you want, whenever you want. Rather than a specific model, on Turn 1 only. Once again, this is a very counterable Objective. Just don't take Characters in your army. However, if you do, your opponent will take this Objective, and score pretty well off of it.
...and then the Astartes book came out with Bodyguard.

Spoiler: Kill Points

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Source; Goonhammer, October 2020.

Shadow Operations
Raise the Banners High. Start of your Next Turn. ...You don't even need to know what it is because you wont score it.

Investigate Sites. End of Turn (3). Perform an Action in the middle of the board. All's your opponent needs to do to stop this is to take control of the middle of the board. Another Secondary that you'll be lucky to get two turns out of.

Deploy Scramblers. (10). Do an Action once per turn (that finishes at the end of your turn), three times. Once in your DZ, once in your DZ, and once in 'No Man's Land'. You can perform this Action in non-consecutive turns. You can perform each of the three Actions with different units. It's an incredibly easy Secondary to do, that only requires removing one unit from your turn. MSU is a huge part of the meta, and 'losing' a unit's worth of stuff isn't that big of a deal. Very strong and reasonably easy Objective with a guaranteed 10 VPs every time. Probably why it's one of the most popular Secondaries to take.
(Compared to "I guarantee that I can destroy my opponent's 3 Characters...But that only nets me 6 VPs." which is actually kind of a bad Secondary.)

Teleport Homer. Start of your Next Turn. In your opponent's DZ? No. Take Linebreaker instead.

Warpcraft
Abhor the Witch. Progressive (5/3). Your army isn't allowed to have any PSYKERS in it. Gain VPs every time you destroy a PSYKERS. Very specific Secondary that you will rarely - if ever - pick. But, if you build your army to explicitly be able to use this Secondary, you will win big off of it every time you come up against somebody dumb with a lot of Psykers (e.g; Grey Knight MSU who have no other builds to run).

Mental Interrogation. End of Phase (3). An unpopular Secondary because it can only be done by PSYKERS, removes their Manifest for the phase, and they can still potentially - not likely, but they can - fail at it. Psykers are too valuable for that. Furthermore, if your opponent just destroys your Psyker on Turn 2, you get 3 VPs and you're done? ...Whoo. I love when my opponents aren't made of straw and just let my Psykers score VPs all game...Oh wait, that doesn't happen.

Psychic Ritual. (15). Your opponent says 'Absolutely not.'
(38% of 5% of players can score max. points with an average of 6.2 VPs, when the only scores are 0 or 15, with nothing in between. Good methodology.)

Pierce the Veil. (8/15) PSYKER CHARACTER that's within 6" of your opponent's board edge, and not within 6" of enemy models ('Unengaged' just doesn't cut it for some reason), can [Psychic Action] for the turn - and potentially fail at it, of course. Perform 2 or 4 times. How do you even make this happen once let alone twice...Let lone four times!?

Spoiler

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Sauce: The best kind.

[Drasius]

Well, you're 9" away;
+1 from Hungry for Battle
Re-roll from Martial Exemplar

Chaplain can hand out +2 to Charge, as well, but only if he's on the board, or you can pay 2 CPs. Do you need his Aura at all? Are you willing to pay 2 CPs for it?

Doesn't the chaplain's aura specifically not stack with other + to charge stuff?

Because you started from a position of a Melee Ultramarines Successor (so no Calgar and Victrix Guard in an Impulsor), and then filled your core Roster with expensive units like Aggressors and Terminators that wont do anything until Turn 2?

Also, it's 9th Ed., not 5th or 7th. If your opponent has more than three 'Heavy' Vehicles, they're doing themselves a disservice, and got lucky with you as their match-up.

I'm a bad, it's true.

But if termies are even remotely usable, well, if not now, then when do I use them?

[Cheesegear]

Doesn't the chaplain's aura specifically not stack with other + to charge stuff?

It doesn't. That's why I question whether or not you need it.
You have guaranteed +1 at all times.
You have +2 if the Chaplain doesn't fail. Is it worth it? Why not Librarian?

But if termies are even remotely usable, well, if not now, then when do I use them?

When you stop playing an Ultramarines Successor?

I feel like you might be going for:
Turn 1. Veterans out of Drop Pod.
Turn 2. Terminators out of Teleport Strike.
Turn 3. Aggressors have finally walked up the board because they're a shooty unit and not actually worth putting in Reserves 'cause then they don't shoot, so they walk.

IMO, you should go all in on one of those.
Having essentially three different Death Stars hitting on different turns - not even at the same time - with five associated Characters is...Well it's not an army build I would go with.

[Drasius]

It doesn't. That's why I question whether or not you need it.
You have guaranteed +1 at all times.
You have +2 if the Chaplain doesn't fail. Is it worth it? Why not Librarian?

I was actually thinking more about having the chaplain there for the aggressors T1 with +1 to wound or +1 to hit, so they could advance & shoot while also being there as support for the big blob of VV and Captain if they could charge T1, and/or start handing out re-rolls to the termies when they come down turn 2 ('cause hitting on 4's is for dorks). Alternately, by having the chaplain, there's always the option of not taking hungry for battle and gambling on your 66% chance (+/- command rr).

Also, a large amount of the point was to try and find a way to make the terminator chaplain model I love so much worth fielding. Sadly, as expected, he's pretty bad.

When you stop playing an Ultramarines Successor?

They're painted as Marines Errant, so Marines Errant they shall be. Why collect an army if you don't want to play them? Not all of us are as loose with our colour schemes as you mate. Might as well just run grey plastic if you're going to (sub) faction hop.

Still, sadly, I take your point. So, in what armies do Terminators become useful? How well/poorly do they come out against a similar loadout of VV who move twice as fast with one less wound?

I feel like you might be going for:
Turn 1. Veterans out of Drop Pod.
Turn 2. Terminators out of Teleport Strike.
Turn 3. Aggressors have finally walked up the board because they're a shooty unit and not actually worth putting in Reserves 'cause then they don't shoot, so they walk.

IMO, you should go all in on one of those.
Having essentially three different Death Stars hitting on different turns - not even at the same time - with five associated Characters is...Well it's not an army build I would go with.

As above, it was meant to be VV's and Smash Captain with jump packs running up the board and trying to make what I like = what isn't terrible around that. Would the list be better with 30 VV with power weapons/SS's and jump packs? Probably, and I'm more than happy to do so. Feels like ramming someone with 60x 2+/4++ wounds and 12" a turn movement wouldn't be the worst plan in the world, at which point, why am I not running BA, other than 'cause I want to stick to my paint scheme (and 'cause BA are almost as cringeworthy as SW lore-wise).

Do I be an absolute meme-lord and put a chapter master, 15x boltstorm aggressors and 30x shooty/asscannon terminators in a Vanguard and tell D2 weapons to go suck it during a slow but steady inexorable advance up the board?

How do I create an interesting list and not just spam stuff but still be effective?

[Cheesegear]

I was actually thinking more about having the chaplain there for the aggressors T1 with +1 to wound or +1 to hit, so they could advance & shoot while also being there as support for the big blob of VV and Captain if they could charge T1, and/or start handing out re-rolls to the termies when they come down turn 2 ('cause hitting on 4's is for dorks).

Remember you've got the core Stratagem that gives Terminators +1 to hit for 1CP anyway.

Also, a large amount of the point was to try and find a way to make the terminator chaplain model I love so much worth fielding. Sadly, as expected, he's pretty bad.

Terminator Chaplains have always been pretty bad, because Chaplains have a base 4+ Invulnerable anyway, and the way AP works post-8th Ed., good saves aren't really worth paying points for unless you don't have a choice. Terminator Chaplains work great in Grey Knights...But I know that that doesn't help you.

They're painted as Marines Errant, so Marines Errant they shall be.

I guess I didn't mean to be as blunt as that. My point was trying to be that as Ultramarines, you can't really afford three different Melee-Death Stars, because Ultramarines really doesn't support that kind of playstyle, because their Chapter and everything that makes them good, is based around Rapid Fire and Assault weapons, and their Stratagems reflect as much, too. Which I didn't think was failing of the system until right now.
"But...Just hear me out...What if someone does want to play Ultramarines like they were Black Templars?"
*GW Designer stares at the wall for five minutes...He doesn't see any stars.*

You would have a lot of success with Ultramarines Victrix Guard - the Specialist Detachment, not the unit. But GW hates anything they made more than a single year ago, and so anywhere who cares will likely ban it for no reason other than GW said so.

So, in what armies do Terminators become useful? How well/poorly do they come out against a similar loadout of VV who move twice as fast with one less wound?

Terminators are useful in every Chapter. They're one of the better units in the Codex - though not as good as Assault Centurions or Bladeguard. The problem, as I said, is stacking your list with Elites that don't really mesh together.

Spoiler: I Don't Know If This Helps

Show

Ultramarines Successor, Battalion
-2 CPs; Relic of the Chapter (x2)
-1 CP; Honoured by Macragge
-1 CP; Hero of the Chapter

Captain; Combi-Grav, Power Fist, Adept of the Codex, Sanctic Halo - 100 Points (Relic, Honoured, Hero)
Chaplain; Power Fist, Jump Pack, Canticle of Hate - 90 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Chainsword - 100 Points
Incursors (x5) - 105 Points
Infiltrators (x5) - 120 Points

Company Veterans (x5); Combi-Gravs (x4), Storm Shields (x5) - 160 Points
- (W) Chapter Champion; Martial Exemplar, The Shield Eternal - 80 Points
- Company Ancient; Boltgun, The Honour Vehement - 75 Points (Relic)
- Apothecary - 75 Points

Terminator Assaults (x5); Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields - 215 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Devastators (x5); Grav-Cannons (x4) - 130 Points
Devastators (x5); Grav-Cannons (x4) - 130 Points

Drop Pod - 70 Points
Drop Pod - 70 Points

Stormraven Gunship; Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon, Twin Multi-Melta - 330 Points

Total: 2000 Points | 8 CPs

Deployment
Concealed Positions units hopefully take premium positions on the board, with Omni-Scramblers hopefully screwing your opponent over just enough so that they can't 'Do a Thing' on Turn 1, if they go first.

Turn 1:
Chaplain Advances up the board (Hungry for Battle?)
Two Drop Pods come down on Turn 1; One has Captain, Champion and 5 Bodyguards, and lands on the Chaplain.
The other has 10 Devastators that land on the Captain.
Ideally, areas around your Concealed Positions units are uncluttered with enemy models.

Stormraven flies up and does Stormraven things. Inside is 5 Terminators, an Apothecary and an Ancient.

Charge phase...Whatever happens, happens.

Turn 2:
Terminators, Apothecary and Ancient all drop out of the Stormraven. Because these guys disembarked from a Vehicle, they're allowed to be as close as they want to the enemy, and as such aren't reliant on a Chaplain and/or Champion who are hopefully already deep in the enemy DZ and surrounded by enemy models.

As above, it was meant to be VV's and Smash Captain with jump packs running up the board and trying to make what I like = what isn't terrible around that.

If you're allowed to run Specialist Detachments, that's absolutely viable. If not, then it isn't...At least not with Ultramarines.

How do I create an interesting list and not just spam stuff but still be effective?

Easily.
What you can't do anymore (and I don't think you ever could) is make a list that doesn't mesh well together.
And in 9e, GW is taking away your choices by the bucketload. Play the game, the way they want you to play it. The Faction just wont be designed for that. Taking away choices is how GW keeps the game 'competitive'. That way there are no surprises and everything is 'balanced'.

Similar for Ultramarines. The Supplement is designed around Shooty Marines, with an emphasis on Rapid Fire and Assault weapons. If it were me, I'd build my list around Aggressors, and I'd be finding a way to make them faster with an Invulnerable save (e.g; Librarians). If they get into Melee, bonus. An Ultramarines' Smash Captain wouldn't even cross my mind because I'd be too busy thinking about Captains in Phobos Armour and Gravis Armour with a Heavy Bolt Rifle (which isn't out yet).

Turn 1 will always be a Space Marines' strongest turn, regardless of Chapter, because that's how the Devastator Doctrine just is.

With the caveat of just how the game works:
Turns 1 and 2 are your most important turns. Anything that you think 'will be good on Turn 3'...Wont be.

Finally, and this goes without saying. But I have to say it anyway.
GW are ****s. Their business model is invalidating what you already own (e.g; Remember just a year ago when Melee-Ultramarines was one of the few good Space Marine army lists you could even run because Space Marines were a dead Codex?).

Which means when a returning player rocks up and says "What can I do with stuff I already have?"
Potentially, nothing.
Set your expectations exactly to this point; "Everything new that you don't own, is good. Everything you currently own, is bad. What recession?"
How can you be mad when your expectations are so low to begin with?

But again, with how ****ed the global meta is (evidenced by how 'global trends' don't match high level tournament data at all "Well, globally the game isn't b0rked so you're wrong. Well, my casual/PUG scene is fine, which means yours is irrelevant. Who would ever want to use good rules on purpose? Everyone knows you're only allowed to use good rules by accident."), there is the guaranteed out of; "WELL IT DEPENDS ON YOUR META. JUST PLAY WHAT YOU WANT."
Except you and I both know that that isn't true. And it's even more true in 9th Ed., where GW doesn't want to let you play your army in a way that they didn't explicitly design.

Not that you can't do something. You can do whatever you want - including still use Tactical Marines! But if you don't do what GW tells you to do, you will be sub-optimal at best.

I'm genuinely wondering if, after the Blood Angels Supplement comes out, someone will say "How do I make shooty Blood Angels?"
(Someone put it on their calendar for BA release day, so you're reminded to meme it at me and make me mad)

[snowblizz]

I'm genuinely wondering if, after the Blood Angels Supplement comes out, someone will say "How do I make shooty Blood Angels?"
(Someone put it on their calendar for BA release day, so you're reminded to meme it at me and make me mad)

I swear there was a point around 3rd ed's long span where shooty Blood Angels made perfect sense. They got Baal Predators (that noone else could). Something something BA Dvastators I want to say but am losing details in haze of history.

[Cheesegear]

Also, while we're here. I've just now updated my Ultramarines list from 8th Ed., now that Scouts aren't Troops and everything is the bad times.

Ultramarines, Supreme Command
(W) Roboute Guilliman - 380 Points

Ultramarines, Battalion
Chief Librarian Tigurius - 135 Points
Chaplain; Power Fist - 90 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Chainsword - 100 Points
Infiltrators (x5); Helix Gauntlet - 130 Points
Incursors (x5); Haywire Mine - 115 Points
Because there was 20 Points left, and Helix Gauntlet & Haywire Mine is actually better than taking an Intercessor Squad to 6 models. I would never suggest you get them at the start of your list, though.

Apothecary - 75 Points
Primaris Ancient - 80 Points
Company Veterans (x5); Combi-Gravs (x5), Storm Shields (x5) - 170 Points
Aggressors (x5); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets (x10), Fragstorm Grenade Launchers (x5) - 225 Points

Supressors (x3) - 100 Points
Supressors (x3) - 100 Points
Bike Squad (x3); Meltaguns (x2), Combi-Melta - 120 Points

Eliminators (x3) - 90 Points
Eliminators (x3) - 90 Points

Total: 2000 Points | 15 CPs

Question for Drasius; Is this an 'interesting' list?

[Blackhawk748]

I swear there was a point around 3rd ed's long span where shooty Blood Angels made perfect sense. They got Baal Predators (that noone else could). Something something BA Dvastators I want to say but am losing details in haze of history.

I remember that in 5th BA played like Orks. Lots of hard hitting melee supported by big honking guns.

But ya, GW has gone from "Do whatever you want" that 8th seemed to be to "Do what we tell you" in 9th. It's not a good shift.

[Forum Explorer]

Shadow Operations
Raise the Banners High. Start of your Next Turn. ...You don't even need to know what it is because you wont score it.

It's actually hard to not score any points for Raise the Banners High. You don't score it until the start of your next turn, but the unit performing the action doesn't need to survive in order to score. So long as the enemy doesn't manage to control the objective, you score 1 point at the start of your turn until the game ends. So on missions with a lot of objectives, it's not hard to get 2 points a turn pretty re

[Cheesegear]

It's actually hard to not score any points for Raise the Banners High. You don't score it until the start of your next turn, but the unit performing the action doesn't need to survive in order to score. So long as the enemy doesn't manage to control the objective, you score 1 point at the start of your turn until the game ends.

I mentioned it in single sentence. But I guess I can respond here. It's not enough to score some points. What matters is the Objectives that can score you the most points, the easiest. It's why Engage on all Fronts and Deploy Scramblers are popular. Because they're easy. Scramblers gets you 10 VPs. Every time.

Same with Assassinate vs. non-Astartes players who don't stack their Elite slots with extra Characters; You can get 6VPs, probably easy, too. But, that said, it's 'only' (3x2) VPs. Is that even worth taking?

[Forum Explorer]

I mentioned it in single sentence. But I guess I can respond here. It's not enough to score some points. What matters is the Objectives that can score you the most points, the easiest. It's why Engage on all Fronts and Deploy Scramblers are popular. Because they're easy. Scramblers gets you 10 VPs. Every time.

Same with Assassinate vs. non-Astartes players who don't stack their Elite slots with extra Characters; You can get 6VPs, probably easy, too. But, that said, it's 'only' (3x2) VPs. Is that even worth taking?

Sometimes it's worth taking, sometimes not. On maps with more objectives, it can pretty reliably get you 2-3 points a turn, for a score that's around 8-12 points. That's pretty decent, particularly since it has the potential to actually hit the full 15. It also depends on the match up. If I'm playing Imperial Guard, and I'm going up against Custodes? Raise the Banners becomes a lot more appealing since my basic Guardsmen weren't going to do much damage anyways and Custodes don't typically give up a kill objective at all.

[Drasius]

Remember you've got the core Stratagem that gives Terminators +1 to hit for 1CP anyway.

Hitting on 3's is also for nerds. At least 3's with a reroll is moderately reliable.

Terminator Chaplains have always been pretty bad, because Chaplains have a base 4+ Invulnerable anyway, and the way AP works post-8th Ed., good saves aren't really worth paying points for unless you don't have a choice. Terminator Chaplains work great in Grey Knights...But I know that that doesn't help you.

Yeah, like I kinda expected. Oh well.

I guess I didn't mean to be as blunt as that.

Nah, I'd rather you just tell me that fluff is less important than crunch I'm being a bad, otherwise nothing will change.

My point was trying to be that as Ultramarines, you can't really afford three different Melee-Death Stars, because Ultramarines really doesn't support that kind of playstyle, because their Chapter and everything that makes them good, is based around Rapid Fire and Assault weapons, and their Stratagems reflect as much, too. Which I didn't think was failing of the system until right now.
"But...Just hear me out...What if someone does want to play Ultramarines like they were Black Templars?"
*GW Designer stares at the wall for five minutes...He doesn't see any stars.*

It's more trying to play Marines Errant as Marines Errant. No/limited vehicles, fair bit of CC from boarding action specialisation, bit of back-up coming from heavy weapon infantry here possible (suppressors/pod devs).

You would have a lot of success with Ultramarines Victrix Guard - the Specialist Detachment, not the unit. But GW hates anything they made more than a single year ago, and so anywhere who cares will likely ban it for no reason other than GW said so.

I have very little doubt that the detachment will be banned, so oh well, that ship has sailed.

Terminators are useful in every Chapter. They're one of the better units in the Codex - though not as good as Assault Centurions or Bladeguard. The problem, as I said, is stacking your list with Elites that don't really mesh together.

Spoiler: I Don't Know If This Helps

Show

Ultramarines Successor, Battalion
-2 CPs; Relic of the Chapter (x2)
-1 CP; Honoured by Macragge
-1 CP; Hero of the Chapter

Captain; Combi-Grav, Power Fist, Adept of the Codex, Sanctic Halo - 100 Points (Relic, Honoured, Hero)
Chaplain; Power Fist, Jump Pack, Canticle of Hate - 90 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Chainsword - 100 Points
Incursors (x5) - 105 Points
Infiltrators (x5) - 120 Points

Company Veterans (x5); Combi-Gravs (x4), Storm Shields (x5) - 160 Points
- (W) Chapter Champion; Martial Exemplar, The Shield Eternal - 80 Points
- Company Ancient; Boltgun, The Honour Vehement - 75 Points (Relic)
- Apothecary - 75 Points

Terminator Assaults (x5); Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields - 215 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Devastators (x5); Grav-Cannons (x4) - 130 Points
Devastators (x5); Grav-Cannons (x4) - 130 Points

Drop Pod - 70 Points
Drop Pod - 70 Points

Stormraven Gunship; Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon, Twin Multi-Melta - 330 Points

Total: 2000 Points | 8 CPs

Deployment
Concealed Positions units hopefully take premium positions on the board, with Omni-Scramblers hopefully screwing your opponent over just enough so that they can't 'Do a Thing' on Turn 1, if they go first.

Turn 1:
Chaplain Advances up the board (Hungry for Battle?)
Two Drop Pods come down on Turn 1; One has Captain, Champion and 5 Bodyguards, and lands on the Chaplain.
The other has 10 Devastators that land on the Captain.
Ideally, areas around your Concealed Positions units are uncluttered with enemy models.

Stormraven flies up and does Stormraven things. Inside is 5 Terminators, an Apothecary and an Ancient.

Charge phase...Whatever happens, happens.

Turn 2:
Terminators, Apothecary and Ancient all drop out of the Stormraven. Because these guys disembarked from a Vehicle, they're allowed to be as close as they want to the enemy, and as such aren't reliant on a Chaplain and/or Champion who are hopefully already deep in the enemy DZ and surrounded by enemy models.

If you're allowed to run Specialist Detachments, that's absolutely viable. If not, then it isn't...At least not with Ultramarines.

What's the difference between the above as a specialist detachment and using the spare points from the previous allegedly not garbage list to jam another pod and a storm raven in?

Easily.
What you can't do anymore (and I don't think you ever could) is make a list that doesn't mesh well together.
And in 9e, GW is taking away your choices by the bucketload. Play the game, the way they want you to play it. The Faction just wont be designed for that. Taking away choices is how GW keeps the game 'competitive'. That way there are no surprises and everything is 'balanced'.

I kind of figured that muhreens being op gave me at least a little leeway when facing not marines.

Similar for Ultramarines. The Supplement is designed around Shooty Marines, with an emphasis on Rapid Fire and Assault weapons. If it were me, I'd build my list around Aggressors, and I'd be finding a way to make them faster with an Invulnerable save (e.g; Librarians). If they get into Melee, bonus. An Ultramarines' Smash Captain wouldn't even cross my mind because I'd be too busy thinking about Captains in Phobos Armour and Gravis Armour with a Heavy Bolt Rifle (which isn't out yet).

See, running a bunch of Aggressors is fine by me, and I guess I could throw a libby in instead of a chaplain, but phobos armour, much like hitting on 4's, is for dorks.

Turn 1 will always be a Space Marines' strongest turn, regardless of Chapter, because that's how the Devastator Doctrine just is.

With the caveat of just how the game works:
Turns 1 and 2 are your most important turns. Anything that you think 'will be good on Turn 3'...Wont be.

Just play Iron Hands. Gotcha.

Finally, and this goes without saying. But I have to say it anyway.
GW are ****s. Their business model is invalidating what you already own (e.g; Remember just a year ago when Melee-Ultramarines was one of the few good Space Marine army lists you could even run because Space Marines were a dead Codex?).

Which means when a returning player rocks up and says "What can I do with stuff I already have?"
Potentially, nothing.
Set your expectations exactly to this point; "Everything new that you don't own, is good. Everything you currently own, is bad. What recession?"
How can you be mad when your expectations are so low to begin with?

But again, with how ****ed the global meta is (evidenced by how 'global trends' don't match high level tournament data at all "Well, globally the game isn't b0rked so you're wrong. Well, my casual/PUG scene is fine, which means yours is irrelevant. Who would ever want to use good rules on purpose? Everyone knows you're only allowed to use good rules by accident."), there is the guaranteed out of; "WELL IT DEPENDS ON YOUR META. JUST PLAY WHAT YOU WANT."
Except you and I both know that that isn't true. And it's even more true in 9th Ed., where GW doesn't want to let you play your army in a way that they didn't explicitly design.

Not that you can't do something. You can do whatever you want - including still use Tactical Marines! But if you don't do what GW tells you to do, you will be sub-optimal at best.

I'm not a poor, so I'm less concerned with "REEEEEEE! I have to buy new models to be good! REEEEEE!" and more with painting and using models I think are cool without gimping myself too hard.

I'm genuinely wondering if, after the Blood Angels Supplement comes out, someone will say "How do I make shooty Blood Angels?"
(Someone put it on their calendar for BA release day, so you're reminded to meme it at me and make me mad)

Weren't BA devs with frag cannons coming out of pods a thing for a while a few editions ago?

Also, while we're here. I've just now updated my Ultramarines list from 8th Ed., now that Scouts aren't Troops and everything is the bad times.

Ultramarines, Supreme Command
(W) Roboute Guilliman - 380 Points

Ultramarines, Battalion
Chief Librarian Tigurius - 135 Points
Chaplain; Power Fist - 90 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Chainsword - 100 Points
Infiltrators (x5); Helix Gauntlet - 130 Points
Incursors (x5); Haywire Mine - 115 Points
Because there was 20 Points left, and Helix Gauntlet & Haywire Mine is actually better than taking an Intercessor Squad to 6 models. I would never suggest you get them at the start of your list, though.

Apothecary - 75 Points
Primaris Ancient - 80 Points
Company Veterans (x5); Combi-Gravs (x5), Storm Shields (x5) - 170 Points
Aggressors (x5); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets (x10), Fragstorm Grenade Launchers (x5) - 225 Points

Supressors (x3) - 100 Points
Supressors (x3) - 100 Points
Bike Squad (x3); Meltaguns (x2), Combi-Melta - 120 Points

Eliminators (x3) - 90 Points
Eliminators (x3) - 90 Points

Total: 2000 Points | 15 CPs

Question for Drasius; Is this an 'interesting' list?

I mean, it's not blatant spam, but it is a boring shooty castle, albeit with limited melee deterrent.

Thanks again Cheese, you've given me a bunch of improvement and some good things to think about.

Cheers

[Cheesegear]

It's more trying to play Marines Errant as Marines Errant. No/limited vehicles, fair bit of CC from boarding action specialisation, bit of back-up coming from heavy weapon infantry here possible (suppressors/pod devs).

Then I strongly suggest looking at Salamanders and Space Wolves.

I kind of figured that muhreens being op gave me at least a little leeway when facing not marines.

It does. However, the current meta being as it is, I have my doubts as to whether or not you'll consistently face Marines and Marine-like armies.
(Sororitas aren't Space Marines, therefore, anyone complaining about Space Marines is wrong, because look at Sororitas being good.)

See, running a bunch of Aggressors is fine by me, and I guess I could throw a libby in instead of a chaplain...

But that's not what you said.

Just play Iron Hands. Gotcha.

Welcome to 8th Ed.
Salamanders are the Chapter to play now. Incidentally, they're one of the Chapters who use Terminators really well.

more with painting and using models I think are cool without gimping myself too hard.

As I said; Currently, if you 'like' more than one or two units, your army isn't likely to work well with itself. Especially if you start jamming in all the units you 'like' which also happen to be some of the most expensive units in the book.

Weren't BA devs with frag cannons coming out of pods a thing for a while a few editions ago?

I only remember Dreadnoughts having Frag Cannons and riding in Drop Pods. But I could be wrong.
(Hey kids, remember when Dreadnoughts could ride in Drop Pods!?)
It was Deathwatch who had Frag Cannons on Infantry.

I mean, it's not blatant spam, but it is a boring shooty castle, albeit with limited melee deterrent.

But it's a moving castle.
I don't know what 'interesting' or 'fun' lists are, because those terms are so subjective that I don't even know where to start. I like Troops with Concealed Positions. I like that Suppressors pretty good, especially with the Stratagem that lets them count as not moving. I like that Tigurius can give -1 to hit and an Invulnerable save onto the Aggressors. I like that the Company Veterans prevent Guilliman from being shot at as I try and get him into Melee. I like that my Bikes can get Engage on all Fronts easily. I like that the Apothecary gives everyone - except Guilliman - Ignore Wounds (6+).

I like my list. I think it does a lot of cool things that make it interesting to play. But then you claim it's a 'boring castle', and I don't even know what you're talking about.
What is fun?
What is interesting?
I don't know.
...I know what I like and how I want to play. But how is that even helpful?

And of course I love my 'Ultramarines'.

Spoiler: Remember

Show

[IMG][/IMG]

[LeSwordfish]

I've got a long weekend for my birthday this weekend and nothing much to do for it - but I did get a chance to update the grand muster of my Imperial Guard army.

Spoiler

Show

Notable by their absence: my Thunderbolt (was decorating my desk at work before lockdown), my Knight (old paint job that doesn't stand up). Much as there's things I would love to add to this (A hydra! Artillery! Another heavy weapons squad) I think this is a pretty good time to call it done, while it still mostly fits in one case.

[Avaris]

I'm still reading through it, but I thought people here might be interested in Goonhammer's latest tier analysis: https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhamme...november-2020/

Tier 1
Harlequins =
Daemons ⇑
Sisters of Battle ⇑
Dark Angels ⇑⇑
White Scars =
Ultramarines ⇑⇑
Chaos Soup =

Tier 2
AdMech =*
Custodes ⇓*
Orks =
Necrons ⇑⇑⇑
Raven Guard ⇑
Salamanders ⇓
Iron Hands ⇓
Blood Angels ⇑
Space Wolves ⇑
Deathwatch ⇑⇑
Black Templars ⇑

Tier 3
Death Guard ⇓⇓*
Genestealer Cults ⇑
Tyranids ⇑
Imperial Fists ⇓
Imperial Knights ⇑

Tier 4
Chaos Space Marines ⇓*
Grey Knights ⇓*
Drukhari ⇓
Astra Militarum =
Chaos Knights =*

Trash Tier
Craftworlds ⇓⇓*
Thousand Sons ⇓
Tau =

I'd be particularly interested to hear any points of disagreement with this!

[Brookshw]

I'm still reading through it, but I thought people here might be interested in Goonhammer's latest tier analysis: https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhamme...november-2020/



I'd be particularly interested to hear any points of disagreement with this!

Does the Dhukari rank take into account their new codex?

[LansXero]

The new codex due in January '21? Unlikely.

Also, Craftworld being trash tier shouldn't be an addition, they were trash tier the second the 'no more -hit stacking' was announced; the point costs and other changes just turned them from fancy, recyclable trash into stinky, even-racoons-dont-want-this trash.

[Cheesegear]

I'd be particularly interested to hear any points of disagreement with this!

This is massively different to what WarCom posted. But I fixed it.

1: Harlequins, Daemons, Sororitas, Space Marines, Space Marines, Space Marines, Chaos Soup*
2: AdMech, Custodes, Orks, Necrons, Space Marines, Space Marines, Space Marines, Space Marines, Space Marines, Space Marines

Stats people need to treat Space Marines as separate Factions so it doesn't look as bad as it is. The more they keep doing it, the more blatantly obvious it becomes. I find it baffling that Imperial Fists are in Tier 3, except for the fact that I know at least one of the writers at Goonhammer is massively butthurt about the nerf. I understand the butthurtness. I get it. But being so butthurt that you now treat the Subfaction as 'bad' when Imperial Fists are still Space Marines and still have the same toolbox as all the other Chapters.

I've been winning games vs. Harlequins and Custodes and Daemons, fairly convincingly with my Fists. Because it doesn't matter what Chapter you play because all Chapters have access to exactly the same base units. Good units are good, no matter what Chapter you play. Be less butthurt. But you wouldn't have to be butthurt if you treated Space Marines as Space Marines. If you want to make a Tier List, and put 'Space Marines' in Tier 1, and then you want to make a separate Tier List that only includes Space Marine SubFactions, and put Imperial Fists on the bottom of that Tier, I'd agree with that. But to put Imperial Fists on par with Tyranids and GsCs!? Your butthurt is showing pretty badly.

*I find it very interesting that they don't define what Chaos Soup is. Probably so they can **** on Codecies later. But it's Death Guard or Thousand Sons, combined with Daemons (i.e; Daemons and moar Space Marines in the same army)

Finally, we're still waiting on GW to give other Astartes Factions (Chaos and Grey Knights) +1 Wound.

It also baffles me that Goonhammer wrote such a long article, but I guess they have to keep employed.
"Do you have Invulnerable saves? Do you have Ignore Wounds? Do you have multiple wounds? Good job you did it."
In a few (short) sentences I wrote Goonhammer's entire article.

[Renegade Paladin]

Does the Dhukari rank take into account their new codex?

It can't; games haven't been played with it since it isn't released.

[Drasius]

Then I strongly suggest looking at Salamanders and Space Wolves.

I refuse to play woofs, even as counts as. Not really sure what salamanders brings to the table that another chapter doesn't.

But that's not what you said.

I like Aggressors, if my list is less bad for running more of them, that's not a problem. The librarian is a bit iffy, as none of the models are great (IMHO), and I would have liked to try out something different (I run Thousand Sons and Tz Daemons, I've got enough psychers thanks). I had a look at what one would bring to the list and am not really sure what you're seeing as they look like hot garbage to me.

Welcome to 8th Ed.
Salamanders are the Chapter to play now. Incidentally, they're one of the Chapters who use Terminators really well.

But why? -1 AP against -1 AP hits literally won't do anything to TH/SS termies anyway, and re-rolling 1 hit and wound, while not nothing, is also pretty naff compared to some of the other boons out there. Again, what am I missing? DO they have some super rad stratagem or something?

As I said; Currently, if you 'like' more than one or two units, your army isn't likely to work well with itself. Especially if you start jamming in all the units you 'like' which also happen to be some of the most expensive units in the book.

I'd be willing to build an army around almost any of what I think is cool. That's basically how I build most of my armies, and why most of them are barely suitable for casual/competitive matches let alone anything else.

But it's a moving castle.
I don't know what 'interesting' or 'fun' lists are, because those terms are so subjective that I don't even know where to start. I like Troops with Concealed Positions. I like that Suppressors pretty good, especially with the Stratagem that lets them count as not moving. I like that Tigurius can give -1 to hit and an Invulnerable save onto the Aggressors. I like that the Company Veterans prevent Guilliman from being shot at as I try and get him into Melee. I like that my Bikes can get Engage on all Fronts easily. I like that the Apothecary gives everyone - except Guilliman - Ignore Wounds (6+).

Ultramarines, Supreme Command
(W) Roboute Guilliman - 380 Points - is an aura that discourages charges.

Ultramarines, Battalion
Chief Librarian Tigurius - 135 Points - is a buff-bot, doesn't really move
Chaplain; Power Fist - 90 Points - 66% chance for a +1 to wound buff, doesn't really move

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Chainsword - 100 Points - heavy weapon, doesn't want to move
Infiltrators (x5); Helix Gauntlet - 130 Points don't know what these are, but they sound like primaris bolter scouts so they probably camp cover and don't move.
Incursors (x5); Haywire Mine - 115 Points - as above, no idea what these are
Because there was 20 Points left, and Helix Gauntlet & Haywire Mine is actually better than taking an Intercessor Squad to 6 models. I would never suggest you get them at the start of your list, though.

Apothecary - 75 Points - an aura for a castle
Primaris Ancient - 80 Points - another aura for a castle
Company Veterans (x5); Combi-Gravs (x5), Storm Shields (x5) - 170 Points - bodyguards for auras, who also probably don't move much
Aggressors (x5); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets (x10), Fragstorm Grenade Launchers (x5) - 225 Points - Given the rest of the list, these look like charge deterrent more than melee threat. Buffed with enough bonuses to hit, to wound and re-rolls, they're probably pretty deadly to anything you point 'em at.

Supressors (x3) - 100 Points - heavy weapons, don't want to move
Supressors (x3) - 100 Points - as above
Bike Squad (x3); Meltaguns (x2), Combi-Melta - 120 Points - for scoring certain secondaries I assume

Eliminators (x3) - 90 Points - heavy weapons, don't want to move
Eliminators (x3) - 90 Points - as above.


Now, you're stationary bar the aggressors on at least t1, then, I guess you can move about if ultras still get the ability to move without penalty in tac doctrine, but I might be mis-remembering stuff from 8th. It's still the same "jam everything into aura range" marine castle that I've seen variations of a bunch of times (because it works). It's a well put together list, don't get me wrong, but it's just another generic blob of lots of shots, nothing else matters 'cause they've got lots of buffs on 'em.

You're going to blow people off the table T1 and 2 and then you've won or lost by then depending on who took out the others lynchpin first. There's no maneuver, there's no tactics, it's all done before you even roll for deployment. Like someone said ages ago, you could probably sit down with your opponents, trade lists and mathhammer out who wins without even setting up any models, shake hands and save a lot of time.

[Squark]

I refuse to play woofs, even as counts as. Not really sure what salamanders brings to the table that another chapter doesn't.

But why? -1 AP against -1 AP hits literally won't do anything to TH/SS termies anyway, and re-rolling 1 hit and wound, while not nothing, is also pretty naff compared to some of the other boons out there. Again, what am I missing? DO they have some super rad stratagem ?

Stength of the Primarch (1 CP) gives a unit +1 Strength, and unmodified wound rolls of 6 do double damage.

[Cheesegear]

I refuse to play woofs, even as counts as. Not really sure what salamanders brings to the table that another chapter doesn't.

Terminators with the Obsidian Aquila are a joke. Obsidian Aquila is available to Successors.
Self-Sacrifice Stratagem is just...Real terrible. Since now Terminators can Bodyguard for any unit they want.

If you want Terminators...Salamanders have the tankiest ones, and also they can tank hits for other units. It's a big deal.

DO [Salamanders] have some super rad stratagem or something?

Yes. They're the best Space Marines in the game right now.
Iron Hands got nerfed. Vehicles got nerfed.
Durable Infantry is for winners...And that's Salamanders.

(W) Roboute Guilliman - 380 Points - is an aura that discourages charges.

Discourages me? Or my opponent?

Chief Librarian Tigurius - 135 Points - is a buff-bot, doesn't really move
Chaplain; Power Fist - 90 Points - 66% chance for a +1 to wound buff, doesn't really move

Literally no idea what you're talking about since their job is to move with the castle.

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Chainsword - 100 Points - heavy weapon, doesn't want to move

...Something shouldn't. I have Objectives in my own DZ, you know?

Infiltrators (x5); Helix Gauntlet - 130 Points don't know what these are, but they sound like primaris bolter scouts so they probably camp cover and don't move.
Incursors (x5); Haywire Mine - 115 Points - as above, no idea what these are

Infiltrators gain you board control whilst denying it to your opponent.
Incursors are a guaranteed Turn 1 Charge in the Troops slot. They don't really do any damage. But they're not really supposed to.

Apothecary - 75 Points - an aura for a castle
Primaris Ancient - 80 Points - another aura for a castle
Company Veterans (x5); Combi-Gravs (x5), Storm Shields (x5) - 170 Points - bodyguards for auras, who also probably don't move much

'Probably' don't move much?
So what you're saying is you don't know how the list works and you're just assuming it's a static castle even though Ultramarines are designed around Rapid Fire and Assault weapons, explicitly being an army about mobile firepower? And there's no point in taking Guilliman if you aren't trying to get him into Melee. Since there are way cheaper ways to get his Auras.

Aggressors (x5); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets (x10), Fragstorm Grenade Launchers (x5) - 225 Points - Given the rest of the list, these look like charge deterrent more than melee threat. Buffed with enough bonuses to hit, to wound and re-rolls, they're probably pretty deadly to anything you point 'em at.

Correct. Their short range means that they have to move.

Supressors (x3) - 100 Points - heavy weapons, don't want to move
Supressors (x3) - 100 Points - as above
Bike Squad (x3); Meltaguns (x2), Combi-Melta - 120 Points - for scoring certain secondaries I assume

They're all for scoring Secondaries. That's basically what Fast Attack is for in 9th Ed. Engage on All Fronts or Deploy Scramblers, if your list can't do one or both of those things, you're just...Losing ways to win.
You know the Ultramarines-only Stratagem that says a unit doesn't count as moving, and makes Ultramarines-specific Suppressors really good?

Eliminators (x3) - 90 Points - heavy weapons, don't want to move
Eliminators (x3) - 90 Points - as above.

Something, something board control.

Now, you're stationary bar the aggressors on at least t1

Intercessors and the two units of Eliminators are the only stationary units.

It's still the same "jam everything into aura range" marine castle that I've seen variations of a bunch of times (because it works).

Well...Yes...Because that's every army in 9th Ed.

but it's just another generic blob of lots of shots, nothing else matters 'cause they've got lots of buffs on 'em.

As opposed to giving a whole bunch of units buffs to Charges and number of Attacks being different because it's Melee?

'Tactics' in 9th Ed., is reading your opponent's army list, and choosing the right Secondaries (and list-building).
Once you've chosen your Secondaries, the vast majority of 'Tactics' is done. All's that's left is deploying to the terrain. But if you're in a meta where 'tournament terrain' is a general style, terrain is roughly going to be the same on every table regardless, so even deployment becomes elementary.

There's no maneuver, there's no tactics, it's all done before you even roll for deployment...

You've just described 9th Ed., not just my list that is designed for 9th in 9th's environment.
The reason that competitive 40K is dying, isn't because of COVID. It's because 9th Ed.'s meta was already stale in the first month. The 'Space Marine Shuffle' hasn't done anything except put Salamanders on top, because Durable Infantry is better than Durable Vehicles. But otherwise nothing has changed. Especially if you're used to playing ITC. "Choose how you win." ...Don't choose wrong. Better. You can build your army before you even start, to specifically play better, for the Objectives that you've chosen to win with.

A game is played around its win conditions.

Casual players are now competitive players. Because what's good is so black and white now that even noobs and newbs can tell what's good and what isn't. Don't think outside the box. There's no point because the game isn't designed that way anymore. Play how the designers want the Faction to be played.

Welcome to 5th I mean 9th Ed.

Honestly, I know where you're at. I've been saying it myself. If Drukhari doesn't knock it out of the park, or there aren't drastic changes to the MSU meta, I'm likely to quit 40K sometime in 2021.